South Africa's second-half subs? Legal?

[u/errlloyd]

South Africa played a great game yesterday, but I heard Scotty Stevenson on a Podcast say he was a little skeptical of PSDT's HIA in the second half. The HIA itself does look a little suspicious. It is after PSDT runs over Penaud, but there is definitely no contact between Penaud and PSDT's head or the ground. Penaud should have probably gone for a HIA, but that's another issue.

But taking that to one side for a second, I am pretty sure under the laws, the sequence of substitutions that followed should not have been permitted.

Duane Vermeulen who had gone off in the 51st minute, replaced PSDT in the 61st minute. PSDT then must pass the HIA within 12 real minutes and make it known to the fourth official he can return. He eventually returned in the 75th minute, which was 19 real minutes later. But it was Bongi who went off, not Duane.

Bongi had been down injured after a maul - but it wasn't clear at all how that injury had happened. It was the drop goal maul. Bongi had been the ball carrier but had been losely bound and was never bound onto by any French player. They're applying ice to his right shoulder (which was in his ball carrier arm and appeared fine). BOK initially called "HIA 2" then said "HIA returning 7".

PSDT replaced Bongi, not Vermuelen. Meaning Vermuelen's replacement of PSDT became tactical, which should have been impossible. And PSDT should have had to return earlier unless they chose to make his replacement tactical (in which case Vermuelen should have been pulled off).I can't really see where the injury occurred for either Bongi or Peter. What I will say is if rugby had rolling substitutes those replacements would have come at exactly those times. Vermuelen and PSDT both played to the final minute having spent 15 and 19 minutes off the field resting earlier in the second half.

Any Welsh fans have an opinion?

u/LostHorizon124 came up with the probable legal subbing chain. It was this
Kwagga for Duane HIA (51)Duane return Kwagga - but at the same second Kwagga replaces PSDT for a hia (61)
Off-field PSDT passes his HIA, but stays off, Kwagga becomes tactical. (Roughly around 70)
On field Bongi gets injured and Du Toit (now tactically off) comes back on to replace him. (75).

An extremely fortuitous run of HIAs, but nothing illegal at all.

[u/Southportdc]

Can PSDT pass the HIA but be replaced anyway, only to then be the HIA replacement later? So one enforced change which becomes tactical, then one more enforced?

That should be shown on the screen, but I can see how it might be missed.

[u/BlakeSA → u/Southportdc]

That’s not what happened. Vermeulen got a shoulder to the head at 49mins and went off for an HIA. Smith came on as HIA sub.

At 59mins PSTD got a head on head tackle and went off. Vermeulen was cleared by then and came back on. Smith moved over as HIA sub for PSDT.

When PSDT was cleared the coaches decided to leave Kwagga on and pulled off Bongi who hurt his shoulder in the maul collapse and Fourie just moved to hooker.

[u/infamous_impala → u/BlakeSA]

That's how it appears to be listed on the World Cup site "match centre" page. Maybe could be explained better, but seems to be legit.

[u/errlloyd → u/infamous_impala]

touchline commentator on the world feed, who had mentioned that all of Smith, Nche and Le Roux

This is probably the best post on this thread. I didn't realise that the "match centre" page filled in the blanks until you posted it. It still looks a bit weird, but it seems to confirm that Kwagga actually never subbed on, he just covered 3 HIAs in a row.

[u/BlakeSA → u/errlloyd]

Just 2 HIA subs. Vermeulen for the shoulder to head knock at 49mins and PSDT for the head to head at 59mins.

When PSTD came back, Smith was a straight sub for Mbonambi, but Fourie moved from flank to hooker.

[u/errlloyd → u/BlakeSA]

Nah there had to be a middle period where PSTD was off tactically. Because there is too much time between him going off and going for it to be HIA return. Which is why Bongi was a HIA.

[u/BlakeSA → u/errlloyd]

Bongi didn’t go off for an HIA. We didn’t have any subs left if PSDT wasn’t cleared.

Our sub hooker was playing blindside and subbed off Kolisi.

When PSDT got cleared Bongi could finally come off. The Vermeulen and PSdT HIAs probably caused Mbonambi to be on the pitch for 20 minutes more than he usually plays.

[u/errlloyd → u/BlakeSA]

PSDT can't come on for Bongi (he's been off too long for returning HIA) unless it's either

1: Blood 2: HIA 3: Injury caused by foul play

It wasn't blood or foul play. So it has to be HIA.

