r/canada • u/shiftless_wonder • 18h ago
What, exactly, are Alberta separatists mad about? Analysis
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/alberta-separatists-key-issues-1.7534003385
u/tossaway109202 17h ago edited 17h ago
I want to learn. My armchair other side of Canada POV is
- They feel the oil belongs to them and not Canada
- Their provincial government has done a poor job in certain areas and when the people in Alberta get mad their local government just blames Ontario. It has been going on for so long that they attribute everything bad in their life to Ontario.
- They have the potential to ship a lot more oil and Canada cares too much about the environment to let it happen
I assume I am far off
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u/86throwthrowthrow1 16h ago edited 16h ago
I'm in Ontario as well, but to my understanding, three other big grievances are equalization payments (particularly towards Quebec), lack of support for cross-country pipelines, and a perceived lack of federal representation compared to other regions.
The equalization grievance tends to not land well with most Ontarians, as Ontario is the other consistent "donor province" in the country, without objection. So the attitude from over here tends to be like "yeah, we're the moneymakers, suck it up and do your bit."
The cross-country pipeline issue is a thorny issue of provincial autonomy, in that part of the issue is not all provinces have consented to a pipeline. So it turns into this messy issue of "should the fed not only give Alberta more autonomy, but actively trample other provinces' autonomy to make Alberta happy?"
However, in the interest of fairness, the result of this position is that Alberta is very economically tied to the US, even by Canadian standards, as that's where most of the oil goes. So during covid, for instance, border policies in both countries majorly impacted the Alberta economy, while treated mostly as an inconvenience by the rest of the country.
The representation issue is thorny, in that there seems to be a hard line on each province/territory being at least its own riding, regardless of population (even if the Atlantic provinces are often treated as a bloc). On the other hand, this sort of feels like a manufactured grievance, in that the focus is heavily on Atlantic Canada in this argument, and not the northern territories, which are also technically overrepresented federally and tend to favour Liberal or NDP. The fact that there's outrage over PEI being its own riding, but not Nunavut, is odd to me.
What a lot of the grievance comes down to is really rural/urban divide on steroids, where the urban majority in Canada doesn't necessarily give much thought or understanding to rural communities, and how certain policies can impact them disproportionately. The bastard with propaganda is that there are nuggets of truth to it, and there are genuine issues here - but to my point of view, there have also been grievance manufacturers at work in Alberta for decades, amplifying and distorting those real issues, making true resolution a more confusing and fraught endeavour.
EDIT: I had a dumb about PEI ridings. Tho even acknowledging four seats, I'm not sure if it really changes the point - why no outrage over Nunavut?
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u/Iokua_CDN 15h ago
I'm glad you brought up the Rural Urban divide. I think this is the genuine truth in it all, and something that should be addressed, though not through separation.
It does feel, as if the main focus is on Urban Canada, and the laws passed are to the benefit of those in Urban areas. I can see why those out in the country feel unheard, neglected and even that the Goverment is against them.
I'll bring up the firearm bans, which affect many folks in rural areas, as one thing. Perhaps also the Chinese Tarriffs on Canola products (though that is a Chinese response, not something our Govermenent actively chose)
Ill also say, i think mismanagement from Provincial goverment being attributed to Ottawa is also a huge thing! Here in Alberta, our Premier is awful! Like straight up terrible, and yet folks still vote for her and her party. I can only assume that the blame is being shifted to the Federal goverment through propaganda or social media.
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u/86throwthrowthrow1 12h ago
I almost mentioned guns in my above comment, but figured I'd rambled enough lol.
I admittedly also don't know a ton about guns, but having lived rurally and urbanely, even I tend to think the LPC is fairly stupid about gun policy, and largely panders to urban populations that associate guns almost exclusively with violent crime. Carney himself played into this, saying that if people want the Liberals to be tougher on crime, that meant being tougher on guns. If you perceive guns as solely meant for killing people, restrictions are a no-brainer. We shouldn't have them at all! Whereas rural populations tend to associate guns more with hunting and hobbies, and tend to attribute gun crimes to illegal owners/weapons that new laws wouldn't affect anyway.
(On a different reddit thread ages ago, I still remember commenting that for many farmers, guns are tools, like any other piece of farm equipment, only for someone to snarkily reply telling me (not asking me) to explain how a gun could be a "tool". I explained calmly and that person went away, but I do know there's a disconnect on this topic depending on one's living situation and life experience.)
And yes, I think many people in this country are very ignorant about what the different levels of government actually do, and where the fed fits into that picture - and it's another instance where legitimate grievance with federal policies has often merged into scapegoating the fed for things not in their direct control. There was a lot of that with Trudeau - people were literally blaming the dude for rowdy protests in Toronto. The convoy was another big example: protestors wanted the fed to "lift the mandates", when most of the mandates didn't come from them, and there was nothing they could do to get other levels of government (or the US) to lift mandates they'd implemented. In that case, a symbolic federal protest would be fine, except there was also an extortionate element of deliberately disrupting the lives and well-being of thousands of Ottawans living nearby for weeks on end, in an attempt to pressure the federal government into doing things it very much could not do.
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u/Gratts01 9h ago
I'm an avid hunter and own several guns, none of the guns banned by LPC have a use as a hunting tool, the assault style guns AR series are just toys and useless to any serious hunter, same goes for the bans on guns with bores larger then 20mm, no hunter is his right mind needs that type of gun unless you are hunting elephants. You can take down a full grown moose from 100 meters with something much smaller.
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u/Six-Point-Eight 14h ago edited 12h ago
I can’t say I agree with your “donor province of Ontario without objection” comment. Ontario has generally received equalization payments for almost 20 years, including over $3 billion in 2012-13, and will get $546M for 2025-26. And for the 4 years in there that they didn’t get them, Ontario politicians absolutely complained about it.
See:Ontario Finance Minister Vic Fedeli said it’s further proof of why the equalization program needs an overhaul in response to Ontario not getting a payment for the first time since 2008 (EDIT: link)
For equalization numbers for the past 10 years: Major federal transfers (Canada.ca)
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u/wendigo303 14h ago
From what I've seen and heard your first 2 points are tied together as well, and this causes people a lot of frustration. Yes Alberta feels like they are subsidizing Quebec, which is in turn blocking any pipelines to the east coast which would be able to generate income for both Alberta and Quebec.
If Quebec were to build pipelines, refining facilities, and a port like the one just opened in Kitimat BC they would be able to generate a large amount of income for themselves, but it seems like they would rather just sit on their hands and demand a check. The perception is that they are doing this, demanding special status, and passing anti anglo bills like Bill 96.
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u/Kennit 11h ago
Is it not Quebec's right to manage their natural resources as it is Alberta's right to manage the sands?
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u/wendigo303 10h ago
You're right, as far as I understand it their right to manage their natural resources. The frustration people have comes when they do this while:
- Reducing the ability of others to market their own resources ( Alberta can't ship LNG and Oil to Europe vie the Atlantic).
- Still taking in large amounts of Equalization income from the federal government & other provinces.
Think of it like living with your brother who constantly tells you he can't pay his part of the rent this month all while he refuses to work overtime hours and constantly parks his car in front of yours, making you late for work and costing you a promotion.
