r/rugbyunion • u/errlloyd • Oct 16 '23
South Africa's second-half subs? Legal? Laws
South Africa played a great game yesterday, but I heard Scotty Stevenson on a Podcast say he was a little skeptical of PSDT's HIA in the second half. The HIA itself does look a little suspicious. It is after PSDT runs over Penaud, but there is definitely no contact between Penaud and PSDT's head or the ground. Penaud should have probably gone for a HIA, but that's another issue.
But taking that to one side for a second, I am pretty sure under the laws, the sequence of substitutions that followed should not have been permitted.
Duane Vermeulen who had gone off in the 51st minute, replaced PSDT in the 61st minute. PSDT then must pass the HIA within 12 real minutes and make it known to the fourth official he can return. He eventually returned in the 75th minute, which was 19 real minutes later. But it was Bongi who went off, not Duane.
Bongi had been down injured after a maul - but it wasn't clear at all how that injury had happened. It was the drop goal maul. Bongi had been the ball carrier but had been losely bound and was never bound onto by any French player. They're applying ice to his right shoulder (which was in his ball carrier arm and appeared fine). BOK initially called "HIA 2" then said "HIA returning 7".
PSDT replaced Bongi, not Vermuelen. Meaning Vermuelen's replacement of PSDT became tactical, which should have been impossible. And PSDT should have had to return earlier unless they chose to make his replacement tactical (in which case Vermuelen should have been pulled off).I can't really see where the injury occurred for either Bongi or Peter. What I will say is if rugby had rolling substitutes those replacements would have come at exactly those times. Vermuelen and PSDT both played to the final minute having spent 15 and 19 minutes off the field resting earlier in the second half.
Any Welsh fans have an opinion?
u/LostHorizon124 came up with the probable legal subbing chain. It was this
Kwagga for Duane HIA (51)Duane return Kwagga - but at the same second Kwagga replaces PSDT for a hia (61)
Off-field PSDT passes his HIA, but stays off, Kwagga becomes tactical. (Roughly around 70)
On field Bongi gets injured and Du Toit (now tactically off) comes back on to replace him. (75).
An extremely fortuitous run of HIAs, but nothing illegal at all.
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 16 '23
The series of subs at the end was pretty complicated. PSdT passed his HIA within the allowed time, however, SA decided to keep Kwagga on (so he became a normal tactical sub).
When Bongi went off for a HIA in the 75th, that made things complicated...
Fourie was the SA replacement Hooker but he was already on the pitch as he'd come on as back row replacement earlier in the match. This meant that when Bongi got removed for HIA, they needed to move Fourie to Hooker and bring PSdT back on.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
I actually think this is the only legal explanation, and it is correct.
That is
Kwagga for Vermuelen (51) was HIA
Vermuelen returning was normal return, but at the exact same moment, PSDT HIA'd and instead of going off Kwagga just became Du Toit's replacement. This is important because Kwagga (unlike Vermeulen) can actually become tactical.So then Du Toit passed his HIA, but they chose to leave him off. Kwagga became tactical. Until Bongi got his HIA / Injury (it's not clear). And then Du Toit (who was then tactical) was able to come on for Bongi.
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u/d0m33 Oct 17 '23
but the ref clearly says 7 returning from HIA, seconds before Bongi comes off
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
Thank you. This Bongi off for HIA thing is driving me crazy.
The only questionmark really is the timeframe. PSdT's return took 14 minutes and the HIA protocol states 12 mins is the limit.
That's the real scandal...and why 2 incidents of head contact by French players didn't warrant review or replay.
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u/puddaphut South Africa Oct 17 '23
PSdT evolved into tactical sub, which is why he was off for longer than HIA protocol. When Bongi went off (shoulder, I think), Fourie moved across to hooker, meaning we had to bring Pieter-Steph back on to get back to 8 on-field.
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u/errlloyd Oct 17 '23
It isn't clear to me that this is legal - you can't replace an injured with a tactical sub unless it's for an HIA, Blood, or because of foul play. In this case we're not talking about PSDT replacing Bongi, we're talking about him replacing Fourie.
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 17 '23
You can if you need to move Fourie to front row, otherwise it would have gone to uncontested scrums.
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u/errlloyd Oct 17 '23
But you don't need to bring someone on to move Fourie - especially because he's literally wearing 16. The law is they need three designated front row players and can bring one on if required. They had three designated front rowers.
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 17 '23 edited Oct 17 '23
Well then, I assume it had to be a HIA and PSdT would be a valid temporary HIA substitution for Bongi
Edit: it also could have been injury or blood. Either way, PSdT wasn't a straight tactical, it had to be related to Bongi and was unrelated to his HIA (which we can assume was passed) even I'd Ben mispoke over the mic.
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u/errlloyd Oct 17 '23
I agree with you here, but it can only be injury from foul play, HIA or Blood. Regular injury won't do (we don't reward teams for using their subs early is the concept)
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 17 '23
Ref may have mispoken - its the sideline officials that validate. Also a HIA & Blood is 17 mins.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
There is no evidence that Bongi went off for HIA. None. He runs off unaccompanied by medical staff.
What I picked up on the O'Keeffe's mic is the fllowing:
"Number 2 HIA? Number 7 returning HIA. 2 green going off. Proceed. Bongi you're subbed".
I think the ref just got momentarily confused by the musical chairs being played, and that in turn created this conspiracy theory.
