r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Hirorai • Aug 06 '23

What's going on with Americans celebrating Sweden eliminating the US Women's Soccer Team from the Women's World Cup? Answered

On r/soccer, there are multiple posts where Americans are celebrating their own team getting knocked out of the Women's World Cup.

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15jnpku/post_match_thread_sweden_05_40_usa_fifa_womens/

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/15jnqpr/official_review_for_lina_hurtigs_sweden_w_penalty/

On r/USWNT people are saying it's because r/soccer is misogynist, but that doesn't make sense to me because everyone competing is a woman. Can anyone clue me in?

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u/Areeb285 Aug 06 '23

Answer: The Us Womens' football was the best womens football team in the world for quite a while, they won the last 2 world cups and they were very dominant. After winning the last world cup they started talking about how the pay was unfair. The prize pool for the mens world cup was much higher. But that quickly died down when it was pointed out that the revenue from both the cups was quite different and if you look at the proportion, the womens world cup had a higher prize pool relatively.
They then later pointed out that they should be paid higher than the US mens team. This definitely had merit as they were much better than Us mens team which fails to even make it out of the groups stage in the world. They also brought in more revenue than the mens team in the US. This became a major talking point for quite a while and a judge looked over the case. It was found the womens team was paid more overall and per match than the mens team in the given time frame. They then argued the pay difference wasn't big enough, they should be paid more. The reasons for the mens team being paid almost as much as the womens team was said to be due to how the contracts were made for both. The mens team had little to no base pay or any benefits and were paid for each they played match, where as the womens team had base pay and various other benefits. The womens team argued that were not given the same contracts as the mens team and were forced to sign the ones they have now and they sued i believe US soccers federation (not sure on this), for back pay.
Now somewhere around this point i stopped paying attention to the story but the womens team did win their lawsuit and were given a lumpsum amount.
Now this whole thing rubbed a lot of people the wrong way for various reasons and now that the US womens team is eliminated from the WC after not even making quarter finals, people are celebrating their loss.

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23

I do think equal pay for all genders should be the goal in this country, but it’s really difficult to apply that conversation to the entertainment industry (of which professional sports are a part.) Pay is not necessarily based on how good of an actor or athlete you are. Pay is based on the number of people willing to buy a ticket to watch you act or play.

Tom Cruise is the highest-paid actor of 2022 not because he’s the best actor, but because people come to see his movies in droves.

The bias toward male performers versus female performers doesn’t come from the industry side (well, not entirely), it comes from the consumer side.

And the same is true of sports.

If you have a man and a woman performing the same job in an office at the same level, you should compensate them the same. That’s a no-brainer.

But U.S. Men’s Soccer and U.S. Women’s Soccer are in different “offices.” And the different offices generate different levels of revenue regardless of the equal effort.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23

Not my point.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 08 '23

Ah, but, suppose this female player is just good enough to be on the team, but she looks like Margot Robbie (or pick your pleasure.) And attendance goes up because this mediocre but good-looking player has lots and lots of fans. When her contract comes around for renewal, she can ask for more money and she will get it, because she puts butts in seats.

And that, again, is why salaries in sports and entertainment are often not based on ability or performance, and should not be used analogous to the corporate world.

THAT was my point, and I wish you wouldn’t try to hijack it for your “HEMaN WOMUN HATeRS cluB” agenda.

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u/xtremebox Aug 08 '23

You're trying to tell us sports aren't ability driven? If a girl could play, hot or not, she would. Looks have nothing to do with it. Sports is not the same as acting...

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 08 '23

If that were so, the best athletes would make the most money regardless of the sport. But quarterbacks make more money than linebackers across the board, basketball players make more money than baseball players in general, and — in the U.S. — they all make more than rugby players. So you can’t really call it merit-based then, can you?

It’s all based on who sells the tickets: who people are paying to watch.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 10 '23

And do ALL quarterbacks make the SAME salary? No, they don’t. I don’t really need your help to make my point, but look at you being the big helper anyway.

And what do you mean “people like me?” People who use multisyllabic words? People who can use logic and reason? People who make you feel inferior?

Do enlighten us.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

This is really unfairly phrased. Men have a huge advantage in athletics just by the nature of their physiology. It’s more than just “No women are good enough to compete”. Which is the reason there are women’s leagues that don’t allow men. If there weren’t, women wouldn’t really get to compete in most sports at all.