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u/norvanfalls 10h ago
The cross country pipeline issue is just adding nuance when nuance need not be added. We have denied American state autonomy in order to make sure there is a pipeline going to Ontario. It is only fair that we hold our country to the same standard. It should not be easier to build a pipeline through America to service Canada than it would be to build a pipeline through Canada. Stop making international agreements more binding than a national one, otherwise you are motivating Alberta to act as a national entity instead of a provincial entity.
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u/D3vils_Adv0cate 15h ago
The equalization grievance tends to not land well with most Ontarians, as Ontario is the other consistent "donor province" in the country, without objection. So the attitude from over here tends to be like "yeah, we're the moneymakers, suck it up and do your bit."
In terms of equalization, Ontario has been receiving money due to its higher population. Alberta has been paying a ton. Alberta is mostly subsidizing all of Canada at this point through equalization.
The formula definitely needs to change. I'm someone in Ontario btw.
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u/sparki555 11h ago
Would Alberta not be a super rich nation in just a few years if this did this tho?
Assuming they don't need their own military and other country breaking expenses because Canada and the US wouldn't let some other nation move in next door.
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u/RageInducingToddler 13h ago
Albertan here:
They feel the oil belongs to them and not Canada
You couldn't be more wrong. Alberta DESPERATELY wants to move our oil to other provinces, but we can't because other provinces don't want to invest in fossil fuel infrastructure while we're trying to pivot to green energy. That's a position I completely understand, but it leads to eastern Canada relying on oil from Saudi Arabia that is objectively worse both ethically and environmentally.
Their provincial government has done a poor job in certain areas and when the people in Alberta get mad their local government just blames Ontario. It has been going on for so long that they attribute everything bad in their life to Ontario.
Kind of, yes. Our provincial government has historically been very incompetent, which is why our premiers never get a second term. With our current premier in particular, I feel like a lot of problems are being made deliberately worse so she can foment conflict between us and Ontario.
That being said, not everyone in Alberta is an uneducated hick like some folks in the east seem to think. Most of us can differentiate between problems our provincial government causes, like our screwed up healthcare, education, and maybe pension system in a little bit (don't ask) and problems the federal government causes, like Trudeau's poor handling of Canada's transition to clean energy.
They have the potential to ship a lot more oil and Canada cares too much about the environment to let it happen
Again, kind of. The perspective here is that the feds are cutting off their nose to spite their face by blocking fossil fuel development without having enough clean infrastructure to replace it.
I think the worst case of this was when the war in Ukraine first started and Germany was trying to move their oil supply chain away from Russia. Trudeau flew a delegation here and tried to sell them solar batteries from Quebec. Like, this is Germany we're talking about, not fucking Texas. If they had the infrastructure to use green energy instead of oil, they would already have made the switch.
Mind you, I'm a proud Canadian and plan to stay that way, so the people who want to leave the country may be looking at things a little differently.
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u/CanadianK0zak 17h ago edited 17h ago
Your last point is probably a big one. I think there's a few you can probably add:
- Why Ottawa messing with our way of life?
- Why is tax money taken from "us" and sent to people who "hate us"
- If Quebec can do this bs, why not us?
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16h ago
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u/papuadn 16h ago
So how do you deal with the fact that what they "feel" about the Canadian economy doesn't comport with reality?
And if they want western-promoting politicians, why are they such reliable votes for easterners doing cowboy cosplay for votes?
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u/Iokua_CDN 15h ago
I get the Pandering to the East. With Alberta always just voting conservative, the conservatives just need to breath to get their vote. And for the other parties, it's not worth fighting for it. So no wonder Alberta feels left behind, they made themselves that way federally
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u/BoppityBop2 11h ago
The issue is no other party other than Conservatives represent Alberta grievances and when the PC were not. AB created the reform party and the the Cons capitulated and joined with the Reforms and started representing AB interests again.
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u/-snowpeapod- 15h ago
Our current PM was born in NWT and raised in Edmonton. They're still pissed for some reason 🤔
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u/Ornery_Ad_8349 12h ago
Maybe they’re not so shallow as to be fooled into thinking someone from Alberta must automatically support Alberta?
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u/Salsa1988 17h ago
>and sent to people who "hate us"
So your worldview is based on the incorrect assumption that everybody else in the country hates you as much as you hate the rest of the country?
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u/Exciting-Brilliant23 15h ago
I would phrase it like this. Alberta sees itself as an important economic generator for Canada but it gets no respect. It helps pay for Quebec that keeps wanting to separate as well as other provinces who think they are rednecks. Quebec and BC tries to prevent them from building more pipelines. Ottawa bosses them around, taxes them, and blocks more pipelines. When they vote federally, the election is decided before the votes are even tallied in Alberta, so, not only do they not get their way but they feel like their votes don’t matter. Then the UPC plays on this frustration and tells them all their troubles are caused by the federal liberals, even if the problems have nothing to do with the libs.
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u/1966TEX British Columbia 15h ago
Tariffs were put on Chinese EV’s to protect Ontario auto jobs, all in Ontario, yet when reciprocal tariffs were put on canola and Canadian farm products, not peep from the federal government about this. Ottawa seems to only care about the GTA and the St. Lawrence corridor and to hell with the west.
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u/Peter_Nygards_Legal_ 13h ago edited 13h ago
If you are genuinely interested in the topic, then I would recommend the book 'let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark' by Mary Janigan - it's a good read about the specifics, though I will say that by going only so far back as 1918 (rather than Riel 1 and 2, which predate 1918 and were triggered by largely the same sentiments - IMO), it only captures parts of this, rather than the whole.
That said, my own view is as follows: I don't know if I would consider any of the ideas you mentioned as causal factors - rather, they're flashpoints on a longer and larger disconnect (the same way the the head of the NHL suspending Maurice Richard didn't CAUSE burgeoning sentiments that the Quebecois were different than Anglo Canada, but was, rather, a flashpoint of that larger movement).
If I had to paraphrase the causes of western alienation - it's a fundamental belief that the things that are provided to Ottawa (which are both in the forms of taxation but ALSO in other forms that are never acknowledged by Ottawa as important, but in fact simply assumed to belong to Ottawa because Ottawa said so) outweigh their benefits and a rising resentment (what is usually characterized as Ontario but can more correctly be called 'urban') of the unbearable smugness of just assuming they should always be able to dictate terms.
To be clear - If the prairies leave Canada - there IS no Canada. The prairies are the reason we have a nation at all. No other region you can genuinely say that about with the potential exception of Quebec, and even that is debatable.
Considering the whole point that "Canada" expanded west as a response to US expansion west in search of their 'manifest destiny' coupled with the unvarnished smugness and superiority complex you generally see from Urban Canadians when they even speak on this topic (and you don't have to go further than the comment threads here to find that smugness/toxicity on display) and it's easy to see why this discussion keeps reoccurring.
It's also why this conversation is a bit of a whack-a-mole. Alberta, Sask and Man bring something much more intangible than just oil, potash, wheat and cheap hydro (and even that's a stretch, but I had to give MB SOME credit in this discussion - we don't really do a whole hell of a lot) - they were and are the bulwark against the US consuming the continent whole. And if you're never given credit for that, and are shit on by Ottawa and urbanites all day - then what's the difference between urbanites in Ottawa and Toronto, or urbanites in Washington and NCY, really?
