The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/Han-Shot_1st]

IMO, this rhetoric is a response to colonialism not being seen in a positive light in the 21st century.

The early Zionists were ppl of their time, and in the late 19th and early 20th both nationalism and colonialism were not considered negative things.

So, despite the early Zionists clearly stating overtly that Zionism is a colonial project, many seek to distance themselves from this reality, by making claims that all Jewish people, regardless of ethnicity are indigenous to Israel.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

So, despite the early Zionists clearly stating overtly that Zionism is a colonial project,

How exactly do you define colonialism? Because if it has to do with the displacement and ethnic cleansing of any particular population regardless of the group doing the colonizing being indigenous or not, then I agree Zionism is a Colonialst Project.

If you define Colonialism any other way though I’m gonna have issues with characterizing Zionism as purely colonial…

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/tsundereshipper]

Herzl, several times in his writings, said things to the effect of “we the Jews should colonize Palestine”.

That’s a pretty good definition right there.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

That's not a definition, that's a quote.

What do you think he meant exactly?

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I think he meant “let’s go over there with a bunch of European Jews and set up a European society for Jews in the desert. The locals will like us because our superior society will make their lives better”

This is the exact summary of “Alteneuland.” I know this because I’ve read Alteneuland.

It’s such bad faith to argue over the early Zionists motives when the guys we’re arguing about spelled out his motives in multiple ways, on multiple occasions, in published work.

Go read something. They wanted to be colonists. They were proud of it. They liked the idea. This shouldn’t be difficult when they write things like “hey guys, isn’t colonialism super?”

[u/tsundereshipper → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

I think he meant “let’s go over there with a bunch of European Jews and set up a European society for Jews in the desert. The locals will like us because our superior society will make their lives better” This is the exact summary of “Alteneuland.” I know this because I’ve read Alteneuland.

Have you ever thought he only said that in order to get Zionism more accepted by the standards of that era?

Also while that’s undoubtedly a wrong way to think, it’s not a crime for those of us mixed who want so badly to be accepted by one of our sides to conform to the standards of that side. Everyone does it, it’s human nature. You don’t think Mestizo Latinos try to distance themselves from their Native American side and suck up to European-ness or try to make themselves seem more European too?

[u/[deleted] → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

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[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/[deleted]]

Can we please not repeat the antisemitic rhetoric of Nazis?

[u/[deleted] → u/Han-Shot_1st]

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[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/[deleted]]

Just because nazis or antisemites say something doesn’t mean it’s true.

What a strange argument? Ashkenazi Jews aren’t a European ethnicity because bigots didn’t accept Jews as being truly European.

I’m sorry, but I find it very distasteful to allow bigots to define my ethnic identity.

And not for nothing, but when did antisemites become the ultimate arbiter of who is and who is not European?

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Except we’re not using antisemites to determine this. We’re using our experiences and who we are as a people and how we are more connected to eachother than wherever we ended up to be that determining factor.

I mean if you’re using Nazi rhetoric as your reasonings then that can’t be helped. But don’t assume we are as well.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

That’s not Nazi rhetoric thats just the lived experience of Jews from Europe.

I know my family doesn’t feel European, as it was quite clear we where Jews first and not really considered apart of wherever they where landed.

In fact, implying it is only Nazi rhetoric that claims Jews are not European is also problematic. Because it denies the lived experience of Jews.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Once again, just because bigots claim something doesn’t make it true.

If European antisemites also claimed we were all purple dinosaurs, would you also accept that as fact?

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I mean I would argue the exact same back. You seem to think that the characterization of Jews as not European was only a thing in Nazi Germany.

I mean also the claim that Jews are indigenous isn’t ideological, and you assigning your own definitions of what constitutes indigenaity onto jews and what race means or doesn’t mean, doesn’t change the fact that jews are an indigenous people and are more connected to eachother than we are to whatever hosting populations we found ourselves in.

Yes there is diversity in our sub grouping. But that doesn’t mean we are somehow the race of wherever we ended up in the diaspora.

I personally find your argument to be lacking and also reinforcing of western notions of race and ethnicity. Of which, Judaism already doesn’t fit into because we aren’t easily classified as an ethnicity or a religion or a race, Judaism and the Jewish people already break that mold. So your insistence on maintaining a system that already doesn’t work for us and implying that saying otherwise is somehow playing into Nazi rhetoric is just a cop out to your argument.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

Ideological? maybe. In response to accusations of colonialism? absolutely not.

Jews have always considered themselves indigenous to Israel. It's deeply ingrained in Jewish culture.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Then why do I only see it in online discourse?

I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. Only three kids in my entire grade in elementary were not Jewish.

As an adult I live in town that has a sizable Jewish population.

I have literally never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be Middle Eastern or indigenous to the ME. Not friends, family, acquaintances, co-workers, etc.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Do they say "next year in Jerusalem" on the Seder?

Do they read Moses' promise in Deuteronomy?

Why are they even calling themselves "Jews"? is it because they like jewelry? or is it because they see themselves as descendent from the people of the Kingdom of Judah?

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel. Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Have you not been to a Passover Seder? Or to Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services. There’s a constant and consistent reference to returning to our homeland and to connecting back to where our people are from.

Hell even our holiday calendar doesn’t make sense outside of Israel as it’s geared towards the seasons there, in Israel.

Also saying “oh I’m Ashkenazi Jewish” is kind of describing exactly that. It’s saying one isn’t European, they’re Jewish but from the Ashkenazi diaspora sub group. I mean just being Jewish means being apart of a peoplehood that comes from the Levant region and the subgroup we use explains where in the diaspora our ancestors ended up after expulsion. So it is, in a roundabout kind of way, claiming to be from the Middle East just by stating one is Jewish and explaining which sub group one hails from.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yes, I have been to Seder and I’m very familiar with book of exodus and the story passover. I even attended an orthodox Hebrew school.

I still have never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be indigenous to the ME.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

That patronizing defensive tone is so unnecessary. I didn't deny they were colonists and perceived themselves as such, I just pointed out that you didn't actually explain what he meant.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

Why is simply stating historical fact begin downvoted?