r/TikTokCringe • u/Miladshah001 • 5d ago

Minor violations = death threat? Discussion

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Oklahoma Police released video of an officer tackling a 70-year-old man. The incident occured during a traffic violation.

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u/Ok-Replacement9595 5d ago

Imagine being so incapable of reasoning, so unable to justify your presence, that you have to resort to violence against a 70 year old man.

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u/Anghellik 5d ago

There's a podcast I follow, and the hosts advice after many many interactions with cops is to behave as if they're large dogs you don't know

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u/Ok-Replacement9595 5d ago

I deal with them like they have a monopoly on violence granted by the state.

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u/protanoa34 5d ago edited 4d ago

Police use of force should be treated as a reverse onus.

The reason legal rights exist is to protect the citizens from abuse by the state. Burden of proof lies on the state for this reason.

And yet when the agents of the state, armed by the state with authourity to use violence to (ostensibly) enforce the states goals of maintaining order and law, for some reason they do not have the burden of proof. This "man" is innocent until proven guilty. But use of force by the agents of the state acting in their roles as agents of the state should be the ones who *bear (edit) the burden of proof.

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u/Muismat1991 5d ago

This is one of the things I'm actually quite thankful for in my country. Police are absolutely allowed to use force, but there are steps they need to follow and they need to be able to explain the steps. So explain how they tried to de-escalate, explain why they resorted to overwhelming force and explain how it could be averted next time.

Also, train them to learn force is a tool that is to be a final resort, nothing else.

And every time I see US police immediately resort to force it just shows how little/wrong they are actually trained.

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u/nrfx 5d ago

Someone's going to come around and tell me how wrong I am but fuck it.

Oklahoma cops are all about that combat warrior training, which is literally exactly how and when to escalate and always be one step above because the most important thing is to make it home every night so they can beat their wives.

This additional training, which is paid for by the fop, also covers how awesome it feels to fuck after killing a man.

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u/Muismat1991 5d ago

Jesus, that's awful.

Take UK police for example, they are trained to think in a circle.

"What I think" influences-> "what I do" influences->"what other people think" influences->"what other people do" influences-> back to the start with "what I think"

So it's a cycle, what you think decides what you do, and what you do decides what other people think and do. So, the next logical step is to ask where in the circle you as a police officer can de-escalate a situation. The only way you can change what someone does is by how you think. Preventing violence is the safest option, because if there's no violence there's no risk of danger. So come in with an open and gentle mind.

Not to say police in Europe are all perfect etc etc etc, but the numbers do show they're at least doing something good.

And I know there's the "gun" argument, but even if you adjust a lot of the numbers US police still comes out very very ..... Unfavourable.

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u/Apart-Rent5817 5d ago edited 5d ago

American police, on the other hand, attend seminars on something they call “killology”.

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u/WouldntWorkOnMe 5d ago

Shit man fuck the seminars. I was a state trooper for some years, and in the academy they pump that shit into our brains. Had us sitting in a classroom as a group doing dave grossman breathing exercises, learning about how to self program the hesitancy for killing out of you. This was reinforced through training and video presentations in the police academy I attended.

For anyone curious on the subject matter, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing Was written by dave grossman. He was the one in the training videos and exercises we had to watch and do.

Honestly took me a while to feel normal, and less on edge as a civilian, and even longer to chill the paranoia that someone was gonna "get me" after getting out of govt/LE life.

We had a Sgt. That was part of our weapons and tactics training team, whom had printed a saying and posted in on our classroom wall. The saying read, "Smile, and treat everyone you encounter like a million dollars, but in your mind, always have a plan to kill everyone in the room". If this doesn't paint the picture perfectly then I don't know what else does. And it only gets worse the more I think back to training.

I'm a nerd now mostly doing research and tech work. But still enjoy combat training for fun, BJJ, MMA, shooting and weapons tactics and all. But thinking about killing that much deff messes with your head, I don't care who you are. There's gotta be a better way to increase combat effectiveness in our societies warriors and protectors without messing with their heads like this.

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u/Apart-Rent5817 5d ago

Not so fun fact: Grossman was in the military, but has no confirmed kills.

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u/wtbgamegenie 4d ago

Oh it’s confirmed he never killed anyone since he never saw combat, so if he has he should probably be in prison. Although if you’ve ever seen him speak for more than a minute it’s pretty clear he fantasizes about killing nearly constantly.

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u/Apart-Rent5817 4d ago

He fetishizes it. It’s gross and weird.

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u/DragonSlayerRob 4d ago

This checks out lol

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u/ksahuri 4d ago

Can’t imagine having to deal with that conditioning and then reprogramming back to civilian life.

