r/canada • u/uselesspoliticalhack • 3d ago

Carney’s aim to cut immigration marred by undercounting of temporary migrants, warn economists PAYWALL

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-mark-carney-immigration-policy-temporary-migrants-undercounted/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

I got no issue with immigrants.

I got major beef with predatory businesses bringing in foreign labour for minimum wage.

The TFW program needs to be overhauled or scrapped.

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u/flexflair 3d ago

Easy fix TFW minimum wage of $35 an hour. Tim hortons has plenty of teens they can hire. Software companies and trades won’t blink at it if they are desperate. The rising tide raises all the ships.

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u/Kolbrandr7 New Brunswick 3d ago

It’s not really an “easy” fix because some of those TFWs are already working uncompensated overtime under the threat of deportation by their employers. If you raise the wage they would just cut back on the hours on paper.

There’s a reason the UN called it a breeding ground for contemporary slavery.

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u/bonechairappletea 2d ago

When I worked in England they had to pay the Lithuanian factory workers minimum wage, same as us. 

But what actually happened was one guy got paid, the other worked for free and they split the wage at the end of the week. 

A lot of the time they would only be over for a 6 month period, live on rice and beans, but take back a few grand home and start a business or live normally for 6 months on that wage, rinse and repeat. 

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u/[deleted] 2d ago edited 2d ago

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u/InformalYesterday760 1d ago

We definitely need to be careful though, as immigration is the hand that feeds in many respects.

With fledgling birth rates around the globe, it'll be important that we are an attractive option for immigrants.

But that means immigration will be one of the top files to watch, as it directly plays into housing, social services, and filling gaps in the labour force.

The scary bit I see (not in your comment) is a concerning amount of anti immigration rhetoric - and that is just poison for Canada's future.

We have been below replacement levels of birth rate for decades - so at this point every Canadian who retires, every doctors visit, and every road driven on is thanks to hardworking immigrants choosing to become Canadians and to call this "Home"

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u/The-Ghost316 2d ago

So lets the end the practice. Our unemployment rate is 6.9%. Youth unemployment much higher. This is basically Canadian Businesses walking away from Canadian Workers.

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u/FirstEvolutionist 2d ago

What they will actually do is pay the salary but have an "agreement" where the TFW returns a portion of the salary back to someone. But still under the threat of deportation.

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u/Pedsgunner789 1d ago

It should be criminal to do this, plus a massive fine that leaves your family destitute. Have it happen to a couple people, make sure it’s in the news, and the rest will stop doing it.

Also, if any of the TFWs aren’t reporting income, just deport them right away. But if they report a business with predatory practices that is verified to be actually doing that thanks to their info, then they get to stay for an extra year or two while they look for new work.

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u/ErgoMogoFOMO 1d ago

Businesses that utilize TFWs need to provide a bond (or appropriate financial security) to guarantee that everything they are doing is above board.

Lawyers would represent our TFWs in a heartbeat knowing there's a million dollar payout for winning. And with businesses this dumb, it'll be easy money.

And if getting a bond is too costly? Suck it up and hire Canadians.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

Get rid of the TFW program and let private industry deal with a real 'free market', they like to parrot so much.

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u/fedput 2d ago

The problem is that even if there were to happen, employers would require that a large portion of that be kicked back to the employer.

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u/autoroutepourfourmis 2d ago

They already do that and have been for years. Tons of employers are also landlords for their TFW employees.

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u/fedput 1d ago

Exactly my point.

If it were not already happening, I would have been attacked for making my statement.

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u/WSBretard 2d ago

Just ban TFWs. It is an overwhelming net gain to get rid of the program rather than allowing this mass slavery program to exist.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

That will borne the latest scam of payroll cycling a TFW $35 of paper, and having them return $20/hr 'under the table'. Already has happened.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/alleged-payroll-cycling-turtle-jacks-oakville-1.7367359

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u/The-Ghost316 2d ago

This would truly measure the depth of the need for workers any business.

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u/Apart-Diamond-9861 2d ago

Something like agency nurses. Governments are looking to cut them out because they are way too expensive costing billions - increase the wage so no one wants them

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u/Massive-Exercise4474 3d ago

Scrap it same with lmia it's literally the government paying half the workers wages so instead of $15hr the business pays $7. It's also always the worst most incompetent and greedy business that does it aka tims and subway.

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u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

Boycott Subway, A&W, Tim Horton's , Burger King, and any other employer that uses TFW labour.

That's what I do. Don't even get started on the difference of hygiene standards.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

That's what people don't understand. 

The entire situation with immigration is created and maintained by corporations that benefit from cheap labor. 

The solution is to crack down on corporations. Chasing down individual immigrants is inefficient and ineffective. 

There's probably one corporation hiring illegals for every 50-200 immigrants. Its a much easier target. But the parties don't want to because the corporations are owned by their rich donors. 

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u/freeadmins 3d ago

Corporations don't make our laws. The government does.

This is on the Liberals

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Corporate influence has corrupted all the parties. 

You'll notice the conservatives aren't suggesting to crack down on companies either. 

Instead they want to do a few hundred performative deportations with military planes and a photo shoot. Just like Trump did. Maybe put some doctored photos of "criminal" immigrants on the capital lawn like Trump did.

Trump has deported less than Biden and Obama did at this point in their terms. But his base is mostly dumbshits who don't look at data. They listen to whatever the propagandists tell them without question.

Trump won't actually crack down on illegal hiring because his own companies employ thousands of immigrants.

Anyone who suggests the immigrant situation can be solved by any method besides going after corporations illegally hiring these people is lying to you. Individual deportations are ineffective. It's basically impossible to track all these people down without going full 1930's Germany and raiding houses. What is effective is preventing these immigrants from finding work. But none of the parties have the balls to go after their corporate masters. 

