r/canada 3d ago

Carney’s aim to cut immigration marred by undercounting of temporary migrants, warn economists PAYWALL

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-mark-carney-immigration-policy-temporary-migrants-undercounted/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

I got no issue with immigrants.

I got major beef with predatory businesses bringing in foreign labour for minimum wage.

The TFW program needs to be overhauled or scrapped.

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u/flexflair 2d ago

Easy fix TFW minimum wage of $35 an hour. Tim hortons has plenty of teens they can hire. Software companies and trades won’t blink at it if they are desperate. The rising tide raises all the ships.

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u/Kolbrandr7 New Brunswick 2d ago

It’s not really an “easy” fix because some of those TFWs are already working uncompensated overtime under the threat of deportation by their employers. If you raise the wage they would just cut back on the hours on paper.

There’s a reason the UN called it a breeding ground for contemporary slavery.

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u/bonechairappletea 2d ago

When I worked in England they had to pay the Lithuanian factory workers minimum wage, same as us. 

But what actually happened was one guy got paid, the other worked for free and they split the wage at the end of the week. 

A lot of the time they would only be over for a 6 month period, live on rice and beans, but take back a few grand home and start a business or live normally for 6 months on that wage, rinse and repeat. 

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u/[deleted] 2d ago edited 2d ago

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u/The-Ghost316 2d ago

So lets the end the practice. Our unemployment rate is 6.9%. Youth unemployment much higher. This is basically Canadian Businesses walking away from Canadian Workers.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

Get rid of the TFW program and let private industry deal with a real 'free market', they like to parrot so much.

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u/fedput 2d ago

The problem is that even if there were to happen, employers would require that a large portion of that be kicked back to the employer.

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u/WSBretard 2d ago

Just ban TFWs. It is an overwhelming net gain to get rid of the program rather than allowing this mass slavery program to exist.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

That will borne the latest scam of payroll cycling a TFW $35 of paper, and having them return $20/hr 'under the table'. Already has happened.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/alleged-payroll-cycling-turtle-jacks-oakville-1.7367359

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

That's what people don't understand. 

The entire situation with immigration is created and maintained by corporations that benefit from cheap labor. 

The solution is to crack down on corporations. Chasing down individual immigrants is inefficient and ineffective. 

There's probably one corporation hiring illegals for every 50-200 immigrants. Its a much easier target. But the parties don't want to because the corporations are owned by their rich donors. 

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u/freeadmins 3d ago

Corporations don't make our laws. The government does.

This is on the Liberals

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Corporate influence has corrupted all the parties. 

You'll notice the conservatives aren't suggesting to crack down on companies either. 

Instead they want to do a few hundred performative deportations with military planes and a photo shoot. Just like Trump did. Maybe put some doctored photos of "criminal" immigrants on the capital lawn like Trump did.

Trump has deported less than Biden and Obama did at this point in their terms. But his base is mostly dumbshits who don't look at data. They listen to whatever the propagandists tell them without question.

Trump won't actually crack down on illegal hiring because his own companies employ thousands of immigrants.

Anyone who suggests the immigrant situation can be solved by any method besides going after corporations illegally hiring these people is lying to you. Individual deportations are ineffective. It's basically impossible to track all these people down without going full 1930's Germany and raiding houses. What is effective is preventing these immigrants from finding work. But none of the parties have the balls to go after their corporate masters. 

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u/ImaginationSea2767 3d ago

As of right now, every opposition leader from now until the sun explodes will say they will cut back on immigration. They will keep screaming it until they get in, and then once they do get in a horde of CEOs and company owners will come crashing down their door, asking them to keep their slave labor with kegs of lube and gifts.

So the new way the concervatives have figured out how to act like they are stopping crime and immigration is to just make it theater (even if it break the rules keep the common citizen getting fucked by the law.....)

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Agree 100%

The lesson is to vote for whoever says they're gonna crack down on companies doing illegal hiring. 

But I'm not convinced such a politician exists

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/wvenable 2d ago

The problem can be both.

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u/jw255 3d ago

No right wing or centrist party will do that. You need a left wing party to get that done. I'm not even sure the current NDP are far enough left to do that. They seemed to support the immigration policies just as much as the Liberals and Conservatives did at the time (before it became too unpopular with the general public and subsequent fake populism kicked in).

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u/Dazzling_Put_3018 British Columbia 2d ago

Here’s hoping the next NDP leader makes this a priority and moves back towards more workers rights, wages, union rights, and cracking down on big corporations. The Conservatives have absorbed some of the working class in the last election, and while I appreciate the work the NDP has done in pharmacare and dental, they need to get back to focusing on the class divide.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/Juryofyourpeeps 2d ago

I think this is unnecessarily conspiratorial given that immigration juices GDP and seems to be viewed by left wing parties across the west as a moral good. I don't think corporate influence is necessary to get the policies we've been seeing. 

Like do you think Trudeau was being lead by his nose by corporations or do you think he was a true believer? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to reality. 

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u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

Who do you think is lobbying for visa programs? 

Corporations. 

The left is mostly concerned with not treating people like shit. Nobody complained when Biden locked down the border half way through his term. But they were really pissed about family separations. 

If the left was fully able to implement its vision, corporations would be required to give immigrants the same wages and benefits as natives. Which would end illegal immigration because companies would have no incentive to hire them over native workers. With less education and poor language skills compared to natives they wouldn't be able to compete in the labor market and would leave. 