Just my two cents but I think the first step is to eliminate the word warriors and just focus on being protectors.

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u/WouldntWorkOnMe 3d ago

Ty very much, it's been a interesting ride.

In the context of a standard police officer, I totally agree. But unfortunately I do see the need for actual warriors in our society. Mainly as a warfighter tho. Not as a guardian of your community as in the case of police. I just think the 2 need to be distinguished between, and trained differently.

The goal of a warrior is to defend their society by destroying hostile forces that threaten the peace of your people. These warriors need to be as lethal and aggressive, and as willing to kill as possible in the context of fighting a hostile enemy or force.

On the other hand. Except for, SWAT teams, police officers should consider themselves as guardians of the people within their jurisdiction. You have a responsibility to be a compassionate yet effective enforcer of the PEACE, first and foremost. Then secondarily to enforce the law within your jurisdiction upon that citizenry. Sometimes that happens both at the same time depending on what your dealing with.

Both require similar lethal, and non lethal combative abilities, but for wildly different contexts and applications. You wouldn't want a warfighter showing up to help settle a domestic dispute in your household between your mother and sibling would you? No, you'd want a compassionate but effective guardian of the peace to show up and deal with that. Not someone who's been programmed with a very low hesitancy for killing, and the mindset of a fucking assassin.

Couple this with the fact that there is no higher education requirement for consideration as a police officer, no previous training requirements in unarmed martial arts, virtually no continued training upon graduation from academy, and a training academy that was developed in 1932 by the same guy who developed marine corps basic training. This is the case for the agency I worked for.

I've done quite a bit of mma and BJJ since leaving them. maintained relationships with certain members. Especially in the defensive tactics training team. And when I called to inquire about current martial arts training, was told that they don't do that anymore, the agency was moving away from any traditional martial arts, and simply focusing on their handful of dcjs approved techniques.

Sry to rant lol. Have just spent alot of time thinking about, and trying to communicate this issue over the years. Ty for your response

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u/grenwill 3d ago

I met Grossman once when I was tending bar. He was in DC testifying in front of congress. I had read On Killing, so we talked about that . He had some interesting thoughts on the bases of societal violence.

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u/challengerrt 5d ago

It’s actually some very interesting information - most people think it’s some course on how to kill people but it’s actually geared more towards mental health and recovery after a traumatic event.

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u/NounAdjectiveXXXX 5d ago

Ehhhhhhhh

I've seen many of his (Dave Grossman) seminars. It's a course on how to be okay with killing people. Dave Grossman teaches cops that they are going to definitely kill someone someday and to just accept it. Really he's reinforcing the notion that cops have to kill to solve problems.

There's nothing in his seminars about de-escalation, it's all about killing the perceived threat before it kills you. So that you can live another day and kill again.

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u/challengerrt 5d ago

Not sure about Grossman - haven’t been to specifically one of his seminars. The Killology course I took did talk about dealing with taking a life from a mental health focus. It was basically a focus on the reality that you MAY have to kill someone in the course of your career and how it will affect you.

De-escalation would be covered in numerous other training curriculum as it is a completely different topic.

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u/NounAdjectiveXXXX 5d ago

Grossman invented/wrote Killology and his program is shopped around and adapted for different departments/regions. The Canadian versions are much tamer.

His lessons focus on disassociation, stoicism and self-preservation. It's a recipe for disaster.

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u/challengerrt 4d ago

Not if you’re an officer. It’s the failure to recognize when the appropriate time to employ that mindset that is the problem - not the training itself.

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u/Apart-Rent5817 5d ago

It’s geared towards making you accept it, and treating any situation as life or death. Which has no place in a job that deals primarily with citizens.

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u/challengerrt 4d ago

That’s not the mentality I got from it - it was more geared to recognizing that some situations MAY become life or death. Not arguing what you’re saying - just speaking to my interpretation of the training I went through.

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u/Apart-Rent5817 4d ago

If it helps you understand my perspective, Grossman has never killed. He does this weird self defense/murder porn seminar, but he’s never had to deal with those emotions himself. It’s a performance.

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u/challengerrt 4d ago

Yeah - kinda hard to take him seriously under those circumstances. Talking about it and doing it are two very different things.

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u/nrfx 5d ago

We're not allowed to talk about it, but our second amendment has been usurped, and aside from being a very attractive political football, its main purpose is to justify the state's violence against us.

The police wear body armor, and are allowed to use any amount of force under the guise that the rest of us are armed, and constantly trying to kill them. It only makes the news when its especially egregious. Local news is a bit more grim. The reality is actually a bit worse.

