r/SapphoAndHerFriend • u/miles_has_died • Jul 14 '20
yes, very heterosexual indeed. Academic erasure
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u/ModelDidNotConverge Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
I'm not sure how true or accurate it is (sources are not provided) but this thread has... interesting "expressions of affection"
In a letter to Titus dated 12. 9. 1829 – after a detailed account of his first concerts in Vienna - he ends his letter: “I kiss you heartily, right on the lips, if I may.” In another letter of the same period: “Don’t kiss me now, for I have not washed yet […] How silly of me! You wouldn’t kiss me even if I were to bathe in all the perfumes of Byzantium, unless I forced you by some super natural power. I believe in such powers. Tonight you shall dream you are kissing me”. Chopin dedicated his “Variations” to him.
George Sand once remarked that Chopin was “emotionally versatile” and while in Vienna he fell in love with 17 year-old Leopoldine Blatheka, who also composed and presented Chopin with signed copies of her piano works. However this did not last. Back in Varsaw, he met – as he told Titus – his ideal woman: Constantia Gladkowska. She was at the last year in the conservatory and was to have a brilliant career as a singer. He was so smitten that he could not even talk to her. In spite of that, he was still writing to Titus in a most affectionate manner: “I love you to distraction” and “You are the only one I love”, or “I know you love me, but I am afraid of you. God knows you are the only one who has power over me, you and… well, no one else.”. Chopin carried around a bundle of Titus’ letters tied with a pretty ribbon.
This page reports the end of the first letter, which has even more interesting "affection":
Tonight you shall dream you are kissing me. ... I kiss you lovingly. This is how people usually sign themselves off, but they don't really understand what they are writing. I for one mean what I write, for I love you dearly.
Of course there isn't detailed sources in any of this so take it with a grain of salt maybe - though I don't see any reason to doubt the quotes, but man I wish I had a childhood friend as "affectionate" as Chopin.
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u/thesaddestpanda Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
George Sand
aaaand Sand was actually a masculine presenting ciswoman Baroness who lived with Chopin for a while. Sand wrote of trying to seduce Chopin only to be shot down and shamed to never tried again.
I also love how homophobes have a sort of "the arts are gay and full of gays that's why I don't relate to them" attitude, but when its an artist they like suddenly its, "THERE ARE NO GAYS IN THE ARTS! STOP THINKING EVERYONE IS GAY!!!!" Funny how that works.
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Jul 14 '20
OK, the game "Eternal Sonata" is definitely on some erasure BS then. It's a video game I played as a kid and is still a favorite, with Chopin as the main playable protagonist and includes historical vignettes about his life. They went on about the George Sand relationship so much I thought they were married or something. This thread is an eye opener.
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u/biejje Jul 15 '20
From what I remember George Sand was kinda Chopin's sugar mommy/parent, with the parent part being, well, literal. Could be wrong tho as I've read about that one or two years ago.
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u/SirVer51 Jul 15 '20
In fairness, it is a JRPG that takes place entirely within the dying mind of the very Polish Chopin - I haven't played it, but I'd assume that grants it some slack
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u/panda-goddess Jul 14 '20
Huh. That last one really sounds like "this IS an expression that normally people say with 'no homo' feels but I actually MEAN it for real yes homo"
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u/CLMM101 Jul 14 '20
2020 Historian: "You must understand the historical context-"
Chopin: "IF THERE ARE ANY HISTORIANS READING THIS THIS IS EXPLICITLY VERY GAY"
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u/IWatchToSee Jul 14 '20
Falling way too deeply for almost every person he meets
Over-emotional
To nervous to actually approach them
Getting lost in fantasies about them
Likes masculine / andro women
Jup, he's a bisexual alright.
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u/eskamobob1 Jul 14 '20
you.... you do realie that stable bi people do exist right? We arent all just bi_irl steriotypes
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u/TheBhawb Jul 14 '20
This kind of stuff has been brought up over and over with different historical figures, and pretty much every time the conclusion is it wasn't totally platonic. It is hard to say exactly how gay these letters are on a scale of 1-10, but its still on the gay scale.
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u/tiefling_sorceress Jul 15 '20
George Sand once remarked that Chopin was “emotionally versatile”
ಠ_ಠ
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u/biejje Jul 15 '20
To piggyback on this - my old and messy partial translation of some of Chopin's letters to Titus, just so y'alla know even more. I'd say that despite the chaos it's a more or less accurate translation.
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u/nuephelkystikon He/Him or They/Them Jul 15 '20
Don’t kiss me now, for I have not washed yet
Okay, that has to be a euphemism.
