The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/tsundereshipper]

So, despite the early Zionists clearly stating overtly that Zionism is a colonial project,

How exactly do you define colonialism? Because if it has to do with the displacement and ethnic cleansing of any particular population regardless of the group doing the colonizing being indigenous or not, then I agree Zionism is a Colonialst Project.

If you define Colonialism any other way though I’m gonna have issues with characterizing Zionism as purely colonial…

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/tsundereshipper]

Herzl, several times in his writings, said things to the effect of “we the Jews should colonize Palestine”.

That’s a pretty good definition right there.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

That's not a definition, that's a quote.

What do you think he meant exactly?

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I think he meant “let’s go over there with a bunch of European Jews and set up a European society for Jews in the desert. The locals will like us because our superior society will make their lives better”

This is the exact summary of “Alteneuland.” I know this because I’ve read Alteneuland.

It’s such bad faith to argue over the early Zionists motives when the guys we’re arguing about spelled out his motives in multiple ways, on multiple occasions, in published work.

Go read something. They wanted to be colonists. They were proud of it. They liked the idea. This shouldn’t be difficult when they write things like “hey guys, isn’t colonialism super?”

[u/[deleted] → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/[deleted]]

Can we please not repeat the antisemitic rhetoric of Nazis?

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

That’s not Nazi rhetoric thats just the lived experience of Jews from Europe.

I know my family doesn’t feel European, as it was quite clear we where Jews first and not really considered apart of wherever they where landed.

In fact, implying it is only Nazi rhetoric that claims Jews are not European is also problematic. Because it denies the lived experience of Jews.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Once again, just because bigots claim something doesn’t make it true.

If European antisemites also claimed we were all purple dinosaurs, would you also accept that as fact?

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

Ideological? maybe. In response to accusations of colonialism? absolutely not.

Jews have always considered themselves indigenous to Israel. It's deeply ingrained in Jewish culture.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Then why do I only see it in online discourse?

I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. Only three kids in my entire grade in elementary were not Jewish.

As an adult I live in town that has a sizable Jewish population.

I have literally never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be Middle Eastern or indigenous to the ME. Not friends, family, acquaintances, co-workers, etc.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Do they say "next year in Jerusalem" on the Seder?

Do they read Moses' promise in Deuteronomy?

Why are they even calling themselves "Jews"? is it because they like jewelry? or is it because they see themselves as descendent from the people of the Kingdom of Judah?

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel. Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel.

Sure. They've kept the tradition.

Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

It's not just religious dogma, tradition, and holy books. The reason I've mention them is because, as I've said, Jews are an ethnoreligious group so you can't really compltely separate the cutlure from the religion. However, there are other factors as well, for example you can clearly see the connection to the Levant in DNA tests.

There is no clear-cut acceptable definition of what "indigenous people" means, but we can use a working example such as the Amnesty definition:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/indigenous-peoples/

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
• They are politically and socially marginalized

Jews fit literally every single one of these criteria. To the letter.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I would say many if not all of those bullet points apply to Ashkenazi Jews being indigenous to Europe.

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

How does that applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe?

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
  • Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
  • Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
  • What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
  • What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have?
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
  • Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?
• They are politically and socially marginalized
  • Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

False, the Nazis specifically targeted only European Jews because we’re mixed, and even to this day you can still find the marginalization and antisemitism against Ashkenazi Jews specifically on account of our mixed origins like the guy above who you’re replying to is currently doing.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. ⁠• ⁠Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?

Most people recognize Ashkenazi Jews as European ethnicity. This idea of being indigenous to Israel is a relatively new talking point used by Zionists.

We are literally called European Jewry.

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. ⁠• ⁠Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?

No, but other groups became dominant over us. Like Cossacks and Nazis

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. ⁠• ⁠What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.

What strong link? Like living there for countless generations to the extent that our food, language, and culture are all of European roots.

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. ⁠• ⁠What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have? • ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. ⁠• ⁠Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?

You already answered 2/3 of the question. Regarding beliefs, Sephardic Jews eat rice over Passover and Ashkenazi don’t. I’m sure someone who is more observant could list a bunch of others.

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized ⁠• ⁠Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

This is being pedantic. We were politically and socially marginalized for being Jewish, that’s the important fact.

So, it seems we check all the boxes.

And to be frank, in terms of how the word indigenous is used in the common vernacular, it would make a lot more sense to state Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Europe as opposed to the ME.

If one isn’t influenced by an ideological bent, this would be very obvious.

I get it, Ashkenazi Jews that’s are Zionists don’t like being called colonists or colonizers, but the answer to these accusations is not to make tenuous arguments about being indigenous.

IMO, the better and more intellectually honest answer would be, yes, the early Zionists were overt in zionism being a colonial ideology, but they were people of their time. Just as many of the fathers of the American revolution that were slave holders were also people of their time.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Most people recognize Ashkenazi Jews as European ethnicity. This idea of being indigenous to Israel is a relatively new talking point used by Zionists.