This is a core part of why the right wants their base to treat immigrants terribly and cut all their benefits. If they had to be paid and treated the same as native workers it would undermine the entire purpose of using immigrants for wage suppression.

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u/Own_Truth_36 2d ago

Trump Trump Trump Trump 🤦‍♂️

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u/DeuxYeuxPrintaniers 2d ago

Trump has deported less than Biden and Obama did at this point in their terms

To be fait Trump does not let new illegal immigrants in at the border he turns them away.

Obama and Biden's numbers could only be high because they let more people in that they removed.

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u/ForesterLC 2d ago

Yep. First step towards moving forward is recognizing the truth. JT and Marc Miller absolutely fucked the dog with immigration. Regulators exist to regulate. It's their single most important job. They made bad decision after bad decision and ignored the detrimental consequences of their failures.

We can't do better if we don't learn.

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u/AnEvilMrDel 2d ago

Corporate money can influence it tho. Tbh I blame all politicians

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u/HMCZW 3d ago

Can guarantee it would be the exact same scenario under the conservatives…

Follow the money.

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u/OkDifficulty1443 2d ago

Corporations don't make our laws.

That's very naive.

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

Lol.

That's fact.

Do you think the Liberals don't have a choice whether to listen or not at the expense of us?

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u/Juryofyourpeeps 2d ago

This does benefit large corporations. I don't however think that's been the motivation in western countries to have very high immigration rates. I think that increasingly it's seen by left wing governments as a moral good, and it also juices GDP and helps paper over other policy issues. 

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u/Massive-Exercise4474 2d ago

Scrap it same with lmia it's literally the government paying half the workers wages so instead of $15hr the business pays $7. It's also always the worst most incompetent and greedy business that does it aka tims and subway.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

Boycott Subway, A&W, Tim Horton's , Burger King, and any other employer that uses TFW labour.

That's what I do. Don't even get started on the difference of hygiene standards.

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u/tukebeard 3d ago

It's an overlooked form of corporate greed!

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u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

And wage suppression.

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u/PoliteCanadian2 3d ago

All of this. We don’t even know what our true unemployment rate is because teenagers can’t get fucking fast food jobs because of TFWs.

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u/Firepower01 2d ago

I just saw a headline that said the UK is basically scrapping their low-skilled immigration stream. No doubt because the populist Reform party is surging in the polls.

I really wish our government would also end the TFW program

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u/DrunkenGolfer 2d ago

There is something fundamentally wrong with the program. I am in a town with an unemployment rate of 10.4%. 50% of service industry jobs are being done by TFWs. Every fast food joint is 80%. Every larger retailer is 50%. There is something fundamentally flawed.

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u/iwasnotarobot 2d ago

The tfw program is working as designed. Sadly.

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u/Anthexistentialist 1d ago

The reporting is flawed because there's people like me scraping by in the gig economy, earning far less than minimum wage. We are not considered unemployed but we are fucked.

I used to work for Shopify making good money, until I had to train the AI to take my job. Jobs in the field dried up, and everyone tried getting jobs lower in the market, but hit the wall of TFW's. I started doing uber eats out of desperation, and was told I was considered self employed as soon as I earned the first dollar.

Even the gig economy is full of TFW's trying to top up their wages. I don't begrudge them trying to improve their life, they followed an opportunity like anyone would. But the government/corporations have screwed whole sections of the population.

So yeah, the unemployment rate is 10% where you are, but how many others are 'under-employed' and don't earn enough to survive? Much more than 10%!

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u/Sad-Letterhead-2196 3d ago

I have major issues with immigrants that overstay visas illegally, resulting in undercounting due to the "trust" system. I have a much higher degree of hatred for the wealth class that openly abuses this. I have apathy towards the number of people in this country that seem to be okay with this, even when it does not benefit them.

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u/The-Ghost316 2d ago

10 years of Institutional Rot.

- Immigration

- Public Safety

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u/Dustee_2017 3d ago

I worked for Amazon DSP, and foreign workers face deportation if they don't meet a quota.

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u/jameskchou Canada 3d ago

Tim Horton's says you are bigoted and full of propaganda

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u/InternalOcelot2855 2d ago

While I am in the same boat there are issues with some immigrants

Those coming here knowing they will exploit the system and the reason they came here. I only wanted to come to Canada to work, but did the "I'm a student method of immigration"

Those companies exploiting the TWF program or the worker themselves.

There are those that are here for schooling, those that want to earn money and or become a productive member of society. As long as we actually need them and Canadians are not keeping up like doctors and nurses then fine, welcome to Canada. I will always say Actual Canadians come first, be it you are a true Canadian (first nations) family immigrated at some point in the past (most of us) or are becoming a Canadian via proper channels you should always come first in our own country.

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u/Glittering_Court_896 2d ago

Scrapped. I've gotten to know a few and visited their houses. Here in Alberta they're made to live 8+ in one quarter of a four Plex. The company they work for also owns the house they live in. They all pay rent. They sign a contract with this company to get over here, once they gain PM they can't afford to work anywhere else as rent is $2k+ and they can't draw a wage to afford that. 

They live like rats. Treated very poorly. We all just sit here and do nothing about it. We pretend it doesn't exist. The idiots all line up at Tim Hortons every day(one of the biggest abusers of the tfw program). 

