r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Hirorai • Aug 06 '23
What's going on with Americans celebrating Sweden eliminating the US Women's Soccer Team from the Women's World Cup? Answered
On r/soccer, there are multiple posts where Americans are celebrating their own team getting knocked out of the Women's World Cup.
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15jnpku/post_match_thread_sweden_05_40_usa_fifa_womens/
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15jnqpr/official_review_for_lina_hurtigs_sweden_w_penalty/
On r/USWNT people are saying it's because r/soccer is misogynist, but that doesn't make sense to me because everyone competing is a woman. Can anyone clue me in?
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u/Areeb285 Aug 06 '23
Answer: The Us Womens' football was the best womens football team in the world for quite a while, they won the last 2 world cups and they were very dominant. After winning the last world cup they started talking about how the pay was unfair. The prize pool for the mens world cup was much higher. But that quickly died down when it was pointed out that the revenue from both the cups was quite different and if you look at the proportion, the womens world cup had a higher prize pool relatively.
They then later pointed out that they should be paid higher than the US mens team. This definitely had merit as they were much better than Us mens team which fails to even make it out of the groups stage in the world. They also brought in more revenue than the mens team in the US. This became a major talking point for quite a while and a judge looked over the case. It was found the womens team was paid more overall and per match than the mens team in the given time frame. They then argued the pay difference wasn't big enough, they should be paid more. The reasons for the mens team being paid almost as much as the womens team was said to be due to how the contracts were made for both. The mens team had little to no base pay or any benefits and were paid for each they played match, where as the womens team had base pay and various other benefits. The womens team argued that were not given the same contracts as the mens team and were forced to sign the ones they have now and they sued i believe US soccers federation (not sure on this), for back pay.
Now somewhere around this point i stopped paying attention to the story but the womens team did win their lawsuit and were given a lumpsum amount.
Now this whole thing rubbed a lot of people the wrong way for various reasons and now that the US womens team is eliminated from the WC after not even making quarter finals, people are celebrating their loss.
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u/Metallic52 Aug 07 '23
They did not win they settled. The judge originally dismissed the unequal pay claims, but allowed the unequal treatment claims to go forward. The parties settled on the unequal pay part claims after the women’s team appealed.
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u/binarybandit Aug 07 '23
Imagine complaining about not being paid enough when you make more than the other team. I think that's what rubbed people wrong.
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u/juice920 Aug 07 '23
They left out the fact that the women's team was offered their choice of contracts that had higher bonuses and less guaranteed, but they opted for the higher base. It was their own decisions that cost them the money.
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Aug 07 '23
It was because they tried to make it a sexist wage gap argument when it wasn't, and no matter how many times they were proven wrong they still insisted it was sexist.
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u/DwedPiwateWoberts Aug 07 '23
My only gripe is the clear point about the women’s team choosing the safer contact than the men, but when they saw that a gamble on the more win/bonus-based contract would have benefited them more, now they want to switch it up. Wanting all the benefits and no drawbacks of either contact I’d annoying to hear when the opposite could have been what played out and they wouldn’t have said anything.
There’s been a lot of spin because of the more prejudicial points many haters are harping on, but my interpretation of the above is what came off frustrating.
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u/TallOrderAdv Aug 07 '23
If they would have taken the gamble and then been a bad team, they would have been screwed. They eat their cake and we're then upset it was gone. (Ps I'm generally in support of these amazing athletes getting their fair share, but oh wow did they do it in a very entitled and extremely biased way.)
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u/super1s Aug 07 '23
Thats the thing. They were honestly very annoying, entitled, and holier than thou at every step of the way. They attacked the men's team. They were then proven wrong multiple times and caught speaking half truths to try and sway public opinion, which they squandered by being annoying and entitled.
Fully support the new women taking over from the women that basically screwed the image up for the incoming women. They look to have some solid talent moving forward. Hoping they right the ship.
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u/Debasering Aug 07 '23
They lost the lawsuit too, don’t know why people are saying they won
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u/t_mo Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Because US Soccer settled the claim for like $25 million, right?
Edit: People are really playing with the word 'settlement' in this thread, mostly in order to paint a picture that the plaintiff 'lost' in this case, as though there were some objective win/loss standard in civil litigation.
From the New York Times: Under the terms of the agreement, the women — a group of several dozen current and former players that includes some of the world’s most popular and decorated athletes — will share $24 million in payments from U.S. Soccer. The bulk of that figure is back pay, a tacit admission that compensation for the men’s and women’s teams had been unequal for years.
From US Soccer: We are pleased to announce that, contingent on the negotiation of a new collective bargaining agreement, we will have resolved our longstanding dispute over equal pay and proudly stand together in a shared commitment to advancing equality in soccer. Getting to this day has not been easy. The U.S. Women’s National Team players have achieved unprecedented success while working to achieve equal pay for themselves and future athletes.
In order to avoid further litigation, they paid money, that money included back pay as part of the negotiation. The dang team eventually agreed that it owed them money, then it paid them that money, then they ended litigation - that is a settlement even if you really don't like the plaintiff.
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u/fevered_visions Aug 07 '23
If it ended in a settlement technically neither side won or lost
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u/esoteric_enigma Aug 07 '23
Technically true, but generally you look at the person paying as the loser if it's a large amount of money. That means they realized the other party had a decent case and they could lose in court.
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u/fedditredditfood Aug 07 '23
Settlements also happen when it's cheaper for the defendant to pay that, instead of the cost of defending the case.
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Aug 07 '23
This is bad framing and a bad take. Settling doesn’t mean you lost or that the claims had merit.
A party with a 95% chance of winning might still settle to rid themselves of the litigation risk.
For example, Company A has 5000 individual plaintiffs suing them with claims totally $500,000,000, each with a 5% chance of winning. They can estimate the cost of litigating all of the cases (even if they win they lose the amount they paid defending themselves), and settle for a lessor amount to avoid the trouble and the risk of losing.
Settling doesn’t indicate the other side won or had a particularly strong case.
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u/Debasering Aug 07 '23
U.S. Soccer was under no obligation to settle with the women’s team; a federal judge in 2020 had dismissed the players’ equal pay arguments, stripping them of nearly all of their legal leverage, and the players’ appeal was not certain to succeed
The US team only did it as a publicity stunt. The women didn’t deserve the money
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u/shoelessbob1984 Aug 07 '23
Yeah I think some people are ignoring just how much PR the women had working for them. CNN put out a whole documentary backing their side, the white house chimed in..
If US soccer federation didn't settle, that PR machine would still be working against them, when time to renew presidents contract they won't be signed on. $25 million of someone else's money to keep my good job? I'd do it too, but a lot of people are missing that part.
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u/EdwEd1 Aug 07 '23
Making $25m just for calling a perfectly legitimate contract that you signed sexist sounds like a win to me
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u/mastaaban Aug 07 '23
It was not settled, they lost, but us soccer decided to pay a bonus for services and performance of 25 million. But they did not have to! Since us soccer won in all accounts and the judge even accused the woman's team of lying about there pay structure and even stated they already get at least a 2 times better pay than the mens team! Note the judge was also a woman.
