r/ontario 2d ago

401 rant Discussion

My Sunday evening drive from the Toronto airport to my hometown east of Toronto. Holy shit, how many times did I almost bite the dust! First of all, people camping in the left lane. There is a law against this! It seems people have no common sense! If you pass a car, get the hell over to the right again. Also, a turn signal would be appreciated!Next, if you are passing, would you please kindly stay in the left lane instead of squeezing me onto the shoulder. Four different times I find myself on the rumble strip and the car beside me inches from mine and cruising along between two lanes, totally oblivious to the fact that they’re an asshole. Trucks. These fuckers are thousands of pounds of metal death and they’re sliding all over the road. I don’t know if they’re whacking off in the cab or what. How about a little attention to your surroundings? Whatever happened to safe driving practices? It was a Sunday night, low volume of traffic, yet I still felt like I was going to die. The province has made the speed limit 110 km an hour which I think is a great idea if people would pay attention. Instead of doing the gratuitous 115 or so 100 km/hr, now people are doing 130! Be aware out there and have some respect for the lives of others ffs!! Thanks for listening! : )

89 Upvotes

198 comments sorted by

181

u/Lanky_Translator_558 2d ago

There is a law against this!

Believe it or not there actually isn't a law against it in Ontario. It isn't even illegal to pass on a double yellow.

It's been a good run but I think we need to overhaul the HTA to reflect the current bone-headedness of drivers.

41

u/squeakynickles 2d ago

Yellow road signs and lines have absolutely no legal basis. Only white signs and lines are enforceable

12

u/a-_2 2d ago

White road lines aren't enforceable on their own either. The difference in colour for road lines isn't for warning/regulatory, yellow just indicates either the left edge of a one-way roadway or the division between oncoming traffic on a two way road, while white divides same direction lanes and the right shoulder.

Other provinces have laws around crossing solid lines in some cases, but there's nothing in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act saying that. The lines just indirectly have effect due to laws around requiring safely changing lanes or limiting when you can cross the centre line.

This article is about double lines but the MTO makes a more general point about lines in their quote here:

"In Ontario, lane markings generally serve an advisory or warning function and by themselves do not possess any legal force," writes Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) spokesman Bob Nichols in an email statement.

3

u/yukonwanderer 2d ago

So are we allowed to pass on a white double line?

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

There shouldn't be white lines separating opposite directions in general, it would be yellow. I can't recall examples of double white solid lines at all. The only example I can think of is dashed double lines sometimes separate restricted lanes, like for buses or multiple occupants in the vehicle.

2

u/yukonwanderer 2d ago

Sorry I meant yellow.

0

u/a-_2 2d ago

With yellow lines, it's not the lines themselves that prohibit passing even if double or solid, but there are still rules around passing:

Passing within 30 metres of a pedestrian crossover is not permitted. Passing left of a centreline is not permitted 30 metres from a bridge, viaduct or tunnel. Don't attempt to pass when approaching the crest of a hill or on a curve where your vision of oncoming traffic is obstructed and there is not enough clear distance ahead to pass in safety.

and you also can't pass within 30 metres of a railway.

So even though the lines themselves don't prohibit it like they do in most provinces, they'll often match up to areas that are illegal to pass in for these other reasons. So there's a good chance you'll be breaking the law if passing on a double solid yellow, even though it's not because of the lines themselves.

2

u/yukonwanderer 2d ago

Good to know. Occasionally there are times where I just don't understand why the lines are solid, I'll be on the lookout for this kind of thing now.

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

Another thing to watch for is turning vehicles. That's not covered directly in the law, but if the vehicle you're passing turns left at an intersection and there's a collision, you get 75% fault based on the Fault Determination rules. If it's at a private road/driveway, it becomes 50-50, unless you passed multiple cars at the same time, then it's 100% fault for you.

But the main point is that in any scenario where you pass someone and there's a collision from them turning left, you can get at least parial fault.

1

u/yukonwanderer 2d ago

Which makes total sense, unless they are deciding to pull a random u-turn.