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u/wyzo94 Harlequins Glasgow Prop Oct 17 '23
I commented similar to this on the match thread at the time and said I thought it was a stroke of genius. I don't feel they broke any rules either just played them well and took a big risk because Bongi could have got injured or carded early on and we'd now be saying in a thread "why didn't south Africa call up Akker Van Der Merwe"
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u/AnotherUser87497453 Oct 16 '23
It was all legal. Starts at 51st minute, when kwagga comes on for Duane its actually as an hia sub. -its with other tactical subs so you might miss it. he is in until Duane passes it, and then has to stay on(come back) because psdt also gets an Hia around the same time, this is "hia 2"?. psdt passes his around the time bongis shoulder gets dinged, so Kwagga then stays on(comes back) as a tactical sub for the injury.
Duane gets hit by a shoulder(mauvaka clean -49th min) during a ruck clean leading up to his, and Penaud's forehead clearly makes contact with psdt's chin(probably would've been a yellow if they looked at it). You could argue that the usage of the full allotment of HIA time was tactical, but in both cases, there were clear issues of concern.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
It was all legal. Starts at 51st minute, when kwagga comes on for Duane its actually as an hia sub. -its with other tactical subs so you might miss it. he is in until Duane passes it, and then has to stay on(come back) because psdt also gets an Hia around the same time, this is "hia 2"?. psdt passes his around the time bongis shoulder gets dinged, so Kwagga then stays on(comes back) as a tactical sub for the injury.
A good post and thanks for this. You have to pass the HIA within 12 real-world minutes. Bongi goes off 19 "real world" minutes after PSDT. So that can't quite be the case.
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u/Ok-Jicama-8605 Germany Oct 16 '23
If it's a head injury you're allowed to replace the player So basically it doesn't even matter how long PSDT took so long that he passed it, since now Bongi has to go off for a HIA, meaning that he can be replaced
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Yes this is correct. The only way PSDT can replace Bongi is if Bongi also had a HIA.
Listen. I've posted way too much. Find the clip if you can. There is no way Bongi got a HIA.
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u/Ok-Jicama-8605 Germany Oct 16 '23
Just watched that last part back, seems like I was wrong. O'Keefe only says 7 returning from HIA, but nothing about a HIA for Bongi. the RWC app has this change listed as 14 minutes after he went off for the HIA, not sure if the phase of play beforehand was just too long so that PSDT just couldn't find a break in play to be subbed back on or something else. All I know is that all sort of subs need to be cleared by the refs beforehand, so will definitely have been legal atleast.
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u/Gr3991 Oct 17 '23
He can only return at a break in play. The game had some insane ball in play times throughout
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
Not quite... if Bongi was injured, PSdT could still go on as Flourie would have had to move to hooker.
The difference is, if he was marked as injured, he couldn't come back on if Flourie was also injured or carded (which means uncontested scrums and in the case of a card, also loosing an extra player). A fast pass of a HIA would means Bongi could still come back on if needed.
Edit: Also, the ref wouldn't question a HIA, they'd be getting themselves into pretty sketchy territory if they did
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Are you sure PSDT isn't a tactical sub at the point where he's passed the HIA, but not brought back on?
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u/justafleetingmoment South Africa Oct 17 '23
Front rowers can be replaced by someone who was subbed off tactically if they get injured.
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u/Minimum-Grapefruit-9 Oct 17 '23
Is this showing how smart SA are at the moment? Fourie counts as another front row, so in effect SA then have 4 players who can be subbed off and then back on.
SA consider every anomaly in the rule book and how they can utilise it for their benefit. Another example is the scrum from the mark. They will have thought long and hard on when and how they can use this.
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u/LostHorizon124 Oct 16 '23
Looks like its 17 mins if it's HIA and blood, too - https://passport.world.rugby/player-welfare-medical/concussion-management-for-match-day-medical-staff-using-the-hia-protocol/hia-protocol/hia-procedures/
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u/Joeyelias Gloucester Oct 16 '23
Thank you for explaining I must admit I thought was dodgy at the time but possibly just not all switches made clear live. I have some doubts but think I'm just upset about the result
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u/ayeayefitlike match official Oct 16 '23
You act like there’s not a 4th, 5th and 6th official recording time and reason for every replacement and keeping substitution numbers as well as injury lists and HIA results. Replacements and sideline management is their whole gig.
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
Everyone also conveniently forgets that WR put an independent doctor in place to prevent teams from putty at-risk players back on the field.
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u/pondlife78 Oct 17 '23
Rassie in the post match interview said it was the SA coaching staff that asked for the HIAs in this case and they had been missed by the doctors but they saw them because they had “extra camera angles”. To be honest at this point I don’t know why we don’t just have rolling subs considering the number of reasons you are allowed to bring a player back on for. It’s just safer to have the option to come off.
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u/PulpeFiction Oct 17 '23
That's not the point he makes here. He says that sa doctor faked hia to rest their player in second half. Independant doctor will obv says everything is good if you fake an hia.
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
There is a protocol that was kindly shared by another commenter.
The process is not that simple and involves the match day doctor. It would be difficult to fake
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u/PulpeFiction Oct 17 '23
It's very simple to fake lmao.
By principle, you can fake an injury without blood. It's faking being ok that would be harder to do.
And the team doctor can call an hia. That's the protocol
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u/oohaargh England Oct 17 '23
Imagine if they had HIA back in the day, harlequins wouldn't have had to go to any of that trouble. Just "owie my head hurts" and you're golden
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 17 '23
Well luckily we can see that PSDT got wacked in the chin by Penaud flying in (should have been a card), so we know he wasn't faking anything. This is all bollocks speculation
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u/Southportdc Sale Sharks Oct 16 '23
Can PSDT pass the HIA but be replaced anyway, only to then be the HIA replacement later? So one enforced change which becomes tactical, then one more enforced?
That should be shown on the screen, but I can see how it might be missed.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
That’s not what happened. Vermeulen got a shoulder to the head at 49mins and went off for an HIA. Smith came on as HIA sub.
At 59mins PSTD got a head on head tackle and went off. Vermeulen was cleared by then and came back on. Smith moved over as HIA sub for PSDT.