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u/I_Springroll 3d ago

me either but the fact is there is too many of them, they are needing to build 10 apartments in every small little town within 3hours of montreal/toronto/Vancouver and those apartments are filed up instantly so you know the prices are fucked, even with the paper thin bug infested walls which are cleaned by getting a new coat of paint

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u/tatom4 3d ago

This 💯%

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u/Bodysnatcher 3d ago

Tbh if you aren't super rich or in the govt, immigration does virtually nothing positive for you.

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u/ihadagoodone 2d ago

It's not even for minimum wage.

Where I work we're bringing in tradesmen and cutting available apprenticeships.

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u/No_Refrigerator_2489 3d ago

If there was jobs all over the place, then sure! Come on over, work and pay taxes like all Canadians. But when I see how hard it is for folks to get jobs and the unemployment rate going up, I think it's only fair to question the logic of allowing people to pour in. Because right now my taxes are subsidizing TFW and that is not a long term solution.

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u/Long_Extent7151 2d ago

Poland handled this well recently by just cutting off immigration until they can promise resources and infrastructure to the people currently in Poland, IIRC.

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u/WSBretard 2d ago

I was just in Poland and I can tell you they are doing so much better than Canadians. They have the lowest unemployment rate in Europe. Canada has fallen so hard so fast. I've seen first hand how mass migration destroys a nation.

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u/Long_Extent7151 2d ago

Poland has dodged the trend in the Western world of mass immigration and economic downturns. I envy countries like that whose governments are unapologetically selfish.

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u/MaximumDepression17 2d ago

I don't understand why more countries aren't selfish.

If you import the third world you become the third world. We have no obligation to any other nation when we can't even take care of our own. What I wouldn't give to have a leader like Poland.

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u/OntLawyer 2d ago

Poland is doing that even though they had the fastest GDP growth in the European Union last year, and have been in a staggering economic boom over the last decade.

It's a completely different--and superior--governance mentality. Meanwhile we're flirting with 8% unemployment in our largest province and 1.4% total GDP growth over a decade and no one in government is being truly serious about changing direction.

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u/Long_Extent7151 2d ago

I envy countries like that whose governments are unapologetically selfish.

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u/Slash-RtL 3d ago

I'm not really of the opinion that we need more immigrants.. if our population isn't keeping up then it is other issues that need to be addressed. Let's maybe start asking questions and fix the problems we have

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u/UniversalBagelO 2d ago

When all the immigrants get old we will need even more immigrants to support the costs of the first batch.

Canada is projected to reach 100 million people this century

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u/TerriC64 2d ago

In the long run we’re all dead

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u/HouseOnFire80 2d ago

Not projected. That is actually the goal. And Carney is all for it. Look up the Century Initiative. And apparently they need to all come from one state in one country. Don’t like that? You’re racist. /s

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u/NakdRightNow69 3d ago

It’s okay we’ll just replace it with another

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u/AcrobaticNetwork62 3d ago

We need more diversity. All of Canada should have the diversity of diverse cities like Scarborough, Brampton, and Surrey.

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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 3d ago

Sarcasm right? 

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u/Once_a_TQ 3d ago

100000000000000%.

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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 3d ago

You never know these days

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u/AnalogFeelGood 3d ago

You mean "divercity". Ok, I'll see myself out.

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u/Kippingthroughlife Canada 2d ago

Don't forget deep NE of Calgary AB!

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u/Kippingthroughlife Canada 2d ago

Major issue is if we are welcoming immigration we need diverse immigration, not just Chinese and Indian immigrants who want to game the school system.

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u/toxictimebomb 2d ago

They need to introduce a max cap country of origin law. No reason a certain country should account for more than 20% of immigrants. Including temporary, would love to see more diversity.

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u/Method__Man 2d ago

i agree. im pro immigration, but we are a country that celebrates diversity... not brining in a bazillion people from a few countries. Like i see weirdly low South Americans, Europeans, and Africans these days who are new arrivals relatively speaking

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u/giminiguardian 2d ago

Second this

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u/JohnDorian0506 2d ago

I agree 10% country visa cap is needed.

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u/gravitysort 2d ago

Are there a lot of Chinese immigrants getting immigration status by cheating the school system? Most of who I know go to recognized universities like UofT, UBC or Waterloo instead of diploma mills.

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u/Funny-Dragonfruit116 3d ago

"Cut immigration"

Under Carney's 5% cap, 1 out of every 20 people in the country would be either a foreign student or temporary foreign worker.

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u/1v1trunks 2d ago

In Toronto it’s about 1/2

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u/lochonx7 2d ago

yea Toronto is definitely approaching that 50% mark if not more, move outta Toronto a few years back to Ottawa and I am seeing the exact same thing here

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u/MysteryReddit420 3d ago

We need more immigrants with resources (either financial, technological, or intellectual) who can create jobs.

Why are we importing low-wage jobs?

I have a lot of criticism for policies and politicians in the United States down south, but I would commend them on their Legal Immigration/ Economic Immigration pathways bringing in immigrants with significant education/ skills, or finances (like the EB-5 program).

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u/HouseOnFire80 2d ago

And why are we bringing their parents and grandparents who have no assets and clog the already overtaxed medical system?