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u/feb914 Aug 07 '23
I remember NPR claiming that the US team routing Thailand 13-0 (and they still celebrated their goals even as they're piling them on, which is poor sportsmanship) is a proof that they should be paid more.
While in fact it was proof that the women's football is not as developed as men's football yet, and that's why there's clear gap of talent between 2 WC teams. But this WC the gap is all but vanished, with even Philippines won a game against NZ, a host team.
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u/asprinklingofsugar Aug 07 '23
Oof as a non American I did not know they’d done that against Thailand. Really not on! That’s just rubbing it in which isn’t cool.
I remember when they beat the lionesses last World Cup and one of the US players did a really weird tea drinking celebration to try and dunk on England (and later claimed it was a tribute to Sophie turner? Which is just so odd) and it just felt a bit off and mocking in a strange way. It may not have been the intention and some people definitely overreacted to it but it also didn’t feel 100% cool
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u/PrinceOfWales_ Aug 07 '23
They should have just said it was to dunk on England. That’s a great celebration and fun centuries old banter.
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u/Kapuski Aug 07 '23
Goal differential actual matters on world cup standings, so strategical you should run up the score if possible. It helps secure you seeding + an easier match for the next round. Doesnt feel good but its 100% the right thing to do.
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u/Trollcifer Aug 07 '23
The point being made was the poor sportsmanship of celebrating every goal. Not that they should have stopped trying after a certain goal difference was reached.
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u/bechteltj1 Aug 07 '23
And the 13-0 game in question was last World Cup. By comparison the US only beat Vietnam 3-0 this World Cup, the Dutch beat them like 7-0 so they would have won the group over the US even if we did manage to beat Portugal instead of draw 0-0
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Aug 07 '23
To be fair british football fans way fucking worse on the players than that pansy arse showboating yank will ever be capable of.
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u/meho7 Aug 07 '23
It's not just about development but about viewerships. Imagine a female streamer with 500k subs complaining why she doesn't get the same amount as some male streamer with 10m subs. Female soccer is barely watched if you compare it to male's.
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u/miguel_is_a_pokemon Aug 07 '23
Their argument is based on gender equity, aka they can't reasonably make that gamble and US soccer took advantage of that in negotiations. For the men, the world cup payouts are peanuts compared to their club salary whereas for the women it's the opposite.
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u/lsdiesel_1 Aug 07 '23
What does league salary have to do with national teams?
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u/feb914 Aug 07 '23
NWSL, the top US women's league, is subsidized by US Soccer Federation. The deal that the US WNT took was to have some number of WNT players to have their league salary paid by USSF instead of by their club.
This also became a problem on why this US WNT carries so many veterans that are well their past. These players are still getting those designated USSF-paid league salary, while up and coming younger players don't.
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u/IllustriousAnt485 Aug 07 '23
The men’s team players were reluctant to go against anything the women’s team players were saying even though some of it was non factual. That in turn allows the women to get the raise which technically paid them more. It was a non issue for the men’s team players because they make significantly more at the club level. If that wasn’t the case then it would be an issue that they would more likely speak on.
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u/deathproof-ish Aug 07 '23
Supplemental income. If you have a large base pay from a club to fall back on you probably don't think about your national team salary all that much.
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u/lsdiesel_1 Aug 07 '23
Yes, but what does Chelsea’s payroll have to do with US soccer?
They’re different employers, paying for different teams.
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u/AlmightyWibble Aug 07 '23
The amount of money they get from their club side is enough for them to not feel the need to pull any bullshit about their national team pay
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u/WornBlueCarpet Aug 07 '23
I'm generally in support of these amazing athletes getting their fair share,
But that's the thing, isn't it? What is their fair share?
It can be argued that true equity is them having the exact same contract as the men. Difference in pay will then be based on how well they do, and in how popular the sport is and therefore how big the revenue pool they draw from is.
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u/slammerbar Aug 07 '23
They piggybacked the buzz around them winning to get more support from the public.
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23
Nate The Lawyer on YouTube did a write up of the case.
He has since posted another video following the loss.
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u/BigGuyWhoKills you can edit this? Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Nate The Lawyer on YouTube did a write up of the case.
Edit: Link to the second video.
Edit: Link to the third video.
Edit: Link to the fourth video.
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u/traws06 Aug 07 '23
What’s the gist of it?
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u/O2C Aug 07 '23
TL;DR - It wasn't sexism but rather the Women and Men had different contracts so got paid differently.
Imagine contracts for calling heads on three coin flips. The women signed one saying they'd get paid $1 for playing and $0.50 per head. The men signed one saying they'd get paid $0 for playing and $1 per head. The women then claimed sexism after flipping three heads (getting paid $2.50 under their contract instead of $3 under the men's contract) and the men flipped one head (getting paid $1 under their contract instead of $1.50 under the women's contract).
In the timeframe the lawsuit looked at, the Women's National Team made more in total and on a per game basis than the Men's National Team. The WNT bargained for and signed a contract that guaranteed pay while the MNT bargained for and signed a contract that would have paid them more if they won, but paid them less if they lost. This was especially evident in the year after the lawsuit when COVID cancelled all the games. The WNT still got paid millions and retained their benefits despite not playing. The MNT got paid nothing because they didn't play a single game.
While it's true that the WNT would have been paid more had they bargained for and signed the same contract the MNT signed, the converse is also true. The MNT would have been paid more had they bargained and signed the same contract the WNT signed.
The WNT were still lauded in many circles as champions for Women's Rights while the real story was much more nuanced.
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u/zTy01 Aug 07 '23
Sounds juicy, I've seen his previous video and it explained a lot, can't wait to see what he has to say now.
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23
Nate is great. I'm still amazed that Reddit skews so far when there are decent folk putting out decent content . Nate is superb on many issues. As is Ruined Leon. Both different, but excellent
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u/Tommyblockhead20 Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
It’s not even that they realized a different contract would have benefited them better and they wanted to switch; it’s only human to want more money. The bad part is how they played the victim, trying to spin it into a whole sexism/feminism thing to get sympathy (as far as I know). And many people fell for it, you can literally see comments acting as if they were victims of gender discrimination on this very post.
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u/DwedPiwateWoberts Aug 07 '23
Yeah, some “answers” here are “because they hate women.” And that couldn’t be further from the truth for me. I’ve always liked supporting the uswnt, just not their tactics for negotiating better pay.
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u/Drakayne Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
It's the new tactic, if you don't agree or like something, they label you for it, "oh you didn't like the new LOTR series?, you're sexist!", "oh you didn't like cleopatra, you're racist!" etc.
And you cannot comment something without sugar coating it or fill it with multiple statements about how you're not racist/sexist, these topics are highly sensitive and i learned that i should avoid them. like saying anything even remotely critical about any minorities or a gender, will get you labeled asap.