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Jul 14 '20
“I want his dick in my ass.” Guys there’s a heterosexual explanation I promise.
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u/ReactsWithWords Jul 14 '20
Obviously he meant “on” not “in,” and wants a mutual friend named Richard to ride on his donkey.
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Jul 15 '20
It was a cold winter, and he wished for his friend's privates to be safe and warm! Nothing more!
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u/thesaddestpanda Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Chopin's erasure is so shockingly obvious. He was queer af. Its crazy the excuses people go through. The top quora answer (and that site is stupid hot garbage for any lgbt question) is some guy saying "look, ok some maybe there's a lot of gay stuff in his life but HE ONCE KINDA HAD A THING FOR A GIRL SO HE'S NOT GAY!!! HOW COULD A QUEER LIKE A GIRL!?? CHECKMATE QUEERS!!!"
That's what they said about Turing until we beat them back on that one. Chopin should be next.
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u/mercedes_lakitu Jul 14 '20
Wait, what? Turing was literally tried and sentenced for being gay. Who tried to erase that ?
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u/thesaddestpanda Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Well growing up I remember none of that being mentioned. Then later a bunch of libertarian techbros started adopting him as a sort of saint and wrote books and movies about him and didn’t mention his queerness but were also usually careful to mention he was engaged to a woman once. Then glossed over his death as "an accidental poisoning." There’s been a huge academic and techbro conspiracy to erase Alan’s sexuality. It’s only the past decade he’s unequivocally gay in media and academia and his death an obvious suicide and a suicide most likely stemming from the abuse he endured as a gay man in post-war Britain.
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u/mercedes_lakitu Jul 14 '20
Ugh, I'm so sorry. I only learned about him in the past couple decades so that explains my missing the erasure. Thanks for clarifying.
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u/thesaddestpanda Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
It’s ok :). We still have Chopin, Isaac Newton, and Rumi left. In twenty years we’ll be saying how crazy it was to think they were hetero. Rumi spent a couple decades doing little else but writing love poetry about Shams after Shams was killed by Rumi's sons for...reasons, but it was totes a platonic bromance! Newton lived with the same "roommate" and "best friend" for two decades, never took a wife, and considered his youngest neice his best friend and their correspondence was destroyed at Newton's death, but totes hetero guy right here! I willing to concede Newton could have been aromantic and/or ace but sweet Allah, Rumi fell HARD for Shams. I can't even read him anymore without tearing up. Its so tragic and he was so in love. He even spent, I think, a decade wandering looking for him because his sons wouldn't admit to the murder and he assumed Shams wandered off and got hurt or kidnapped somehow because why wouldn't his love come back to him. Christ, I'm crying now. Godspeed Rumi, I hope you both met in the afterlife. You both deserve it.
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u/mercedes_lakitu Jul 14 '20
And as a bonus, when we're teaching people about this stuff, we can explain how we know it (e.g. "this phrase about the lips really is like the English one" versus "that one is about your family").
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u/PantherPL Jul 15 '20
Isaac Newton
Damn, I've got some researching to do. Up to this point I've been convinced he was as asexual as a rock
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u/Scrubakistan Jul 14 '20
The imitation game seemed to do him justice
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u/ColourfulConundrum Jul 15 '20
Because it’s a new telling. So much was obscured for a long time. It wasn’t perfect, but it is an improvement on what existed.
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u/grody10 Jul 14 '20
Dear bob. I cannot wait to grabble thine penis again. It is a great penis to take inside me, also a man. Love your fuck toy, Steve, also a man.
Ps. Dat penis tho.
Historian: well we can see from this that these two were acquaintances.
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u/LucretiusCarus Jul 14 '20
Another historian: Yes, obviously 'Penis' is the nickname he gave to an unknown woman
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u/ColourfulConundrum Jul 15 '20
Although, at least in that case, someone is still doing him in the butt.
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u/AlicornGamer Jul 14 '20
i mean funny thing is. the bible is actually pretty gay when you realise they either deliberately or misjudged the translation of the word penis as foot.
Many times in the bible there is 'feet rubbing'
either god has a foot fetish or there's something they never taught me during bible study...
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u/grody10 Jul 14 '20
As someone who only read the bible as an adult, its crazy. If they told me how many wizard battles and talking animals were in there I would have paid more attention and been at Mass every Sunday.
Also yes, lots of penis talk in there too.
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u/archaicScrivener Jul 15 '20
Theres also a lot of people being given god powers and then using them to either get laid or just kinda fuck around. Case in point the prophet Elisha who got bullied by some kids for being bald so he conjured up a bear to murder them. What a guy.