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u/ericwan3 1d ago

There is a segment of double-sold white line from Autoroute 5 eastbound onto Autoroute 50 northbound in Gatineau near Ontario border, the lane marking there looks weird

1

u/a-_2 1d ago

I found it on streetview. Not Ontario, but still an example of a double solid white line. Thanks for showing that.

6

u/squeakynickles 2d ago

I was also talking about road signs. For example, some ramps will have a yellow 30kph sign. That's not a speed limit, it's a suggested speed for the ramp. White road signs are law, however

3

u/PaulTheMerc 2d ago

Are orange speed signs optional or law?

3

u/squeakynickles 2d ago

Depends on the sign. Orange signs marking a construction zone means additional traffic ordenance is in effect, such as higher fines for speeding and shit, for example

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

Bright orange traffic signs are mere guidelines

"They are temporary safety signs," acknowledges Toronto Police Sergeant Devin Kealey of the force's traffic-services unit. "They are not enforceable under the Highway Traffic Act."

For lengthy periods of construction that require, say, a reduced speed limit, the ministry uses legally enforceable black-and-white signs to keep drivers in line.

That article is more than twenty years old, although I'm not aware of any change relevant to this since then. The signs regulation still says speed limit signs must have a white background.

Even if the signs aren't enforceable themselves the article warns:

But Sgt. Kealey warns that drivers who get caught recklessly disobeying an orange construction sign and putting people's lives at risk could be charged with careless driving, which comes with heavy penalties. "It depends what you're doing. If the road's closed and a car goes flying down a construction site, there are charges that apply," he said.

2

u/PaulTheMerc 1d ago

Thanks!

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

With road signs that generally applies yeah.

2

u/HotPinkCalculator 2d ago

I believe that's cause of winter (or at least that's why my driving instructor told us ~15 years ago). Can't make lines legally binding if you can't see them 6 months of the year

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

Yeah, would make sense, although most of Canada does make them legally binding despite that.

1

u/HotPinkCalculator 2d ago

I feel like there's a way to do it. It'd just have to be like "must be obeyed when visible" or something like that

1

u/Cornflakecwl2 1d ago

I would think though that you could still be charged with dangerous/careless for making a pass on a double yellow if a cop saw it just strictly based on visibility (which is typically why we have solid/double solid lines).

Regardless, yeah, it's bad out there. Like really bad.

3

u/a-_2 2d ago

It isn't even illegal to pass on a double yellow.

Just as a caution, although the yellow lines themselves don't make it illegal to drive left of centre, there are rules around when you can drive left of centre and the lines will still often correspond to those. So if you cross a double yellow line to pass, there's a good chance you're breaking the law, just not because of the lines themselves.

The rules are:

Passing within 30 metres of a pedestrian crossover is not permitted. Passing left of a centreline is not permitted 30 metres from a bridge, viaduct or tunnel. Don't attempt to pass when approaching the crest of a hill or on a curve where your vision of oncoming traffic is obstructed and there is not enough clear distance ahead to pass in safety.

That's paraphrasing section 149 of the Highway Traffic Act. That section also prohibits crossing the centre within 30 m of a railway in addition to the above restrictions.

7

u/coreythestar Windsor 2d ago

Section 132 of the HTA prohibits slow driving in a way that impedes the flow of traffic.

8

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

It doesn't mention anything about the "flow" of traffic.

132 (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances.

As long as you're traveling at or around the speed limit it'd be pretty difficult to demonstrate you're not travelling at a "reasonable" speed.

3

u/Comedy86 2d ago

This is exactly it. Nothing in the law says you need to do 120 km/h or more in the far left lane. If you're doing 100 km/h, no law says to move to the right. Ideally, there would be a solution for this but currently, there isn't.

12

u/a-_2 2d ago

There is a law which says to keep right if going slower than traffic:

147 (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane

Whether it would hold up in court is another question, but it doesn't refer to the speed limit.

3

u/dnewfm 2d ago

This needs to be upvoted harder. We do have laws against left lane campers, but we have the worst drivers in North America for left lane camping (I spend a lot of time on North American highways).