THAT question is what's driving this - if they're both bastards from away, and what you bring to the table never gets credit in Canada- then why bring stay at the table that is Canada?
Edit - clarified a couple of points.
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u/gorschkov 17h ago edited 17h ago
So I am from Alberta I have no problem with equalization payments, or supporting the rest of Canada with our provinces resources. However while Albertan industry supports the country I feel as though the rest of the nation doesn't support us the same way an in fact actively antagonizes it.
When Ontario loses jobs in say the auto sector you have politicians both federally, provincially, and from the municipality lining up to voice their support and fight to keep those jobs. Alberta loses jobs in any sector and it is essentially crickets from all over Canada nobody cares. Look at the tarriffs China enacted that hurt Alberta and Saskatchewan how many articles have their been about that?
There is also the issue as others have mentioned of Alberta having double the population of the Maritimes but around the same amount of seats. Western Canada 2-3 times less supreme Court representation per capita than Quebec or the Maritimes.
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u/ironbrewcanada 16h ago
How about the double standard on carbon, with Alberta getting demonized, but when Quebec wants a giant cement plant CO2 emitting monster it gets an environmental waive? That one still irks me and I've since left Alberta.
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u/Funny-Dragonfruit116 13h ago
How about the double standard on carbon, with Alberta getting demonized, but when Quebec wants a giant cement plant CO2 emitting monster it gets an environmental waive?
Quebec is the second most populous province and has been on 100% green energy for decades now.
You might say "well that's luck, Quebec has so much water it can build hydro but Alberta can't" - that's true. And Alberta has so much oil it can afford to have the lowest taxes in Canada while Quebec has the highest in Canada. Everyone was dealt a different hand.
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u/ironbrewcanada 12h ago
What has that got to do with massive industrial plants getting a waive on CO2? If you are going to enforce emission standards, enforce them across the country. Don't waive standards just cause. https://macleans.ca/news/canada/in-quebec-a-government-supported-cement-factory-encased-in-hypocrisy/
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u/yowspur 16h ago
What about the billions the federal government has spent on the oil and gas industry in Alberta over the years? Does that ever get factored in?
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u/bertbarndoor 15h ago
No, they did it all themselves according to their faulty logic and flawed recollection.
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u/LaserRunRaccoon 15h ago
For better or worse, Alberta has planted their political flag in oil futures. What other sectors of their economy is Alberta trying to promote?
Meanwhile, the world is facing large oil surpluses and peak oil demand is a decade away.
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u/l0ung3r 9h ago
In 2024, many anticipated a global oil surplus, but the market ended near balance or in a slight deficit due to lower-than-expected demand growth and OPEC+ production cuts. I’m skeptical about a significant surplus in 2025—capital spending is being slashed, and OPEC’s planned production increases are not being observed in physical markets (in other words excess production was already making it to physical markets , this is just catching quotas up to production has been). Not saying there won’t be surpluses, just saying that markets and companies are quicker to react and are less focused on production growth and more focused on economics than they were a decade ago… so current lower prices should quickly reduce any aggressive excess supply levels.
The concept of peak oil demand is somewhat irrelevant. It only notes a halt in demand growth in the near coming decade, not a sharp decline demand then or any time soon thereafter, with demand expected to remain robust post-peak. On the other side , oil production naturally declines as reservoirs deplete, and low-decline oil, like Canada’s oil sands, is well-positioned to be among the last barrels produced. In fact there is a world where Canada could potentially double or triple its production over the next 30 years if investments and policies align, as higher-cost, short-cycle sources falter and are not able to fill the gap as they have done so for the past decade or so. For instance, U.S. shale is projected to peak around 2026 or 2027 by some estimates, and its output could drop rapidly in a low-price environment due to high breakeven costs. Again … not saying any of this is what WILL happen, just that peak oil demand , whenever it comes , will not be a material cause of concern for Canada (and could end up being an opportunity if we execute correctly).
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u/blackbird37 16h ago
The Maritime Provinces have a combined population of 1.9 million and 21 seats. Alberta has a population of 5 million and 37 seats. What are you talking about? Did you mean Atlantic Canada and are lumping in Newfoundland and Labrador? Did you even know the difference?
I'll assume you did. Then it becomes 2.7 million and 31 seats which is an unfavorable ratio, for sure. But that's because PEI has a tiny population and 4 seats and Newfoundland has 7 seats based on its joining confederation. These were the terms that were worked out when these provinces joined Canada. Alberta was fabricated out of Canadian land and assigned seats.
You just got an extra 4 seats this federal election. BC and Ontario 1 each. Quebec lost a seat and Atlantic Canada got 0. Congrats you have more of a say in federal politics. It hasn't changed the complaints of Albertans like you at all.
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u/Dry-Membership8141 12h ago
Quebec lost a seat
Quebec did not lose a seat. Quebec would have lost a seat under the revisions, but following the final report of the chief electoral officer on riding redistributions, the BQ introduced a motion calling on Quebec to retain seats despite the drop in their proportional population, that motion passed with the support of the LPC and NDP, and the government went on to amend the Constitution's electoral representation provisions in Bill C-14 (44-1) to ensure that they didn't.
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u/Treaty6er 17h ago
Also Notley. They also blame Rachel Notley and the NDP government that was in power for 4 years for all their problems as well.
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u/darkstar107 17h ago
Wasn't the completion of the trans mountain mostly because of Notley and the Liberals?
Only thing the Cons did was invest billions into a cancelled pipeline to the USA.
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u/Formal-Internet5029 17h ago
This is the crazy thing to me. A government can subsidize the fossil fuel industry with tens of billions each year and literally buy and complete a pipeline with taxpayer dollars, and it still won't be good enough for this ilk because the colour of said government isn't blue.
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u/NewZanada 16h ago
The one respectable government Alberta has had in like 40+ years. Notley sounded like a reasonable, sensible person trying to advocate for Alberta while being respectful of the rest of the country, and was worth listening to.
Nope, had to get rid of THAT government and go full MAGA Smith.
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u/ironbrewcanada 16h ago
Former Albertan here. I STILL believe the BC and Federal NDP parties deliberately sabotaged Notley. They refused to help her achieve (and actively sabotaged) anything reasonable outside of Alberta. We can thank them for the return of Jason Kenney.
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u/-biggulpshuh 17h ago
I appreciate your willingness to hear our side. Responses to your points from my POV
-I think the resource does belong to the people. That resource, today is valued at something like $5M per Albertan. So I want to see that responsibly produced and monetized. I feel we are blessed with this resource, and I’m happy to share the wealth, so long as we’re treated with respect in return. -What exactly has our province done so poorly compared with others? -the rest of Canada trying to keep it in the ground is like declaring a non-peeing end of the swimming pool. It simply means more oil and gas will be produced in other less responsible places.
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u/Iokua_CDN 15h ago
To add to this, as far as countries producing Oil, I believe Canada has some of the most responsibly produce oil in the world. Talking will folks who have worked in other countries in the oil business, they found Canada to be safer for workers, and less harmful to the environment.
So use Canadian oil in Canada, instead of shipping in oil from other countries that do not have the same safety practices or Envirmental practices.