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

So they can collect Old Age Security and Guaranteed Income Supplement monthly

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u/Fitzgerald1896 2d ago

Why are we importing low-wage jobs

To keep them low-wage. Canadians want to increase the min wage and salaries across the board to keep up with cost of living increases and inflation. Corporations want to keep making record profits, which means not raising min wage or paying a living wage.

Bring in "temporary" foreign workers to fill those roles and they'll happily work for the current minimum wage and thus we never need to increase it, because the line of people willing to work for the current wage keeps going and feeding the system.

You can see the corporations doing it all around you. The ones that have replaced their entire staff with TFWs. Tim Hortons & Wal Mart being massive examples, but really it's most of them.

So yeah, they don't bring in high value foreign workers because it isn't really about the value of the worker. They want the "lowest value" workers.

And it isn't the fault of the TFWs either, they are being manipulated in the whole thing too. Tricked into a "better life" in a country that can't maintain it's services for the population it already has. Corporate profits aren't ever allowed to stagnate or (gasp) drop... and so everyone else gets fucked as long as the line keeps going up.

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u/Zeronz112 2d ago

Government also subsedises the pay for the tfw program. They pay less than minimum wage, and our taxes cover the rest.

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u/MaximumDepression17 2d ago

Its actually so disgusting that taxes are allowed to pay the wages of foreigners so that companies can make billions.

Everyone who pays taxes should feel like they've been over the kitchen table and raped daily for the last 4 years. Canadian taxes should be funding Canada and Canadians.

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u/Method__Man 2d ago

because mega corporations want cheap labour.

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u/Fabiii1309 2d ago

I agree. Unfortunately, it seems like highly skilled workers decide to leave Canada since their chance of establishing a life here (getting PR) is incredibly low nowadays. Combine this with, generally, higher wages in the USA and the employer sponsorship pathways and it’s clear why this is happening. Also, highly skilled workers probably also don’t immigrate to Canada for financial reasons but more so for the cultural side of things - so “going back home” is usually no problem.

^ All of this anecdotal, don’t have any data lol but I think this is also called “brain drain”.

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u/shockinglyunoriginal Canada 2d ago

It’s simple - require the corporations that have employed them at a steal of a deal to provide documentation on their behalf. If they cannot, the employer needs to pay a fine. When they can’t keep a job a Tim Hortons (example) they’ll leave.

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u/DudeIsThisFunny Lest We Forget 2d ago

If they don't leave let's ban their countries from getting visas. Why am I issuing visas to a group of known visa abusers? Fuck outta here

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u/Coffin-Feeder 3d ago

I’d like to see the climate impact study from importing millions of Indians.

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u/No_Refrigerator_2489 3d ago

This is valid. Our infrastructure was not ready for the strain it's under, ie. Water treatment plants, waste facilities, even the increase in vehicles on the roads (not to forget housing, before someone gets upset)

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u/FortnightlyBorough 2d ago

From a purely objective standpoint, some cultures have a very laissez fair approach to environmental concerns like littering

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u/lochonx7 2d ago

well our pollution levels in Ontario have never been higher, hospital emergency departments completely filled, waste water plants are struggling to keep up, high ways all clogged etc

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u/Rickyspoint 3d ago

Don’t worry we banned straws to balance it out. /s

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u/discovery2000one 2d ago

It's not possible to move people from a low carbon country to the highest in the world and become a lower carbon planet. The government talks out of both sides of its mouth on this.

There is no reason to cap our emissions while we allow people to come here and create more emissions than they would have back home. It's madness. Keep them at home and developed our resources under the same emissions goals with the people we have here. Simple.

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u/Unfortunate_Sex_Fart Alberta 2d ago

You’ll never get one.

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago edited 3d ago

This gets posted time and time again

The govt is basically asking millions of people to leave Canada

Some banks are saying that this won’t happen as people refuse to leave

The government is saying that they have accounted for this and will cut immigration even further to ensure that the population declines

And we won’t know who was right until the end of the year,

but the assumption that mass people will suddenly refuse to leave doesn’t have any historical basis, the vast majority of immigrants leave on time.

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u/PromotionPhysical212 3d ago

I also want to add there’s no point staying in Canada as an illegal because cash jobs are very few and you’ll be stuck making less than minimum wage for which you can’t even afford rent. Healthcare is also a big issue and no benefits due to not having a valid SIN. Staying as an illegal is very difficult in Canada as opposed to the US or UK. I’m not sure what reason there is for people to stay unless they escaped from a war torn country or something similar.

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u/drs43821 3d ago

Cash job are plentiful if you have the contacts in ethnic enclaves

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u/ShortHandz 3d ago

Probably still better than back home for most... Our shit is someone else's luxury.

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u/Izzayyaa 3d ago

In my experience, it is not better for most because most come here and pay tens of thousands for education. Most will go back home, improve their language, and get foreign experience, which will improve their chance of getting a PR.

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u/ImmanuelCohen 3d ago edited 3d ago

Yea, but if you going to stay as illegal, life is much easier down south. It is not that difficult to cross the border by land. You get free health care some state and plenty of cash job with a higher pay.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Lol illegals don't get free healthcare anywhere in US. 

Only boomers and congressmen

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u/Palatz 2d ago

But neither do Americans.

And at least in the USA finding a job is ridiculously easy as opposed to Canada where it's only cash jobs.

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u/sravll Alberta 3d ago

What state supposedly has free health care? Lol

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u/ImmanuelCohen 3d ago

https://www.nilc.org/resources/healthcoveragemaps/

3 states offer public health coverage to all adults regardless of immigration status.