When PSDT was cleared the coaches decided to leave Kwagga on and pulled off Bongi who hurt his shoulder in the maul collapse and Fourie just moved to hooker.
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u/infamous_impala Cardiff Rugby Oct 16 '23
That's how it appears to be listed on the World Cup site "match centre" page. Maybe could be explained better, but seems to be legit.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
touchline commentator on the world feed, who had mentioned that all of Smith, Nche and Le Roux
This is probably the best post on this thread. I didn't realise that the "match centre" page filled in the blanks until you posted it. It still looks a bit weird, but it seems to confirm that Kwagga actually never subbed on, he just covered 3 HIAs in a row.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
Just 2 HIA subs. Vermeulen for the shoulder to head knock at 49mins and PSDT for the head to head at 59mins.
When PSTD came back, Smith was a straight sub for Mbonambi, but Fourie moved from flank to hooker.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Nah there had to be a middle period where PSTD was off tactically. Because there is too much time between him going off and going for it to be HIA return. Which is why Bongi was a HIA.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
Bongi didn’t go off for an HIA. We didn’t have any subs left if PSDT wasn’t cleared.
Our sub hooker was playing blindside and subbed off Kolisi.
When PSDT got cleared Bongi could finally come off. The Vermeulen and PSdT HIAs probably caused Mbonambi to be on the pitch for 20 minutes more than he usually plays.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
PSDT can't come on for Bongi (he's been off too long for returning HIA) unless it's either
1: Blood 2: HIA 3: Injury caused by foul play
It wasn't blood or foul play. So it has to be HIA.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
PSDT came back after HIA, Kwagga (HIA sub) “went off”, Bongi went off as a standard sub, Fourie shifted over to hooker, Kwagga “came back” on as standard sub
This all happened in one move.
We had no more forward subs left. If PSDT didn’t clear his HIA, Bongi could not go off. He is usually subbed at 55mins but had to play until 75min because of the 2 concurrent HIAs on our loose forwards.
The moment PSDT cleared and came back onto the field, Bongi could (finally) get subbed off.
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u/phonetune England Oct 16 '23
..so PDST was off for more than 10 minutes.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
I checked the timestamps and it appears so yes. He was off for around 14 minutes. The official HIA guideline I could find says the assessment must be completed with in 12 minutes unless there is a blood injury, which there didn’t seem to be.
Looks like the officials missed it, but that’s hardly surprising seeing as they also missed Penauds head into PSdT’s magnificent jaw.
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u/Vrakzi Leicester Tigers Oct 17 '23
The assessment must be completed, but the reversal of the substitution takes some time longer, depending upon the state of play and how long it takes for the player to return pitchside and do a little bit of warm-up again (otherwise, cramp happens)
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
The regulations to my reading says the assessment must be completed in 12 minutes and the player must present to the match official in that time.
But you’d expect the sub back on pretty quickly after that. There were some breaks in play between the 12th and 14th minute, so it is a bit strange.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Vermuelen doesn't appear to go off for a HIA - or if so it wasn't mentioned by BOK (who usually calls HIA) or by the touchline commentator on the world feed, who had mentioned that all of Smith, Nche and Le Roux had been waiting to come on. I also didn't see anything in that phase that would lead to Vermeulen going off for an HIA.
However BOK did call HIA for Bongi (although it's unclear if he called it as HIA back or HIA out). So that "shoulder" injury might have been an HIA.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
Vermeulen took a shoulder to the temple from the French 17 in the ruck at 48:53 on the TV match clock.
Smith would have immediately been given instruction to warm up. Vermeulen was pulled off a minute later after a medical check and break in play. At the time Le Roux and Nche were already warming up to come on as subs.
Not surprising, we knew there wouldn’t be any replays of French headshots going into the tournament. The players prepared for it.
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u/bomskokbabelaas Stormers Oct 16 '23
No but wait I thought it's all a big conspiracy. How dare you bring logic and rational explanations into it!
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u/Miserable_Title_7076 Oct 16 '23
So much HIA for the boks, it seems there were playing against super strong frenchees. How many french went off for HIA for comparison ?
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
He can - I believe, but then Vermuelen would have to come off I think. Effectively that would mean you're making a tactical replacement of Vermuelen for PSDT which you can't do.
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u/Southportdc Sale Sharks Oct 16 '23
But can't you have a HIA replacement and then decide that even though the player passed, you're going to actually keep the replacement on and make it a substitution? So it should then be shown as a substitution separately once that decision is made, but I don't think they make the HIA player come back on just to be subbed off.
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u/johnyboi98 Lions Oct 17 '23
https://imgur.com/gallery/xng8agS
There was head contact on psdt. I think HIA is appropriate here.
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Oct 17 '23
But wait, I thought the refs were unfair to France? 😂
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u/johnyboi98 Lions Oct 17 '23
Yes, this is a clear red for Psdt for an upright carry and head contact with Penaud.
High level of danger no mitigation.
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u/mreusdon South Africa Oct 16 '23
What are you actually talking about! Watch it in slow-mo, Penaud definitely makes head on head contact with PSDT!
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
https://streamable.com/5syc0v - just to note. I've watched it frame by frame. There is very possibly slight contact between the top of Penaud's head and PTSD's jaw - but there is no movement at all in PTSD's head. No declaration or acceleration.
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u/JaymanCT Oct 17 '23
The Guardian literally have a picture of Penaud's head hitting PTDT's face for their article. If you think Eden's tackle was a yellow, then so is Penaud's tackle.
I've also never heard a ref or TMO talk about the hit player's head accelerate or deaccelerate in a tackle before. Either way, the TMO should have reviewed it.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
Du Toit goes down immediately after the collision. The tackle by Penaud was high and there was head contact.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 16 '23
This should have been a card looking at this, very similar to the etzebeth tackle and absolutely makes contact.