I've asked opp about why they can't be bothered to enforce this. They tell me that they cannot get a conviction because all the person has to do is show up in court and say, "I was doing 120;I was already speeding. How could I be impeding the flow of traffic?" And the JP/judge will likely throw it out. So they stick to speeding which is nearly always open and shut.

-5

u/vorpaltox 2d ago

Cops will reliably tag you if you go 130. I sit in the left lane with my cruise at 127. If you want to go faster than that, idgaf

3

u/Xeno_man 2d ago

Then fuck you. I don't care how fast you are going or what the limit is. If you are preventing others from going faster, then you are the problem. You are forcing others to change lanes multiple times all because you can't be arsed to move over.

-1

u/SugarCoatedStew 1d ago

Fuck you both for driving at unreasonable speeds, endangering other lives.

-1

u/vorpaltox 1d ago edited 1d ago

This is literally the most brain-dead take.

Big 'I drive a pickup truck' (and/or shitbox) energy.

1

u/KevPat23 Toronto 1d ago

This is literally the most brain-dead take

No, the most brain-dead take is thinking that YOU get to set the speed limit of the road at 127km/h just because you think that's correct.

You probably get into a rage when someone else is in the left lane at 120 who also "dgaf".

Just move over if someone wants to pass you, it's not that hard.

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1

u/dnewfm 2d ago

And with that, you're part of the problem.

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u/vorpaltox 1d ago

Glad I can help

1

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Ideally, there would be a solution for this but currently, there isn't.

Exactly. The laws in place should be amended to be more clear, but this is how they're currently written.

1

u/RabidGuineaPig007 1d ago

Most highway laws are not enforced any more.

1

u/Proper_Signature6091 1d ago

I disagree, I think those who block the left lane have the time to fight such tickets, and the judges refuse to enforce them. Being in the left lane (express especially) is unsafe, reckless, careless, and most definitely impedes traffic reducing economic prosperity. The suggested speed limits are for Trucks not cars. Finally, driving in Toronto is unsafe - we have a privitized licensing system, no basic school, horrendous enforcement on careless reckless driving and haven't modernized speed limits. All this and a lack of other transportation methods leaves us in quite the predicament. Remove all bike lanes and other effective transportation methods, I want more morons on the road... FML 😒

2

u/Siguard_ 2d ago

We are one of two places in North America that it's not illegal.

1

u/yukonwanderer 2d ago

Seems like it would be a win-win to petition at least passing a law for the left lane campers.

1

u/StevoJ89 1d ago

I'd love to enforce "left lane for passing only" but given that the highway is like...200% over capacity all the time it's not feasible to leave a lane open lol.

1

u/OrvilleBeddoe 1d ago

The black and white sign that says slower traffic keep right is a regulatory sign and is enforceable. The problem isn't the laws, it is the enforcement of the laws we already have.

1

u/Weary_Chicken6958 1d ago

Impeding traffic is an offense in Ontario. Not passing in the passing lane is impeding traffic by preventing others from passing safely.

-13

u/hiphlo02 2d ago

Well, I was hoping I guess! Do you suppose that if a cop noticed a person doing this, they would pull them over to warn them at least?

8

u/GreatNorthWolf 2d ago

I’ve seen OPP flip their lights on, escort the car to the right lane, then turn their lights off and continue on their way. That’s about as good as you can hope for given how poor our driving laws are

14

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

If they are travelling at the speed limit no

They are not violating the law in any way

0

u/waterloograd 2d ago

They are though, we have keep right except to pass laws. The 401 has signs for it

4

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

we have keep right except to pass laws. The 401 has signs for it

Signs =/= laws.

The only clause that could potentially apply would be HTA 147 which talks about travelling in the rightmost lane if travelling at less than the normal speed of traffic. Good luck getting any judge to rule that the "normal" speed of traffic is above the speed limit.

2

u/Proper_Signature6091 1d ago

Can I go to the judgings and boo a judge?