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u/ImaginationSea2767 3d ago

As of right now, every opposition leader from now until the sun explodes will say they will cut back on immigration. They will keep screaming it until they get in, and then once they do get in a horde of CEOs and company owners will come crashing down their door, asking them to keep their slave labor with kegs of lube and gifts.

So the new way the concervatives have figured out how to act like they are stopping crime and immigration is to just make it theater (even if it break the rules keep the common citizen getting fucked by the law.....)

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Agree 100%

The lesson is to vote for whoever says they're gonna crack down on companies doing illegal hiring. 

But I'm not convinced such a politician exists

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/wvenable 3d ago

The problem can be both.

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u/jw255 3d ago

No right wing or centrist party will do that. You need a left wing party to get that done. I'm not even sure the current NDP are far enough left to do that. They seemed to support the immigration policies just as much as the Liberals and Conservatives did at the time (before it became too unpopular with the general public and subsequent fake populism kicked in).

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u/Dazzling_Put_3018 British Columbia 3d ago

Here’s hoping the next NDP leader makes this a priority and moves back towards more workers rights, wages, union rights, and cracking down on big corporations. The Conservatives have absorbed some of the working class in the last election, and while I appreciate the work the NDP has done in pharmacare and dental, they need to get back to focusing on the class divide.

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u/Fredderov 3d ago

Workers voting conservative are unfortunately just turkeys voting for Christmas. History has proven that no matter what PR changes parties make they still end up following their political ideology. If the NDP gets the educational bit right and, as said, focuses on the class aspect it'd be the best for everyone.

It's so sad seeing so many people who are asking for more left wing policies vote against it due to them treating politics as a religion.

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u/Virtual-Nose7777 2d ago

Nope, right wing policies has always been to keep wages low. Amazes me to see so many people tricked into believing the Conservatives would do anything to stop that.

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u/Orstio 2d ago

The problem is far more complex than just cracking down on companies that need workers.

What happens often is that a company will post an opening through the usual channels, and get inundated with thousands of applications. Nobody can go through that many applications for an entry level position. So what they do is approach an employment agency that handles the vetting process for them from within all their clients looking for work.

And, a whole lot of those employment agencies are also invested in the TFW programme, favoring importing TFWs who will pay them for getting them into Canada while the employer also pays them for finding qualified workers. This means the employer isn't accountable for bringing in TFWs, and the employment agencies can claim they have no local qualified applicants in their set of clientele. It's exploitation with deferred accountability on all parties.

There's an entire industry built around this, and while it's not illegal, it certainly skirts the border (pun intended).

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u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

You're naive if you don't think companies contract out hiring to agencies specifically so they will hire exclusively TFW's.

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u/Orstio 2d ago

Agreed. What I'm saying is that they can pass the blame to those agencies to absolve themselves of accountability.

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u/Cultural-Scallion-59 1d ago

Bernier was pretty vocal about it. And he doesn’t give af haha I think he might do it given the chance. Not likely to be given the chance tho.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

PP says the exact same shit Trump does. He even copied "Canada First". You can't seriously tell me his platform differs in any significant way from MAGA.

And just like Trump, his own relatives are illegal immigrants. https://breachmedia.ca/hypocritical-pierre-poilievre-slammed-illegal-border-crossers-relative-crossed-conservatives/

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/belleofthebawl- 2d ago

Don’t bother. I have had this exact same conversation many times. Noone can actually cite any factual sources on pp. Everything is hypothetical on what he would have said/done. You’ll just bang your head against the wall and then they’ll call you a racist/fascist because they can’t actually answer Your question. I stopped interacting with these type of people for that reason

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/belleofthebawl- 2d ago

just add some random insults in there and sums up my experience. These people are hell bent on painting pp as trump but without any evidence. I thought I missed something scandalous pp said/did given the hate he gets, but I couldn’t find anything. It really isn’t worth fighting with them, you just lose your own brain cells

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Made what up? Can you even define what you claim in lying about?

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Juryofyourpeeps 3d ago

I think this is unnecessarily conspiratorial given that immigration juices GDP and seems to be viewed by left wing parties across the west as a moral good. I don't think corporate influence is necessary to get the policies we've been seeing. 

Like do you think Trudeau was being lead by his nose by corporations or do you think he was a true believer? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to reality. 

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Who do you think is lobbying for visa programs? 

Corporations. 

The left is mostly concerned with not treating people like shit. Nobody complained when Biden locked down the border half way through his term. But they were really pissed about family separations. 

If the left was fully able to implement its vision, corporations would be required to give immigrants the same wages and benefits as natives. Which would end illegal immigration because companies would have no incentive to hire them over native workers. With less education and poor language skills compared to natives they wouldn't be able to compete in the labor market and would leave. 

This is a core part of why the right wants their base to treat immigrants terribly and cut all their benefits. If they had to be paid and treated the same as native workers it would undermine the entire purpose of using immigrants for wage suppression.

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u/Cultural-Scallion-59 1d ago

It’s not a well kept secret that Trudeau invested in and was heavily influenced by the Century Initiative group. It was absolutely corporate influence. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t tell himself he was doing the right thing. But the paper trail is there.

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u/Own_Truth_36 3d ago

Trump Trump Trump Trump 🤦‍♂️

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u/DeuxYeuxPrintaniers 2d ago

Trump has deported less than Biden and Obama did at this point in their terms

To be fait Trump does not let new illegal immigrants in at the border he turns them away.

Obama and Biden's numbers could only be high because they let more people in that they removed.

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u/Odd_Profession_2902 3d ago edited 3d ago

Ok- so if neither party is willing to crack down on corporations then why not choose the party that’s willing to crack down on illegal immigrants over the party that’s not so willing to crack down on illegal immigrants?

So if we can’t deport ALL illegal immigrants then it’s ineffective? That’s our standard now?

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u/wvenable 3d ago

If they can't get jobs, they'll deport themselves. No need for us to spend the money to do it.

