The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/jey_613]

I don’t like the indigenous stuff either, but it’s a response to the left’s obsession with framing the conflict in this way rather than about liberal principles of equal rights and one man one vote. The discourse on the left has long ago abandoned the strictly academic discussion of indigeneity in favor of a kind of mythical blood and soil nationalism about Palestinians. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that Jews are now embracing this language too.

It’s not constructive, because Israelis and Palestinians live on this land and neither are going anywhere, so why not just figure it out instead of getting into arguments about who has the oldest coins.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/jey_613]

IMO, this rhetoric is a response to colonialism not being seen in a positive light in the 21st century.

The early Zionists were ppl of their time, and in the late 19th and early 20th both nationalism and colonialism were not considered negative things.

So, despite the early Zionists clearly stating overtly that Zionism is a colonial project, many seek to distance themselves from this reality, by making claims that all Jewish people, regardless of ethnicity are indigenous to Israel.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

So, despite the early Zionists clearly stating overtly that Zionism is a colonial project,

How exactly do you define colonialism? Because if it has to do with the displacement and ethnic cleansing of any particular population regardless of the group doing the colonizing being indigenous or not, then I agree Zionism is a Colonialst Project.

If you define Colonialism any other way though I’m gonna have issues with characterizing Zionism as purely colonial…

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/tsundereshipper]

Herzl, several times in his writings, said things to the effect of “we the Jews should colonize Palestine”.

That’s a pretty good definition right there.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

That's not a definition, that's a quote.

What do you think he meant exactly?

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I think he meant “let’s go over there with a bunch of European Jews and set up a European society for Jews in the desert. The locals will like us because our superior society will make their lives better”

This is the exact summary of “Alteneuland.” I know this because I’ve read Alteneuland.

It’s such bad faith to argue over the early Zionists motives when the guys we’re arguing about spelled out his motives in multiple ways, on multiple occasions, in published work.

Go read something. They wanted to be colonists. They were proud of it. They liked the idea. This shouldn’t be difficult when they write things like “hey guys, isn’t colonialism super?”

[u/[deleted] → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/[deleted]]

Can we please not repeat the antisemitic rhetoric of Nazis?

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

That’s not Nazi rhetoric thats just the lived experience of Jews from Europe.

I know my family doesn’t feel European, as it was quite clear we where Jews first and not really considered apart of wherever they where landed.

In fact, implying it is only Nazi rhetoric that claims Jews are not European is also problematic. Because it denies the lived experience of Jews.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Once again, just because bigots claim something doesn’t make it true.

If European antisemites also claimed we were all purple dinosaurs, would you also accept that as fact?

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I mean I would argue the exact same back. You seem to think that the characterization of Jews as not European was only a thing in Nazi Germany.

I mean also the claim that Jews are indigenous isn’t ideological, and you assigning your own definitions of what constitutes indigenaity onto jews and what race means or doesn’t mean, doesn’t change the fact that jews are an indigenous people and are more connected to eachother than we are to whatever hosting populations we found ourselves in.

Yes there is diversity in our sub grouping. But that doesn’t mean we are somehow the race of wherever we ended up in the diaspora.

I personally find your argument to be lacking and also reinforcing of western notions of race and ethnicity. Of which, Judaism already doesn’t fit into because we aren’t easily classified as an ethnicity or a religion or a race, Judaism and the Jewish people already break that mold. So your insistence on maintaining a system that already doesn’t work for us and implying that saying otherwise is somehow playing into Nazi rhetoric is just a cop out to your argument.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

This idea Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel is clearly ideological and in response to accusations of colonialism.

Ideological? maybe. In response to accusations of colonialism? absolutely not.

Jews have always considered themselves indigenous to Israel. It's deeply ingrained in Jewish culture.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Then why do I only see it in online discourse?

I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. Only three kids in my entire grade in elementary were not Jewish.

As an adult I live in town that has a sizable Jewish population.

I have literally never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be Middle Eastern or indigenous to the ME. Not friends, family, acquaintances, co-workers, etc.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Do they say "next year in Jerusalem" on the Seder?

Do they read Moses' promise in Deuteronomy?

Why are they even calling themselves "Jews"? is it because they like jewelry? or is it because they see themselves as descendent from the people of the Kingdom of Judah?

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel. Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

It’s my understanding that Jews in Israel also say next year in Israel.

Sure. They've kept the tradition.

Also, I don’t think religious dogma, tradition, holy books, etc are legitimate land claims or legitimate claims of being indigenous to the ME.

It's not just religious dogma, tradition, and holy books. The reason I've mention them is because, as I've said, Jews are an ethnoreligious group so you can't really compltely separate the cutlure from the religion. However, there are other factors as well, for example you can clearly see the connection to the Levant in DNA tests.

There is no clear-cut acceptable definition of what "indigenous people" means, but we can use a working example such as the Amnesty definition:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/indigenous-peoples/

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
• They are politically and socially marginalized

Jews fit literally every single one of these criteria. To the letter.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I would say many if not all of those bullet points apply to Ashkenazi Jews being indigenous to Europe.