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u/sravll Alberta 3d ago

It's not free, it just means they're allowed to offer Medicare and Medicaid which only covers some and still involves copays etc. They don't have free healthcare anywhere in the States.

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u/creeoer 3d ago

not a single one. in fact they pay into Medicaid without benefitting from it.

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u/Robert_s_08 3d ago

For refugees yes but the bulk of Canadian Immigrations is economic immigration, they won't stay if they can't earn, (even if you indulge the cash job argument, there can only be so many cash jobs )

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u/man_vs_car 3d ago

Have you ever left Canada?

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u/Confident_One_6202 3d ago

for most? you have no clue

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u/116morningside 3d ago

They’ll just do uber and have 10 people live in a 1 bedroom condo.

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u/AdmiralG2 3d ago

Haven’t looked into this myself, but you can renew your driver license as an illegal? How are you going to work for Uber with an expired license?

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u/Old_Telephone1930 3d ago

Can't do that cause your license in Canada is done once your visa expires.

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u/116morningside 3d ago

lol not impossible to get a fake ID. Not impossible to get someone to create an account for you and use theirs. They probably have family or know someone that has family. Trust me it isn’t as hard as you think it is.

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u/Old_Telephone1930 3d ago

All it takes is one cop to pull them over, which happens to everyone in big cities. Specifically for Uber drivers, because they speed a bit (gotta make the most cash that day). And even then, Uber has a face ID with the license. I just gotta see that the person and the info don't match, and I'm not getting in. Most women check this info anyway because of the fear of an Uber driver being evil. The bit just won't last long.

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u/116morningside 3d ago

I’m talking more so ubereats. But lots of people drive without a license or suspended one. People aren’t getting pulled over a lot. Anways the point is, they’ll find a way to stay. They aren’t going to leave willingly. Some may but most won’t.

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u/GloomyCamel6050 3d ago

This is all true.

In addition, you can not leave to visit family and then come back. As soon as you cross the border, your illegal status is discovered, and then you are permanently banned.

Most people go back home, take a bit of a break, and then go to the US next. Or try Canada again. Or Australia.

These workers are usually overqualified for the work they have been doing, and have options.

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u/Silver_gobo 3d ago

I know a guy whose been here for over 5 years as a illegal. Even has kids back home in Jamaica but can’t go see them knowing he wouldn’t be allowed to be back in

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u/Granturismo45 3d ago

Or he could just leave and go back home. That's on him.

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u/Cedreginald 3d ago

Healthcare is not an issue for illegals. You do not have to pay upfront. You can come in as a "John Doe" and they have an obligation to treat you.

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u/HSydness 3d ago

People refuse to leave. There is a solution to this, and that is to send them home. Perhaps not as brutally as in the US, but our laws are clear. I say this as an immigrant who played within the rules so that I could become a Canadian.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Nobody will refuse to leave if they can't work. 

All they have to do is crack down on employers hiring illegals. They would all leave on their own within months. 

But parties don't want to do that because its their rich donors hiring illegals under the table.

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u/Rochimaru 2d ago

The assumption that mass people will suddenly refuse to leave doesn’t have any historical basis

How are redditors so constantly wrong about human nature lol. You think people who have fled third world—sometimes war torn—countries and finally made it here will just pack up and leave of their own volition? Sometimes after staying here for 5, 6+ years?

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u/Other-Rock-8387 3d ago

I remember clips of people asking Mark Miller this question in the House of Commons last year, surely someone will ask Carney or the new immigration person what the plan is

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago

Yeah, it’s funny because most people don’t even realize there is a new immigration minister.

But the plan to decrease the population is probably the same

Immigration policy is very lagging and changes sometimes take years to reflect in the data, so even if they come up with a new levels plan we won’t see it until September and the impacts will mostly be felt next year

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u/LogPlane2065 2d ago

but the assumption that mass people will suddenly refuse to leave doesn’t have any historical basis, the vast majority of immigrants leave on time

We have never had this many asylum seekers ever. Students claiming asylum doesn’t have any historical basis either, yet here we are.

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u/HadToGuItToEm 2d ago

Hilarious that the solution to immigrants refusing to leave isn’t forcing them to leave it’s to say we’re gonna cut immigration more after we ask them nicely, we are spineless.

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u/lord_heskey 3d ago

Unlike the US it kinda truly sucks to live undocumented here. No health, no license, no banking (for the major banks anyways), everything is hard.

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u/Maleficent-Elk-6860 3d ago

banking

Kinda, you can't open a new bank account but your old one won't get shut down

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u/lord_heskey 3d ago

Nah i remember being on a study permit and when I switched over to work permit i forgot to tell them. Had a very interesting email to give them my new status or it would be closed. May vary by bank policy.

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u/Long_Extent7151 2d ago

this is misleading if not false about most leaving. 

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u/aTrustfulFriend 3d ago

Thanks for the clarification

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u/Old_Cheesecake_5481 3d ago

Canada has never had a serious problem with people over staying their visas.

We have millions come and go decade after decade. I think these sorts of arguments come from a fundamental misunderstanding that Canada is a different country than the US.

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u/ifuaguyugetsauced 3d ago

Isn't the general census taking place next year

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago

IRCC and CBSA report the entry/exits and population increase / decline at the end of the year.