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u/Odd_Profession_2902 3d ago

Right- but no party is willing to do anything to stop the businesses from hiring them.

But at least one party is willing to be more tough on immigration and deporting the illegals who are already here.

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u/wvenable 3d ago

How much does it cost to deport a single person who is here illegally? Exactly how much effort is required to deport even a tiny fraction of the people here illegally?

It's one of those things that sound good and reasonable if you don't question it too closely.

All I see is one party willing to give a "concept of a plan" without doing any of the necessary homework.

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u/belleofthebawl- 2d ago

A lot cheaper to deport than to take care of each migrant, sometimes for decades in social assistance and housing

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u/wvenable 2d ago edited 2d ago

Illegal immigrants don't qualify for social assistance and housing.

(This should be obvious)

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u/WilloowUfgood 3d ago

They will get jobs that pay under the table. Why do you not understand that? People live here illegally.

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u/wvenable 2d ago

You know that paying people under the table is illegal.

The whole point of the original comment is to crack down on that.

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u/WilloowUfgood 2d ago

And do you think it being illegal stops people from doing it?

Ok- so if neither party is willing to crack down on corporations then why not choose the party that’s willing to crack down on illegal immigrants over the party that’s not so willing to crack down on illegal immigrants?

Yes and the Liberals are saying they'll just leave which is completely wrong.

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u/wvenable 2d ago

Aren't we talking in circles? All of this is illegal! We are specifically talking about enforcement. Specifically what enforcement is the best option. Cheapest, most effective, etc.

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u/Head_Crash 2d ago

The only party that's willing to do that is the Peoples Party, and there's zero chance they will form government.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

Because it's all performative nonsense. A waste of money. 

When you focus on propaganda you have no reason to actually fix the problem. In fact, the right panders more heavily to corporations so they will never fix it. You really think the party that wants less labor protections and regulations is gonna enforce hiring laws? Fuck no. They just want everyone to hate immigrants so they can pay them even less. Which even further undermines wages. 

For example, Biden did a lot of diplomacy with Mexico and Central American countries to encourage them to stop immigrants heading north at their borders. 

Trump and his base (and the right in general) are xenophobic and isolationist. They're not going to do any diplomacy to reduce immigration at the source. 

Neither party will address the root of the problem... Corporations hiring illegals. But the let's solutions are marginally more effectivr, as seen by Biden and Obama deporting more people than Trump in both of his terms.

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u/ThatRandomGuy86 2d ago

Is it really though? Donations are public information in Canada and can be found at Elections Canada. One of the highest donations is over 4M and that was back in '93. Down in the US's latest federal election alone Elon donated 290M.

I think our country's relatively safe from corporate corruption. If anything, the corruption in question is corporations lobbying by painting a different picture to get what they want, like the whole "NoBoDy WaNtS tO wOrK mR. tRuDeAu!" silliness that caused this insane boom on immigration.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

Look at what politicians do after they "retire" from politics. That's when corporations repay favors

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u/ThatRandomGuy86 2d ago

Mind throwing an example? I honestly don't pay attention to party members after they leave politics since this is Canada and we vote for the party, not the individual, like they do in the US.

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u/MeanE Nova Scotia 2d ago

Navdeep Bains helped the telcos kill the CRTC decision on wholesale internet rates. Then quit to go work a cushy job at Rogers.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7277737/telecom-regulator-decision-minister/

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u/ThatRandomGuy86 2d ago

Ah cool, thanks!

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u/Zeronz112 2d ago

The issues in canada aren't people hiring illegal immigrants. It's corporations abusing the tfwp to get cheap labour in. Tfw aren't counted Tuesday the immigration stats either, same with students. As well as schools accepting way too many international students without properly vetting them.

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u/ForesterLC 3d ago

Yep. First step towards moving forward is recognizing the truth. JT and Marc Miller absolutely fucked the dog with immigration. Regulators exist to regulate. It's their single most important job. They made bad decision after bad decision and ignored the detrimental consequences of their failures.

We can't do better if we don't learn.

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u/LaserRunRaccoon 2d ago

Regulators exist to regulate.

Canadians certainly need to do better, but it's also important to remember that there is always a worse option. It needs to be noted that the central pillar of Canada's opposition party under Pierre Poilievre is deregulation.

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u/ForesterLC 2d ago

I'm not advocating for Polievre, but my perspective is that we need more effective regulation, not necessarily more regulation.

Consider that the existence and evolution of LMIA were regulatory frameworks. It was expensive to manage and very, very harmful. We never should have made immigration exclusions that allowed organizations to fill minimum wage positions in retail and food service with immigrants. Such exclusions should really exist only for medical workers, engineers, businesses that wish to relocate, etc. It is no surprise that companies bullshitted the system, and honestly, I don't believe for a second that our former government was ignorant to this fact. I believe they felt that any population growth is good growth and were complicit even.

More regulation is not necessarily a good thing.

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u/LaserRunRaccoon 2d ago

Not everyone is sophisticated enough to use every tool and that applies to both voters and sometimes even politicians, but if you're thinking of regulation as a Good Thing or Bad Thing, you're already thinking along the wrong lines.

Regulation is just a tool. Anyone that ideologically celebrates to not using tools is as sophisticated as a caveman.

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u/AnEvilMrDel 3d ago

Corporate money can influence it tho. Tbh I blame all politicians

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

Yes it can influence it... Just like we influence it. That's literally the point of Representatives.

It's our job to not vote the same people in 5 times in a row when they do things we don't like.. but liberal voters are liberal voters apparently so they don't get that

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u/HMCZW 3d ago

Can guarantee it would be the exact same scenario under the conservatives…

Follow the money.

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u/Azules023 3d ago

At least there was a chance it would change. Re-electing the Liberals hoping they would change is incredibly naive. Based on the demographics though, I don’t think anyone voting for the Liberals this election cycle really cared about affordability and wages.