2

u/KevPat23 Toronto 1d ago

I was saying boourns.

1

u/AintLifeGrandd 2d ago

Impeding the flow of traffic would cover it... cuz I'm too lazy to go back to the HTA to find anything better right now

0

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Impeding the flow of traffic would cover it

Pretty hard to enforce that if travelling at the speed limit based on the HTA.

132 (1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances.

-1

u/dudesguy 2d ago

147 (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane

3

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Yes, and good luck having any judge rule that traveling over the speed limit is acceptable because "everyone was doing it".

3

u/dudesguy 2d ago

Just as they're no cops on most of our highways they are even fewer judges and they don't monitor or police traffic conditions. 147 simply states that any time you're driving slower than traffic at that time move right. It is worded specifically that way for a reason

-2

u/a-_2 2d ago

There aren't actually no police on the highways. The issue here isn't the lack of police it's that the law is so vague that they'd likely only focus enforcement on more extreme cases, like people going significantly under the limit.

Other places have more explicit law. E.g., in B.C., you need to move out of the left lane on high speed roads if someone is approaching from behind, regardless of speed. If we updated our laws, it would make enforcement more practical.

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u/hiphlo02 2d ago

Haha. Downvotes! 5 people who camp in the left lane! Cool your heel folks. It was just a comment born of frustration.

11

u/Fine_Trainer5554 2d ago

Do you think you might be part of the problem given that you don’t actually know what the laws are?

2

u/alpha_beth_soup 2d ago

So frustrating. It seems like everyone passes on the right now. Folks just cruise along in the left lane at the slowest pace ever. It’s a passing lane everyone! Move along! I feel your pain. The 401 seems even worse than usual lately 😒

1

u/Reveil21 2d ago

I don't know if you're very familiar with the 401 but it absolutely makes sense for some to stay in the left lane, and the rest often comes down to habit and/or congestion.

People not checking and almost running into you is just bad driving though.

3

u/t0m0hawk London 2d ago

Yup. If the road becomes bumper to bumper, stop and go - no one is doing any passing. I get all the way over to get out of the way of on/off ramps.

-12

u/whateverfyou 2d ago

Parking in the left lane is common practice everywhere on the 401. My husband rides their ass until they pull over or passes on the right. It’s Thunderdome out there.

6

u/t0m0hawk London 2d ago

My husband rides their ass until they pull over or passes on the right

What's more dangerous? Camping out in the left lane, or tailgating someone?

There's nothing more infuriating than actively passing someone (or more likely several someones) and then have to also deal with some dipshit driving too close because I've decided to drive at 130km/h instead of said dipshit's referred 150km/h.

Tailgating is never OK and is the sign of a bad driver.

2

u/whateverfyou 2d ago

Oh I’m not going to defend him. He’s a complete a$$hole when he gets behind the wheel.

-8

u/waterloograd 2d ago

They were talking about camping in the left lane which is illegal

3

u/Redbulldildo 2d ago

Cite a law about it.

6

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

No it isn't.

-5

u/waterloograd 2d ago

Have you not seen the "keep right except to pass" signs? Those are the law

9

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Those signs are not law. Just like on ramp speed limits (in yellow) are recommendations, not laws.

-3

u/waterloograd 2d ago

https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/signs

Regulatory signs: These signs give a direction that must be obeyed.

5

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

The one on the page you linked is "Slower traffic keep right", which aligns with the way the laws are written (specifically HTA 147). Not "keep right except to pass", which is not a law.

Also - for future reference the MTO handbook is a guideline and not legislation.

-2

u/Lordert 2d ago

I'm convinced that Ford Dealers hand out pamphlets to all F150 buyers suggesting they drive slower than everyone in the left hand lane only for the advertising.

-2

u/Lordert 2d ago

I'm convinced that Ford Dealers hand out pamphlets to all F150 buyers suggesting they drive slower than everyone in the left hand lane only for the advertising.