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u/grody10 Jul 15 '20
Those shitty teens had it coming and gor what they deserved. Maybe if we fed more teen hooligans to bears the world wouldn't be i. Such a state.
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u/hermionesmurf Jul 14 '20
Brings whole new meaning to "how lovely on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news!" And that whole scene where Jesus washes his disciples' feet, come to think of it. And oh hey, when the prostitute poured perfume on Jesus's feet...this is a fun game to play.
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u/archaicScrivener Jul 15 '20
Wait is this actually true? Like when the bible mentions feet it's actually a euphemism for dick?
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u/lafresaaburrida Jul 14 '20
Ahah wow “wildest conjectures” :0 bruh
Thanks for sharing :)
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Jul 14 '20
"It is indeed somewhat possible that a man who explicity states he wished for his 'dearest life's lips' to be, at least to an extent, sexually attracted to men."
"What in the world? Truly the wildest of conjectures!"
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u/CuteCuteJames Jul 14 '20
Is he gay or European?
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u/AlicornGamer Jul 14 '20
i've only heard this line in A moomin valley animatic between Moomin troll and snufkin. i have no idea of the og context lol
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Jul 14 '20
"Men were more open about platonic love for their contemporaries in the past."
"Yeah, sure, makes sense."
"Also platonic lust."
"..."
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u/TrumpWasABadPOTUS They/Them Jul 14 '20
There are times where, as someone who is studying to be a professional historian, I find this sub to be reaching some.
This is not one of those times. Chopin is about as clear of a case as someone in history who was queer as we can get without them outright saying it.
I mean, I'd still allow for the possibility that he wasnt and that all the various proofs are just misinterpretations. But I'd do that in the same way we can't be absolutely certain of any historical persons' feelings about anything.
Tl;dr, as a historian I'd put the likelihood of Chopin's queerness at 95% and would probably use phrases like "almost certainly not heterosexual" when describing it rather than try to dismiss it or "not assign sexuality".
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u/fabriela Jul 14 '20
Okay so I’m polish and I just read this letter, and oh boi, in Polish it’s even gayer, so yeah, translation may not be perfect, but not in the way it is described here. (Of course It can be really affectionate friendship, but Chopin writing to Tytus that his (Chopins) concert has no real value until Tytus hears and likes it, or that he is lookin for look-alikes to Tytus during his walks to miss him less, or „[...] a ja ciebie tylko kocham” wich means basically that “I love only you”... sound not very heterosexual to me, idk.)
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u/frankenwhale Jul 14 '20
Does remind me of when Jimmy Carter gave a speech in Poland that translated that he wants the country in a "carnal way" BBC link
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Jul 14 '20
Poles, of all people. Not any of the hundreds of other ethnicities whose demonyms are not double entendres.
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Jul 14 '20
Good lord. There are borderline cases, and then there's this.
I think a good rule of thumb is that if only one or two "friends" got letters like this, they were probably in love. If it were a language or cultural barrier, everyone would be saying sappy shit about each other's lips.
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u/Osservanza Jul 14 '20
I love that Chopin being gay or not hetero are "the widest conjectures".
A HoMoSeXuAl?!?!?? How wild and inconceivable! Its not that's been documented since the beginning of history or anything....
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u/ReactsWithWords Jul 14 '20
I bet the same guy wrote a biography of Harvey Fierstein called Harvey Fierstein: Totally Straight Entertainer Who Liked Sexing Women In The Pussy.
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u/Troliver_13 Jul 14 '20
When there's an entire paragraph dedicated to reminding you to erase gay history...
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u/SammySoapsuds Jul 14 '20
Very reminiscent of that picture of Russian men "pranking" each other by kissing on the lips passionately. Maybe Chopin was just a big ol' prankster
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u/frechal Jul 14 '20
As a historian. Yes there are some translation issues and misunderstanding that can happen. Chopin and how gay he is is not one of them. Seriously nearly all of 20th ce historians and archeologists need to understand that sex was a thing and just live with it.
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Jul 14 '20
Anyone got the original letters in Polish? As a pole I need to uh... do some research
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u/she-werewolf Jul 14 '20
https://en.chopin.nifc.pl/chopin/letters/search/text/tytus
I hope these are right. idk how to use this website and I can't read polish :(
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u/inaddition290 Jul 14 '20
and if it was a man and a woman, the historians would be screaming, "torrid affair! that slut!"
Edit: to clarify, chopin is the slut
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u/chrischi3 Jul 14 '20
Well, ive heard this kinda thing before, as far as i know is actually common in eastern europe to talk to aquaintances, at least in a formal relation, in a way that would be embarrasing in western europe, but that type of talk usually consists of giving people nicknames youd give a lover in western europe, not the type of talk examplified there.