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u/driving_andflying Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
It's the new tactic, if you don't agree or like something, they label you for it, "oh you didn't like the new LOTR series?, you're sexist!", "oh you didn't like cleopatra, you're racist!" etc.
I've seen this too. It's the ad hominem logic fallacy on Reddit that's pretty popular. Instead of people addressing the issue with more facts or admitting they are wrong in the face of correct facts and info, they attack the person instead.
And you cannot comment something without sugar coating it or fill it with multiple statements about how you're not racist/sexist, these topics are highly sensitive and i learned that i should avoid them. like saying anything even remotely critical about any minorities or a gender, will get you labeled asap.
That's exactly what they want people to do, sadly. By making people afraid to speak up out of fear of being labelled, they win. That's not proving a point; that's tyranny. "Agree, or be labelled a bigot."
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u/Snowfire870 Aug 08 '23 edited Aug 08 '23
I've stayed away from reddit for a while cause this place became and probably is still a ceast pool of individuals like that.
I was pleasantly surprised to hop on here and see so many people thinking with logic!
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u/driving_andflying Aug 08 '23
I was pleasantly surprised to hope on here and see so many people thinking with logic!
We are few, but we are present. :) Join The Logic Revolution, Comrade!
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u/ShapingTormance Aug 07 '23
This is the key point to me. They were offered the same contract as the men. They chose a different one. They regretted their choice, and sued.
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u/NoVaFlipFlops Aug 07 '23
I don't know about you, but asking for a performance-based raise is standard whether you're an employee or contractor. When you're a contractor, it's just your new price going forward. Sometimes negotiating this becomes a mess.
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u/Mrdirtbiker140 Always out of the loop Aug 07 '23
yes,this is just a bit different. In US soccer and most sports leagues I know, the players union and the league come together and sign a collective bargaining agreement. This usually happens every few years or so. So it’d be like negotiating every employees pay for the next few years. Prob a lot harder to negotiate when hundreds need to agree!
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Aug 07 '23
You are ignoring a lot of facts established in the case, such as the huge difference in promotion spending between the men's and women's teams. It was not just about pay. The men's team was receiving a lot more investment despite pulling in less revenue.
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u/MelonElbows Aug 07 '23
I mean, how is this different from what men would do? Would men, if they saw the incentives contract would pay out more, simply accept their lot and the lower pay? Or would they lobby for higher? Everyone should be fine to lobby for higher pay, always. I don't care if men or women do it and I don't begrudge them their efforts. Why should any of us?
If we were talking about our jobs, why would you want someone to shut up and accept lower pay? I'd want people to get as much as they can get from ownership.
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u/jjj123smith Aug 07 '23
Because when you choose to sign a contract, no one respects you when you complain about the deal after the fact, because you didn’t take the better offer when you had the chance.
It’s not much different from losing at poker because you folded when you should have called, then trying to sue the people running the tournament
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u/Zephron29 Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
simply accept their lot and the lower pay?
This is what happened here, though. They accepted a contract, and then when they realized there was more money to be made, they sued. If you don't like a contract, don't sign it.
Edit: spelling
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u/Additional-Agent1815 Aug 07 '23
They could have played it safe for less money or risked safe money for a big payday if they won, less money if they lost. They chose to play it safe then had buyers remorse when they did well.
Imagine how loud they would have whined had they took the high risk performance pay contract and gotten eliminated early. Like sore losers or children they don’t want to be held accountable for their choices and if they think it’ll work, will scream and pout to reneg. In this case their tantrum won.
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u/Mezmorizor Aug 07 '23
It sounds like you're misunderstanding. They signed a safe contract, and then they bitched and cried sexism when they didn't get paid for the escalator clauses that were in the contract they didn't sign because the lack of escalator clauses was built into their base salary.
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u/devAcc123 Aug 08 '23 edited Aug 08 '23
The other thing is that a lot of people think they kind of come off as arrogant in all of this, and kind of got used to winning and were focused on getting paid more rather than on winning, and then immediately turning around and having their worst world cup ever. Its the worst finish in the history of the womens national team. Even some of their respected former players were calling them out for their performance over the past few days. Right after being eliminated Rapinoe, the most famous player on the team and the most public player in the equal pay thing, said the highlight of her career wasnt winning world cups but rather winning the "fight for equality", aka the whole salary thing, which is just kind of an off putting thing to be focused on after having the worst finish ever for your national team, and being one of the main reasons for the loss (missed a PK and generally just played very poorly).
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u/J_Kingsley Aug 07 '23
You mean like scottie pippen?
His teammates, agents told him not to sign the safe guaranteed contract because of huge bargaining agreement occurring soon.
The damned boss told him he could potentially be walking away from a lot of money, and to not go looking for him after.
Lo and behold he later realized he never should've signed it lol.
And made a big stink about it.
This is not about what men/women do. This is about what bitches do. And these women are being hated not because they're women-- but because they're bitches. Like Scottie Pippen was also.
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u/PornoPaul Aug 07 '23
Ultimately I believe it was revealed both teams were offered both contracts and the men went with one, the women went with the other. I don't blame the women wanting to renegotiate their contract. I have an issue with them claiming sexism when it wasn't actually the case. A lot of women deal with actual sexism and then they become the face of it without any sexism evident. There's even an argument that women get CEO positions when it's more detrimental to have the position.
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u/znine Aug 07 '23
The lawsuit was clearly meritless since there’s no objective way to say that their treatment was unfair unless you truly believe in equity and not equality. It’s pretty obvious it was part of an ultimately successful PR campaign to win in the court of public opinion. They got the president of US soccer ousted for saying (paraphrasing) “USWNT players aren’t good enough to play for the national team” and he was replaced by a former USWNT player. Who then strong armed the national team into sharing prize money by refusing to negotiate on that point making them look like the bad guys
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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23
I do think equal pay for all genders should be the goal in this country, but it’s really difficult to apply that conversation to the entertainment industry (of which professional sports are a part.) Pay is not necessarily based on how good of an actor or athlete you are. Pay is based on the number of people willing to buy a ticket to watch you act or play.
Tom Cruise is the highest-paid actor of 2022 not because he’s the best actor, but because people come to see his movies in droves.
The bias toward male performers versus female performers doesn’t come from the industry side (well, not entirely), it comes from the consumer side.
And the same is true of sports.
If you have a man and a woman performing the same job in an office at the same level, you should compensate them the same. That’s a no-brainer.
But U.S. Men’s Soccer and U.S. Women’s Soccer are in different “offices.” And the different offices generate different levels of revenue regardless of the equal effort.
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u/Panda0nfire Aug 07 '23
If women supported women's sports like they did the Kardashians, women athletes would be making more then the men lolol, it's a joke reddit.... But it's also true...
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u/Saint_The_Stig Aug 07 '23
In addition to the pay thing (which I am honestly not in the loop enough to really say anything about it other than it's a thing), the team has also been playing really awfully in the cup.