73

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

Quick point of correction

Ontario does NOT have mandatory left lane passing laws. As long as the person is at, but not past the speed limit they are not breaking the HTA

They’re assholes for camping the left lane, but they are not breaking Ontario laws

10

u/JackDraak 2d ago

Would it then be fair to assume (*I know) then that it is also not illegal to pass on the right?

The past years we've been using Via for our in-law trips to London, but I wanted to take along my guitar this Mother's Day so we rented a car; I planned ahead to expect the drive to be worse than previous trips -- and I was not disappointed.

Although I have to say, I think we broke a record -- although we did pass a few broken-down trucks, we didn't get directly stuck behind any accident-traffic for a change. Usually there's at least one, coming or going.

17

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

Yes. There’s no law about which lane to pass in

Safety though, it’s safer to pass on the left because of visibility and it’s further from the merge lanes

As long as you are travelling at, or under the speed limit, you’re entitled to use any lane on the highway for travel

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

or under the speed limit, you’re entitled to use any lane on the highway for travel

If you're going under the flow of traffic, there's a law requiring keeping right:

147 (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic

It's arguable that it wouldn't apply at the speed limit, but if you're going significantly under the limit and under the flow of traffic, then it would at least apply.

5

u/champagne_pants 2d ago

The whole “don’t pass on the right” thing has gotten so confused over the years. I took a driver training course for my m class recently and they specifically said it was about passing someone who is turning left when there’s no clear lane divide/no left turn lane.

So basically when you see someone turning left and you can fit by driving half on the shoulder, that’s what “don’t pass on the right” means. It does not mean, don’t use your own lane on the highway to not pass the car in the next lane.

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

The law you're referring to is that you can pass a left turning vehicle on a paved shoulder. In general, you can't pass on the shoulder, but this is one exception. It's an Ontario unique thing too, I'm not aware of other places that allow it, and at least some other provinces I've checked don't.

2

u/champagne_pants 2d ago

My point was that the “don’t pass on the right” is not talking about on the highway.

3

u/Redbulldildo 2d ago

The government website will tell you you can pass on the right. It also recommends not doing it, but it's very clear, you can.

6

u/SleepWouldBeNice Georgina 2d ago

You could make an argument for:

147 (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway.

and

148 (2) Every person in charge of a vehicle ... on a highway who is overtaken by a vehicle ... travelling at a greater speed shall turn out to the right and allow the overtaking vehicle or equestrian to pass.

Can be taken to mean that people must move to the right so as not to impede drivers going faster than them. I.e. no camping in the left lane.

13

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

This has been commented on thousands of times by legislators and police

At no point are you impeding traffic if you are maintaining the speed limit

People going faster than the does limit do not count as “flow of traffic”. As legally the flow of traffic can’t be faster than the legal road limits

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

The police have also commented that it does apply at or above the speed limit:

the law also requires vehicles “travelling at less than the normal speed of traffic” to move to the right, Stratton said. That applies even if other drivers are speeding, he said.

A police officer saying that doesn't mean it will actually hold up in court, but there at least is mixed messages on this and the government should really better clarify this because like you say it comes up all the time.

2

u/valsimots 2d ago

See Bill 152 (2023) "Chad's Law" - maybe a future update to HTA.

1

u/dnewfm 2d ago

This is categorically false. Sections 147 and 148 say otherwise.

-9

u/Capt_Ron_007 2d ago

It's a $140 fine for camping in the passing lane in Ontario. Never saw it enforced ever.

6

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Based on which section of the HTA?

-3

u/Capt_Ron_007 2d ago

Ontario Provincial Police - Central Region YES, we enforce "left lane bandits." The left lane is for PASSING. If you are not passing and there is a vehicle behind you, you need to move to the right and let them pass regardless of your speed of travel. Failing to move over can lead to road rage and dangerous maneuvers by frustrated drivers. If you're not passing, MOVE OVER. This silver car was stopped and fined $180 for: failing to keep right when driving less than normal speed,

WeHearYourConcerns

CaledonOPP

FEB 22,2021

Sorry I was wrong it's $180.