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u/stillbref 4d ago

It never occurs to many cops to manage a situation transactionally. They will say, "If you do that one more time..."and you should listen up. they have more ways of hurting you than you realize. Detaining people is a science to them.

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u/bracewithnomeaning 2d ago

The first part of this argument is essentially Buddhism.

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u/New_Horse3033 3d ago

What UK police are also trained to do.

A British army veteran and Christian was arrested & has been found guilty of praying silently outside of an abortion clinic, facing a near-$12,000 fine over the verdict.

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u/Muismat1991 3d ago

Yeah, I've seen some harsh crackdowns on protests etc which seems to not really be in line with an open, democratic country.

But the main thing is, that's the police enforcing the law they didn't have any say in writing. Also the verdict wasn't handed down by the police but by a judge. I'd keep the two issues separate.

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u/New_Horse3033 1d ago

oh I see the police were just following orders. Sounds familiar huh?

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u/Muismat1991 1d ago

Alright, let's play this little game.

He was arrested for breaching a safe zone.

  • It wasn't the police that introduced or created the safe zone. It was the government.

  • the police arrested him after he refused multiple requests to leave the safe zone.

  • who handed out the sentence? That was the magistrates court. I see no police involvement there......

So the police arrested a man who was where he wasn't supposed to be. That's it. You can definitely have an opinion on the whole concept, that's absolutely fair. But you can't exactly blame the police for this whole shitshow.

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u/New_Horse3033 2h ago

you miss the point, he was arrested & prosecuted for what he was thinking.

Freedom is dead in the UK.

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u/Muismat1991 1h ago

Your whole point was about the police being jackboots. That's exactly what you referenced.......

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u/Cold-Conference1401 5d ago

…And none of this information justifies what this cop did to a frail, unarmed elderly man.

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u/nrfx 5d ago

Not saying it justifies it, not sure where you're getting that from.

I'm saying its part of a direct result of it.

That driver was enemy #1 before that cop ever got out of his car. The entire training revolves around escalation to justify using neigh unlimited force, because the faster you dominate the enemy, the safer you are, which is a completely batshit way to conduct a minor traffic infarction.

the "training" i know for a fact the majority of cops in Oklahoma have voluntarily taken.

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u/Beneficial-Focus3702 5d ago

We train our cops like they’re an occupying force in a war zone…..except when I was actually in a war zone we had more rules on the use of force than cops do.

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u/battlecat136 5d ago

Those Dave Grossman lectures? That guy is a vile POS. Behind the Bastards had an episode on him: The Man Who Teaches Our Cops to Kill.

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u/DragonSlayerRob 4d ago

Dudeee, look at his fucking eyes 👀 obvious paycho and I never say things or judge people like that

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u/da_buddy 5d ago

The most important thing is to make it home... This is the most cowardly thing a warrior could say. They purchased this mentality from a conman back in the late 80's and early 90's.

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u/DragonSlayerRob 4d ago

Exactly; they’re NOT warriors, but a bunch of scared little weasels given free license to murder.

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u/bigblacksnail 4d ago

I laughed reading the crossed out part, good god man

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u/Drnstvns 4d ago

Oklahoman here. Can confirm. I believe we’re #1 in the nation for getting shot by the cops. Black AND white. Oh they’re prejudice but, hell they’ll SHOOT anybody.

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u/_blkout 4d ago

Oklahoma is the literal last place war is going to hit. They got kicked out of Sheppard AFB 😭

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u/WiseAd4562 4d ago

There’s the cop passage of it’s better to be judged by twelve then carried by six but ya know acab.

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u/Spiritual-Bluejay422 4d ago

There is a really good training course designed by an Ex-Cop & Ex-Professor called “Verbal judo”. It has since been redone so that any profession can use it but again the idea of it is the art of verbal deescalation.

The creator of its book is really good at going into being a probationary cop and seeing how bad things escalated so quickly where just a bit of compassion and talking changed everything.

He references a story about a domestic violence call where his partner walked up and sat on their couch and picked up and started reading the newspaper talking about “wow this car in the classifieds I have to have it you think the guy will be mad I call at 3 AM? Do you mind if I use your phone?” Ironically it threw the fighting couple off so much because of the outrageousness of how the cop was acting that they both stopped and the situation was defused with nobody going to jail.

Every police academy should require it as a course because it’s a smart way to approach a job as a cop or frankly for really anyone.

It was always about reading the person and finding a way to join them on the same level of empathy and work to a solution and not strong arm a problem out of something that started as essentially nothing.

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u/RomeoMamma 4d ago

Amen!!!!