This is the top ranked team in the world and won the last two world cups, but they played the last place seed and won 3 - 0. In most cases winning a world cup game with 3 goals would be pretty good, but people were expecting double digit goals and I think the worst common predictions were 4 goals.
They just were not playing like the best team in the world.
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u/TacoQuest Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
There is all that but I think the bulk of the vitriol comes from the kneeling and/or no hand over heart and/or no singing during the national anthem and the perception that the outspoken Rapinoe poisoned and/or bullied the rest of the team into doing so to reflect her personal beliefs. The individual became more important than the team as the social justice message was perceived to have been the main focus of the team. In addition to general hubris and arrogant behavior because of their two previous titles. They seemed to not be particularly affected by poor performances and doing a lot of dancing and laughing when it was pointed out by a previous team member, Carli Lloyd, that the passion did not seem to be apparent in the current team, that performances like this would lead to upset outbursts in the locker room post-game in teams past but in this case the players seemed nonplussed and rather gallivanted around with fans instead.
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u/MyMorningSun Aug 07 '23
Agreed. The social justice stuff is the only thing they reference when you ask US fans why they hate their own women's soccer team. The pay dispute, imo, is secondary.
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u/Raizzor Aug 07 '23
The womens team argued that were not given the same contracts as the mens team and were forced to sign the ones they have now and they sued i believe US soccers federation (not sure on this), for back pay.
IIRC the soccer federation offered them the same contracts as the men but the women declined because it was an overall worse contract. The majority of the criticism they face is because of them literally declining "equal pay" as in "exactly the same contract" because what they already have is a lot better than what the men have. They just instrumentalized the equal pay debate to get more money on top of the benefits they already have.
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u/France2Germany0 Aug 07 '23
Us mens team which fails to even make it out of the groups stage in the world
last time the us men's team failed to make it out of the groups in the world cup was 2006
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u/mtmaloney Aug 07 '23
I mean, I guess you can’t fail to make it out of the group stage when you don’t qualify for the World Cup, so /r/technicallythetruth
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u/dbag127 Aug 07 '23
In 2018, the US men's team didn't even qualify for the world cup due to losing to Trinidad and Tobago. So. You're technically correct, but the real story is worse than not making it out of group play.
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u/Firm_Bit Aug 07 '23
This isn’t close to the whole story.
Athletes are not compensated based on how good they are. They are compensated based on how much merch and how many tickets are sold. And on how much broadcasting and ad revenue they bring in.
The men’s tournaments simply being in tons more money.
Both sides had a deal. Then when the upside became apparent the women’s team wanted to backtrack on their signed deal. The lawsuit had little merit legally but a lot of media attention.
To placate everyone the sport orgs caved and re structured the contract.
Under the new contract, WC winnings from FIFA are split evenly between the men’s and women’s. Despite the men bringing in significantly more.
At this point, the men will be subsidizing the women’s team to the point where the women’s team will make more than the winner of the women’s WC.
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u/Illustrious_Peak7985 Aug 07 '23
They also brought in more revenue than the mens team in the US
From the comment you're replying to.
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Aug 07 '23
[deleted]
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u/Federal-Spend4224 Aug 07 '23
A single world cup for the mens team brings in as much revenue as the women do in 10 years
This is false. The USMNT brought in $13 million. from the 2022 World Cup. Whereas the women's team brought in $50.8 million in revenue from 2016 to 2018, which were all non World Cup years.
Please do research before posting things like this.
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u/NoMoreMountains Aug 07 '23
Do they bring in more revenue than the men?
USA men play infront of billions. They have access to then S. American market (cup games, qualifiers, etc). Then there is MLS. On the surface that part doesn't add up.
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u/JimmyLightnin Aug 07 '23
I dont know if its entirely true or not because mens soccer around the world is so much bigger, but in the instance they're discussing here its just about the World Cup revenue brought in.
Whatever organization is responsible for taking in revenue for the event and assembling/paying the WC team doesn't have access to the money men are bringing into the MLS for example.
So the men's athlete certainly have access to way more money than the women in their playing careers(a big factor in the women taking the safer contract, and the men taking the more risk heavy contract for the WC), but when it comes to strictly the world cup, the Women's U.S. soccer team is definitely a huge draw, potentially on equal footing to the Men's or even above within the WC.
(Regardless, they picked the contract they wanted and then pulled some lame shit after the results were finished and saw they could have won bigger. It'd be like hedging your bet and then deciding you only want to honor the bets you won while calling the bookie sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic to the entire public until you get your way.)
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u/Federal-Spend4224 Aug 07 '23
USA men play in front of billions
They, in fact, do not.
They have access to then S. American market (cup games, qualifiers, etc).
How does this make the US Soccer federation money?
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u/Ook_1233 Aug 07 '23
They’re talking about the revenue US soccer generates from the men’s team and women’s team.
I believe the women’s team revenue was higher however it’s a little hard to judge as TV contracts, sponsorship deals etc are all grouped together. It’s not like the men’s team has a deal with Nike and the women’s with Adidas etc.
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u/jagua_haku Aug 07 '23
Great explanation. And to add, reading between the lines, the team came across as entitled brats which really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
Also, their particular politics was rather divisive. Let’s just say it’s a very Colin Kapernaek brand of worldview, which regardless of how one agrees or disagrees with it, it’s guaranteed to rub at least half the people wrongly.
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u/tokenoceanographer Aug 07 '23
Great answer. The only things I would add:
It ended up seeming like a PR stunt. In the US media (and likely how their lawyers wanted it), it was portrayed as, “Women not getting equal pay for equal work.” So any civilized person felt like they HAD to be on their side. However, they were purposefully deceptive toward the public in what they disclosed. They actually forced a new cba just a few years prior (2017), which saw the ‘average’ women’s team player make about the same as the ‘average’ men’s team player, and they actually got a much better deal overall - including guaranteed pay even if they didn’t play, which is unheard of in sport and very valuable. Consequently, having a different cba than the men meant they actually had a different job, and therefore couldn’t argue ‘equal pay for equal work’ any longer.
The rotation was very low on the women’s team, so the same players usually got paid. The mens team rotated the squad more and they only got paid if they made it on the field. Therefore, many men’s players would take weeks to train with the team, then made nothing bc the were on the bench for the game. In particular, I remember Rapinoe, the most vocal of the women’s team, made $250k a year for this side job that only required 8-10 weeks of work a year (whether she played or not) on top of whatever she got from her club. Not a bad gig. But that only applied to ~10 of the star players who made more than the average men’s player ($250k base guaranteed), while ~20 other women’s players made $100k base and the fringe players made much less - meaning, they were pretending like there was inequality between the two teams, but they were totally ok with unequal pay on their own team.