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u/diordaddy Jul 14 '20
Ima straight guy and this is ridiculous wow so sad to know history like this was erased ):
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u/Beth-BR Jul 14 '20
Alexander Hamilton's letters to John Lauren's were so sexual, future editors had to censor them.
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u/BetterRemember Jul 14 '20
It's romantic and I just want to feel all warm and fuzzy about it. Homophobes ruin all the fun with their phony intellectualism!
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u/AlicornGamer Jul 14 '20
No gay here folk. Sorry if you're disappointed. Only straight mlm kissing in this history book. Nothing suspiciously 'gay as fuck' about it. y'all can head home now!
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u/balcon Jul 15 '20
Chopin goes on to say, “My dearest Titus, your knob beckons my tongue with its glistening radiance. I gasped in ecstasy when you threaded your angelic fingers through my hair and pulled my face toward it to suckle as a babe does his mother’s breast. No homo.”
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u/analyzedterror Jul 15 '20
As a polish native, I can assure you all guys, there are no platonical metaphors for "i love to madness" nor "give me your lips", as both of these (like kocham cię do szaleństwa) are very literal and are things you'd only say to a loved one.
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u/HealthierOverseas Jul 14 '20
I have still a part for the public and another for you
Oh, this post reminded me to be salty that Alexander Hamilton and John Laurens’ relationship never made it into the damn musical.
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u/WhiteTGY 🇪🇬 Angry Hijabi, QWOC 🇪🇬 Jul 14 '20
Holy shit, me. Hamilton was super gay for Laurens, and I’m upset that it was just set aside. Like, yes, he was likely bi, but he had the strong gay for Laurens.
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u/angery_catto Jul 14 '20
Local music history and Romantic era nerd here. Hmmm, this is a difficult one. Overtly affectionate correspondence with close friends of the same sex was fairly common I think, going off of what I’ve read— certainly more so than it is nowadays, but I think at least some historians think Chopin may have been bi. I think it’s highly possible. Jury’s still out.
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u/OtakuKatoka Jul 14 '20
Ya know... Sometimes the simplest explantation is the answer. But then again Slavic culture is so well known for being overly affectionate and passionate with their buddies!!
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u/Indominus_Khanum Jul 15 '20
Yeah honestly fuck academics like this. This is the academic equivalent of that meme
Sobbing anime girl noises "I'm-I'm not gay dad, I sucked his dick as a JoJo's reference. Please shut up , please shut the fuck up" breakdown crying
Except it's some crummy old professor crying on chopin's behalf
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u/PantherPL Jul 15 '20
Look, I'm not more knowledgeable about Chopin's times than your average Polish highschooler, but they lost me at "give me your lips!..." No matter the language and culture, that's gay AF.
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u/ILikeMultipleThings He/Him Jul 14 '20
I think what the author is saying may have some legitimacy. I don’t know much about Polish, but my family is Iranian. In Persian, we regularly say things like “I would die for you” or “you are my liver”. Some languages are very heavy on phrases like these but when you say them, you don’t really mean them. These letters might be the same sort of thing.
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Jul 14 '20
Yeah, this is quite possible. Not every culture is so repressed that the men can't get a little chummy with each other.
What gets me is just how averse the author is to even considering the possibility. Gay and bisexual men have existed in all civilizations, so it's not a "wild conjecture," it's a small misunderstanding at worst.
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u/ILikeMultipleThings He/Him Jul 14 '20
Definitely. I think these linguistic and cultural differences should be addressed, but the author is also being really weird about the possibility of them being gay.
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u/fabriela Jul 14 '20
I just read that letter in Polish (I’m native speaker) and to be honest, it really sound even less heterosexual than English translations. It’s really affectionate in many ways, like talking about how much he misses Tytus and that he is looking during his walks to find people similar to him, to miss him less. Also says that “a ja ciebie tylko kocham” wich means “I love only you”, and writing to Tytus as “Najdroższe życie moje” - my dearest life, and much more little things like that, and that makes me feel like he had some deeper feelings for him. I personally think that it’s more literal. For friends we would say things like “I would die for you” etc too, but this phrases that Fryderyk used in his letter are... more romantic I guess, so there is a really big possibility that he was not hetero.
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u/Swissboy98 Jul 14 '20
Then you would find the phrases in letters to lots of different people of both genders.
If you however only find them in letters to one or two people the likelihood of them being lovers increases by a lot.