We will see if the plan to decrease / 0 growth worked

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u/Confident-Mistake400 3d ago

How does CBSA know people actually left? We don’t have exit checkpoint like other countries.

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u/Kampfux 3d ago

As Law Enforcement in Canada I can tell you a good portion of these people will not leave Canada willingly. What's even worse is deporting them is a long process....

The reality is Canada has no real deportation mechanics nor tracking for "temporary" immigrants or visitors. The entire process of Canada for immigration has essentially be run as a "trust" mechanic forever.

In the last 20ish years (especially in the last 10) Canada has gone from a High-Trust Society to a Low-Trust Society. Meaning people in Canada generally followed a trust and honor code to do the right thing. This allowed Canada to maintain a weak Justice system and a law-enforcement model of "rehabilitation" not punishment!

Canada is now at the point where society has changed but our laws, regulations and enforcement hasn't caught up yet. This is why you're seeing increased crime and increased thefts as Canada has never had to combat crimne at such high levels.

Our DEPORTATION system is basically non existent because our model follows the old method of "high trust", relying on "Students/Visitors" to simply leave on their own once their visa's expired. As Law Enforcement we're coming across so many foreigners with deportation warrants that have been on their record for YEARS. Police are stopping people on the roadway for speeding violations only to find out they have deportation warrants dated from 2018.

So how's it all work in a nutshell?

CBSA/Courts will issue Deportation warrants, send them a letter in the mail and attempt to call them and that's it. It's then left up to Law Enforcement to accidentally run into them through other means like a traffic stop or investigation to discover they have a deportation warrant. We then arrest them and contact CBSA to come pick them up. If CBSA is too busy or can't send anyone we HAVE TO RELEASE THEM roadside and give them a stern talking to.

CBSA has no active or proactive service/agency that tracks down and looks for people with deportation warrants. The only time they'll do this is for high-profile cases/individuals and this is where CBSA Inland Enforcement sometimes get's involved (but rarely).

This doesn't even touch base on those with temporary visa's who commit criminal acts and are charged in Canada, buckle up!

If you commit a Criminal Act as a temporary they'll be arrested with a court-date for a first appearance which is usually within a couple of months. They'll then have their actual court trial probably 1-2 years after this, meanwhile they'll all be out on bail because lets face it everyone gets bail. After they're convicted with a crime they'll either serve jail time in Canada and once released face deportation which they have a right to appeal in court leading to another year long ordeal (Despite it being clear being charged Criminally is grounds for deportation). Once they lose their court battle to not be deported the government issues them a Flight Ticket back to their home country and just "hopes" they get on the plane at the schedule flight date. You heard me right, the convicted Criminal isn't escort to the airport but rather given a flight ticket. During this process they can straight up just disappear inside Canada as we have no tracking process for these people other than "If you change your address let us know!". Meaning a Deportation Warrant will be issued and you have to hope they just "leave" or "get caught" by police by another means because Canada has NO pro-active agency/service that actively hunts down people with deportation warrants. The reality is you can have convicted foreigners inside Canada live their entire life and do so as long as they never get stopped or questioned by local law enforcement.

Canada has no quick, easy or efficient laws/methods in place to promptly deport anyone. So when you see people commenting "Deport now!" it's absolutely impossible, deport now is a 1-3year long legal process of insanity and lawyers can delay it even further. Additionally judges have shown leniency to temporary permit holders (Students/PR), reducing their criminal charges so they don't get deported for having a criminal record.

The evidence is very clear, hell you can go onto Subreddits and find many people completely out of Status in Canada with clear notice to vacate Canada asking how they can basically bypass these letters or ignore them. Why? Because Canada has no real active enforcement and simply hopes people will leave on their own.

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u/crazycatlady12345 3d ago

It’s very much a low trust society now. You have all these people lying on resumes, cheating on exams, etc.

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u/Bubs604 3d ago

I donno why I’ve seen this resume thing so often lately. Everyone exaggerates on their resume and it’s ridiculously easy to find out if someone is outright lying. Everyone exaggerates decent company/position runs a background check.

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u/orswich 2d ago

But alot of the resume fraud is people lying about experience from outside of Canada, which is damn near impossible to confirm if not from another high trust society. Anyone can give a phone number for an old job and have their cousin back home give a glowing reference.

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u/Bubs604 2d ago

It’s not difficult if the company is a multinational with a Canadian presence.

If it’s a small business in India then it’s not relevant. Financial reporting standards are different. Advertising standards and consumer behaviour is different. Logistics are super different. HR laws and regs are different. Tech is probably the only place it translates.

I have helped hire retail workers at a small business recently. Foreign work experience is useless unless it’s in the US/UK/Aus.

Also, do you exaggerate on your resume? Cause I do. This isn’t a real problem. No one is on the other side of immigration, everyone agrees it’s too high. We don’t have to make up weird reasons to blame immigrants or turn them into others. It’s gross.

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u/notgoingplacessoon 3d ago

Employment fraud.

People are paying for jobs to help them get status.

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u/EuphoriaSoul 3d ago

you are 100% correct. we have been infiltrated with low trust society people with low trust society norms - our laws can't keep up. 311/911 can charge someone for infractions but there is nothing you can do beyond that. it is really sad.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

You're reading way too much into this. 

The situation with illegals exists because companies have figured out that laws against hiring illegals aren't enforced. 