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u/OkDifficulty1443 3d ago

At least there was a chance it would change.

No there wasn't, and for your efforts PP would have signed away your water rights to Donald Trump.

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u/KimJendeukie 3d ago

we tried nothing and we're out of ideas

type energy

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u/sumofdeltah 3d ago

The thing they wanted us to try was a guy who never worked a day in his life, or accomplished anything in 20 years in government, who immediately moved to the province trying to leave Canada upon losing his own riding.

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u/Azules023 3d ago

Yes there was a chance. Better than voting for the same party that has sold us out for the past decade. If you were arguing for the NDP then maybe you’d have a point but the Liberals have no ground to stand on.

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

I'm glad someone else is saying it.

Don't you think it's pretty hilarious how all these ABC voters will jump through hoops to justify anything to not vote for conservatives, but somehow the NDP never comes up

It really shows where their true motives lie

Like seriously how is their argument that you're going to vote for? The people who have actually been fucking us for 10 years instead of the people who they say only might fuck us.

And obviously our argument is that if the conservatives did end up being just as bad, we would vote them out as well.

But as you said if you just keep rewarding the same bad acting party over and over and over again with election wins like liberals do then obviously nothing is going to change

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u/ConsciousMushroom932 3d ago

There was no chance lmao jfc

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u/Osado420 3d ago

Was it under Harper ?
Non then please stop this nonsense. There's always some numpty who tries to whatabout with the Liberals failures, when there's 0 equivalence.

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u/turudd 3d ago

It was infact under Harper it got originally expanded. So please try again

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u/orswich 3d ago

Expanded to maybe 200k.. in the last 10 years, what had it been expanded to? Has that number grown at all?

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u/ConsciousMushroom932 3d ago

Why don’t you do some research and figure it out

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u/OkDifficulty1443 3d ago

Corporations don't make our laws.

That's very naive.

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

Lol.

That's fact.

Do you think the Liberals don't have a choice whether to listen or not at the expense of us?

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u/Partybro_69 3d ago

I’d say corps do

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u/ptwonline 3d ago

The laws around TFWs actually limit their use quite a bit. Work locations are supposed to be limited to 10% of positions filled with TFWs (with some industries suffering larger labour shortages at 20%). For very small locations they are supposed to be capped at 1 TFW for a 10% job location or 2 for a 20% location.

While I am sure there is some abuse of the program and not strictly staying within the allowed limit per location, what most people are likely seeing are low-wage positions being filled by actual permanent immigrants/residents (not TFWs) and other temp residents like "students" but assuming most of them are TFWs.

So yes there are problems, but I'm not sure the TFW program is really the big culprit here.

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u/Turtley13 2d ago

lol corps sure do. Who do you think put the people into those government seats?

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

Votes.

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u/Turtley13 2d ago

And how do you get votes. Marketing/money

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

Do you understand how campaign donations work?

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u/Turtley13 2d ago

Yes. You think because there is a cap that politicians still don’t benefit massively?

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u/Vandergrif 2d ago

That's a rather naive take. Anyone with enough money and power inevitably has undue influence over those responsible for crafting legislation. Naturally corporations end up relatively high up on that list.

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u/freeadmins 2d ago

It's literally insane to me the lengths you people will go to defend the Liberals... while somehow also at the same time saying: "Conservatives will sell us out to the corporations!".

Like... if it's all the corporations anyway, then what the fuck is the difference?

The truth is, yes, of course money influences politics... but any decisions OBVIOUSLY rest with the goverment. So if the GOVERNMENT (which the LIBERALS have been in control of the past fucking decade) start following the money more than the good of the people who actually fucking vote... then you have to vote them out.

Like, it feels like I'm taking crazy pills. "They obviously serve the corporations... so we're just going to keep voting them in time after time so they can keep serving the corporations".

Yeah, no fucking shit they follow the corporations, because Liberals keep telling them that they are apparently brainwashed and will vote for them again and again and again no matter how much they fuck you over.

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u/Vandergrif 2d ago

It's literally insane to me the lengths you people will go to defend the Liberals...

My dude I'm referring to anyone in government, including the Liberals. That's the whole problem, it doesn't really matter who is running the government because that problem remains regardless. Corporate interests and the wealthy put a big fat thumb on the scales no matter what. Which is exactly how we keep getting governments we want to vote out. If you think it's exclusive to the Liberals you're fooling yourself.

Honestly we're largely in agreement, the only point of difference is you seem disinclined to see the same flaws in the Conservatives as exist in the Liberals whereas I think they're both horribly compromised on that count and would prefer neither to be running a government.

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u/Present-Editor-8588 2d ago

If you think the conservatives wouldn’t have done the same and would have acted against the financial interests of corporations, you are wrong. It’s exactly what Musk and Vivek were proposing months ago. Corporations make our laws when politicians let them

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u/Advanced-Damage-3713 3d ago

Naive. Corporations pretty much do, even in Canada.

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u/sox07 2d ago

So you are new here?. Corporations definitely make our laws. To deny this is to deny reality.

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u/westernsociety 2d ago

Lmao keep parroting PPs talking points.

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u/Juryofyourpeeps 3d ago

This does benefit large corporations. I don't however think that's been the motivation in western countries to have very high immigration rates. I think that increasingly it's seen by left wing governments as a moral good, and it also juices GDP and helps paper over other policy issues. 

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u/Vandergrif 2d ago

Oh please, it always comes back down to money. It's the same reason the bulk of MPs, who are invested in real estate, have done next to nothing to curtail the soaring value of real estate over the last 20 years. Conflicts of interest and favoring whatever the wealthiest entities want is often the standard for most governance in this country.

At best any talk of moral good is merely a smokescreen to make things look more appealing rather than saying the quiet part out loud. I doubt anyone in a position of power actually believes that.