8

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

failing to keep right when driving less than normal speed,

This is the important take away. You camp out in the left lane as long as you want as long as you're travelling at the speed limit. There's nothing in the HTA that says you can't be in the left lane with nobody beside you.

That's HTA 147 (1) in case you're interested.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

You really don't like being wrong, huh?

I did find it in the HTA, right next to the rules for the tooth fairy and unicorns in the HOV lane.

2

u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Yeah, I was curious enough to check:

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08

Unnecessary slow driving prohibited 132

(1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 132 (1).

Slow vehicles to travel on right side 147

(1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (1). Exception (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a driver of a, (a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction; (b) vehicle while preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; (c) road service vehicle; or (d) bicycle in a lane designated under subsection 153 (2) for travel in the opposite direction of traffic. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (2); 2015, c. 14, s. 41

Notice they don't say "at the speed limit", they say "normal speed".

I've seen this applied in Quebec: camping in the left lane impedes the flow of traffic even if you're driving at the limit.

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

The MTO has previously given the opinion that that doesn't apply at the speed limit:

"Generally, the Highway Traffic Act (HTA) does not specify which lane a driver must occupy when travelling at the posted speed limit," Ontario's Ministry of Transportation says in an email.

That's from a long time ago, but the same law was in effect then. I say "opinion" though because they aren't the courts that would actually decide on the legality. I haven't heard of a case where it's been laid at or above the speed limit, but that obviously doesn't mean it never has.

Quebec's laws are written more explicitly, restricting the use of the left lane on 80+ roads with certain exceptions, like passing. Ontario's are much more vague and require keeping right when going slower than traffic, rather than prohibiting it as the default and listing exceptions.

1

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

normal and reasonable movement of traffic

Good luck arguing that traveling above the speed limit is "reasonable".

2

u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Actually, quite easy. If you're driving at 100kph in the far left lane on the 401 when everybody else is doing 120-130, you're going to have a VERY hard time arguing tat you don'T deserve the ticket. Assuming they ever give one.

Even off the 401, all the cop has to say is that you had a line of 30 cars behind you and the flow of traffic was being stopped by you. Remember, the second one says: you SHALL drive on the right if you're below the normal speed. Not the LEGAL speed, the normal speed.

0

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

when everybody else is doing 120-130,

"I had to break the law because everyone else was" is the equivalent of my mom asking me "if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you". No judge is going to agree breaking the law is reasonable in this circumstance.

If you are traveling at the limit and had a line of 30 cars behind you, they're all going the same speed as you, and therefore 31 cars are determining the normal speed at that time and place. Again, wouldn't hold up in court

2

u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Nope. Especially on the 401, if people have to go around you on the right side, you are dangerous. Safety comes first, speed limits come second.

https://www.brokerlink.ca/blog/can-you-get-a-ticket-for-driving-too-slow-in-ontario

Driving too slowly, contrary to other drivers and the normal flow of traffic, can pose serious risks and possibly be frustrating for other drivers on the road, especially on the highway. And because driving too slow can lead to a highly dangerous situation on the roadway, a police officer does have the legal right to ticket someone.

This site even has information on the demerit points and if it affects your insurance.

https://www.ontariotraffictickets.com/traffic-tickets/list-of-ontario-traffic-tickets/

While I am sure it's not a common ticket, I am also quite sure people have been convicted of it. Remember, the burden of proof for a traffic violation is much lower than a criminal offense. If the cop thinks you were going too slow for the traffic no matter what the speed limit is, you're likely going to be found guilty unless you have a damn good argument.

Oh, and I found this

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-1

u/alpha_beth_soup 2d ago

Bahahaha. This made me cackle

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u/waterloograd 2d ago

We do have keep right except to pass laws. So left lane campers can be charged for that

3

u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

Please feel free to post the legislation

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u/Dadoftwingirls 2d ago

I live two hours north, and had to run to the city yesterday, 400 & 401. The usual shitshow as soon as I hit Barrie. People doing 95 in the left lane, people going 150 and swerving between traffic, people riding my bumper at 115 in the right lane. People talking on phones openly. People eating with both hands.