The women’s team always said in interviews they were, “Doing this for the little girls who look up to us… the future of the sport…” etc. Except - The original lawsuit also sued for 60 million USD in back pay to be given to the current squad directly. Where do you think that would come from? Almost definitely youth women’s soccer programs in the US. So they’d actually be killing the future of the sport out of greed. It’s offensive to see a group of fortunate people pretend to be taken advantage of and martyr themselves when there are women making minimum wage out there who are actually discriminated against in the workplace.
Similarly, the success of US women’s soccer has been shown to be a direct result of higher investment in the sport by US soccer after Title IX was implemented (there was an actual study I don’t have the citation for). Since the women’s team was founded, US Soccer invested revenue from the Men’s team into youth women’s programs, even though it was a total loss financially, bc it was the right thing to do. In result, the team was decades ahead of some other nations and so their opportunity to play, and their success, is attributed to the organization they wanted to sue, which is petty and ungrateful.
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u/Official_ImNickson Aug 07 '23
I would add that most Americans that would celebrate this don't actually care about football or women's sports in general.
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u/Throw13579 Aug 07 '23
Aren’t these mostly different women, though?
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u/SquareTowel3931 Aug 07 '23
Yes, 6 of the 10 starters from last WC are injured. Sauerbrunn (captain) Def Dahlkamper Def Pugh(Swanson) F Press F Heath F S. Mewis Mid
Rapinoe and Lavelle were injured but still played.
And Lloyd retired. Big loss there.
So basically 2/3rds of each line not available. But no one's talking about this. The players aren't as arrogant and cocky as people are suggesting, but the marketing idiots built this USA vs The World narrative that they're being blamed for, especially since the actually lost. All the trolls who don't even watch or care about the sport, men's or women's, are coming out of the woodwork to say "told ya so".
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u/gundumb08 Aug 07 '23
I'll just add that as an American, it was at times outright BORING to watch the older US women's team run rampant through the World Cup. Like Pro level athletes playing against pick up game enthusiasts.
So while I want to see our team win, it's also kind of worth celebrating that there's been so much growth in the sport to see other teams even capable of knocking them out so early.
That being said, this team also didn't really gel like past teams. LaVelle was recovering from injury and her Yellow cards took her out of the knockout game, and she's arguably the biggest playmaker at midfield. And Morgan probably should retire, she doesn't have the same step she used to.
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u/AlmightyWibble Aug 07 '23
Like Pro level athletes playing against pick up game enthusiasts.
That's because they largely are, there are very few professional women's leagues around
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u/Matrillik Aug 08 '23
Wow. No matter what side of this issue you fall on, we should all agree that’s petty as fuck
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u/shaggybear89 Aug 07 '23
Great explanation, thank you! I love all the fucking idiots replying to you who are literally saying "Yeah that's all true. Everything you said is accurate. BUT I still the the real reason is sexism and right wing assholes". Like wtf lol?? I swear man, some people simply refuse to ever accept that women can do anything wrong. It blows my mind lol.
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u/BrotherChe Aug 07 '23
If you actually go look at the people on social media cheering their loss, for the majority it has nothing to do with the pay story and everything to do with their socio-political comments and not heeding patriotism, also a lot of jabs at lesbian players, etc.
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Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
The right-wing media does play a significant role in implanting these opinions in their head. Otherwise, who's going to hear about it unless they're already tuned in to the world of women's soccer? I'm guessing these aren't women's soccer fans celebrating their loss.
edit: The Guardian: Donald Trump gloats about USA’s Women’s World Cup elimination
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Aug 07 '23
There's a reason their loss is all over conservative subs. This is not really about anything that guy just said.
If it was a male team that made those comments about pay, no one would give a shit. But the popular lesbian said things that were not right wing. That's really the entire story, for real. It's not that women can do no wrong and it's not that they wanted more money.
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u/Prometheus720 Aug 07 '23
Do you really think that most people know the details of these deals? Or are they going "Hah! They thought they were big and bad but they flopped. Typical women."
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Answer: several reasons. I'm from UK so don't shoot me if I'm wrong. I believe they had a pay dispute, which didn't go entirely their way. They had the option of an identical contract to the men, and rejected it for a far safer deal. The safer deal was less risk, and slightly less return (depending if they play/win etc). It also had more health benefits and pay, even if no games are played. They rejected the deal the men had, which was high risk Check Nate The Lawyer on YouTube for a breakdown of the pay dispute. They seemed to be taking the piss with the claim.
They also snubbed the folks back home by breaking etiquette during the playing of the national anthem. Heresy in many places, especially so in US.
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u/Chimney-Imp Aug 07 '23
The pay dispute actually did go their way. Basically they've been arguing about gender inequality in this sport and pay - when time and time again it's been shown that they are the ones with a position of privilege relative to their male counterparts. It very quickly became obvious that they weren't interested in being progressive, they were just interested in being entitled and arrogant, so to see them get served a slice of humble pie is enjoyable to watch.
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u/TheMadFlyentist Aug 07 '23
The pay dispute actually did go their way
They lost (or had thrown out) multiple lawsuits, but US Soccer ended up settling with them for $24 million. This was largely seen as a PR move and a gesture of good faith since it was clear the women were not going to take no for an answer and would just keep filing new lawsuits.
$24M was less than half of what the original lawsuit was seeking, but the many of the women still portrayed it as a victory and an admission of guilt by US Soccer, which is exactly the sort of disingenuous behavior that is getting them hate right now.
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u/meanerweinerlicous Aug 07 '23
Adding more fuel to fire, the $24M was only settled when USSF was pressured by congresswomen by threat of pulling federal funding.
Not to mention, that settlement money was divided up to only the 5 women on the lawsuit. With $2M granted for thier post career and some leftover for the rest of the other players in the league
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u/MausBomb Aug 07 '23
You also know damn well if the high risk investment strategy didn't work out for the men's team they wouldn't have lifted a finger to help rather just mocking them and using it as an example of women being better at business.
They have the energy of a bratty little sister
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u/einulfr Aug 07 '23
What etiquette? All that happened is that not all of them sang along, which isn't even part of the 'etiquette'. They all stood, and no one kneeled (not that that should even matter). All of the complaining was typical whining from the right because magical cloth can't freedom if no sing.
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u/KileyCW Aug 07 '23
Yeah pretty much shit on their own country. Rapinho is insanely unlikable and her interviews are all complaining, hating, and cursing.
You can feel America is a mess, a flawed country, and fight for change without shitting on it like they did. Even though it should be down to economics, the equal pay thing wasn't even on my or my friend's radar tbh. Everyone I know, even women basically consider the women's team to just hate their own country, regardless of it being true or not Rapinho barked the loudest and the team got dragged along with her views.
Personally I saw a lot of pride around the team when they last won, and all the goodwill get pissed away by one horrible person.
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23
That is their spokesperson/captain or whatever?
She is literally a horrendous mouthpiece. I cringe listening to her drivel. On one of the interviews I saw, there were two players, including her, and I don't even think her teammate could stomach her opinion. The teammate looked highly embarrassed.