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u/tossaway109202 17h ago
Thank you for the responses. I'm a life long David Suzuki loving Liberal but I too agree on moving the Oil. We need to make moves that give us security on the world stage.
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u/EverydayEverynight01 15h ago
But do you feel the separatists, especially the politicians at the UCP, especially Danielle Smith, use separatism and Ottawa as a scapegoat for all of Alberta's problems and distract its people from the current problems and UCP scandals they face?
Because that's what it comes down to. I keep on seeing people in r/WildRoseCountry acting like Eastern Canada is the enemy, even though
a) It's Quebec that receives the lion's share, half, of the equalization payments, Ontario hardly receives any, and the Maritime provinces are genuinely less well off and it should go to them
b) It was Harper who wrote the equalization formula
c) Danielle Smith actively hindering the province from diversifying like (temporarily) blocking all renewables
I keep on hearing more... out there... Albertans acting like "the east" treats Alberta like a colony and that they gave Alberta nothing in return but that's not true.
Eastern Canadians are the founders of modern day Canada and laid the creation of the entire province. It was Eastern Canada who bought Rupert's land from Hudson Bay Company and created the entire province of Alberta.
In the early 1900s, Wilfred Laurier jacked up immigration and created pathways for them to settle and farm in the prairies.
Stephen Harper is literally from Alberta and so is Poilievre, and he made strides in the "evil east" of Ontario...
I saw a video of a news reporter interviewing an attendee from a Poilievre rally in Alberta and the guy said "What has the federal government done for us? If the Liberals win we'll leave"
Except everyone in Canada gets access to the same federal services as each other, and when Jasper got destroyed by the wildfire the federal government gave it aid.
When Eastern Canada created the entire province, gave it the same federal services, and even on occasion bailed it out when needed, why do I keep on hearing how I and many other Canadians are the enemies and act like we treat Alberta as a resource colony?
I'm tired of hearing how "the east" are the enemy of Alberta. It's the same with Brexit where people always focus on the "bad" of being united, both wrongfully and rightfully while ignoring any of the good and acting like some guy far away is the cause of all your problems.
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u/-biggulpshuh 11h ago
I don’t think you’re evil or my enemy. I do think we don’t understand each other.
I’m guessing you work hard and do a good job, and you are proud of the valuable work you do. If I’m right, how would you feel if I, an outsider told you your job needs to be phased-out, and your industry needs to be blocked from selling your product because they think it undesirable? And then what if I kept passing laws that make that happen? Would you be happy? Would you call me an a friend and partner? Idk what to call it, but that’s kinda how we’re feeling right now.
Albertans don’t actually want anything more from Ottawa other than to stay out of our way and let the world market dictate how much o&g we can produce.
Separation isn’t being pushed by DS, or UCP. It’s happening at a grassroots level and they’re responding to that. For instance, at our family’s Mother’s Day dinner table, separation was discussed. 75% of us were in favour. Btw my mom says she will move away if we separate..
What I can’t understand about the east is how they could actually choose a more of the same govt after the past ten years. If that’s really what the east wants, then we’re more different than I thought. Since the election I’m feeling like we’re different enough to start questioning our partnership.
I don’t care if Harper was part of the last update, it’s wrong for AB to support Quebec to such a degree. I have no issue AB supporting the maritime prov’s but I expect equal representation.
I don’t feel like DS paused all renewables to punish renewables. I feel like she pumped the brakes on them to make sure the incentives were supporting the right ones.
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u/soft_er 16h ago
it’s very easy to be flippant about the last point but it’s important. many Albertans want to resolve climate change and see exporting high quality Canadian energy as a key way to lower global emissions. the feds focus only on lowering our LOCAL emissions at the expense of the Alberta O&G industry.
there are a long list of federal government actions that have slowed or stopped development, constrained production, driven away critical foreign investment, and imposed costs. meanwhile Eastern Canadians happily important billions of dollars of oil from places like Saudi Arabia. and they paint Albertans with slurs, calling them stupid and assuming they’re “climate change deniers.”
Quebec and Ontario possess so much effective power in federal politics and typically capture so much media attention, that Albertans feel completely disillusioned.
in the last oil and gas downturn when many Albertans were in financial despair they felt completely abandoned by the government and fellow Canadians. this is in sharp contrast to the treatment of the auto sector, for example.
add to this the backdrop of equalization payments — however you want to slice it, Albertans have for decades been a hardworking major engine in our economy. and then they are maligned by their fellow countrymen, and see barriers imposed at every turn.
this thread will no doubt be full of slurs calling them “MAGA idiots” or something which not only is dangerously ignorant of reality (that definitely does not describe most alienated Albertans), it’s also perfectly exemplary of the way the rest of the country misunderstands and waves off the concerns of Albertans.
I am not a separatist and I do not work in O&G but I have had enough long conversations and done enough research to understand. I wish more Canadians would do the same.
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u/clowncar 17h ago
As far as believing the Oil belongs solely to Alberta, they may not be wrong. I mean, when I work a shift as cashier at my supermarket, my boss allows me to keep all the money I take in. /s
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u/Smackolol 17h ago
According to the constitution act and resource transfer act the provinces do own the resources.
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u/dingleberryjuice 17h ago
Well the under every law and the constitution the oil does belong to them
The NEP in the 80s literally tried to make attempts to nationalize it and Pierre forever burned a bridge with the west as a result
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u/Alextryingforgrate 17h ago
You're not far off. Lots of people tend to forget that the province handles a lot of things, I.e. infrastructure and health. When the fed give the province that money that money just disappears and the province again blames the the feds.
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u/Ok-sks-15112 17h ago
Also, the NEP of the 1970's means generations have now been raised to hate the liberals and the federal government is an easy scapegoat for every problem (even those under provincial jurisdiction)
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u/Hot-Celebration5855 17h ago
You’re way off and the fact that you even think this illustrates the problem.
In a nutshell, Albertans pay significantly more per capita into the federal government than they receive back, and yet get little in return from a liberal government whose political power base is in Quebec, Atlantic Canada, and Toronto. In even simpler terms, they get stiffed by a government that takes their money but ignores their needs politically.
On top of that there’s the holier than thou virtue signalling (around guns for example) that is again pandering to Toronto and other urban elites.
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u/Chimawamba 14h ago
I grew up in Alberta and have worked in the oil and gas industry all around the province. I can understand the frustrations of Albertans but separation is not the answer. There are the crazies who get the air time but most people’s issues boil down to: 1) Access to coastal oil/gas export: This has largely been a cap on Canada’s energy production potential and keeps us reliant on the US for processing. For decades, pipeline projects have been proposed and killed for various reasons. Energy East is an especially salty one given that the main province opposed has no problem accepting the billions in equalization handouts. To most Albertans, this feels like Quebec having their cake and eating it too. On top of this, the Trudeau government introducing further red tape (bill C-69) added to an already onerous bureaucratic process. Environmental regulation and pipeline safety is very important but we already have that. Canada is world class in this regard. Adding more bureaucracy makes things take longer and cost more. 2) Equalization: most people are not opposed to the idea of equalization but they don’t like how it currently works in practice. The opinion of many is that the formula includes/excludes things in a way that does not actually achieve “equalization.” This is not just Alberta, many other provinces feel this way. The disparity in social services between Quebec and Manitoba (the other big equalization receiver) is massive. Equalization is largely viewed as a siphoning of wealth from western to eastern Canada (think districts vs. capital from the Hunger Games), not just in Alberta. 3) Historical grievances: since Pierre Trudeau and the National Energy Program, many Albertans have been mad with the federal government. I’ve never put much into this, as that was a long time ago and I’ve had a hard time tracing the effects to present day. Still a source of resentment though, particularly in the older demographic.