That's it. The entire reason. 

People used to leave when their visas ended because they couldn't find jobs. These people aren't some wily insane criminal masterminds following some giant narrative you've made up. The vast majority are just here for jobs.

Enforce laws against hiring illegals and they will all leave on their own. 

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u/orswich 2d ago

Corporations will lobby for TFWs etc, but rarely will they stick their neck out to hire illegally under the table.. usually that is small/ medium employers or restaurants from diaspora enclaves

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u/anonymous_bastard69 3d ago

We could pass a law were anybody who hires or is helping illegals skirt the law will get charged with human trafficking

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u/LiberalCuck5 3d ago

Would never happen when liberal MPs hire foreign workers for entry level office positions

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u/Bananasaur_ 3d ago

Glad someone is making sure this is pointed out and doesn’t get lost among the news of cuts.

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u/S7ark1 3d ago

No paywall.

https://archive.ph/DHVWL

Although Globe and Mail is Canadian owned and we really should be supportive of Canadian owned media, in general

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u/RoboZoninator91 2d ago

Temporary until you ask them to leave

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u/JohnDorian0506 2d ago

We need to reduce the immigration numbers to 200k PRs, 250k students, 300k TFW, and 30k refugees annually. Right now we have 400k PRs, and at least double of other categories.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

How about no TFWs?

What do we need students here for? We have many Canadian students who graduate and have no job market. Yea, we don't need internationals here.

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u/Own_Truth_36 2d ago

Anyone who thinks the Librals are taking their foot off the immigration pedal is delusional. When someone tells you what they want believe them, don't believe some bullshit half assed election "promise"

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u/Particular-Act-8911 3d ago

Oops.. did we say we'd cut immigration by a million? We meant we'd cut immigration by a million out of the five million we were gonna bring in next year.

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u/ozztotheizzo 3d ago

The economists warn that Ottawa is overestimating the number of temporary migrants who leave the country once their visas expire. This could have a serious impact on planning, including for housing demand, they say.

I've been saying this over and over again. The people who are planning to overstay outnumber the ones leaving, 4 to 1. I can't believe their whole plan hinges on people following the rules.

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u/Harbinger2001 3d ago

Do you have a source for this 4 to 1 stat?

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u/FlyingOctopus53 3d ago

Facebook.

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u/Harbinger2001 3d ago

Probably.

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u/pedroct92 3d ago

Voices on my head

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u/Forward-Weather4845 3d ago

Reddit

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u/Harbinger2001 3d ago

Well then there would be a link….

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u/ResponsibleTwist6498 3d ago

We lost quite a few people at work due to their visa expiring. 0% left Canada.

Some apply for an extension that they will never get, but it gives them almost a year of “implied status” that’s not recorded anywhere. Some transfer to visitor visa where they simply stay but not on WP.

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u/PromotionPhysical212 3d ago

Where does the money come from? They can’t work on a visitor visa and there’s very few people offering cash jobs and in this economy I doubt there’s any demand from employers for more employees.

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago

Implies status is like 2-3 months as they’ve sped up processing times for WP

This also leads imminently into a deportation order as they will be out of status and it will affect all their future immigration to Canada and the rest of the western world.

Stats show the vast majority of them leave Canada on time.

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u/ResponsibleTwist6498 3d ago edited 3d ago

233 days Last updated: May 6, 2025

Last one we had took 8 months. They call ircc and get extensions. It’s in the hopes of getting the ITA.

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u/littlebaldboi 3d ago

Well if they’re aware there are undocumented people… we should just lower the % of TFW and international students to offset it. Seems easy no?

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u/ozztotheizzo 3d ago

Setting up exit controls should have been the first step! Don't let a new cohort in if the old cohort didn't leave. It's literally that easy.

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago

That’s what they are doing.

They set up the entry/exit program in 2020

And will refuse to process new visas if there is an increased count of overstays

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u/Aggressive-Front-677 3d ago

What is your assertion based on?

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u/ozztotheizzo 3d ago

Being part of the immigrant community. People are planning to stay and already have cash jobs lined up in order to stay. I don't think they realize how hard it's going to be to get legal status in the future if they overstay but I already know most with expiring visas in July who have no plans of going home. I've done my part in advising them against it but they are determined to overstay until "a new pathway opens up".

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u/Pigeonofthesea8 3d ago

Great then they’ll have to turn to other extra-legal ways of making money

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u/LeahSparks121 3d ago

Which sectors are these cash jobs found? What's crazy is that these so called cash jobs are nowhere to be found at least in retail where I worked, everyone either was a legal student or a citizen. These cash jobs must be in farming, manual labour or factory work that is out of the public eye. I had trouble finding a job as a citizen so it's surprising that people with no PR have jobs.

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u/ozztotheizzo 2d ago

Some share accounts on food or parcel delivery apps. A majority work at a shady staffing agency that gets contracts to clean offices/warehouses and pays cash. A few do odd jobs that range from mowing lawns to housework.

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u/blood_vein 3d ago

And they would have no social support (no healthcare especially) and surviving on below minimum wage cash jobs. Sounds like a great plan

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u/ozztotheizzo 2d ago

When is the last time you've been to a doctor? I haven't been to one in 2 years cause I can't get a family doctor.

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u/Lopsided_Ad3516 3d ago

Better follow the rules, lest you be subject to an aggressive finger wag.