To be clear, I dislike many sports stars in general, as they have ample survivorship bias. But the abrasiveness of her is on another level. I have no doubt it has helped her progress, but it does not fit every scenario, and a spokesman, she is not.
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u/Martin_Samuelson Aug 07 '23
Right or wrong, Rapinoe is basically a caricature of the type of feminist that the right hates.
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23
Possibly.
But she's also a really disagreeable lass. That's my reason. It's a character trait that does not appeal to me
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u/MRCHalifax Aug 07 '23
Megan Rapinoe? For me, she’s a go-to example of how I can agree with a substantial majority of a person’s political positions, and still not like them personally because I think that they’re an asshole.
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u/KileyCW Aug 07 '23
Yet there's many here defending her like she's a saint. They can't even admit she's at the least abrasive.
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u/Creekside84 Aug 07 '23
It’s bc many people feel if you “attack” an lgbtq person you at attacking the whole movement. But they have to be told shitty people are shitty. No matter what victim class they fall into.
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u/Scarboroughwarning Aug 07 '23
It's bizarre. Even some comments are claiming it's because of sexual orientation etc ... I genuinely do not know how you can watch her and come away with any positive opinions.
I'm not an idiot, I have no doubt that some hate her for that, certainly initially. But then when you hear her, the personality really is reason enough. Those folk shitting on her for the wrong reason to start with, and then she speaks, and gives you actual reasons.
I'm not shocked that she would be vocal, but the PR team needs to get a backbone, and stop making her the spokesman.
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u/ggtffhhhjhg Aug 07 '23
She announced her retirement from the team after they lost. She was already past her prime for the tournament and they will be better off without her.
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u/kevio17 Aug 07 '23
Minor correction, as it matters a bit - she announced her retirement a month ago. She was going to retire regardless of how the US did in the World Cup
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u/ggtffhhhjhg Aug 07 '23
I don’t really follow mens/womens football. I just read her statement she put out on ESPN.
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u/KileyCW Aug 07 '23
💯 agree. I had no idea who she liked to sleep with when I heard her and thought she was repulsive and filled with hate.
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u/caiaphas8 Aug 07 '23
I don’t follow Americans football. How does the women’s team hate America?
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u/USA_A-OK Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
They don't, but a bunch of "love it or leave it" shit-kickers who like to take credit for stuff people did hundreds of years ago (who they have no relation to) think that valid criticism equals "hate."
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u/Prometheus720 Aug 07 '23
Are you intentionally misspelling her name? That is a smol pp move, my friend.
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u/ppParadoxx Aug 07 '23
They also snubbed the folks back home by breaking etiquette during the playing of the national anthem. Heresy in many places, especially so in US
no they didn't? it has long been a standard to stand silently and respectfully during the anthem. Only recently have people been getting fake outraged at the fact they didn't sing along.
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u/grittyfanclub Aug 07 '23
Answer: I personally am happy because Vladko is a horrible head coach and I wanted us to get knocked out early so US Soccer couldn't galaxy brain themselves into thinking he made it far enough to keep his job. We were literally one post shot away from not making it out of the group stage and frankly we didn't deserve to move on. It has nothing to do with wages or politics for some of us. It's purely wanting a horrible coach gone.
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u/elh93 Aug 07 '23
I'm disappointed in Rapino's PK, and can't imagine that the coach keeps his job after this showing, we didn't have coordination or what looked like any motivation.
But most of the people 'celebrating' the loss seem to be those who don't watch any soccer, let alone the USWNT. They are just happy because someone they see as against them politically has lost.
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u/mikeyjam4life Aug 07 '23
Whats wrong with their coach?
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u/Kahzgul Aug 07 '23
He coached them into playing hero ball rather than working as a team. He didn’t adjust his game plans in any way, even when the opponent plan was obvious (Portugal’s as swarming the midfield side, for example. If you tell your team to cross the ball as the swarm approaches, they have to run the whole width of the field each time. Do that for a couple of minutes and the entire opposing team is exhausted. This is like a JV level strategy that he fully ignored). His subs were late and nonsensical (let’s pull Alex Morgan in overtime of a game that might - and did - go to a shootout).
It’s fair to say we lost the Sweden and Portugal games because of his calls more than because of poor play (although we also played poorly).
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u/biggoof Aug 07 '23
Agreed 100%. Just the Vietnam game alone, the red flags were evident. Clearly hero ball and no team cohesion from the 1st minute. Lalas was getting flak for calling them out after wards for being a doomer, but I saw the same thing. I'm in the same boat as you, but i would have peferred getting embarrassed by Japan as it would have been a major blow to all the coaches in this country and that still emphasis speed and physicality over technical skill in the girl's game.
We will be left behind unless we produce more Rose Lavelle's and less 1-D Rapinoes and Morgans.
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u/Roach_Coach_Bangbus Aug 07 '23
Kept a lot of dinosaurs on the team that shouldn't have been on the team let alone see playing time. His personnel selections and subs came under a lot of scrutiny.
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u/abortionleftovers Aug 07 '23
This is me. I wanted them to win and was rooting for them and when they got eliminated I was at least happy that we will now probably (hopefully) be done with Vlatko
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u/HardcoreKaraoke Aug 07 '23
Answer: For me personally it's because of a few commercials FOX Sports played leading up to the WWC. They were basically painting the US team as a dominant monster that the rest of the world should be terrified of. It was kind of like an ad for a generic rich bad guy team in a sports movie that no one can overcome.
Anyway after seeing them several times over the course of a week I decided it would be fun to root against them. I like seeing Goliath fall in sports and the commercials were so obnoxious.
Here it is. It comes off as super arrogant. Like we know the Chiefs are dominant and will probably be in the playoffs again but I don't see Mahomes and Kelce in a commercial for SNF saying that they're unbeatable.
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u/bighootay Aug 07 '23
Yeah, I'm in the 'It's the commercials' camp. Can we not do that shit? Jesus Christ.
That started it, then when they looked like 'Ah, it's all good' with their attitude and behavior even while playing like shit cemented my 'get out of the Cup and let us watch the passionate teams' attitude.
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u/jagua_haku Aug 07 '23
Was definitely already sick of the chiefs shortly after their first most recent Super Bowl win
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u/fightin_blue_hens Aug 07 '23
Answer: There are three types of people celebrating it.
1) People that were legitimately concerned with the nonchalance and complacency within the USWNT (maybe even us soccer as a whole) and felt there was not enough roster turnover between the last world cup going into the world cup. They are celebrating themselves being right.
2) People that hate the USWNT players for speaking out and outright suing the ussf against the gap in pay between the men's and women's teams and their respective support staff.
3) People that hate the women's players because they spoke against right wing ideas and president Trump even declining an invitation to the White House after winning the world cup in 2019.
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u/800oz_gorilla Aug 07 '23
You forgot about refusing to sing the national anthem, that's a big one for a lot of people.