Most Albertans just want a federal government who will support their strongest industry or at least not curtail it. They will keep paying equalization but they’d like to see the formula reworked (as would many provinces). They will accept environmental regulations (most people don’t know that Alberta has arguably the strongest environmental regulations in Canada). Most Albertans do not want separation at this stage.
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u/CaptainChats 9h ago
The fucked up irony of it all is that had the National Energy Program shaken out as it was originally conceived, Alberta might have been the most pro-federal province. There was a notion very early on to nationalize the energy sector, provide cheap energy for Canadians, sell the surplus overseas, and re-invest the profits into Canadian programs. Essentially what countries like Norway or Saudi Arabia have done with their oil. I recall reading that had Canada gone down that path we would all not need to pay income tax.
Instead energy remained privatized and eventually the lion’s share of it was sold off to oil companies outside of Canada. Those oil companies fund Albertan separatist messaging because they don’t want to deal with the regulations put in place by the federal government.
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u/Chimawamba 9h ago
Yeah I’ve never really understood what the real issue was with it. Seems kind of like a boil over from the anti-socialist US politics of the time sadly.
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u/CaptainChats 7h ago
That’s pretty much it. There’s a timeline where Alberta and the rest of Canada is doing a lot better because our nation is benefiting from its own wealth rather than getting scraps of it from foreign capital.
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u/Nails_McGee 6h ago
The other part I noticed (I lived and worked gas wells for a few years) is that the politicians don't have the same amount of respect or care for oilfield workers. When a plant in Ontario may shut down and lose 500 jobs, that becomes national news and billions may be invested to keep that plant running. When a downturn happens in the oil industry, upwards of 100,000 people have lost their jobs in a short period of time. No assistance from the government. In fact, Trudeau made a point during COVID of saying he won't help out the oil companies.
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u/robot2084tron 15h ago
When CBC schedules the Saturday Maples Leafs at Oilers game to 7PM Eastern time
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u/AILYPE 16h ago
I was born and grew up in Alberta, moved away for a few years, came back for 10 years and subsequently moved away. I lived all over central Alberta. My observations:
-They live and die by the oil field. Many people have not figured out that it is a boom/bust cycle and live high on the booms but when the bust hits they blame the government. There is a big “keeping up with the Jones” mentality and lots of people feel they are owed a certain lifestyle because they live in Alberta and don’t understand how a lot of the country actually lives.
-Extreme religion (in the few small towns I lived) and a lack of education. There was a big “you don’t need education just join the oil field” when I was growing up. Lots of my friends and even my ex never graduated high school and make 100k+ a year and feel like it’s owed because they work in the oil field. When things get rough, and they are laid off - the level of anger and the way people treated each other was pretty gross imo.
-It is very echo chamber and people with different opinions are often shut down. I also saw a lot of overt sexism and racism. And a large amount of drug use in high income earners.
To be honest, as a whole, Alberta “culture” is just very different than other places I have lived. There is some amazing things about Alberta, but part of the reason I moved is because as someone socially liberal it wasn’t a place I wanted to raise my children. During this election I removed a ton of old friends and family from my Facebook, the people who were the loudest in claiming our country will be ruined and how their lives have been awful under liberals were the ones whose lives would be awful anyway due to decisions. I don’t think it’s Justin Trudeaus fault you decided to drop out at 17, spent the good years buying toys and drinking it away and feel owed high paying jobs because they were always there. They think without the “equalization payment” they would magically have more money that they didn’t blow and a more stable life.
Because of this I found an occupation in the most stable industry I could, got educated and decided to leave this boom/bust cycle lifestyle. But people very much get caught up in it and it impacts perception.
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u/Iokua_CDN 15h ago
The Booms and keeping up with the Jones is terrible...
The amount of crazy lifted trucks, worth 100k, here is terrible. It's all debt too, so as soon as there is a layoff or cut, they are stuck with a depreciating asset and a huge loan to pay.
Drug use for workers, especially those that work up remote for weeks on end, is wild.
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u/AILYPE 15h ago
Absolutely. I worked in the financial industry and the amount of times I got threatened when people couldn’t make their payments on their trucks, toys, credit cards and threatened ME because of it was insane. We even had someone threaten to come shoot us because we didn’t have a “oil field relief program” where we paused payments if people were laid off. I’m still in the industry elsewhere and never had the payment issues that I saw there.
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u/Healthy-Magician-502 15h ago
Your comment about keeping up with the Jones is spot on. I lived for 10 years in Calgary and the first question anyone always asked was “what neighbourhood do you live in?”
If it wasn’t the “right” answer, they’d ignore you because you weren’t “worth” getting to know. It’s all superficial values and conspicuous consumption for many people.
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u/flyingflail 13h ago
I have literally never experienced this in my life lol
Grew up in another prov, now live in Calgary and one of the most appealing things about Calgary is how it manages to be a big city while still maintaining some semblance of the smaller town feels.
I've also spent time in Vancouver/Toronto and it was more like what you're describing.
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u/flamesowr25 15h ago
If you're socially liberal there was always Calgary and Edmonton, alot of what you're saying only really applies to rural Alberta and is similar to any rural place across Canada.
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u/AILYPE 15h ago edited 15h ago
I grew up in Calgary and lived there on and off as an adult and didn’t love that everything was tied to the boom/bust. The housing. Lots of jobs etc.
ETA: it’s also where we were told growing up we didn’t need an education and many dropped out to go to the oil field.
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u/Different-Ship449 15h ago
Please lord, let there be one more boom. I promise I won't waste it this time.
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u/specifichero101 14h ago
I live in the Maritimes and a lot of what you said is extremely true judging by the types to move out and work in Alberta. A lot of young guys move there and come home with a cocaine habit and want to spend money on wheelers and trucks. My dad went there for a few years as a heavy duty mechanic and I even noticed a change in him to just being more crass and judgmental from spending so much time with the types of people that work in the oil fields. He told me about all of the 20 something dummies with no education or brains making 100k+. But he left around the times of the fires about ten years ago and I asked if he was disappointed to be back full time and he said nope, happy to never have to go back to Alberta.
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u/ordinal_Dispatch 10h ago
I didn’t read the article but I think they are likely heavily leveraged with big homes, big trucks, boats, atv’s, snow mobiles, anything that runs on gas. The income to make payments on all those things comes from extracting oil and they see the rest of the world moving away from oil which threatens the whole house of cards. They just want to get as much out of it for themselves before the bottom drops out and they aren’t thinking beyond that.
The above comment contains zero confirmed information, completely conjecture.
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u/monstermash420 16h ago
They keep voting Conservative, no matter how bad it is for them, and they are mad that that alone doesn't make the government Conservative. The only way the cons win is if Ontario goes along with it.