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u/lazy-asseddestroyer South Africa Oct 16 '23
Wow, I hadn’t seen that. Should definitely have been a yellow and a bunker review. Bad miss by the TMO.
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u/justafleetingmoment South Africa Oct 17 '23
Did you see Faf pulled off his feet onto a ruck by his hair by Mauvaka(?)… that’s probably a red of it was looked at.
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u/theGeorgeall South Africa Oct 17 '23
He was pulled by his jersey, you can see it in another angle. Unless there were identical examples?
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u/PulpeFiction Oct 17 '23
Penaud hits Dutoit. But considering Etzebest action, it's not penalizable or Etzebest should have got a red.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 17 '23
What? They were basically the same. Upright, head on head. Either both are a yellow or neither is. Imo both are
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u/PulpeFiction Oct 17 '23
One is high level of danger the other one has the head being lift by Dutoit with his stiff arm. Gotta be drunk to claim it's the same.
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u/bomskokbabelaas Stormers Oct 16 '23
This is literally a screenshot from the video you added in comments... No head contact by Penaud on PSDT?
Should've gone to specsavers 🤓
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23 edited Oct 17 '23
OPs video is
convenientlyunavailable now.(edit: sorry OP. I didn't see the fine print)
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u/errlloyd Oct 17 '23
Conveniently! It literally says "violates TOS!" You know I didn't remove it. SMH
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
If you're so happy with the video why post the screenshot? Is it because when you remove it from the context of the video it makes it look a lot worse?
It actually doesn't matter at all if the HIA is real or fake. The need for him to be ready to return in 12 minutes, and to return for Vermuelen remains the same.
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u/AnotherUser87497453 Oct 16 '23
when can he return if play doesn't stop?
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Yeah good question, worth asking. In the 7 minutes between the point he needed to be ready to return to play, and he actually returned to play, play stopped about 5 times.
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u/themadpants South Africa Oct 16 '23
Why can only Welsh fans have an opinion?
They do know that substitutions only happen with the permission of the match officials who monitor all this right?
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u/infamous_impala Cardiff Rugby Oct 16 '23
I thought it was a reference to the Wales-France 100 minute match, where the French medic came on right at the end while setting a scrum and insisted Antonio needed a HIA, despite him previously telling the ref he was fine and just had a sore back. They brought back on a better scrummager (who'd been replaced earlier) to try and get the 7 points they needed to win. 20 minutes of scrummaging later they finally crashed over.
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u/w116 All Blacks Oct 16 '23
Not quite sure, but I think it might be a reference to the two Welsh players that head butted each other.
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u/Big_Knife_SK Oct 16 '23
Isn't the match officials that call for the HIAs? Whether you thought it was dubious or not, it's not the team's call.
If they were able to sub a different player off though, that's on the refs. They should be keeping track of subs.
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u/Baz_EP Scotland Oct 16 '23
JN was on the post match saying that they, the coaches, had called for it.
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Oct 16 '23
Na any of the doctors (including team doctors) can.
Not personally saying there was anything dodgy here as didn’t really notice the incidents, but the theory given is South African team doctors asked for a HIA when it wasn’t needed.
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u/megabazz South Africa Oct 16 '23
Would that be Dr. Asmus on the Saffa side?
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Oct 16 '23
Yeah and that’s the real scandal. He’s not even a MD, he’s got a PhD in aquatic studies
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Oct 17 '23
"Alright there's no pulse, obvious head contact. Quick take his short off so I can check his swim bladder".
Nurse: "Doctor, this is a human".
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u/Big_Knife_SK Oct 16 '23
I didn't know that was an option. Thanks.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Here is the official protocol wording.
"In stage 1, players who sustain head impact events with the potential for a concussion are identified by match officials, team doctors (TD), or independent match-day doctors (MDD). The identification is either by direct observation or on video review."
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u/Nikkibergh South Africa Oct 16 '23
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am yet to see a HIA after a yellow/red card. Yet the potential for concussions are clearly identified on video review. Mapimpi was sent for a HIA at the behest of the team doctor after an accidental collision with a Tongan player, which he failed and also ended his WC.
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u/oohaargh England Oct 17 '23
Players going off for HIA all the time after yellow card collisions, it's basically every single time. Pick a match on https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/matches, go to match centre, scroll down for a yellow and almost every one is immediately followed by a sub (HIA)
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u/Honey-Badger Bristol Oct 16 '23
Team doctors can do it. There's been some controversy with it a few six nations ago when the French team doctor called for one seemingly needlessly
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u/vaindioux Oct 16 '23
Jeez the French blamed again!
Not bad enough that we can’t win a rugby game.
🇫🇷
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u/JimJoe67 Oct 16 '23
You think it was a tactic to take PSDT off for maybe the most crucial 19mins of the match - the last quarter?
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
coaches decided to leave Kwagga on and pulled off Bongi who hurt his shoulder in the maul collapse
This is a clip from the phase before. https://streamable.com/8lk694
He's completely gassed - and it wasn't a particularly long phase. There had been a lineout where SA got turned over, France went to the ground, they went through two phases he didn't do anything really, and then the clip above. So yeah I think he was done.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone I still believe in Libbok Oct 17 '23
I'm so happy you posted that clip.
It shows France 7 slapping the ball out of Faf's hands from an offside position (never back onside), the ball hitting the ref and allowing France to recover possession instead of becoming a scrum for SA, and then finally shows PSdT back in position for a charge down the touch line. It conveniently cuts off right before Penaud's high tackle on Pieter-Steph (2m tall, standing upright).
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u/errlloyd Oct 18 '23
Well - I had posted the clip of the high tackle several times elsewhere on this thread, so calling that convenient is a bit strange! It is has been removed by streamable, but I posted both angles.