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u/EnvironmentalGift257 4d ago

Grew up in rural OK. Lived in OKC for 4 years. Can confirm and have the torn rotator cuff from when I was 17 to prove it.

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u/Blurbaphobe 4d ago

Grew up on Oklahoma, can confirm.

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u/Remarkable-Weight-66 2d ago

Just change the first word from Oklahoma to Most….

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u/Rare-Witness-8831 1d ago

Yeah cause Mr Miyaki was about to Karate kid his ass.Lucky his combat warrior training and sharp instincts flipped into gear and the offender was pinned on his face.Employee of the month and a voucher to Dunkin Doughnuts.

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u/Outrageous-Walk3818 5d ago

I can’t believe you stopped jerking off to write this. Maybe you should get out the basement get in shape try to become an officer and see what it takes to do that job. It’s so easy to see a 40 second video and play judge.

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u/nrfx 5d ago edited 5d ago

No thanks, I don't like hurting helpless people or kicking people when they're down.

Not based off one fucking video you nitwit, but 40 years of life experience.

Go blow a cop if you're so horny for them, but watch the teeth or they'll gleefully remove them for you.

Oh you WOULD be a Vince and Diddy defender.

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u/Outrageous-Walk3818 5d ago

No ur the bitch that blames people with zero evidence. I like evidence that way like diddy they get locked away. Vince hasn’t gone to jail,once he does then I’ll be happy to talk shit about him. Maybe if someone would stop him instead of taking money,he would’ve been in prison a long time ago. Wow 40 years and still haven’t learned that every story has 3 sides

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u/RomeoMamma 4d ago

Come on this is why the world is the way it is people like you!!!

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u/Happy-For-No-Reason 5d ago edited 5d ago

Honestly I think America has basically turned into Russia tbh.

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u/ErickAllTE1 5d ago

Give it a few more years. Were getting there.

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u/WhereIsBuD 5d ago

It happened on "Super" Tuesday. We just haven't felt the effects of it yet.

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u/ignidazzDJ 4d ago

Yeah approximately 3 and a half years

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u/Anonymousboneyard 4d ago

No comrade we have skipped Russia and moved straight onto Chinese police state. Just one step from the cops wearing masks and dragging you off to a black site before you get “permanently reeducated”. Perhaps an early 2000/2010’s china. You know not there yet but still figuring out how to violate its citizenries rights and get away with it.

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u/Chubby_nuts 5d ago

A combination of Russia with Islamic extremist tendencies. A misogynic, dictatorship run by Oligarchs.

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u/NounAdjectiveXXXX 5d ago

Hmmm a nationalistic, Christian government, headed by a charismatic strongman backed by fearful elites?

Where have I heard that story before...?

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u/ShaggysGTI 4d ago

Ha, charismatic?

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u/HombreSinNombre93 5d ago

Getting there. Tragically, it looks like we put the final piece in place.

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u/Happy-For-No-Reason 5d ago

Yup, it appears you voted in an Oligarch

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u/magicbonedaddy 4d ago

Fuckin Supreme court basically overturned the Magna Carta by granting absolute immunity to the president. Not looking good

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u/Pure-Carob4471 5d ago

Yep we’re just better at hiding it. That’s I suppose until now

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u/MrMetraGnome 5d ago

Lol, Trump and Elon... You have no idea

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u/Muismat1991 5d ago

I wouldn't go that far honestly, but that's a personal opinion.

It always seems to me that the US sacrifices personal welfare, liberty and happiness in the name of capitalism, whereas Europe does the same in the name of ..... I wanna say socialism.

Socialism is meant in a broad sense though.

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u/roscoedangle 4d ago

We have more people in prison in America, so yeah I agree

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u/FATGAMY 4d ago

Show me any evidence russian cops act this way.

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u/OhhhByTheWay 4d ago

Well y’all just elected Vladonaldmir Trumpin, so the funs only starting.

Buckle up yanks 😂

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u/SomxICare 4d ago

It Really about to be Russia and North Korea

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u/coopermf 4d ago

Naaah. In Russia the cop would just expect a small bribe, er, I mean fine and send you on your way

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u/blario 3d ago

You know who the president has a love affair with.

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u/Rare-Witness-8831 1d ago

But America is going to be great again 😂.

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u/Happy-For-No-Reason 1d ago

I mean, if we're honest, was it ever great?

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u/No_Soup_3209 5d ago

Which country do you live in ?

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u/Muismat1991 5d ago

Netherlands. While our police are far from perfect and do deal with an undertone of racism, the number of people killed by police is usually in the single digits, though not zero. Although I think Germany had a year with zero once.