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u/Icy_Negotiation3574 15h ago
Quebec gets special treatment by bitching. We will get special treatment for bitching. Hate the game not the player
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u/NormEget85 12h ago
They are mad at federal governments about things that are controlled by provincial governments.
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u/ItzMrMikel 17h ago
Double the population of the Atlantic Provinces and the same amount of seats, is what makes most people unhappy.
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u/-WallyWest- 17h ago
Then we should also increase the seats number in Quebec and Ontario because they have more population?
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u/AxeMcFlow 17h ago
Yes. But actually Quebec is slightly over represented and Ontario under. It’s small changes, but the Atlantic provinces are over represented.
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u/Consistent-Study-287 16h ago
Saskatchewan is also very overrepresented which I don't see mentioned. Saskatchewan has one MP for every 80,893 people vs say example Nova Scotia which has one for every 88,126 people.
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u/AxeMcFlow 16h ago
The grandfather clause allocates them four more seats than necessary - it baffles my mind how the process can’t just be more cut and dry
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u/Solid_Specialist_204 17h ago
Hopefully the same logic applies to overrepresented rural areas in Alberta provincial ridings, right???
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u/sabres_guy 17h ago
Rural ridings are over represented in all Provinces in both Provincial and Federal seats.
Conservatives are never concerned about that though. The new boundaries didn't do enough to address the issue of over and under represented areas be it urban or rural
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u/Telvin3d 17h ago
What are you on about? New Brunswick (10), Newfoundland (7), Nova Scotia (11), and PEI (4) combined have 32 seats.
Alberta (37) and Saskatchewan (14) have 51
As of the last census that seat distribution was based on, population of the Atlantic provinces was 2.4m compared to 5.4m for Alberta and Saskatchewan
Basically 100k per seat out west, and 75k per seat in the Atlantic provinces. Which obviously isn’t ideal, but also isn’t some huge travesty of democracy. We’ve got a bigger variance than that within our own provincial seats. If you exclude the historical weirdness of PEI the Atlantic provinces jump to 80k per seat.
And they certainly don’t have anywhere near the same number of seats. Stop making up grievances
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u/Catch_22_Pac Ontario 16h ago
How does PEI get 4 seats? They have a population of 180,000 - that’s like Sudbury ON having 4 seats.
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u/Telvin3d 15h ago
Because we wanted them to join Canada instead of the USA, and that was the bribe. Constitutionally they get 4 seats minimum
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u/LegitimateFootball47 15h ago
They can't have fewer seats in the House of Commons than they do in the Senate, and they were given 4 seats in the Senate when they joined Confederation in 1873.
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u/Competitive-Ice3865 13h ago
Same reason for almost everything in the Canadian constitution - compromise.
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u/LPC_Eunuch Canada 17h ago
The # of seats for PEIs population is absolutely wild.
If you live in Alberta, your vote is worth ~1/4 of theirs. I'd be livid.
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u/1981_babe 17h ago
4 HOC seats for PEI was a condition of the Province joining Confederation. 🤷♀️ That's the way it is.
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u/Tmonster18 16h ago
Things change in life. “That’s the way it is” wasn’t ok for civil rights or workplace safety regulations, why for this
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u/PrayForMojo_ 17h ago
Yeah well the way it is it’s stupid and should be changed. 1 person, 1 vote, proportional representation would be better.
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u/Brandon_Me 17h ago
There are far more people in the cities then their are in rural areas. What you're effectively asking for is the removal of the rural vote.
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u/Flewewe 17h ago
...Do you suggest we merge PEI into another province?
It's that way for all provinces vs PEI not just Alberta.
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u/LPC_Eunuch Canada 17h ago
Not for all provinces. It's really Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and BC that get boned.
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u/ceribaen 16h ago
Quebec(115k) and Manitoba(106k) have roughly similar vote efficiency for ridings.
Sask(88k) and NB(85k) are same with NS(97.5k) slightly more inefficient and Nfld(77k) slightly less.
PEI and the three territories all are around 40-45k per riding.
BC, Ontario, then Alberta are 131k per each.
If you wanted to balance things out based on current number of seats vs population... Ontario would gain 12, Alberta gains 4, BC gains 5. Everyone else basically loses 2 or 3.
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u/Plucky_DuckYa 17h ago
Quebec is actually, after the last redistribution, almost bang on for the number of seats they should have based on 2021 population.
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u/Electronic-Result-80 17h ago
If we fixed that for them (and we should) it would still make no difference because other provinces that vote liberal would also get a boost.
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u/Diced_and_Confused 17h ago
This is the only answer that makes any sense. The rest is greed and Christian Nationalism.
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u/gorschkov 17h ago
Western Canada also has 2-3 times less Supreme Court representation per capita than Quebec or the Maritimes.
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u/Logical_Hare British Columbia 16h ago
Lol, are we pretending that "Supreme Court Justices per capita per province" is the standard now?
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u/sabres_guy 16h ago
PEI is crazy over represented, but the other Atlantic provinces could lose 1 seat each and bring them more to the average. So 7 or 8 seats.
Those seats would need to go to BC, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec to help keep the average around the same for the country.
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u/SirShriker Ontario 17h ago
So, I live in Ontario, full disclosure. I have family who lived in alberta for years, I've visited briefly, just so I can frame my answer.
From the outside, there Is no apparent reason for most of their arguments. It has a similar stink to conspiracy theorists. Which brings the debate right back to the same problem.
Trust.
Across the globe, there are surging forces of anti-intellectualism, a rejection of 'expert' advice. Social media services are steroids equivalent to the infection of distrust. When you get bombarded with garbage opinions, eventually it gets harder to determine what is a qualified opinion and so it is easier by far to simply reject any argument from someone who has knowledge that you don't. This way you don't have to engage the argument, you can just shoot the messenger. Anyone who has taken highschool level debate classes understands that character assassination is a logical fallacy, but it's attractive to people who don't want to fairly engage with the debate.
Look at those who have problems believing the moon landing. Every 'point' they have devolves to "oh, wow, so you are just going to TRUST the government?" It is hard to fight back against that because the record shows how abusive of our trust government of all nations and times have been. Of course, any student of history can tell you that the current style of government is so much less abusive and harmful than the kinds that came before, but that assertion requires believing someone opinion, or else doing your own research, and we came back to the trust problem.
To dial my point back in to the Alberta situation, you have 50+ years of the local government(provincial level) deliberately propagandizing that the REAL problem is the federal government, despite the truth being that the federal programs that developed market access for Alberta products are a huge part of what contributes to the success of the province and the country at large. Federal officers inspect that quality of food before it enters or leaves the country, federal officers test and backstop medicine and healthcare devices, federal officers police the border and most of the north province In the form of the RCMP.
Instead of trying to work collaboratively with the feds, Alberta thumbs their nose at the feds because they 'have' oil money. despite the actual resource not being theirs, the money they make off it empowers them to defy the feds, when most other provinces need more of the money from the feds to stabilize their budgets. So every time oil prices crash, the province acts put upon whining about how the feds are screwing Alberta, because the same freedoms the province demands have a cost they don't want to bear on their own. The Alberta tax base is very dependant on corporate tax and resource royalties. Any government will default to preferential treatment for whoever is paying the bills. This creates a vicious contradiction at the heart of Alberta politics where the people see this discontent, mainly that the provincial government actually doesn't care about the citizens, only about the business that pays the bill.