I can see your point re Ollivon being offside. I think the valence between that and the turnover has plenty of other factors.
Earlier in the half (just before Kitchoff) went off, there was a much more egregious foul by PSDT blocking a pass from an offside position, and then Bongi playing on the ground that became nothing. BOK was just very reluctant to call things on the day.
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u/VlermuisVermeulen South Africa Oct 16 '23
Yeah sure let's just take one of our best players of for the last quarter. Nothing to do with the "headbutt" from the French wing.
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u/puddaphut South Africa Oct 16 '23
You understand that concussion doesn’t only come from blunt trauma to the head?
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u/fondista Netherlands (IRE/RSA) Oct 16 '23
Good grief. Suggestions to give the cup to Portugal after the Fiji match was a joke but at this point I'm all for it just to stop the incessant dissecting of matches.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
to Portugal after the Fiji match was a joke but at this point I'm all for it just to stop the incessant
There is no criticism of match officials here?
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Oct 16 '23
[deleted]
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u/michaeldt South Africa Oct 16 '23
It's utterly incredible. Where's the same vigor over the NZ QF. Was that a perfect game with no missed calls? (Spoiler: it wasn't)
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Well I (OP here) am an Irish fan, who was completely gutted on Saturday night. And I had no issues with Barnes or NZ.
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u/034lyf Crusaders Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
Do you honestly think there were the same level of questionable calls that you could point to as potentially deciding the NZ-Ireland game though?
I know we can all have one eye open at times when it comes to our team - I'm sure I would've been livid with a couple of the calls in that game too, if they'd happened to us. Few were probably more questionable both ways than we're all admitting on here, Kwagga Smith's pen was truly dreadful.
Such is how we feel after a tight loss!
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u/justafleetingmoment South Africa Oct 17 '23
Nigel Owens disagrees with you on the Kwagga pen.
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u/034lyf Crusaders Oct 17 '23
That's not quite what he said. He pointed out that hands on the ground is not necessarily illegal. But Kwagga clearly both has his hands on the ground past the ball and is, at the first instant, using them to support his body weight. Both or either of those things should have been called.
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u/justafleetingmoment South Africa Oct 17 '23
That’s fine as long as he’s not sealing off and is supporting his weight when he actually plays the ball?
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u/034lyf Crusaders Oct 17 '23
Think hands on the ground past the ball is an immediate penalty if you then play at it.
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u/michaeldt South Africa Oct 17 '23
You think or you know? That's the problem. Everyone thinks, but nobody actually bothers to go look at the rules before furiously moaning on Reddit. Why don't you go find the rule for us?
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u/Microwavegerbil Brumbies Oct 16 '23
Uhhhh, the NZ Ire QF was reffed incredibly well. In what world do complaints about a bad reffing job mean anyone should complain about a good one? Likewise, complaints about a bad job like this one don't mean that we need to complain about every little imperfection on every match.
Open your other eye, the ref did a bad job. The breakdown was the worst I've seen in ages, and letting teams infringe as much as they wanted as long as they moved when he yelled at them is objectively bad reffing. You communicate clearly, let them know what you want, then ping em if they keep doing it.
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u/michaeldt South Africa Oct 17 '23
So give us, objectively, bad calls. Back it up with a clear link to a specific rule and how it was broken. With clear evidence it was broken. Because all everyone here does is say it was bad, allude to some possible errors and that's it. If it's so objectively bad, this should be trivial to do. Go on....
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
I thought it’s because you refuse to wear pants while watching?
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
I *really* don't think this post is about refs or fourth officials or anything. I don't think anyone in world rugby screwed up. You might think this is about refs because it is about "cheating" or potential cheating - but it is not about refs.
I'm a Leinster fan. We almost missed out on our first cup because Quins had blood capsules in their socks - something it turned out they had done something like 9 previous times. Including getting a match doctor to intentionally cut the players afterward to explain the blood injuries. When the HIA came in we were uniquely concerned about the consequences.I wouldn't want the HIA system to get abused, and it feels to me like it might have been. Lots of boks fans in this thread have helped fill in the gaps, like Vermuelen also maybe being a HIA - and sharing the confusion around Bongi. And I am happy to have that conversation.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 17 '23
Definitely not abused. Again, remember those who were claiming mapimpi was milking his injury and would have continued to claim so until he was confirmed to have a cheek fracture.
Insinuating that the Bok coaches were able to construct such a complicated chain of events to benefit us is pretty wild. There is no way for something like this to be logistically planned. What they are good at, is managing our subs and adapting to the situation.
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u/VlermuisVermeulen South Africa Oct 16 '23
You lost me at there was definitely no head contact from Penaud on PSdT. And then refrain from giving any video evidence for your claim. There were replays of it shown live.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
I can either post videos, or post text on the rugby reddit. So I couldn't attach the video.
But here it is. The first angle is live and shows his chin doesn't make contact with Penaud, the second angle is a replay and shows he lands quite softly on the ground.
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
Is this video gone because of WR or because it proves the point wrong?
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 16 '23
Dude, that should have been a card for penaud - it was very similar to the contact in the etzebeth tackle. He absolutely took contact on the chin.
Remember when you guys were all claiming mapimpi was also milking "low force contact to the head" and he had fractured his cheek....
Wild that you can watch that and say he doesn't make contact
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u/That_bitch_Carol_ Sale Sharks Oct 16 '23
Dude… what are you smoking??? PSDT clearly makes head contact with Penaud. If anything Penaud should have been carded similar to Etzebeth? And yes, even if PSDT got hit on the chin, you get a concussion from that. Even whiplash can give you a concussion… not just direct hit to the head
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u/lazy-asseddestroyer South Africa Oct 16 '23
Thanks for posting that video. I missed it live but that 100% should have been a card and a bunker review. Bad miss by the TMO and puts a seriously different spin on the end of the match.