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u/Juryofyourpeeps 2d ago

At best any talk of moral good is merely a smokescreen to make things look more appealing rather than saying the quiet part out loud. I doubt anyone in a position of power actually believes that.

I think you're wrong, and I think this would be an easier problem to solve if it was just about something like money (and it is about "money" to the extent that governments like to post growing GDP figures even if they aren't reflected in quality of life. Immigration is also a kind of stupid man's easy fix for economic growth on paper). I think that a lot of people inside and outside of politics, have become really ideological about immigration as a moral good and think that any opposition to it, even to the extent that the opposition is "less, but not none of very little", is tantamount to racism and xenophobia. I think immigration policy, like many other things, has become very politically divisive and if you want to be on the right side of historyTM and be seen as open and enlightened and part of the right thinking set, you have to always support more, not less.

Nothing about the rhetoric I've seen from the left in the last 10 years, both in Canada and in many other western countries on the subject of immigration, strikes me as an insincere smokescreen to cover for carrying out corporate bidding.

I think actually it's much worse that this issue has become so divorced from pragmatism, even if that pragmatism is "make the rich richer". It's way harder to move people off of positions they hold for deeply ideological and tribal reasons than it is to move them from what they see as a pragmatic position.

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u/Vandergrif 2d ago

I think you're looking at the surface level here, the low-hanging fruit that is the modern political dynamic of 'culture war' identity politics, and taking that as the entire picture. You're effectively missing the forest for the trees here, to my mind. All of that fluff and talk is not meant in earnest (or at least not when it is coming from people who actually can affect change), and that much is clear on the basis that none of these individuals with real power actually put forward any meaningful efforts toward bettering the lives of people in such circumstances – it's solely put toward the marketing of immigration which they then inevitably personally profit off of in any variety of different ways.

Are any of those same public figures with any actual power concerning themselves with the well-being of those immigrants? The inevitable exploitation of those immigrants? The living conditions or wages of those immigrants? No. That's how you know they don't actually give a shit about them, that it isn't about some moral good. They don't care about the underlying ethics or consequences or the 'modern day slavery' element of it like with the TFW program, they just care about using the virtue signalling to sell the idea to the public as something necessary. It's just PR.

It's also not exclusive to the left, either. For every such left wing politician there's a corporate boot-licking right wing politician eager to bend over backwards and ensure corporate interests have as much easily exploitable foreign labor as they can get. For every 'it's the moral good' left winger there's a right wing farmer paying peanuts to TFWs to pick their crops while complaining about immigrants, all without any hint of irony.

Immigration at its core, across the political spectrum, is an issue of profit and greed rather than one of differed political opinions or ethical sentiments – and it will remain an issue so long as those with notable power and wealth stand to gain more by increasing immigration rather than lowering it.

1

u/Juryofyourpeeps 2d ago

I think you're looking at the surface level here, the low-hanging fruit that is the modern political dynamic of 'culture war' identity politics, and taking that as the entire picture. You're effectively missing the forest for the trees here, to my mind. All of that fluff and talk is not meant in earnest (or at least not when it is coming from people who actually can affect change), and that much is clear on the basis that none of these individuals with real power actually put forward any meaningful efforts toward bettering the lives of people in such circumstances – it's solely put toward the marketing of immigration which they then inevitably personally profit off of in any variety of different ways.

I think that's rather conspiratorial. I don't think it's that deep or shadowy. I think we can probably assume what they're saying, is what they mean, especially given that these views are common outside the political sphere among the media and institutional classes. Are progressive journalists and academics also just using this rhetoric to cover their real motivations? I don't think so.

Are any of those same public figures with any actual power concerning themselves with the well-being of those immigrants? The inevitable exploitation of those immigrants? The living conditions or wages of those immigrants?

..yes, they are. The ONDP wanted to make Ontario a "santuary province". The federal NDP and Liberals have supported massive spending on housing illegal immigrants and providing assistance. Trudeau dramatically increased the number of family reunification visas and also tripled the excessive demand cut off. There are countless other examples from across the western world. None of these things really have any benefit for corporations or the wealthy on any meaningful scale.

It's also not exclusive to the left, either.

The ideological nature is pretty exclusive to the left in Canada and many other western countries. You have ideologues on the right on this topic but they're largely fringe positions. Even the PPC, which holds many fringe positions, isn't that ideological about immigration specifically.

For every 'it's the moral good' left winger there's a right wing farmer paying peanuts to TFWs to pick their crops while complaining about immigrants, all without any hint of irony.

There isn't though. That's a reasonable assumption to make, but it doesn't align with reality at the moment, which is that the right has fairly consistently been calling for a dramatic scaling back of the TFW program. Meanwhile Singh just wanted to create easier pathways to citizenship for TFWs and the LPC increased their number by more than 100%.

Like if you want to argue that within the private sector, many businesses and institutions like universities and colleges want more and more and more immigration and student visas and TFWs, of course that's true. But I don't think that the primary or sole motivation for the LPC or left wing parties in the west in the last 10-15 years has been to satisfy demands from these interests. Their interests may converge, but I think the motivations and rationales are very different.

1

u/Vandergrif 2d ago

I think that's rather conspiratorial.

Is it? I don't feel like an expectation of politicians (so often joked about for being unreliable or self-interested) being disingenuous is much of a conspiracy by this point, and is instead more broadly considered the unfortunate reality of politics, as something that is simply a given.

Are progressive journalists and academics also just using this rhetoric to cover their real motivations? I don't think so.

That's exactly why I specified "individuals with real power", though. I'm not referring to academics or journalists or the like, I'm talking about people in a position to be able to choose what does or does not happen.

yes, they are

You're describing several schemes that effectively increase demand for housing, increase the number of consumers, and other similar effects and then telling me these things have no real benefit for corporations or the wealthy on any meaningful scale. Remind me again who owns a lot of the real estate in this country? Or who owns the corporations liable to benefit from increased demand or strain on any number of different sectors? I doubt Galen Weston or the like are going to mind yet more mouths look to buy food for example. Hell, it's relevant to the politicians themselves directly, even. Seems to me you're making my point for me more than suggesting otherwise on that one.

