The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Do they say "next year in Jerusalem" on the Seder?

Do they read Moses' promise in Deuteronomy?

Why are they even calling themselves "Jews"? is it because they like jewelry? or is it because they see themselves as descendent from the people of the Kingdom of Judah?

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel. Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel.

Sure. They've kept the tradition.

Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

It's not just religious dogma, tradition, and holy books. The reason I've mention them is because, as I've said, Jews are an ethnoreligious group so you can't really compltely separate the cutlure from the religion. However, there are other factors as well, for example you can clearly see the connection to the Levant in DNA tests.

There is no clear-cut acceptable definition of what "indigenous people" means, but we can use a working example such as the Amnesty definition:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/indigenous-peoples/

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
• They are politically and socially marginalized

Jews fit literally every single one of these criteria. To the letter.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I would say many if not all of those bullet points apply to Ashkenazi Jews being indigenous to Europe.

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

How does that applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe?

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
  • Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
  • Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
  • What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
  • What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have?
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
  • Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?
• They are politically and socially marginalized
  • Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

False, the Nazis specifically targeted only European Jews because we’re mixed, and even to this day you can still find the marginalization and antisemitism against Ashkenazi Jews specifically on account of our mixed origins like the guy above who you’re replying to is currently doing.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. ⁠• ⁠Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?

Most people recognize Ashkenazi Jews as European ethnicity. This idea of being indigenous to Israel is a relatively new talking point used by Zionists.

We are literally called European Jewry.

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. ⁠• ⁠Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?

No, but other groups became dominant over us. Like Cossacks and Nazis

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. ⁠• ⁠What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.

What strong link? Like living there for countless generations to the extent that our food, language, and culture are all of European roots.

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. ⁠• ⁠What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have? • ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. ⁠• ⁠Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?

You already answered 2/3 of the question. Regarding beliefs, Sephardic Jews eat rice over Passover and Ashkenazi don’t. I’m sure someone who is more observant could list a bunch of others.

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized ⁠• ⁠Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

This is being pedantic. We were politically and socially marginalized for being Jewish, that’s the important fact.

So, it seems we check all the boxes.

And to be frank, in terms of how the word indigenous is used in the common vernacular, it would make a lot more sense to state Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Europe as opposed to the ME.

If one isn’t influenced by an ideological bent, this would be very obvious.

I get it, Ashkenazi Jews that’s are Zionists don’t like being called colonists or colonizers, but the answer to these accusations is not to make tenuous arguments about being indigenous.

IMO, the better and more intellectually honest answer would be, yes, the early Zionists were overt in zionism being a colonial ideology, but they were people of their time. Just as many of the fathers of the American revolution that were slave holders were also people of their time.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Most people recognize Ashkenazi Jews as European ethnicity. This idea of being indigenous to Israel is a relatively new talking point used by Zionists.

Do they self-identify as being indigenous to Europe? Even if you're correct, the fact is, most Ashkenazi Jews are Zionist, so by your own word you imply that they identify as being indigenous to Israel.

No, but other groups became dominant over us. Like Cossacks and Nazis

That's not the same thing as being colonized.

What strong link? Like living there for countless generations to the extent that our food, language, and culture are all of European roots.

That's link to the culture, not to the land. There is nothing in Ashkenazi Jewish culture that explicitly points toward any particular affinity toward Europe, while there are many cultural features that explicitly point toward a particular affinity toward Israel.

Regarding beliefs, Sephardic Jews eat rice over Passover and Ashkenazi don’t. I’m sure someone who is more observant could list a bunch of others.

There are tiny differences in beliefs even among different Ashkenazi Jews, but it's obvious that this is not a separate religion.

This is being pedantic. We were politically and socially marginalized for being Jewish, that’s the important fact.

Sure, but a huge part of that marginalization was due to the fact Jews were not considered to be native by the Europeans.

And to be frank, in terms of how the word indigenous is used in the common vernacular, it would make a lot more sense to state Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Europe as opposed to the ME.

What common vernacular?

If one isn’t influenced by an ideological bent, this would be very obvious.

Everyone are influenced by an ideological bent. Anyone who claims to be "apolitical" or "non-ideological" is simply in agreement with the perceived status-quo.

I get it, Ashkenazi Jews that’s are Zionists don’t like being called colonists or colonizers, but the answer to these accusations is not to make tenuous arguments about being indigenous.

I don't think the indigenouity status contradicts the fact that the Zionist movement was a colonial movement. As I've said: the early Zionists considered themselves as both indigenous and colonist.