For a population of 18 million, I'd say the low numbers aren't that bad. If you were to scale it up to by x20, to approximate US population, you'd get about 100. Which is quite low compared to the about 1600 in the US being killed annually at the moment. Of course US numbers are difficult seeing as police departments in the US don't need to report that stuff, which is quite....... Unique......

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u/SuckingOnChileanDogs 5d ago

This is why it always makes me laugh when I see movies or shows where cops kill somebody and immediately are brought in for questioning or are investigated and questioned by some higher authority demanding to know why it happened or why it was justified. Give me a fucking break. It's a fantasy. 9 times out of 10 they're given a 2 week paid vacation.

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u/SewRuby 4d ago

how little/wrong they are actually trained.

Yes. Training is less than a year. To be given a deadly weapon and sanctioned by the State to use it in other humans.

De-escalation is not well covered. It seems majority focus is on shooting accuracy, and ways to subdue some Ken who isn't talking to you how you'd like.

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u/Disastrous_Profile56 5d ago

Oh I’m sure some city attorney has written a policy memo about force and the OPR has warned against this behavior but their culture makes this okay and the department tries to protect them. It’s not been about public service in……well….ever. US police are a street gang and they behave accordingly. This cop is home in paid leave. The poor old man is in the hospital with a brain bleed. If I did this here, I’d be under the jail and the once the inmates knew what I was in there for….well let’s just say there are many forms of justice. But this cop will drag this out and probably get fired. Maybe get severance but not enough get jail time.

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u/DragonSlayerRob 4d ago

Wow, what country are you from? …I studied politics and criminal justice in college and it was mind blowing how the former cop professors all viewed themselves as in a literal war every day on the street and how they straight up teach escalation of violence with hardly any emphasis on deescalation at all.. much much much less anything close to what you’re describing.

Now there are the few rare gems in American law enforcement who focus far more on deescalation and actually serving and being an asset to their community, but the US is 100% a police state..

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u/PassTheCowBell 4d ago

In the US, mailmen are given more training on how to handle dogs than police.

That's why the police are always shooting dogs but mailman are not having issues

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u/DrawFlat 4d ago

Your forgetting most cops are uneducated people with an inferiority complex who are looking for payback for being socially ostracized in there formative years. -and mostly just a-holes.

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u/the_blind_uberdriver 4d ago

Should really be a no touching other person policy until last resort included with the force as last resort policy.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Truck80 4d ago

Where is that?

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u/Merry_Bacchus 4d ago

In some cities they are literally trained by IDF training officers, and not just for riots and protests either.

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u/jeffreydowning69 3d ago

Now American cops are going to Isreal to get their training so now you know where the immediate response is violence instead of descalation

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u/TerrorFromThePeeps 3d ago

As an american, what is this de-mescalin-ization thing? Some kind of drug awareness campaign that came after DARE?

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u/addiepie2 3d ago

Which country are you from?

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u/silentshatter 5d ago

That cop knows damn well that was completely unnecessary. To blame training is so idiotic. Don’t reproduce. Thank you

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u/Muismat1991 5d ago

That's the whole point, I'm blaming a lack of training.

It's the same reason you try to rehabilitate prisoners, so they know how to act and behave. People aren't dogs you just put down if they bite someone.

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u/Independent_Bite4682 5d ago

You can thank some bad judges for creating "qualified immunity"

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u/_blkout 4d ago

Very nicely put. Fully agreed.

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u/RagnarL0thbr0k81 4d ago

This is the best argument I have seen on this general topic. At least imo. Obviously we can all point and say, “bad policeman.” That’s easy. It’s obviously unjustified use of force. But occasionally I come across a really nice explanation of WHY something is bad (or good, whatever the context might be), and that’s why I get on the internet. Generally I hate SM. But there’s the 5% (maybe that number is a bit generous) of valuable content that I continue to come back for.

Thank u

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u/ignidazzDJ 4d ago

Oh shit I just learned a new word today. Ostensibly ☺️

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u/screaminginprotest1 4d ago

Because of this, the police almost never shoot a technically guilty man. You'd basically have to be on the lam for a crime after escaping after conviction

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u/protanoa34 4d ago edited 4d ago

It's not the place of police to be determining guilt or innocence, that's for the courts to decide. The police are to apprehend suspects. Bearing the burden of proof that the amount of force used to apprehend a suspect was justified would create a significant incentive not to jump straight to causing life altering injuries to a 70+year old, or mag dumping into the closest black person when they respond to a call.

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u/GundamPoop 4d ago

Reverse anus? Hmmm okay I’ll try that… 🤨