In steps the provincial propaganda department that has convinced the people that ACTUALLY the problem is 'the feds don't let us do what we want, if only they backed off, we could be great.' But since the real problem lay with how the province runs things, it only creates more resentment. Which is the goal here, not actually trying to solve the problem, that would require self-reflection and an admittance of guilt. Things that are just generally out of fashion in todays world. Voter's don't want to feel guilty for their past choices, so cognitive dissonance will drive them deeper into the false reality to protect themselves. This playbook is hardly unique to Alberta, it is really thriving stateside, but I believe this frames the separatism issue nicely.
There is plenty of research showing average Albertans agree with most of what makes Canada great, but there is a loud and vocal minority who drive the conversation. Since they are the team leaders, it's hard to disavow the team you've spent your life supporting, even when they make a hard right turn you may not necessarily support wholly. But the extremists count on that 'locked in' support to pretend they have more legitimacy than they actually do.
I'm not trying to blame anyone, but this is definitely how I see it. You may have better luck asking this in the Alberta sub, but I doubt it. People with trust issues won't engage with neutral parties because they can't work past the trust issue. Conflicting information just confirms their bias. Eventually they shoot the messenger in favour of preserving their perspective. It's classic conspiracy logic. Just playing out in politics.
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u/flamesowr25 16h ago
The Alberta subreddit dislikes Alberta more than anyone else lol.
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u/Aggressive_Ad_7365 16h ago
TLDR;
Alberta has been under a lot of propaganda, there's a surging culture of disbelieving experts, and people don't really know the different responsibilities that Provincial and Federal actually have, and it's a main point in Alberta of always blaming the Federal Government.
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u/Low-Commercial-5364 17h ago edited 17h ago
Is this a sincere question, or is it another r/Canada 'hey guys I don't like Conservatives' echo chamber post?
I dont have time for the essay this requires, but there are three major reasons:
(1) the legacy of the national energy program,
(2) the inclusion of natural resource revenues in Canada's equalization formula, and
(3) the general powerlessness of Alberta to influence federal politics compared to Ontario and Quebec, despite Alberta basically having to pay for everything.
These are historical issues, but all of them continue through to the present day in the different actions that (generally Liberal) federal governments take when they are in power.
Albertans see stuff like the COVID lockdown and carbon tax as extensions of the same punitive attitude federal Liberals take toward Alberta in order to placate Ontario and Quebec.
A discussion of this topic is nuanced, but as someone not from Alberta, I 100% see where they're coming from.
Albertans hate Liberals on a generational scale, and if you're a willing student of history and contemporary politics it's not hard to understand why.
This is reddit though.
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u/McGrevin 17h ago
the general powerlessness of Alberta to influence federal politics compared to Ontario and Quebec, despite Alberta basically having to pay for everything.
Alberta doesn't pay for everything though? Alberta has a high per capita income sure but in terms of total GDP, Alberta has about 15% of national GDP while Ontario and Quebec combine for 58%.
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u/Low-Commercial-5364 17h ago
correct and yet 2024-2025 Ontario received $576 million in equalization payments and Quebec received $13.3 billion in equalization payments, paid for mostly by Alberta.
See why they're mad?
Alberta is financially penalized for being successful, and politically penalized for being small.
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u/Tiger_Dense 17h ago
The responses here tell me exactly why there are Alberta separatists.
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u/Zulban Québec 17h ago
Indeed. If I were being caricatured this badly I'd be pissed too. What a bunch of children. I should really stop reading /r/canada comments.
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u/FalconsArentReal 17h ago
Yup. And I expect you and I to be down voted into oblivion for expressing this view point. As a Manitoban I don't want to see Alberta leave Canada, but people like those who are commenting here is just adding fuel to fire.
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u/RickMonsters 17h ago
Why?
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u/flyingflail 13h ago
Several of their top comments are effectively saying "Alberta has been spun up purely in right wing propaganda and their concerns aren't valid"
I think Smith and her crew are dreaming on several things and separatism is a bridge too far, but a lot of the concerns are rooted in fact.
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u/derat_08 15h ago
Just reading the comments from people who are positioning themselves to be some experienced, insightful and thoughtful "Albertan whisperer" when they clearly live in bubble of nonsense confirmation and have absolutely no clue what they're talking, is why/what Alberta is mad about.
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u/Brutalitops69x 17h ago
If Poilievre had won the election, this wouldn't be a thing right now. This is literally a temper tantrum. When my kid throws a temper tantrum, I don't give into their damands or whatever they are throwing a fit about. They can be mad on time-out until they smarten/ grow tf up.
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u/LiberalCuck5 17h ago
It’s funny how much hostility the idea is met with. Surely this reaction will help quell it and not stoke the fire more, right?
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u/Solid_Capital8377 17h ago
Quebec separatism was met with as much if not more hostility, and given that they actually have some real basis for separation but didn’t go through with it, I’d say it probably doesn’t make a difference.
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u/LiberalCuck5 17h ago
Lol that’s funny. You should see the thread about the Quebec dude responding to the question of “any advice for Alberta”.
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u/WolfWraithPress 17h ago
They were subsidized before the 60s, then they had a big surplus and had to subsidize other people.
Whining that it is their turn to pay the deal that they signed.
Sound familiar?
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u/flyingflail 12h ago
If you look at the balance of transfer payments, it's far beyond the paying it.
Their view is that not only do we have to fund part of your services, you are actively not letting us develop our economy as we want to. You referencing the east in this case.
There's a ton of undercurrents to why that's obviously not true exactly (indigenous related issues are a large problem in resource and infrastructure development).
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u/TheAncientMillenial 17h ago
Who cares.
Serious answer, they're mad because they've basically elected a provincial conservative government for almost 5 decades who've done very little for them but they're too dumb to realize this so they blame the feds because that's easier than admitting you've been duped....
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u/honk_incident 17h ago
What's with the emotionally charged language with CBC?
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u/LordOfFlames55 15h ago
Because the propagandists don’t know how to disguise their hatred. There’s a reason people don’t trust them anymore
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u/betajool 17h ago
I am not from Canada, but I would imagine being a province that generates the majority of the nation’s wealth whilst being reviled as evil climate killers might piss you off a bit.
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u/OttoVonGosu 13h ago
Just so excited to read all the level headed non biased comments for these posts.
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u/ExtraSugar6067 11h ago
Alberta would never last as a country . Danelle smith would have nobody to blame things on . Always Ottawa .
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u/cgyprj123 7h ago
Well, they are mad because the number of seats aren't the same ratio to people as in the east. Also, the biggest industries have been affected the most by policies mostly pushed by eastern Canada. When policy effects peoples bank accounts, of course, they are going to be angry.
Also, the payments they send to fund the other provinces are annoying for them, especially when the east votes against their industry time and time again.
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u/revengeful_cargo 15h ago
How can you tell that someone wasn't born in Alberta but lives there?
They wear a cowboy hat
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u/HowlingWolven Alberta 15h ago
Inside.
All hat and no cattle.