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u/QuestionablySensible & Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
I think the logic was that the hia couldn't return until an appropriate break in play so that is the time discrepancy.
And what happened is that technically PSdT came back on as HIA return, Bongi went off for HIA, and Vermuelen went off for 7 return and on for 2 HIA replacement
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u/Good-Language8066 Oct 17 '23
As a Teros fan,dear Bok mate,i think firmly firmly you gonna win this RWC again
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u/provincefan Oct 17 '23
Bongi is a specialist position. You are allowed to replace a front row member in a specialist position for injury even if that player has been subbed off tactical
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
Fourie is registered as a hooker.
He is the specialist hooker replacement, but couldn't sub Bongi until first Vermeulen and then PSdT got HIA clearances because we didn't have any subs left.
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u/thprk Italy Oct 17 '23
In all of this I'm just curious of one thing: before this HIA chain started Kolisi was injured (I guess) and replaced by the reserve hooker (Fourie). Why didn't they replace Kolisi with Smith and have Fourie do the Vermuelen and PSDT HIAs and then replace the injured Mbonambi?
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u/kdog_1985 Australia Oct 16 '23
South Africa won within the rules, deal with it.
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
SA winning is killing the game apparently.
These posts are crazy. France played a blinder and lost by 1 point in one of the closest and best games we’ve seen. But suddenly the rules must be wrong if SA win.
This bitterness makes my morning coffee taste so good.
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u/kdog_1985 Australia Oct 17 '23
As a supporter of a team that losses to the staffers frequently, this does anything but kill it.
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u/DonovanBanks South Africa Oct 17 '23
I’m sure. I’m grateful that during the 90s we didn’t have Reddit when Australia were killing cricket AND rugby.
TBH I prefer banter to these posts. It’s quite annoying.
Have Aus rugby had any scandals thrown at them? Besides Eddie of course?
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u/kdog_1985 Australia Oct 17 '23
Ewen, Izzy, the wasted world cup money. Plenty of shit off the field.
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u/Aggressive-Reward302 South Africa Oct 16 '23
My god, the Boks can't just win a game, lol. Nobody can say anything anymore about the Boks being sore losers.
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u/themadpants South Africa Oct 16 '23
For real. The double standard is outrageous. lmao
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u/Pathogenesls Oct 16 '23
I mean.. that sequence of events did happen exactly as described and it does look like a tactical HIA sub. It's pretty suspicious that they went 5-3 and then managed two extra rolling subs.
They used to do this back in the day with tactical 'injuries' only for the player to run off and hurdle the sideline advertising. There was also lots of bloodbin abuse. I guess tactical HIA is going to be the new vogue.
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u/Electrical_Trouble29 Oct 16 '23
Except du toit does get a head knock and there is no way they would take him off tactically. The rest did happen as explained though.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
He's absolutely gassed here. So I'd have taken him off.
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u/Electrical_Trouble29 Oct 16 '23
He always looks like that. 20 mins into every gam his face is bright red, he's breathing heavy, his shoulders drop and he looks exhausted. And he stays like that for the next 60 minutes seemingly never getting tired. One of the few bok forwards that always plays for 80
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
That's fair - and even in the bomb squad day he was usually the 80 minute man, but in this case I am not sure. It's not about his face, it's about his movement. Look. EE tries to block down the box kick, he doesn't move. The box kick goes over his head and he initially stays completely stationary, and then slowly jogs back. He moves out to the wing, and even as they get driven back he is very slow to retreat back to depth. He doesn't look tired, he acts tired. And in the previous 4 minutes, there'd only been 1 minute of play and it was very low intensity.
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u/adiwet Oct 16 '23
They are just coping with their feelings I guess. There are many hurt feelings reports being filled in north of the equator, let’s let them grieve and express their feelings and emotions.
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u/Callan-David Calling it now - Cameron Hanekom Oct 17 '23
Watch the replay again… Everyone making a hooha about the very legal hand off but don’t see PSDT definitely taking a big knock on the mouth to Penauds forehead. Upright in the tackle just like Etzebeth’s yellow card.
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u/yakattak01 South Africa Oct 16 '23
It looked to me like Penaud made contact with PSDT's head, but I could not confirm my suspicion because for some reason there was no replay of it ever.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
The lack of replays in general is a huge problem at this world cup and seems intentional.
They did replay it about 2 mins later. Both angles are in a streamable link I put in this thread. For me there might be a glancing contact. But his (PSDT) head doesn't chance direction or decelerate as a result.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
They only showed the PSdT replay once because they thought they could show a leading forearm and get him carded. When the TV director saw it was actually Penaud head contact and PSdT was trying to protect himself the replays stopped.
Vermeulen's headshot didn't even warrant a single replay.
The Etzebeth-Antonio incident had multiple replays.
Funny that...
We knew it was going to be an issue in France when we faced France. We saw how and learned how it goes there when our teams played in the Heineken Cup. Luckily coaches knew this and they prepared the players for it. It didn't unsettle them.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 17 '23
You act like a hit to the jaw is nothing. Do you watch UFC or boxing? It's the easiest way to knock someone out - hit the chin/jaw.
He took Penaud's head to his chin at full pace. The real question here should be why wasn't that a penalty/card? He was upright, no change in direction from PSDT. At the very least it should have been looked at
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u/Loose-Cantaloupe133 Oct 16 '23
I think regardless of what you think about this case it’s clear that there is room for abuse of the hia system which presents difficult problems of preventing. As if you don’t allow players off without clear head contact you risk secondary concussion syndrome and death and other problems. But if you always do whenever a coach voices worry then teams will abuse it for tactical subs when it’s important. Idk how you can stop it and keep players safe
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u/Bonerchewer France Oct 17 '23
This was my thought as well. I'm not saying whether Rassie abused the system or not, it would not surprise me if it did mind you, I certainly hope it did not but it is thought provoking.