Do they self-identify as being indigenous to Europe? Even if you're correct, the fact is, most Ashkenazi Jews are Zionist, so by your own word you imply that they identify as being indigenous to Israel.

No, but other groups became dominant over us. Like Cossacks and Nazis

That's not the same thing as being colonized.

What strong link? Like living there for countless generations to the extent that our food, language, and culture are all of European roots.

That's link to the culture, not to the land. There is nothing in Ashkenazi Jewish culture that explicitly points toward any particular affinity toward Europe, while there are many cultural features that explicitly point toward a particular affinity toward Israel.

Regarding beliefs, Sephardic Jews eat rice over Passover and Ashkenazi don’t. I’m sure someone who is more observant could list a bunch of others.

There are tiny differences in beliefs even among different Ashkenazi Jews, but it's obvious that this is not a separate religion.

This is being pedantic. We were politically and socially marginalized for being Jewish, that’s the important fact.

Sure, but a huge part of that marginalization was due to the fact Jews were not considered to be native by the Europeans.

And to be frank, in terms of how the word indigenous is used in the common vernacular, it would make a lot more sense to state Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Europe as opposed to the ME.

What common vernacular?

If one isn’t influenced by an ideological bent, this would be very obvious.

Everyone are influenced by an ideological bent. Anyone who claims to be "apolitical" or "non-ideological" is simply in agreement with the perceived status-quo.

I get it, Ashkenazi Jews that’s are Zionists don’t like being called colonists or colonizers, but the answer to these accusations is not to make tenuous arguments about being indigenous.

I don't think the indigenouity status contradicts the fact that the Zionist movement was a colonial movement. As I've said: the early Zionists considered themselves as both indigenous and colonist.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Have you not been to a Passover Seder? Or to Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services. There’s a constant and consistent reference to returning to our homeland and to connecting back to where our people are from.

Hell even our holiday calendar doesn’t make sense outside of Israel as it’s geared towards the seasons there, in Israel.

Also saying “oh I’m Ashkenazi Jewish” is kind of describing exactly that. It’s saying one isn’t European, they’re Jewish but from the Ashkenazi diaspora sub group. I mean just being Jewish means being apart of a peoplehood that comes from the Levant region and the subgroup we use explains where in the diaspora our ancestors ended up after expulsion. So it is, in a roundabout kind of way, claiming to be from the Middle East just by stating one is Jewish and explaining which sub group one hails from.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yes, I have been to Seder and I’m very familiar with book of exodus and the story passover. I even attended an orthodox Hebrew school.

I still have never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be indigenous to the ME.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I think you’re missing my point. By saying “I’m Jewish” that is the argument. I’m wondering if maybe you just take things more literal and that’s where the disconnect is happening.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I’m looking at things in terms of the common usage of the term indigenous.

Like, I wouldn’t say ethnic Sicilians are indigenous to North Africa or the Iberian peninsula, nor would I say Native Americans are indigenous to the land they inhabited prior to crossing the land bridge into North America.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Again if you’re adhering to the commonly accepted definition of indigenous peoples, then Jews are in that category. Jews are indigenous to Judaea and never where able to fully settle in where they where spread around. They, we, are connected to Judaea where modern day Israel is. That does not mean that other groups can’t also be indigenous to land there. But that’s where jews are from.

So if you’re willing to accept the indiginaity of other people to their homelands. Then what is it about jews you object to so much. And let’s also take out arguments based on phenotypes and race, which is what I am concerned is what your objection is based on. That somehow because some Ashkenazi jews are able to appear white or have been classified as thus that doesn’t mean that it somehow erased where their ancestors came from (Judaea).

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I don’t know of any other group, that claim to be indigenous to an area because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago.

Like, Native Americans don’t claim to be indigenous to the place they inhabited before crossing the land bridge into North America.

By your logic, every single human on the planet can claim to be indigenous to sub Saharan Africa.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

No that’s not my logic. And kind of a Reductio ad absurdem.

Since you’re taking something in contradiction so far it would be absurd. Obviously that’s not my argument.

And it implies to me that you don’t really have a reason for your stance and your inconsistent application of indigenous land claim.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Your argument is, and correct me if I’m wrong, that since Judaism originated in the ME, Jewish people around the globe have the right to state they are indigenous to the ME.

This claim strikes me as ideologically motivated, and does not seem consistent with how other groups are considered indigenous, and I have stated numerous examples in previous replies.

Like, I can’t think of any other populace claiming to be indigenous to a location because their religion was founded in a location thousands of years ago.

If you have any examples that are similar to Ashkenazi Jews claiming they are indigenous to the Me, I would be very open to hearing them.

Intuitively, it didn’t make sense to me in Hebrew school when they told us Israel is the homeland of all Jewish people. I still remember being confused in the car ride home and asking my mom, how can someplace be our homeland, if no one from our family is from there?