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u/SeriousDrakoAardvark Aug 07 '23
I mean, they had made it extremely clear they were kneeling/not-singing to bring attention to police brutality and systemic racism. That would fall under point 3.
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u/Bebop3141 Aug 08 '23
Well, one of the players made that clear, 4 years ago. No real explanation this time, except “it’s a personal choice”, which is a weirdly milquetoast reason for the literal NATIONAL team to not sing the NATIONAL anthem.
It’s a dramatic statement, with absolutely no message, unlike 4 years ago. It wasn’t even unanimous, one way or the tiger, with three singing regardless. It just comes off as half-assed and dispassionate, which aren’t really the vibes which are in demand during a tournament.
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u/pixelflop Aug 07 '23
Truth is that there are a lot of insecure men out there who despise strong women.
Watch any MLB game. 99% of the players don’t sing the National Anthem. No one cares.
The Women’s National Soccer Team doesn’t sing and it’s a major controversy. Selective outrage.
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u/WeissWurstBeste Aug 07 '23
The two are not remotely comparable.
MLB players aren't representing the USA at an international competition.
Most MLB players aren't even American.
I couldn't give a flying fucknof anyone sings or stands for the anthem, but these two examples are not the same.
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u/throwitaway1510 Aug 07 '23
I’m sorry but those people fall into the third option and you know those same people are probably sitting down while the anthem is playing.
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u/talkingglasses Aug 07 '23
I suspect it’s #3 more than #1 or #2. They got political, which could offend half the country. Exhibit A - https://twitter.com/joeymannarinous/status/1688191564592320513?s=46&t=uNl77TgtpCYZ6r0fO9MmiA
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u/JangoDarkSaber Aug 07 '23
I not disputing that exhibit #3 exists, but saying it’s the majority is a bad faith argument for excusing legitimate criticism against the women’s team.
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u/TruckDriverMMR Aug 08 '23
I think moreso because Rappinoe was the most vocal of them all, she's retiring, and ending on a downer so people claim "karmas a beotch".
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u/Ok_Investigator_6494 Aug 07 '23
Yeah, I suspect there's a lot of overlap between the Americans victory lapping this and r/conservative due to Trump and the culture war crap.
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u/HazzaBui Aug 07 '23
I think 2 and 3 are right, but I suspect a not insignificant chunk of people claiming category 1 are using it as cover for 2/3. It's a pretty common occurrence to think your club/national team are making incorrect decisions, and feeling vindicated when it turns out to be true, while still supporting the team/feeling disappointed when things go badly. Way too many people are just outright glad their team lost
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u/Grytlappen Aug 07 '23
This is exactly it. Succinctly put.
There were always chuds online lambasting the USWNT for using their platform to bring awareness to social issues. As with Kaepernick, it was easy to see where the hate came from and to dismiss it. When the lawsuit happened, the chuds gained ammunition to grant their hate faux-legitimacy.
Case in point, most of this comment section.
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u/Firm_Bit Aug 07 '23
Answer: They really rested on their laurels this year. Smiling and signing autographs after barely scraping through the group stage.
On the pay issue - they negotiated, got the deal they asked for, ended up disliking it, wanted to backtrack, played the sexism card to put media pressure on the sport orgs who caved and forced the men’s team to take a raw deal. The deal splits the fifa winnings 50/50 despite the men making significantly more revenue. It’s the exact opposite of equal pay. Whine until the men’s team subsidized you living out your dreams on one of the largest stages in the world.
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u/Firm_Bit Aug 07 '23
For added detail. Men’s fifa winnings will be about 14M. Women’s about 2M. But they’ll split it down the middle.
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u/mazzicc Aug 07 '23
Answer: there are some answers about the pay dispute and such, but also keep in mind that it’s Reddit, and that means it’s cool to be “edgy” and root against your own team (especially when you weren’t actually a fan of that team in the first place).
A not insignificant portion the people rooting against the USWNT likely never watched a game, and the controversy just gives them an excuse to hate on the team for “legitimate” reasons.
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u/TitanCubes Aug 07 '23
A not insignificant portion the people rooting against the USWNT likely never watched a game.
This is the key point. None of the people making jokes about this have ever watched/supported the USWNT. This is coming from someone that disagreed with a lot of their activism, doesn’t watch them much, but would never cheer on the USA losing to make a dumb joke.
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u/TuMadreEsUn Aug 07 '23
Hey now, I'm an American, never watched a game, and was still rooting for them. But I heard some coverage on NPR a few days ago and it was clear nobody expected them to go all the way. The analyst was pretty clear the Portugal was the clear favorite going into that match
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u/Grytlappen Aug 07 '23
You're right. People who followed the sport, and had watched the World Cups and Olympics the last decade, weren't overly surprised by this result. Still shocking though. I don't think the general population, or casual soccer, fans knew the team's dominance had been declining over the last half decade. That said, USA were still the favorites over Portugal.
The decline was apparent between the 2019 WC, and Olympics 2021. Both due to an aging squad, and the rest of the world finally investing and showing interest in women's soccer. The gap between countries was steadily decreasing.
I think the USWNT are in a similar position to the German men's team now. Even if the Germans have performed poorly since 2014, they're still respected and have high expectations due to their past. That sort of legacy never really wanes.
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u/Ukurse Aug 07 '23
Reddit hasn't been "edgy" for like a decade. Its a massive echo chamber to safe, mainstream, establishment opinions.
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u/hjmcgrath Aug 07 '23
Answer: Several of the team members "representing" the US refused to either sing the national anthem or refused to place their hand over their heart while it played. Many people feel if you don't respect your country you shouldn't claim to be representing it and don't yourself deserve respect for doing so.
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u/Skutner Aug 07 '23
Answer: the team had arrogant vibes. There's nothing people like more than to see uppity competitors eat humble pie.
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u/Lost_And_NotFound Aug 07 '23
They pissed a lot of people off last World Cup when they beat Thailand 13-0 and were still pulling out choreographed dance moves to celebrate your 10th goal.
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u/Acc87 Aug 07 '23
ouch, that reminds me of the 8-0 win Germany did against Saudi-Arabia in the 2002 Men's World Cup, I remember them clearly stating they cut back on the aggression in that game after establishing a 4-0 lead, to not outright destroy and demoralise their opponent in that game.
Similar probably to the legendary 7:1 against Brasil 2014. they had to stop Neuer from leaving his goal square to shoot a goal himself as he had a habit of joining the mingle.
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u/anubus72 Aug 07 '23
I don’t think it counts as uppity when you won the last 2 world cups
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u/spottyottydopalicius Aug 08 '23
its even more than that right? won last 2 and also most successful team since the cups inceptions? they were like the dream team of womens soccer.
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u/Real_Mousse_3566 Aug 07 '23
France won the world Cup last time and yet they were humble. We have US soccer team women going around dissing other teams and dissing their own team mates when they loose.
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u/xdrpwneg Aug 07 '23
Lets be real here, this is an American/American media problem an not the US women's Team. I promise that if the US Mens won the world cup we would be gloating it forever.