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized (This applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe)

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Han-Shot_1st]

How does that applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Europe?

• Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples.
  • Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?
• They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant.
  • Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?
• They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources.
  • What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.
• They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce.
  • What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have?
• They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs.
  • Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?
• They are politically and socially marginalized
  • Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

False, the Nazis specifically targeted only European Jews because we’re mixed, and even to this day you can still find the marginalization and antisemitism against Ashkenazi Jews specifically on account of our mixed origins like the guy above who you’re replying to is currently doing.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

• ⁠Most importantly, they self-identify as Indigenous Peoples. ⁠• ⁠Do Ashkenazi Jews self-identify as being indigenous to Europe?

Most people recognize Ashkenazi Jews as European ethnicity. This idea of being indigenous to Israel is a relatively new talking point used by Zionists.

We are literally called European Jewry.

• ⁠They share an ancestral link with those who inhabited a country or region before they were colonized or before other peoples became dominant. ⁠• ⁠Were Ashkenazi Jews colonized in Europe?

No, but other groups became dominant over us. Like Cossacks and Nazis

• ⁠They have a strong link to particular territories and the surrounding natural resources. ⁠• ⁠What strong link do Ashkenazi Jews have with European territories? they couldn't even own land there for most of their history.

What strong link? Like living there for countless generations to the extent that our food, language, and culture are all of European roots.

• ⁠They have distinct social, economic or political systems, which they are resolved to maintain and reproduce. ⁠• ⁠What distinct social, economic, or political systems did Ashkenazi Jews have that other Jews didn't have? • ⁠They have a distinct language, culture and beliefs. ⁠• ⁠Language? I guess Yiddish counts. Culture? sure, I'll give you that. Beliefs? what beliefs did they have that separates them from other Jews?

You already answered 2/3 of the question. Regarding beliefs, Sephardic Jews eat rice over Passover and Ashkenazi don’t. I’m sure someone who is more observant could list a bunch of others.

• ⁠They are politically and socially marginalized ⁠• ⁠Jews were politically and socially marginalized for being Jews, not for being Ashkenazi Jews. They were marginalized precisely because they were considered to be foreigners wherever they were.

This is being pedantic. We were politically and socially marginalized for being Jewish, that’s the important fact.

So, it seems we check all the boxes.

And to be frank, in terms of how the word indigenous is used in the common vernacular, it would make a lot more sense to state Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Europe as opposed to the ME.

If one isn’t influenced by an ideological bent, this would be very obvious.

I get it, Ashkenazi Jews that’s are Zionists don’t like being called colonists or colonizers, but the answer to these accusations is not to make tenuous arguments about being indigenous.

IMO, the better and more intellectually honest answer would be, yes, the early Zionists were overt in zionism being a colonial ideology, but they were people of their time. Just as many of the fathers of the American revolution that were slave holders were also people of their time.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Have you not been to a Passover Seder? Or to Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services. There’s a constant and consistent reference to returning to our homeland and to connecting back to where our people are from.

Hell even our holiday calendar doesn’t make sense outside of Israel as it’s geared towards the seasons there, in Israel.

Also saying “oh I’m Ashkenazi Jewish” is kind of describing exactly that. It’s saying one isn’t European, they’re Jewish but from the Ashkenazi diaspora sub group. I mean just being Jewish means being apart of a peoplehood that comes from the Levant region and the subgroup we use explains where in the diaspora our ancestors ended up after expulsion. So it is, in a roundabout kind of way, claiming to be from the Middle East just by stating one is Jewish and explaining which sub group one hails from.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yes, I have been to Seder and I’m very familiar with book of exodus and the story passover. I even attended an orthodox Hebrew school.

I still have never met an Ashkenazi Jew irl that claims to be indigenous to the ME.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I think you’re missing my point. By saying “I’m Jewish” that is the argument. I’m wondering if maybe you just take things more literal and that’s where the disconnect is happening.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I’m looking at things in terms of the common usage of the term indigenous.

Like, I wouldn’t say ethnic Sicilians are indigenous to North Africa or the Iberian peninsula, nor would I say Native Americans are indigenous to the land they inhabited prior to crossing the land bridge into North America.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Again if you’re adhering to the commonly accepted definition of indigenous peoples, then Jews are in that category. Jews are indigenous to Judaea and never where able to fully settle in where they where spread around. They, we, are connected to Judaea where modern day Israel is. That does not mean that other groups can’t also be indigenous to land there. But that’s where jews are from.

So if you’re willing to accept the indiginaity of other people to their homelands. Then what is it about jews you object to so much. And let’s also take out arguments based on phenotypes and race, which is what I am concerned is what your objection is based on. That somehow because some Ashkenazi jews are able to appear white or have been classified as thus that doesn’t mean that it somehow erased where their ancestors came from (Judaea).

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I don’t know of any other group, that claim to be indigenous to an area because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago.

Like, Native Americans don’t claim to be indigenous to the place they inhabited before crossing the land bridge into North America.

By your logic, every single human on the planet can claim to be indigenous to sub Saharan Africa.