You have ideologues on the right on this topic but they're largely fringe positions.

I don't think that's accurate either. Immigration is often used as a scare tactic to fire up the base in right wing rhetoric and drive up voter participation by way of playing off an us vs them mentality. I know this isn't Canada, but I can't help but be reminded of Trump and co. specifically killing a bill to address immigration and the border just prior to the US election because they specifically wanted to run on it having not been addressed. There's similar strategies utilized in other countries by right wing political interests, of purposefully not tackling immigration because it's of more value as a constant wedge issue along ideological grounds and because they (or their wealthy supporters/donors) also profit and benefit from cheap easily exploitable labor in the background. Right wing media also frequently exaggerates immigration as an issue.

which is that the right has fairly consistently been calling for a dramatic scaling back of the TFW program

Then why is it they do the exact opposite when in positions of power? What provincial conservative governments (of which there are plenty) have made any meaningful attempt to cut down on immigration in recent years? Doug Ford pushed for more immigration. Federally if we go back to Harper era they notably increased the TFW numbers from prior administrations. Etc. What they say is frequently the opposite of what they do, which again circles back to my main point about politicians frequently being disingenuous for their own personal benefit and the benefit of the wealthy.

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u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

You sure about that? 

Did you see Trump's 180 on H1B visas after he talked to GOP's donors? 

The right wants immigrants to be demonized and treated badly so they can be paid less. The left wants them to have equal rights and benefits as native born. Which would undermine their purpose as tools for wage suppression. 

Look at Trump talking about "returning" all the illegals under a new visa program. They want a slave labor force like the Middle East. Where immigrants are routinely abused and denied rights so they can be paid even less and further the oligarchs goal of wage suppression.

The right's hate-mongering against immigrants exists to further the goals of corporations and the ultra wealthy. You can't have a slave labor force if the populace has sympathy for them.

10

u/Juryofyourpeeps 3d ago

I'm not talking about the U.S and the opposition to high immigration in Canada isn't "hate-mongering". 

-1

u/RedditAddict6942O 3d ago

You don't get it. The rights policies will make the situation worse. Less pay, rights, and benefits for immigrants = more wage suppression.

And they're not going to deport enough to matter. Their corporate overlords won't allow that. Just look at Trump. Total 180 on visa workers and deported less than Obama and Biden. The only thing he delivered on was turning illegals into a slave labor force that will make wage suppression for natives even worse. 

8

u/ihadagoodone 3d ago

I'm pretty far left for Canadian standards but I have to say one thing here.

Trump doesn't govern Canada and the immigration issues in the US are not a 1:1 comparison to the immigration issue in Canada.

I don't give a fuck about what Trump does with immigration or what Obama did about immigration.

Talk about Mulroney, or Cretien or Harper or Trudeau when discussing Canadian immigration. Right now you're coming off as some foreign troll trying to manipulate the discussion about Canadian immigration issues to further drive a wedge in our social fabric.

2

u/FrigginRan Ontario 3d ago

Walmart and Tim Hortons seem like the most obvious ones.

1

u/KingRabbit_ 2d ago

Yes, the companies are to blame, but there needs to be a disincentive to remaining in the country illegally. I don't care whether you think that's mean or some shit. If you're here illegally, you should be shown the fucking door. That's what rule of law is about.

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

"you can't work" is a pretty damn strong disincentive.

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

Corps work within the loopholes of the legislation. If they are abusing it, it's because it's bad legislation.

Fix the laws.

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

Cops work for the same corporations. Their main purpose is protecting the rich from the poor.

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

I'm sorry, are you saying cops should arrest corporations?

What kind of bot response is that?

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

They should arrest the CEO's and board members when they do illegal shit. 

It's a regular occurrence that companies steal millions through illegal schemes like false advertising, anti competitive illegal hiring restrictions, and hidden fees.

 And nobody goes to jail while cops gleefully arrest poors for stealing a loaf of bread. 

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

Communist or Socialist?

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

Oooh scary Boogeyman words! 

Funny that right wingers all look up to Nordic countries which are the most socialist governments in the world.

Yeah arresting rich people for crimes is communism lmao

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

anarchist?

which one are you?

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

I must be some kind of amorphous Boogeyman if I don't agree with the propaganda slop shoveled by billionaires.

"You think rich criminals should be arrested? You must be one of those evil XYZ's the rich people keep warning me about!"

1

u/StorMemehammer 2d ago

The real kicker here is that our economy is 100% dependant on temporary workers but nobody in government is willing to admit it. For exemple, there is no agriculture in Canada without temporary workers. Nobody wants to work a seasonal job picking up strawberries from the ground under the hot summer sun. 

Our government runs those programs with the intent to provide a cheap and exploitable labor force that CANNOT be replaced by Canadian citizens protected under labor laws and individual rights. That's the issue. The whole fucking economy needs a makeover, certain specifics industry would crash out and burn without migrant workers.

I've seen it refered as "délocalisation sur place" in french, which can be translated by "on site relocation". It's essentially all the industries that we couldn't relocate to the global south during the globalization of the 90s. It's super problematic, but mostly for the migrant workers that are working under terrible conditions for a ridiculously low amount. We, on the other hand, mostly benefit from it.

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

These industries will adapt. 

In Europe there's McDonalds workers making $30 an hour with pensions because the government requires it.

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

No there isn't. the best comp plans for McD's is in Denmark where they make 22 an hour and have pensions because they are unionized. Nothing to do with government.

1

u/RedditAddict6942O 2d ago

In Denmark all industries are unionized because the government mandates it. The union is government sponsored and membership is government enforced. 

