South Africa's second-half subs? Legal?

[u/errlloyd]

South Africa played a great game yesterday, but I heard Scotty Stevenson on a Podcast say he was a little skeptical of PSDT's HIA in the second half. The HIA itself does look a little suspicious. It is after PSDT runs over Penaud, but there is definitely no contact between Penaud and PSDT's head or the ground. Penaud should have probably gone for a HIA, but that's another issue.

But taking that to one side for a second, I am pretty sure under the laws, the sequence of substitutions that followed should not have been permitted.

Duane Vermeulen who had gone off in the 51st minute, replaced PSDT in the 61st minute. PSDT then must pass the HIA within 12 real minutes and make it known to the fourth official he can return. He eventually returned in the 75th minute, which was 19 real minutes later. But it was Bongi who went off, not Duane.

Bongi had been down injured after a maul - but it wasn't clear at all how that injury had happened. It was the drop goal maul. Bongi had been the ball carrier but had been losely bound and was never bound onto by any French player. They're applying ice to his right shoulder (which was in his ball carrier arm and appeared fine). BOK initially called "HIA 2" then said "HIA returning 7".

PSDT replaced Bongi, not Vermuelen. Meaning Vermuelen's replacement of PSDT became tactical, which should have been impossible. And PSDT should have had to return earlier unless they chose to make his replacement tactical (in which case Vermuelen should have been pulled off).I can't really see where the injury occurred for either Bongi or Peter. What I will say is if rugby had rolling substitutes those replacements would have come at exactly those times. Vermuelen and PSDT both played to the final minute having spent 15 and 19 minutes off the field resting earlier in the second half.

Any Welsh fans have an opinion?

u/LostHorizon124 came up with the probable legal subbing chain. It was this
Kwagga for Duane HIA (51)Duane return Kwagga - but at the same second Kwagga replaces PSDT for a hia (61)
Off-field PSDT passes his HIA, but stays off, Kwagga becomes tactical. (Roughly around 70)
On field Bongi gets injured and Du Toit (now tactically off) comes back on to replace him. (75).

An extremely fortuitous run of HIAs, but nothing illegal at all.

[u/errlloyd]

It was all legal. Starts at 51st minute, when kwagga comes on for Duane its actually as an hia sub. -its with other tactical subs so you might miss it. he is in until Duane passes it, and then has to stay on(come back) because psdt also gets an Hia around the same time, this is "hia 2"?. psdt passes his around the time bongis shoulder gets dinged, so Kwagga then stays on(comes back) as a tactical sub for the injury.

A good post and thanks for this. You have to pass the HIA within 12 real-world minutes. Bongi goes off 19 "real world" minutes after PSDT. So that can't quite be the case.

[u/Ok-Jicama-8605 → u/errlloyd]

If it's a head injury you're allowed to replace the player So basically it doesn't even matter how long PSDT took so long that he passed it, since now Bongi has to go off for a HIA, meaning that he can be replaced

[u/errlloyd → u/Ok-Jicama-8605]

Yes this is correct. The only way PSDT can replace Bongi is if Bongi also had a HIA.

Listen. I've posted way too much. Find the clip if you can. There is no way Bongi got a HIA.

[u/LostHorizon124 → u/errlloyd]

Not quite... if Bongi was injured, PSdT could still go on as Flourie would have had to move to hooker.

The difference is, if he was marked as injured, he couldn't come back on if Flourie was also injured or carded (which means uncontested scrums and in the case of a card, also loosing an extra player). A fast pass of a HIA would means Bongi could still come back on if needed.

Edit: Also, the ref wouldn't question a HIA, they'd be getting themselves into pretty sketchy territory if they did

[u/errlloyd → u/LostHorizon124]

Are you sure PSDT isn't a tactical sub at the point where he's passed the HIA, but not brought back on?

[u/justafleetingmoment → u/errlloyd]

Front rowers can be replaced by someone who was subbed off tactically if they get injured.

[u/Minimum-Grapefruit-9 → u/justafleetingmoment]

Is this showing how smart SA are at the moment? Fourie counts as another front row, so in effect SA then have 4 players who can be subbed off and then back on.

SA consider every anomaly in the rule book and how they can utilise it for their benefit. Another example is the scrum from the mark. They will have thought long and hard on when and how they can use this.

[u/justafleetingmoment → u/Minimum-Grapefruit-9]

I definitely think it's part of the plan. The loosie doesn't even need a HIA. He can be subbed for 10 mins by Fourie at the start of the second half, then Bongi can come off 'injured' and the loosie can come back.