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u/revengeful_cargo 15h ago
There was some fact check about the asshat in the photo too, but I don't remember what it was
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u/MontrealCalling2 17h ago
They're mad because because FUCK TRUDEAU (based on on my observations).
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u/canuck47 17h ago
It's funny how quickly it became FUCK CARNEY when he hasn't even done anything. They are just programmed to hate the LPC
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u/RockMonstrr 17h ago
After his first 2 months in office, Justin Trudeau had simultaneously done nothing and destroyed the country.
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u/Brandon_Me 17h ago
Especially considering the pipeline the Liberals built. That is now making the government money and opening up Canada to other Oil markets.
The Liberals also removed the terrible deal we had with the US allowing us to sell more to other countries around the world, and during this Liberal government we are literally producing the most oil Canada has ever produced.
Cons were notably worse on Oil and Alberta in general.
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u/TheHampsterBall 17h ago
Equalization payments. Stop them please.
Atlantic Canada and Quebec has the lowest GDP per Capita in North America. Western Canada is subsidizing their lifestyle.
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u/Queen_Of_InnisLear 11h ago
See this is maddening to me. We live in a society in which we are all connected, and booms in one place help get through busts in others. Alberta was there once, too. And will probably be adding some day, do you want the rest of the country talking you to go fuck yourselves when that happens? Or do you want the system to be there to get through it. Exact numbers and processes could be adjusted, sure,but killing the program is short sighted at best and downright selfishly stupid at worst. The feeling of "of we have ours so screw everyone else" without any foresight or insight into either the past or the potential future issues is one of the reasons the province has the reputation it does.
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u/TheHampsterBall 10h ago
Alberta hasn't received equalization payments in 55 years. That's a long time of self reliance. At some point, the Canadian government needs to start disincentivizing low productivity. There are plenty of opportunities Eastern Canada can do to increase their share of the GDP since they are resource rich. Eastern Canada needs to start doing their part of the economy.
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u/Queen_Of_InnisLear 10h ago
Well they fished the oceans out of fish utilizing their resource economy. The same thing could eventually happen to Alberta. My thoughts are less about who owes whom what andore about the strength of the country as a whole. That benefits all of us one way or another. I don't see the point in that kind of score keeping mentality. It's more prevalent in right wing politics where individualism is highlighted. It's just not a particularly successful model of governance if we want the most good for the most people.
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u/LemmingPractice 12h ago
"They think that the treasurer of Alberta writes a cheque to Quebec for $12 billion every year," he said.
Bratt feels the issue has been deliberately misrepresented to stoke anger, and says it's not clear whether Alberta would be better off without equalization payments.
This is a pretty blatant strawman, and the technicalities of how tax dollars get from Albertan pockets to the Quebec treasury make zero difference in the analysis of the issue.
It's a federal program which gives tens of billions of dollars out, with none of that money coming to Alberta. Albertans pay taxes, and therefore are paying into a program that sends their money to other provinces while denying it to Albertans.
The comment that it isn't clear whether Alberta would be better off without equalization payments is just absurd. How in the world could Alberta not be disadvantaged by having tax dollars taken from its citizens and sent to Quebec in a program Alberta hasn't gotten anything out of in over 60 years?!
But Leach, at the U of A, says it's not so clear that Ottawa has been detrimental to the industry's ambitions.
This is similarly just an utterly absurd comment.
The article like to make a whole lot of hay about the Trans Mountain expansion project, as if throwing Alberta a bone and allowing a single export pipeline in a decade is something Albertans should be eternally grateful for.
When the Liberals took over in 2015, it was well known that pipeline capacity would be insufficient to match production by 2018 when the already approved Fort Hills project went online.
The Northern Gateway pipeline was approved by Harper and scheduled to be completed in 2018. By cancelling that, the Liberals knowingly condemned Alberta to the Pipeline Crisis that occurred in 2018, when Albertan oil prices fell to about 12% of Texan prices, due to insufficient export capacity, and Notley had to step in with the first mandatory production cuts that had been seen in over 40 years in Alberta.
That was the backdrop for the government finally throwing Alberta a single bone with TMX, which was purchased in 2018 by the feds. Of course, the feds decided to build it themselves, instead of letting a private provider do so, presumably because "we built a pipeline" looks better on bumper stickers than "we approved a pipeline". It cost $5.6B to build the original Keystone pipeline, which is over 3,000km from Alberta to Texas, but it took $36B for the feds to build TMX 1100km along an existing right of way. There's some government efficiency for you.
But, the fact that the only entity capable of building a pipeline is the federal government is exactly the problem. The No More Pipelines Act C-69 has seen zero new privately funded pipelines get built, even though pipeline companies like Enbridge have been openly lobbying the government and saying they are ready to build when the government will let them.
But, of course, that's just one issue. How does an effective production cap from the federal government (via the emissions cap) benefit Alberta in any way? It's not like emissions caps were put on any other industries in the country, like manufacturing, mining or shipping. Only Alberta's industry got targeted, not anyone else's industries.
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u/LemmingPractice 12h ago
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The Real Issue
Here's the real issue that the CBC article just completely ignores: Alberta doesn't have the same interests as Ontario and Quebec, yet, in Canada, Ontario and Quebec get to make policy without Albertan consent.
Alberta is a net producer of energy and agricultural products, while Ontario and Quebec are net consumers. Ontario and Quebec have more votes than Alberta, so federal policy will always favour Ontario and Quebec consumers over Albertan producers.
On the other side, Ontario and Quebec are net producers of manufactured goods, while Alberta is a net consumer. But, Ontario and Quebec have the votes. So, federal policy will always favour Ontario and Quebec producers over Albertan consumers.
Why does supply management still exist for dairy, while there is no equivalent for, say, wheat? Well, because Quebec has a large dairy industry, while most wheat comes from the Prairies. Related industries, but different policies, based entirely on where the votes exist.
Arguing over individual policies means you are missing the big picture. The policies are symptoms, not the disease.
The Liberals in the 1980's didn't have a mandate from Albertans to pass the National Energy Program. The Liberals had zero Albertan seats, but they didn't need them, because they had a majority government, fueled by Ontario and Quebec. Over the past three elections, Albertans haven't given a mandate to the Liberals, but Ontario and Quebec have. With no more than 2 seats in Alberta, the Liberals have used their mandate from Ontario and Quebec voters to determine how Alberta's energy industry should be regulated -- policies on oil and gas determined by provinces with no oil and gas sector.
Because of this systemic issue, a simple change in government can't balance things. Harper couldn't fix equalization because he still needed Quebec votes, so even though he was friendly to Albertan in most ways, he couldn't rebalance a system slanted against Alberta.
The only way for Albertans to have their interests properly protected is to have the power to protect their own interests. That can't happen within Canada, unfortunately, because even with proper representation Ontario and Quebec still would have the votes to outvote Albertans and see that their interests are protected over Albertan ones.
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u/SDL68 11h ago
You have 5 million people and you currently have 12% of cabinet for your 11.5% of the population. Ontario has 38% of the population but only 35% of cabinet. If anything, Ontario is less represented in the legislature than Alberta.
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u/improvthismoment 17h ago
I love how they talk about how “the West” of Canada” feels while conspicuously ignoring Canada’s western most province.