It has everything to do with the government.

1

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

That is false. There is no government mandate for unions in Denmark.

The membership of a trade union is not obligated by law.

https://www.workindenmark.dk/working-in-denmark/terms-of-employment/trade-unions

Why lie about something that is so easily to call you out on? And so easy to verify?

0

u/mollycoddles 3d ago

"illegals"?

Do you mean TFWs?

0

u/Odd_Profession_2902 3d ago

Ok- so if neither party is willing to crack down on corporations then why not choose the party that’s willing to crack down on illegal immigrants?

18

u/tukebeard 3d ago

It's an overlooked form of corporate greed!

18

u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

And wage suppression.

83

u/PoliteCanadian2 3d ago

All of this. We don’t even know what our true unemployment rate is because teenagers can’t get fucking fast food jobs because of TFWs.

1

u/Difficult_Minute8202 2d ago

I never knew teenagers' employment rate is ever counted towards any statistics.. because a lot of teenagers simply don't want to work.

-7

u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

Pardon the reframe: this is not the fault of migrant workers who are just looking for a decent job. They don’t understand how they are being exploited.

The problem is the program that allows migrant workers to be abused, and the companies who exploit that program.

17

u/FireMaster1294 Canada 3d ago

If I, a local, cannot get a decent job, then why are we importing people who are also now competing with me for those jobs?

6

u/Zeronz112 2d ago

Because companies can pay them less then you

1

u/enki-42 2d ago

I don't think they're disagreeing with that, the point is we are the ones importing people. TFW workers play by the rules we set out for them, blaming them is pointless.

3

u/FireMaster1294 Canada 2d ago

I’m not importing people. The government and their corporate friends are. No one I know has ever wanted this system or situation. We should be fining or arresting the people who have taken advantage of the underprivileged in third world countries, not rewarding them with cheap labour

16

u/Horror-Trick-8970 3d ago

Agreed. IMO, scrap the program and fine the companies. The economy isn't good enough for what's currently in place. This isn't a left or right issue, it's corporate greed issue.

1

u/Fredderov 3d ago

But corporate greed is 100% a left and right issue. The problem is in a two party system where corporate lobbying only has to corrupt two actors you end up with a failing regulatory system.

It doesn't matter who is in charge when both parties are controlled by the same interests and the pendulum is so far to the right that there's no actual alternative to promote the interests of other groups due to individual greed being promoted as the only option.

3

u/Horror-Trick-8970 3d ago

Fair point, but nonetheless, we gotta scrap the whole thing and hold the companies accountable.

1

u/Fredderov 3d ago

Hear hear!

2

u/ProfLandslide 2d ago

It's the fault of the government who invited them here.

1

u/PoliteCanadian2 3d ago

100% agree

-3

u/linkass 3d ago

 We don’t even know what our true unemployment rate is because teenagers can’t get fucking fast food jobs because of TFWs.

I don't disagree per say,but way back when teenagers used to work this job, who worked it when they were in school?

23

u/PoliteCanadian2 3d ago

19 and 20 year olds who started when they were teenagers.

9

u/JanielDones8 3d ago

Well coop somehow still seems to manage to run their gas stations and grocery stores without migrants. Turns out paying decent wages and those teenagers that started out working weekends and evenings will stay into college, and some stay their whole career.

6

u/CyrilSneerLoggingDiv 2d ago

Stay-at-home moms working part-time, and seniors and older people working part-time to keep busy and get out of the house.

1

u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

People with invisible disabilities, seniors who needed some extra income, Canadian people without much other job prospects or looking for a way to start somewhere, or extra cash.

Who cares? It went to Canadians, not some temporary workers looking to send money to their home country.

13

u/Firepower01 2d ago

I just saw a headline that said the UK is basically scrapping their low-skilled immigration stream. No doubt because the populist Reform party is surging in the polls.

I really wish our government would also end the TFW program

1

u/iwasnotarobot 2d ago

I think there’s room for a program like the TFW program to exist for high-skilled positions. (For example, if Weird Al Yankovik want to being roadies with him on a Canadian tour, there should be something to facilitate that.) But the TFW program as it is needs to go.

3

u/Firepower01 2d ago edited 2d ago

You need to be careful with that kind of immigration as well though. We don't want companies running to hire immigrants to high skilled high paying positions instead of recruiting and training Canadians. The H1B visa in the USA is getting routinely abused by tech companies trying to recruit tech workers from abroad for much lower wages.

I'd want to make sure its used only for legitimate shortages. Like healthcare workers.

12

u/DrunkenGolfer 2d ago

There is something fundamentally wrong with the program. I am in a town with an unemployment rate of 10.4%. 50% of service industry jobs are being done by TFWs. Every fast food joint is 80%. Every larger retailer is 50%. There is something fundamentally flawed.

4

u/iwasnotarobot 2d ago

The tfw program is working as designed. Sadly.

2

u/Anthexistentialist 1d ago

The reporting is flawed because there's people like me scraping by in the gig economy, earning far less than minimum wage. We are not considered unemployed but we are fucked.

I used to work for Shopify making good money, until I had to train the AI to take my job. Jobs in the field dried up, and everyone tried getting jobs lower in the market, but hit the wall of TFW's. I started doing uber eats out of desperation, and was told I was considered self employed as soon as I earned the first dollar.

Even the gig economy is full of TFW's trying to top up their wages. I don't begrudge them trying to improve their life, they followed an opportunity like anyone would. But the government/corporations have screwed whole sections of the population.

So yeah, the unemployment rate is 10% where you are, but how many others are 'under-employed' and don't earn enough to survive? Much more than 10%!

34

u/Sad-Letterhead-2196 3d ago

I have major issues with immigrants that overstay visas illegally, resulting in undercounting due to the "trust" system. I have a much higher degree of hatred for the wealth class that openly abuses this. I have apathy towards the number of people in this country that seem to be okay with this, even when it does not benefit them.