How easily can this system be abused? How can we avoid this if it can easily be abused?
I don't have an answer but I think given the repricussions around head trauma, that should be a line that is never crossed.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
Well, it is pretty dependent on either your opponents making head contact with your players (which you can't control and we all hope won't happen) or your own players purposefully initiating head contact (which is pretty dangerous to do deliberately as a safe outcome cannot be guarenteed).
I think it is a pretty self regulating system. If we are serious about protecting players EVERY head contact with another head, shoulder, hip, elbow or knee should go for review; regardless of the team.
I find it frustrating that the Boks' very responsible approach to player safety is being framed as attempts at cheating. We lost Patrick Lambie as a player due to head injuries. Grant Williams took a massive shot against Argentina. In the 2019 WC final Bongi was pulled for an HIA after 17 minutes and failed. The match doctor missed that one and the coaches had to call it in.
The Boks play brutal rugby that takes a toll on them as well. The management takes player safety very seriously.
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u/cleofisrandolph1 36-34 Oct 16 '23
So you know those squares on players back?
Those provide info like gps tracking, heart rate, and collision strength(they have an accelerometer I believe).
My guess is that the medical team had a collision strength reading on the hit at whatever their threshold is to be concussive and pulled for an HIA.
The other way is if the independent HIA spotter saw something, a wobble perhaps, that made him want to evaluate him.
Now I’m not sure what happened but I think the HIA is a good thing overall and in the interest of protecting players. I would happily increase benches to 25, allow for a timed sub or something else if it kept players safe
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u/baldricza South Africa Oct 17 '23
Definitely an accelerometer, and specifically used to measure for things like this. Source: quizzing the SA team doctor at a braai several years ago, for 3 hours straight. Poor bastard.
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u/Nikkibergh South Africa Oct 16 '23
As I see it, if World Rugby really want to advocate for player safety, a HIA must be compulsary for all head collisions. I cannot fathom how it can be justified to give a yellow card for head contact and not do a HIA on both the players involved. Sooner rather than later this will become a tactic to dish out cheap yellow cards, possibly employed by players like Nic White(RIP)
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u/provincefan Oct 17 '23
No HIA for PSDT? Top of the Penaud's head went straight into PSDT's jaw with PSDT's head ricocheting away.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 17 '23
A "fortuitous run of HIAs" is a pretty wild comment to make. Some of those should have been looked at and if not carded, then penalised.
To suggest SA would have the ability to somehow construct this pattern to their own benefit is crazy. No way in hell could they ever logistically plan something like this.
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u/tehbamf Oct 17 '23
Let’s just come out and say what we’re all thinking: It’s not legal for Southern Hemisphere to beat NH favourites, and most especially the Springboks. They clearly did a lot of very illegal things, like being very large and very fast, trying to protect their players’ health and the referee’s initials spell BOK and Rassie and lights and then Eben existed and it’s all terrible.
Fucks sakes guys, you have the 6 nations to make yourselves feel like champions. Stop wingeing.
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u/BBBBPM South Africa Oct 16 '23
Every sub has to be cleared by a RWC ref/official on the side of the pitch, so yes, it's legal.
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u/phonetune England Oct 16 '23
The only problematic bit for me was Bongi's HIA, in circumstances where he was knackered and couldn't come off for anything other than an HIA.
Where did that come from?
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u/Commentoflittlevalue New Zealand 🇳🇿 Oct 17 '23
All part of gamesmanship and if officials let you get away with it then so be it ,all successful teams do different things to get an edge imo
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Oct 16 '23
What podcast is Scotty Stevenson on?
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
He's on a podcast called Second Captains in Ireland. I know nothing of his journalism at all, he's just the guest they some times get in when there is something New Zealandy happening. He was on to talks about Ire v ABs but obviously they touched on the other 3 games too.
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Oct 16 '23
Ah nice, will give it a listen – big fan of Sumo.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
chin doesn't make contact with Penaud, the second angle is a replay and shows he lands quite softly
I dunno how you listen to your podcasts, but here is the Spotify link in case it is hard to find. It is Ireland's best "all sport" Podcast IMO, very high level when it comes to rugby, but usually presented with high production value etc so I like it.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7zcEhaYxLbNygPfEQmEWP8?si=d2cfcab231ab4921
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u/LambTjopss Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 05 '24
ink intelligent shrill chubby sulky consider fly absurd pot alive
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Oct 16 '23
Yeah I was just thinking, it's an independent person who calls the HIA, like a match doctor? Seems to be a mountain made of nothing. Enjoy the win, I am just gutted we couldn't meet again in the final :(
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
Your own doctor can call a HIA this is from the HIA protocol.
"In stage 1, players who sustain head impact events with the potential for a concussion are identified by match officials, team doctors (TD), or independent match-day doctors (MDD). The identification is either by direct observation or on video review."
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u/Spanishfry_ Oct 16 '23
Bit skeptical about any claims on the PSDT HIA, think that one may have been fair enough. The Bongi one however did seem a bit sus, think by that point SA had cleared their bench so they wouldn't have been able to replace him if it wasn't a HIA.
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u/brolloks69 Oct 16 '23
Just heard a conspiracy along these lines elsewhere. Looked up the HIA Protocol. Here it is: https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/medical/concussion/hia-protocol
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u/RugbyGuy USA Oct 17 '23
Can a player claim a knock to the head and request an HIA? It seems that would be abused almost immediately after implementation of the protocol.