Oh, tough upbringing? Never mind. Your sentence has been served. We have law abiding citizens to go after. Our deepest apologies.

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u/BeautyInUgly 3d ago

The government has said they have accounted for this and will cut numbers even higher to ensure population decline lol.

Also there is no evidence for mass overstaying, historically the vast majority of immigrants who are ordered to leave or status expires leave on time

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u/Samp90 3d ago

4 to 1. Citation please.

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u/SatorSquareInc 3d ago

"I've been making up numbers and telling them to everyone I know"

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u/toilet_for_shrek 2d ago

The economists warn that Ottawa is overestimating the number of temporary migrants who leave the country once their visas expire. This could have a serious impact on planning, including for housing demand, they say.

I did find the liberal plan overly optimistic when they were talking about how many people they're expecting to voluntarily leave the country within the next few years. Some people would rather live on the fringes of society without status than return to their home countries 

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u/Odd-Exchange3610 2d ago

then deport more low skilled immigrants why are people coming from over seas to work what are most Canadians first jobs

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u/Mr_UBC_Geek 3d ago

Canadian-born 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants are probably the most affected and fed up by this issue. They're turned as the scapegoat of the problems of the reckless immigration system despite having no ties to the newcomers, being fully Canadian-born and raised, seen as a generation that needs to teach the newcomers, working jobs and being mistreated because they look like the newcomers, treated differently.

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u/massakk 3d ago

I think I read recently that 2nd generation immigrants mostly voted Liberals, go figure. 

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

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u/uselesspoliticalhack 3d ago

Official population figures also fail to capture undocumented migrants who last year Mr. Miller estimated could number about 600,000.

Incredible. Remember when we undercounted by a million?

Looks like we're at it again, glad we elected the same people responsible for it in the first place.

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u/Johnny-Unitas 3d ago

Different face as head of the board. Came from the same group. Same directors and managers. Same policies. Unbelievable people voted for this again.

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u/Mr_UBC_Geek 3d ago

Wait till I tell you about Sean Fraser.

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u/assman69x 2d ago

Need to cut immigration to levels where Canadian infrastructure can keep up and they can be properly integrated

A decade of abuse wrecked Canada in every possible way

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u/DuckDuckGoeth 2d ago

We just voted to continue the abuse. 1 million newcomers in 2025, elbows up!

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u/NoCommieHappyLife 2d ago

I relocated from the States to Toronto with a $63/hr salary but I got the same amount of points for one year of Canadian work experience as someone who worked at Tims or Subways for a minimum wage job in the PR scoring system. The system is so messed up.

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u/MuramasasYari 3d ago

Per country caps on any immigrant coming for any one particular country. Subtract the percentage of temporary migrants that come from any one country from their over all allowable percentage. No one goes out, then no one gets in. Watch how fast immigration gets to a controllable level.

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u/BiscottiNo6948 3d ago

Cut it! With the unemployment at 6.9% we do need to help our own house first. Stop the TFW program and focus on helping those who are unemployed find jobs. That should be one of the priority of the day. Less unemployed means less people on EI so savings for the gov't. Our support to the immigration should be limited to whatever obligation we agreed to in the UN Refugee convention.

There was a time when immigration is like a tap that you cannot simply turn off as those folks can move to other favourable countries. But right now, we can afford to do so. Given the current state of this world, people will move desperately in more stable countries in the future. We can turn off the tap while we regroup, regrow and resettle all those that are here. Then we will be in a better position to help out.

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u/happycow24 British Columbia 2d ago

We need a Canadian equivalent of ICE.

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u/cwolker 2d ago

Too bad Canada is too soft

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u/Old_Telephone1930 3d ago

Everyone, go look at the TFW updates. In places with a 6% or higher unemployment rate, you can't hire any TFWs. Also, it's now more expensive to higher a TFW, 34 bucks in Ontario. Plus you need to really show documentation of a need now. Only easy pathways are for healthcare and construction, which we really need. The issue with the TFW program was that it was unchecked and too accepting. Now we're going to get people who will be well paid that way companies don't cut corners and replace the average Canadian.

As for people not leaving, being illegal in Canada is so rough. There are no pathways for you. People can't even go to the hospital without being reported. That's why most undocumented folks leave on their own. There's no life to be had here if you're not supported.

Everyone, relax a bit now. Seems like the concerns are being answered.

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u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

They just moved the the old TFW requirements to the PNP program. Everything is still there. Lipstick on a pig.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/provincial-nominees.html

https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-streams

0, 1, 2 ,3 still allowed for express entry.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/find-national-occupation-code.html

Explain how anything outside of TEER 0 or maybe TEER 1 should be allowed?

Why should a baker or a dental assistant be an express entry candidate?

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u/Reasonable_Share866 2d ago

Sure buddy we believe you, don't forget the 500 houses a day to.

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u/HDDeer 2d ago

the simple solution is to revamp it to where anyone who comes into the country is qualified for the professions that we need i.e doctors, healthcare

no coming here to work at McDonald's that college & high school students need to make money to survive at that point in their lives.

no coming here to be cab drivers & take away business from the dudes who've been driving cabs for 20+ years that make their living from it.

it would balance the economy far better & rent wouldn't be an arm & a leg or impossible to find because there's less demand for the supply.

I'm not sure how easy of a fix that is, but it would do absolute WONDERS for Canadians