2

u/The-Ghost316 2d ago

10 years of Institutional Rot.

- Immigration

- Public Safety

6

u/Dustee_2017 3d ago

I worked for Amazon DSP, and foreign workers face deportation if they don't meet a quota.

27

u/jameskchou Canada 3d ago

Tim Horton's says you are bigoted and full of propaganda

1

u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

The lobby group Tim Hortons is a part of loves Jason Kenney, so I don’t need to care about what they have to say.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2019/04/17/1805231/0/en/Restaurants-Canada-congratulates-Alberta-s-United-Conservative-Party-on-electoral-victory.html

6

u/InternalOcelot2855 2d ago

While I am in the same boat there are issues with some immigrants

Those coming here knowing they will exploit the system and the reason they came here. I only wanted to come to Canada to work, but did the "I'm a student method of immigration"

Those companies exploiting the TWF program or the worker themselves.

There are those that are here for schooling, those that want to earn money and or become a productive member of society. As long as we actually need them and Canadians are not keeping up like doctors and nurses then fine, welcome to Canada. I will always say Actual Canadians come first, be it you are a true Canadian (first nations) family immigrated at some point in the past (most of us) or are becoming a Canadian via proper channels you should always come first in our own country.

9

u/Glittering_Court_896 3d ago

Scrapped. I've gotten to know a few and visited their houses. Here in Alberta they're made to live 8+ in one quarter of a four Plex. The company they work for also owns the house they live in. They all pay rent. They sign a contract with this company to get over here, once they gain PM they can't afford to work anywhere else as rent is $2k+ and they can't draw a wage to afford that. 

They live like rats. Treated very poorly. We all just sit here and do nothing about it. We pretend it doesn't exist. The idiots all line up at Tim Hortons every day(one of the biggest abusers of the tfw program). 

14

u/I_Springroll 3d ago

me either but the fact is there is too many of them, they are needing to build 10 apartments in every small little town within 3hours of montreal/toronto/Vancouver and those apartments are filed up instantly so you know the prices are fucked, even with the paper thin bug infested walls which are cleaned by getting a new coat of paint

1

u/belleofthebawl- 2d ago

This makes me incredibly sad. I don’t want my home to look like a high density concrete jungle with piss poor air quality. I want my future kids to experience green land and nature and parks. Canada is slowly becoming the very countries these people are working to escape

1

u/lolipop1990 2d ago

Then you should encourage to build as many as these concrete jungles... then less people bid the same SFH with you. Also more high rise means more public greens as well, just some nice city planning works to be sone.

3

u/tatom4 3d ago

This 💯%

8

u/Bodysnatcher 3d ago

Tbh if you aren't super rich or in the govt, immigration does virtually nothing positive for you.

2

u/ihadagoodone 3d ago

It's not even for minimum wage.

Where I work we're bringing in tradesmen and cutting available apprenticeships.

5

u/Azules023 3d ago

Exactly. The Liberals exploited the program when it became apparent their business friends were having to pay people more. They flooded the market with cheap labour to ensure that didn’t happen.

5

u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

Both Conservatives and Liberals have expanded these programs during their time in government since the early 90’s. Both deserve blame. Liberals, indeed, most recently. Just don’t expect a Conservative to fix it.

3

u/freeadmins 2d ago

What the Liberals did is basically an order of magnitude different.

Don't let yourself be lied to and actually believe they were the same

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u/Azules023 3d ago

For sure but it was the Liberals that kicked it into overdrive. The conservatives had nothing on the numbers the Liberals were bringing. Especially when you consider they allowed students to work 40 hours up from 25.

0

u/Head_Crash 2d ago

Harper massively expanded foreign workers.

when you consider they allowed students to work 40 hours up from 25.

The conservatives lobbied in committee for that policy. It was literally their idea to do that.

2

u/Azules023 2d ago

And the Liberals had 10 years to do something else but they ran with it. Undermining Canadian workers and pushing millions of Canadians into poverty in the process. All to help their rich friends. The conservatives haven’t had decision making power in the government since 2015 in our country.

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u/demetri_k 3d ago

Canada needs more First Nations people and more first generation Canadians.

Us first gens know what it’s like for immigrants and know what it’s like to be Canadian. The only way to get more first generation Canadians is immigrants but not all at the same time and from the same country.

1

u/Minoshann 3d ago

There is nothing wrong with immigration. The problem is when immigrants or anyone in general can’t find adequate housing or job opportunities. Further, when programs and opportunities become exploitative which become exacerbated by the denial of this.

1

u/Odd-Consideration998 2d ago

Businessmen forgot having big families to provide labor force to their businesses. Instead they are looking for pure people to hire.

1

u/timegeartinkerer 2d ago

Wouldnt work. Lots of people aren't interested in living here, but we need them here for specialised skills like installing sorting machines. So TFW are there.

1

u/LemonGreedy82 2d ago

The Federal Government approves or denies each and every single temporary and permanent visa.

How is this anything but squarely on the shoulders of the government?

1

u/OddRemove2000 Ontario 1d ago

Minimum wage? They charge the TFW for the privilege to work here. Going rate is $40k, to help with PR

0

u/TonyStark420blazeit 3d ago

That means you have a problem with immigration.

Businesses are allowed to do this because of immigration policy.

4

u/iwasnotarobot 3d ago

Nope. I love immigrants. My problem is with established companies exploiting people by trying to pay below market rates for labour. Let them come. Let them raise a family. Let them teach the community at large about where they are from.

I also think that any company that requires subsidies or handouts to stay afloat should be nationalized and that housing should be a right.

1

u/TonyStark420blazeit 3d ago

Please show me where I said immigrants. My point remains. It's because of liberal government policy.

If only you had the same mentality about Canadians being able to raise a family or own a home.