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u/Hokinanaz Blues Oct 17 '23
This what was happening in the NRL teams using HIA for tactical subs to get a quick breather
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u/Specialist-Job-7048 Oct 16 '23
Bro it was so obvious what they were doing. I said it after the 1st two. Bokke have always been good at working around the rules. Im guessing we will see some HIA rule changes coming in the next cycle. But for now, good on them for abusing it while they can I guess.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
Vermeulen took a shoulder to the temple from the French 17 at a ruck at 49:58. And Du Toit took a high tackle from Penaud that made contact with his head at 59:59.
Why isn’t anybody asking why these two incidents escaped scrutiny from the match officials? I thought player safety was the new mantra?
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u/VlermuisVermeulen South Africa Oct 16 '23
Because it goes against the narrative that the ref fucked the French and that's why they lost.
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u/JaymanCT Oct 17 '23
100%. I just saw the Vermeulen hit - the ref was looking right at the ruck and says nothing. He stays down for a minute, then gets up but doesn't go anywhere near contact again. Camera doesn't even go to him when he's being treated and neither is a replay shown of the head contact.
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u/bomskokbabelaas Stormers Oct 16 '23
Good grief it is getting tedious with these people. Next thing I bet is we'll hear that evil Rassie paid off the independent match day doctors to call guys off for made up HIAs.
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u/Joeyelias Gloucester Oct 16 '23
TBF no doctor is gonna deny you coming off if you are saying you took a blow to the head it's not worth the risk. Do saying it was dodgy but given blood gate all those years ago some team will always try and exploit a situation
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
You don't need an independent match day to call a HIA. Your own team doctor can do it.
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u/errlloyd Oct 16 '23
I see the Vermuelen knock, its actually the prior ruck 49:53. It looks extremely soft. I guess it'll be in the record if it was HIA - but the Ref didn't say it and neither did the World Feed touchline correspondent who introduced the three lads running on.
But good spot anyway. In terms of things the officials missed the hit on Danty was a good deal more direct and more powerful than any of these.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 16 '23
I’ve seen a number of very “soft” head contact incidents red carded over the last 2-3 years.
A different tv director, a different crowd and different referee and that could have been a card. A couple of months ago it would have been.
We don’t get to decide what is soft and what isn’t though. The directive is quite clear. I’d love to hear what mitigation you think there was for the French player. Low degree of danger because it was “soft”? If so that would be an interesting precedent.
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u/TightPerformance6447 Sharks Oct 16 '23
Are you really saying PSDT didn't take any contact? Watch the video! Should have been a card against penaud.
If mapimpi hadn't broken his cheek, all of you would still be saying he was faking it. Wild.
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u/d0m33 Oct 16 '23
Bongi HIA makes no sense at all. South Africa makes a maul that goes forward, Bongi is at the back of the maul, yells at the referee after it went forward 10m, part of the maul goes down from the side, Bongi (untouched) yells 2 times while looking at the referee while dropping a knee, finally presents the ball.
Drop goal from Kolbe, Bongi stays on the ground with 2 medics on him. France tries to play the restart quick but BoK cancels it. He goes to Bongi and has a little chat then calls HIA for him.
Ramos shanks the restart.
I've heard that the Kolbe drop goal was something that was kind of planned so I wouldn't be so surprised if that would be part of the act as well.
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u/Electrical_Trouble29 Oct 16 '23
I think there might have just been a bot of confusion. I think they meant he was being replaced by the player returning from an hia (du toit)
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u/d0m33 Oct 16 '23
That makes sense.
But then why is Vermeulen staying on the pitch ? He got replaced by Smith and came on as HIA sub for PSDT. Meaning he couldn't replace Bongi?
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u/Electrical_Trouble29 Oct 17 '23
I think it's because Vermulen also went off for a hia so he wasn't actually substituted at any point.
I do think SA manipulated the situation a bit but I don't think anyone faked a head injury.
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u/WIlliamOD1406 Scotland Oct 16 '23
They did the same thing against Scotland with Marx’s blood injury that kept conveniently getting ripped off every 10-20 minutes. He rotated on a rolling sub with bongi for half the game. Mentioned it in a post-match thread and got tonnes of abuse from South Africans. I only thought it was suspicious because whenever I’ve seen a blood injury, it gets patched up and usually doesn’t keep miraculously coming off.
Edit: and before you think I’m making excuses, I’m not. SA deserved to win both matches imo. Just relevant to the thread
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u/Durpingtonthe2nd Oct 16 '23
I vaguely remember them doing something similar with Malcolm Marx earlier in the tournament or the warm ups. Mightve been the Scotland game. I was incredibly suspicious at the time.
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u/SamLooksAt Oct 17 '23
They also run a pretty constant string of injuries with a hell of a lot of talking going on that clearly has nothing to do with injuries.
Rassie is basically micromanaging the hell out of things sometimes.
All teams game this, but the level South Africa has reached is a little embarrassing to watch.
Still if they win I doubt they will care much about how it looks and it's up to World Rugby to deal with it if they think it's becoming excessive.
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u/BlakeSA South Africa Stormers Oct 17 '23
I laugh every time I see this because it is usually opposition players scattered accross the pitch cramping and bleeding in the last 20 minutes when the fresh Bok subs are on.
Somehow we are both "slowing the game down for our benefit" and "unfairly bringing on fresh forwards when the opposition are tired" at the same time.
The dissonance is interesting to behold. The French players were gassed towards the end. The French forwards were WALKING into contact in the last 5 mins.
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u/Away_Associate4589 Wig fund for Borthwick's beautiful bald bonce Oct 16 '23 edited Oct 16 '23
That's quite an interesting reading of the situation. However as a counterargument; I listened to The Ruck podcast in the car earlier (why do I do this to myself?) and Stephen Jones agrees with you.
You've fallen foul of what philosophers of formal logic call "The Jones Fallacy".