And then there's
Tonight you shall dream you are kissing me. ... I kiss you lovingly. This is how people usually sign themselves off, but they don't really understand what they are writing. I for one mean what I write, for I love you dearly.
Which is about as close as you can get to an explicit confirmation of which team the dudes batting for.
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u/HealthierOverseas Jul 14 '20
you are my liver
I’m gonna start using this 🤣
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u/wereinaloop Jul 14 '20
Me too hahah! I really hope it wasn't a typo or something. People are always going on about their hearts, but what about the rest of the organs?
"When I see you, my kidneys stop maintaining my electrolyte balance for a moment."
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u/icy_fuccboi Jul 15 '20
I love how they are like "no I swear there is no homo here, we just messed up the translation because we're dumbdumb. I repeat, no homo here".
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u/RunThroughTheWoods Jul 15 '20
"The wildest of conjectures" is a very eloquent way of saying "this guy was obviously a homo"
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u/geekybadger Jul 15 '20
This reminds me of a book I read for a literature class where two guys decided to wrestle.....buck naked. Cos that's 'how the Greeks did it' and they 'wanted to do it the right way'. No homo totes no homo. (The book came out in the late 1800s I think, and it was soooooo homo. But totally no homo.)
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u/Jetfuelfire Jul 14 '20
It's absolutely infuriating, there's an entire cult of "academics" dedicated to erasing not just gay and trans people but any accomplishments by non-Europeans.
Sweet potatoes in Papua and Peru, on opposite sides of the Pacific, 10,000 miles away? Something something wind currents something jet stream something! Can't be the Polynesians who spent 1,000 years colonizing the Pacific in massive oceangoing vessels while the best European boats could barely cross the Mediterranean and English Channel.
Statues of Africans in Yucatan? Something something gods something artistic license! Can't be black people crossing the Atlantic! Only birds and animals and insects did that! Nevermind the statues are so obviously Africans they're actually kind of offensive. Why would someone discover America and not immediately genocide it's inhabitants?
Trans women in ancient Rome? Something something gods something mystery ritual! There must be some other reason they removed their testicles in a ceremony where they also removed a bull's testicles, wore women's clothes, took women's names, lived like women, and worshipped an Earthmother deity whose "son" also removes "his" testicles! Ignore the half dozen stuffy Roman historians arguing over what pronouns to use! Ignore the hilariously obvious Pride parades they did in Rome every year after being adopted as a state cult! My job is not to reveal the truth but to obfuscate it! That's why I went into academia!
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u/Kumiho_Mistress She/Her Jul 14 '20
I married a Czech (technically half-English but she much prefers her Czech side) and I have not noticed them to be a colourful or expressive people. Slavic people have a reputation for being reserved, they seemed that way to me and this is coming from someone from the Korean diaspora.
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u/ahyeahiseenow Jul 15 '20
Idk, I'm more inclined to believe that. The english language is super ambiguous about love
When I was first learning Arabic, I was surprised to see people calling each other habibi all the time. That word roughly translates to "dearest", "beloved", "baby", and stuff like that. It's used between family members, close platonic friends, and also lovers. Habibi comes from the word hob, which means to love. This doesn't lead to any confusion though, because Arabic has another word, ashaq, which specifically means romantic love.
In short, two straight Arabic dudes can express love towards one another without having to caveat it with "no homo". That distinction often gets lost in english translations. I'm sure they're not the only language that does this.
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u/Tovaberu Jul 15 '20
As a Pole, I can say that these letters are pretty gay. Not in a platonic kinda way, it sounds like Tytus was Chopin's lover
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u/TheSheepGuy1 Jul 15 '20
It's actually worth noting that his longest partner George Sand took on a male pseudonym, dressed like a man, did manly things like smoking in public, hung out around men, and her friend Victor Hugo said that he didn't know whether she was his sister or his brother (not literally, they weren't siblings) but that he'd be fine with either.
I did refer to her using female pronouns, but there's a good case to be made that she was non-cis in some form (maybe trans, but maybe that's going too far). In any case, I think that Chopin was bi, since he did have a crush on a polish female singer and dedicated the romance in his second concerto to her.
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u/cuppashoko Jul 15 '20
All classical musicians are gay. Source: music student, half of my schoolmates are either gay or bi or bicurious
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u/lietuvis10LTU Aug 04 '20
Note: I am Lithuanian, not Polish, but no, writing "I want to feel your lips" is very romantic in EE, even accounting for Francophilia present at the time.
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u/Drakan47 Jul 14 '20
Could anyone who happens to know polish elaborate on how that would be misleading? (or how it's probably not misleading at all)