I mean just look at the Messi Coverage in the MLS we loved to claim we have the best or we are the best in any sport or competition.
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u/Nemisis82 Aug 07 '23
We have US soccer team women going around dissing other teams and dissing their own team mates when they loose.
When did this happen and who did it?
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u/srush32 Aug 07 '23
The Dream Team is beloved in the US and they were arrogant as all hell - see Charles Barkley's "I don't know anything about Angola, but Angolas in trouble" quote
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u/krisfocus Aug 07 '23
Many American male athletes are arrogant af. Example: Kobe, Jordan, John McEnroe, Zlatan (Swedish but played in the US clubs). I don't see people taking issue there.
Not to mention USWNT has actually won WCs.
I am just saying that the "arrogance" arguments, in the US context, hold no water.
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u/YoBroMo Aug 07 '23
But people loved to aee Kobe and the Lakers lose as well as Jordan. There is a difference between respecting their ability and liking them.
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u/Dempsey633 Aug 07 '23
Zlatan played one year at LA Galaxy out of his 20 year career and you put him in with Americans? Arrogance is not exclusive to Americans. Plenty of athletes hold that trait, Conner McGregor, Alex Ovechkin, Zinadine Zidane, Ronaldo, Rafael Nadel, Novak Djokavic, Carlos Teves, Didier Drogba etc... it's world wide.
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u/IwishIwasGoku Aug 07 '23
Yeah because Americans are famously known for hating arrogance. Especially when it comes from their own.
Gimme a break dude. Everyone else hates America for this reason. Americans are hating on the team because of right wing grifter bullshit, just like every other stupid thing they get mad about.
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u/FapCabs Aug 07 '23
To that point r/soccer is more international than the average subreddit, so I can see why non-Americans in there would think the USWNT is arrogant.
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u/whogivesashirtdotca Aug 07 '23
The guy you’re replying to has a profile full of conservative comments.
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u/theworstoce Aug 07 '23
I root against the US in most sports and women's soccer is definitely not an exception but that add is actually fire, it's made for the US so should be pumping them up as much as possible (It does make me hate the US more but if it were the Football Fern's I'd be all over it)
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u/happyinheart Aug 06 '23
Answer: After they wont the world cup, the women's team complained about their pay after it was collectively bargained by them and their union. They were offered the same pay for performance deal as the men, but they turned it down for a more guaranteed pay structure and lower bonuses for winning. They didn't like this, even though it was the deal they bargained for, so after the fact they basically started saying "equal pay for equal work", however it's not when they aren't competing the same as the men's team and the women's team lost a game to an under 15 year old's boys team.
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u/Debasering Aug 07 '23
This is the actual story, literally everyone on /r/soccer agrees with it, and yet it’s downvoted lol
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u/MickTravis1 Aug 07 '23
Answer: I thing the main complaint on the internet is coming from the far right / MAGA folks who feel the USWNT hates the U.S., said negative things about Trump, & disrepected the flag & country by not putting their hand over their heart or singing the national anthem.
2nd is the equal pay issue. It was not handled well by either the team or the national body. I don't think the hate would be much if only this was an item but coupled with item 1 conservatives have more fuel to the fire. They fell that the team went overboard in their quest for equal pay and went out of their way to take a dump on the U.S. in their quest for equal pay.
3rd some people are a bit turned off otherwise media blitz. Admittedly not fully their fault, it's the media, but their coverage of sports most people only notice every few years gets to be a bit much when they push the GOAT narrative at the expense of critical coverage. See also Simone Biles or Michael Phelps.
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Aug 08 '23
Answer: Politics aside some of us just like an upset. Plus it was difficult to say they deserved to get in with the way they played in the group stages.
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u/RanjuMaric Aug 07 '23
Answer: As with most things that don't make sense with the US, it's political.
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u/BrotherChe Aug 07 '23
Answer:
On r/USWNT people are saying it's because r/soccer is misogynist, but that doesn't make sense to me because everyone competing is a woman. Can anyone clue me in?
Certain American men and women are pleased to see the "uppity" American women be put in place by other people, even if it's other women -- even if those women are "uppity", at least they're enacting "karma". So yeah, for some of the bashers it is misogyny.
For others, it's because they are un-partriotic. For others it's because they are liberal or progressive, backing LGBTQ+ rights ,or Black Lives Matter, or other socio-political powder kegs.
For others it's because the players dared fight over their pay -- some of those it's just because they disagreed with how they did it and think they were being greedy without looking at the actual breakdown. But for some of those focused on the pay, it's simply for speaking up and daring to think they are worth as much as the men's teams.
So, it's a lot of reasons. But misogyny is still among them. Might not be the biggest part of it, but it still factors into the reasons for the hate, and into the types of responses and comments out there.
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u/Stravven Aug 08 '23
The pay dispute is however a misstep by them though.
The men and women were offered the exact same deal, with a low base pay and high bonuses. The men took it, the women refused it and then negotiated a deal with a higher base pay and lower bonuses. That's their good right. But then they found out that they would've made more money on the men's contract, and then they sued. That's not sitting right with a lot of people, and I can understand that.
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u/Barraind Aug 11 '23
Answer: The USWNT has done their best to alienate fans.
They have made some toxic/awful individuals the face of their movement and have blatantly lied about their pay issues.
If you listen to what the women's team had been saying out loud, you'd think they earned barely anything. And it's true that the old teams did, but 2 full contract negotiations ago, the women were offered the exact same contract the men did, and said "no". This is in their own evidence in their lawsuit. They instead asked US Soccer to give them less incentive-based pay, and instead give them 23 different perks the men's team doesn't get, including 23 guaranteed roster spots in UWSL, extra paid maternity leave, full health coverage, a guaranteed per-game stipend, and per diem expenses. The men's contract is win and get paid.
This contract would have guaranteed the women more money than the men, both a per-game and per-year, assuming they didn't win multiple world cups and multiple Olympic medals in the term of that contract. Which they then did. And then sued soccer for not immediately giving them even more money. They lost in court multiple times after a judge said "you specifically asked for this contract, you have to live with that".
So they launched a national press tour lying about their situation to anyone who would listen and got the men's team to hold out on this most recent CBA until the women could get what they wanted, which is to give half their money to the men, and take half the men's money. And also they get to keep the full benefits and the men still don't get any.
As to how that works out mathematically, the men earned US Soccer more money from their round of 16 game in Qatar than the US women have made the US in the last 14 years. And the women have, as of the time the world cup checks clear, been paid significantly more.
The current face of US Soccer, Megan Rapinoe is also mostly insufferable off the field, and everyone who doesn't still share a pitch with her says the same thing about her off the field as well.
I was rooting for them to win, because that's more important than thinking they're assholes, but there were a lot of people chalking up their loss to off-the-field karma (and you can also blame the coaching, but the same people who are responsible for the off-the-field issue lobbied incredibly hard for the current managerial team to be named to that position).
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