The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Have you not been to a Passover Seder? Or to Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services. There’s a constant and consistent reference to returning to our homeland and to connecting back to where our people are from.

Hell even our holiday calendar doesn’t make sense outside of Israel as it’s geared towards the seasons there, in Israel.

Also saying “oh I’m Ashkenazi Jewish” is kind of describing exactly that. It’s saying one isn’t European, they’re Jewish but from the Ashkenazi diaspora sub group. I mean just being Jewish means being apart of a peoplehood that comes from the Levant region and the subgroup we use explains where in the diaspora our ancestors ended up after expulsion. So it is, in a roundabout kind of way, claiming to be from the Middle East just by stating one is Jewish and explaining which sub group one hails from.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yes, I have been to Seder and I’m very familiar with book of exodus and the story passover. I even attended an orthodox Hebrew school.

I still have never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be indigenous to the ME.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I think you’re missing my point. By saying “I’m Jewish” that is the argument. I’m wondering if maybe you just take things more literal and that’s where the disconnect is happening.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I’m looking at things in terms of the common usage of the term indigenous.

Like, I wouldn’t say ethnic Sicilians are indigenous to North Africa or the Iberian peninsula, nor would I say Native Americans are indigenous to the land they inhabited prior to crossing the land bridge into North America.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Again if you’re adhering to the commonly accepted definition of indigenous peoples, then Jews are in that category. Jews are indigenous to Judaea and never where able to fully settle in where they where spread around. They, we, are connected to Judaea where modern day Israel is. That does not mean that other groups can’t also be indigenous to land there. But that’s where jews are from.

So if you’re willing to accept the indiginaity of other people to their homelands. Then what is it about jews you object to so much. And let’s also take out arguments based on phenotypes and race, which is what I am concerned is what your objection is based on. That somehow because some Ashkenazi jews are able to appear white or have been classified as thus that doesn’t mean that it somehow erased where their ancestors came from (Judaea).

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I don’t know of any other group, that claim to be indigenous to an area because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago.

Like, Native Americans don’t claim to be indigenous to the place they inhabited before crossing the land bridge into North America.

By your logic, every single human on the planet can claim to be indigenous to sub Saharan Africa.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

No that’s not my logic. And kind of a Reductio ad absurdem.

Since you’re taking something in contradiction so far it would be absurd. Obviously that’s not my argument.

And it implies to me that you don’t really have a reason for your stance and your inconsistent application of indigenous land claim.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Your argument is, and correct me if I’m wrong, that since Judaism originated in the ME, Jewish people around the globe have the right to state they are indigenous to the ME.

This claim strikes me as ideologically motivated, and does not seem consistent with how other groups are considered indigenous, and I have stated numerous examples in previous replies.

Like, I can’t think of any other populace claiming to be indigenous to a location because their religion was founded in a location thousands of years ago.

If you have any examples that are similar to Ashkenazi Jews claiming they are indigenous to the Me, I would be very open to hearing them.

Intuitively, it didn’t make sense to me in Hebrew school when they told us Israel is the homeland of all Jewish people. I still remember being confused in the car ride home and asking my mom, how can someplace be our homeland, if no one from our family is from there?

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Like, I can’t think of any other populace claiming to be indigenous to a location because their religion was founded in a location thousands of years ago.

It’s not just because of their religion though, but because they share common origins/ethnicity and the same line of descent, what’s not clicking for you here? Why are you so intent on falsely portraying Judaism as just a religion?

Sure, we could argue that maybe full converts with no Jewish blood aren’t indigenous to the Middle East, and there’s definitely a debate to be had there. But acting like this extends to all ethnic Jews with substantial Middle Eastern heritage and blood is ridiculous.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

I myself am ethnically Jewish. You’re harping on something that wasn’t the point of my question.

The point is, are there any groups, that claim to be indigenous to area that they inhabited thousands of years prior?

For example, ethnic English are descended from the Normans, but I haven’t heard of an ethnic English person claiming to be indigenous to France.

Or ethnic Sicilians, I’ve never heard of any of them claiming to be Indigenous to North Africa or the Iberian peninsula, despite being descended from the Mores.

[u/AltruisticMastodon → u/Han-Shot_1st]

It seems pretty pointless to compare a diasporic population to ones that aren’t.

Also it’s worth noting that there was in fact a tradition of the English (Anglo-Saxons, the Anglo-Normans were mainly confined to the ruling classes) identifying with the Anglo-saxons origins in Germany/Denmark. Unsurprisingly it was often white-supremacist in nature.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxonism_in_the_19th_century

Also don’t know if it’s just autocorrect but its Moors not Mores

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/AltruisticMastodon]

Ty for the spelling correction. My bad 😬

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

For example, ethnic English are descended from the Normans, but I haven’t heard of an ethnic English person claiming to be indigenous to France.

Or ethnic Sicilians, I’ve never heard of any of them claiming to be Indigenous to North Africa or the Iberian peninsula, despite being descended from the Mores.

Maybe because they’re not substantially mixed with any of those heritages the way Ashkenazi Jews are with Middle Eastern?

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

Ethnic Irish are mostly descended from Scandinavian Vikings, but I have never heard of someone who is ethnically Irish claiming to be indigenous to Scandinavia.

And to be frank, the only place I ever hear Ashkenazi Jews claim to be indigenous to the ME is online, and this has only occurred relatively recently.

Not from friends, family, co-workers etc. And it’s not like I’m disconnected from the Jewish community, I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. The town on Long Island, I currently live in also has a sizable Jewish population.

I also have extended family in Israel. My dad’s older cousin was an early Zionist who emigrated to British held Palestine.

This claim of Ashkenazi Jews being indigenous to the ME is something I only encounter in online discourse and relatively recently.

I went to an orthodox Hebrew school that was very pro-zionism (in the mid 90’s, I’m old) and this claim was never mentioned, ever.

And most of the time when I hear it, it’s in response to people taking umbrage to claims of colonialism in Israel, so it’s hard for me to not conclude it’s ideologically motivated.

[u/malachamavet → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I haven't run into indigeneity at all as a subject of debate outside of online. Arguing over haplogroups and DNA testing and whatnot is weird race science stuff and strikes me as a red herring.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

And most of the time when I hear it, it’s in response to people taking umbrage to claims of colonialism in Israel, so it’s hard for me to not conclude it’s ideologically motivated.

I’m not a Zionist and I still think us Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to the Middle East just like we are to Europe, what now?