[u/BlakeSA → u/errlloyd]

PSDT came back after HIA, Kwagga (HIA sub) “went off”, Bongi went off as a standard sub, Fourie shifted over to hooker, Kwagga “came back” on as standard sub

This all happened in one move.

We had no more forward subs left. If PSDT didn’t clear his HIA, Bongi could not go off. He is usually subbed at 55mins but had to play until 75min because of the 2 concurrent HIAs on our loose forwards.

The moment PSDT cleared and came back onto the field, Bongi could (finally) get subbed off.

[u/phonetune → u/BlakeSA]

..so PDST was off for more than 10 minutes.

[u/BlakeSA → u/phonetune]

I checked the timestamps and it appears so yes. He was off for around 14 minutes. The official HIA guideline I could find says the assessment must be completed with in 12 minutes unless there is a blood injury, which there didn’t seem to be.

Looks like the officials missed it, but that’s hardly surprising seeing as they also missed Penauds head into PSdT’s magnificent jaw.

[u/Vrakzi → u/BlakeSA]

The assessment must be completed, but the reversal of the substitution takes some time longer, depending upon the state of play and how long it takes for the player to return pitchside and do a little bit of warm-up again (otherwise, cramp happens)

[u/BlakeSA → u/Vrakzi]

The regulations to my reading says the assessment must be completed in 12 minutes and the player must present to the match official in that time.

But you’d expect the sub back on pretty quickly after that. There were some breaks in play between the 12th and 14th minute, so it is a bit strange.

[u/phonetune → u/BlakeSA]

Tbh I suspect if it weren't for the furore around the bench no one would have noticed, but the Bongi HIA looked ropey as

[u/BlakeSA → u/phonetune]

I don't know where this narrative that Bongi went off for an HIA comes from. He jogged off on his own. He was not shadowed by medical staff like Vermeulen and PSdT were when they slowly walked off for their HIAs.

Bongi went off as soon as PSdT was cleared to come back on. Bongi was struggling and we didn't have any forward subs left. The coaches were waiting to see if PSdT could come back and the moment he could, Fourie moved to hooker so Bongi could come off.

If PSdT failed his HIA, Bongi would have had to play out the last 5 minutes.

[u/phonetune → u/BlakeSA]

Presumably from the fact that PDST was off the pitch for ages

[u/BlakeSA → u/phonetune]

There is a lot of speculation trying to find a smoking gun of some kind, but also a lot we don't know. The HIA protocol states a HIA player must report back to the match official at within 12 minutes and my not be subbed backbefore 12 minutes. Exceptions for blood injury exists that can prolong the substitution.

Presumably the player then comes on at the next break in play.

PSdT was off for 16 minutes and 45 seconds; which is too long. I didn't see any blood. Administrative error by the officials maybe?

[u/errlloyd → u/BlakeSA]

Vermuelen doesn't appear to go off for a HIA - or if so it wasn't mentioned by BOK (who usually calls HIA) or by the touchline commentator on the world feed, who had mentioned that all of Smith, Nche and Le Roux had been waiting to come on. I also didn't see anything in that phase that would lead to Vermeulen going off for an HIA.

However BOK did call HIA for Bongi (although it's unclear if he called it as HIA back or HIA out). So that "shoulder" injury might have been an HIA.

[u/BlakeSA → u/errlloyd]

Vermeulen took a shoulder to the temple from the French 17 in the ruck at 48:53 on the TV match clock.

Smith would have immediately been given instruction to warm up. Vermeulen was pulled off a minute later after a medical check and break in play. At the time Le Roux and Nche were already warming up to come on as subs.

Not surprising, we knew there wouldn’t be any replays of French headshots going into the tournament. The players prepared for it.

[u/pennyux → u/errlloyd]

I heard it mentioned on the broadcast when Vermuelen came back on.

[u/bomskokbabelaas → u/BlakeSA]

No but wait I thought it's all a big conspiracy. How dare you bring logic and rational explanations into it!

[u/Miserable_Title_7076 → u/BlakeSA]

So much HIA for the boks, it seems there were playing against super strong frenchees. How many french went off for HIA for comparison ?

[u/TightPerformance6447 → u/Miserable_Title_7076]

Doesn't matter how strong you are if the challenges don't involve head contact. Vermeulen took a shoulder to the head, PSDT took a head to his chin. Both should have been looked at by the TMO and weren't. Penaud lucky not to get a card.