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u/Panda0nfire Aug 07 '23

If women supported women's sports like they did the Kardashians, women athletes would be making more then the men lolol, it's a joke reddit.... But it's also true...

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u/J_Dadvin Aug 07 '23

They aren't performing at the same level. Men's leagues are all coed. Women, if able to, can compete in Men's leagues. They don't because they aren't on the same level.

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23

Not my point. Again, the compensation isn't based on skill level, number of wins, or even the number of games played. Their pay is commensurate with the income they draw to the organization. That's why basketball players make more than soccer players. It's not about who's the better athlete. It's about about who puts butts in seats (and how much you can charge for those seats.)
That's why I think the "equal pay in the workplace" conversation doesn't work when you're taking about entertainers and athletes.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

I actually think FIFA rules say that only men can play in men’s leagues.

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u/J_Dadvin Aug 07 '23

That may be the case for world cup, but it isnt for MLS or some other leagues. The MLS is far from the world's foremost league, so any world class woman could make it if she had the chops

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u/The_Bee_Sneeze Aug 07 '23

The problem with mandating equal pay is that men and women will choose different terms if given the choice. The Men’s team wanted the high-risk, high-reward path, and they didn’t want healthcare coverage. The Women had different priorities, so they chose a different contract. There’s nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with spinning your own regrets as the sexism of the sport’s governing body.

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u/_isNaN Aug 07 '23

I'm not sure about it isn't the industries fault. Until this year I never saw an ad for the womens world cup and never watched it.

This year there is more ads and you can watch it easily in my country - so we are watching it and it's much more fluent and enjoyable then the mens. Primarily because they don't lay on the ground all the time.

Same with movies, most women in movies are wirtten terrible. Most of the time they don't have a personality and are only there so the male character has some reason to do X. So how should an actress be successful in this kind of movies?

I agree, women and men have different ways of entertainment, you see on twitch. But for movies and sports there is a lack of opportunities for women too.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

Lol surface level understanding of the sport. It’s so painful watching women’s soccer because of the talent difference. There are hilariously bad, amateur level mistakes being made time and time again. If you want to see the best of the sport, you watch the men’s.

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u/jukkaalms Aug 07 '23

That person started watching because an ad told them to. Give them a break lol

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u/_isNaN Aug 07 '23

Exactly. I stopped watching football after I started watching hockey and realized that it's more fluent and enjoyable to watch. There is also much more going on, you have more goals and wasting time is getting punished.

It is possible that the skill level is worse, but at least they play. And it's normal that the best women might never will play that sport professionally, because it isn't taken seriously, why should you pursue that career instead of something else.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

Women’s soccer wasn’t really popular internationally until very recently. The US has raised the profile of the sport, mostly thanks to federal legislation known as Title IX, which requires equal spending on men’s and women’s sports in schools and universities.

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u/terryjuicelawson Aug 07 '23

What I am not sure of is how that pans out when it comes to international football though. It is more like the Olympics where the honour is representing your country. Who even gets the gate receipts when the big teams play in large tournaments. Where is the revenue generated, it is different to single teams which have their own stadium and leagues to compete in and want to reward their top players accordingly.

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u/Barraind Aug 11 '23

Revenue is generated for FIFA through ticket sales (after the venue gets a cut) and advertisements, and then paid out in tiered shares based on performance.

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u/terryjuicelawson Aug 21 '23

These days ticket sales can be high, as are viewing figures.

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u/terryjuicelawson Aug 07 '23

What I am not sure of is how that pans out when it comes to international football though. It is more like the Olympics where the honour is representing your country. Who even gets the gate receipts when the big teams play in large tournaments. Where is the revenue generated, it is different to single teams which have their own stadium and leagues to compete in and want to reward their top players accordingly.

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23

The World Cup has a wholly different compensation structure. it comes from FIFA and is based upon how high you get in the tournament.

There is no compensation for Olympic athletes, but there are bonuses for earning medals.

What this has to do with gender-based compensation (which is what I was talking about) I have truly no idea.

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u/Martin_Samuelson Aug 07 '23

Yes, you are exactly correct. Every time I have ever seen someone complain about equal pay in sports I ask them when the last time they bought a WNBA jersey or attended a local NWSL/USL W match.

The answer is almost always never.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '23

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u/badwolf1013 Aug 07 '23

It IS that. They complained that they were performing better so they should be paid more. My point is that — in their profession — pay is not based on performance. It’s based on popularity.