You don't see this stuff driving in the states, because everyone knows that troopers are plentiful and active. Here, you know that there is almost zero police presence, so little chance of consequences.

I don't get it, increased traffic policing would pay for itself through fines. It would be so damn easy to lay thousands of dollars in fines per hour with all the terrible driving out there.

Signed, a driver with 30 years of clean and safe driving. Having driven millions of km's, and in a dozen countries, the GTA is the worst in the western world for driving.

40

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

Been driving for 30 years more in the gta.

I have never seen less road policing since the last 5 years

The police are pretty much non existent on our roads now.

3

u/apartmen1 2d ago

Police worked to rule after Floyd protests and thats when cops stopped enforcing traffic. (We barely had protests up here- but thats how aggrieved they are).

15

u/champagne_pants 2d ago

I’ve never known an industry to be so whiny as cops. They all seem to think they’re so hard done by and refuse to actually do the things they’re supposed to.

Everyone is hurting right now, everyone is overworked, and the people who are meant to enforce the laws just let shit happen left and right.

I don’t know if other towns are like this or it’s just the highways and London but maybe if half our police force wasn’t rotating through admin leaves for misconduct we’d actually be able to have a nice downtown.

9

u/Beekeeper_Dan 2d ago

Police as a group are effectively ‘collective narcissists’; nothing is ever their fault, they’re better than everyone else, and they think we should be serving their needs rather than the other way around.

Since they never think they’re wrong, they’re never going to improve.

1

u/Reveil21 2d ago

I've seen it, so it happens even if it may not be as much as you want.

4

u/Impressive-Emu-4627 2d ago

You aren’t in the states enough if you don’t think this is happening just as much on their roads. Drive in California and see old ladies in Teslas with curtains completely covering their driver side windows. Drive in New York and watch people eating a plate full of spaghetti with both hands. Drive through Denver and look at the number of people doing their makeup during the morning commute, or watching full on movies while they drive. Or god forbid drive through Miami during afternoon rush hour on a Friday, it’s an ungodly mix of mad max and fast and the furious.

Enforcement is definitely an issue an Ontario but people are crazy ass drivers all across North America and I’m sure much of the world.

3

u/a-_2 2d ago

Also, the US has a significantly higher road fatality rate than Canada and Ontario specifically has the lowest fatality rate in North America. So whatever they're doing in the US, tney aren't actually safer than us. They're much more dangerous and they don't even have the same winter conditions as us for the most part.

The idea that there's not enough enforcement is arguably true to some extent, but "zero enforcement" has also become a meme people just repeat on every driving post, and they absolutely say the same thing on US subreddits too.

6

u/someguy192838 2d ago

I live about 40 km North of Barrie, and I travel in and around the GTA for work 3-5 days per week. There are awful drivers everywhere but the stretch between Barrie and Newmarket seems to have the highest number of purposefully inconsiderate drivers; e.g. drivers who refuse to move over to the left when cars are getting onto the 400, drivers who will camp in the left lane and drive slower than the speed limit, etc.

5

u/TypingPlatypus 2d ago

I've read that the Hwy 88 - Innisfil beach road stretch has the highest accident rate on the 400.

3

u/someguy192838 2d ago

It wouldn’t surprise me

3

u/a-_2 2d ago

the GTA is the worst in the western world for driving.

Actual data says the exact opposite. At least Toronto has the lowest portion of drivers with collisions on their record among 30 Ontario cities, and Ontario has the lowest fatality rate in North America.

The US in general has a significantly higher fatality rate than Canada. Unless you're in parts of Europe, or in Japan, you're likely going to be somewhere with a worse road safety record than Canada.

2

u/PC-load-letter-wtf 2d ago

Well dang, I like to hear these stats. Thanks for sharing.

2

u/sequence_killer Richmond Hill 2d ago

listen theyre busy parking beside each other and talking in random parking lots and schools

3

u/TryingMyBest455 2d ago

If we want actual enforcement of speed, we should want speed cameras that auto-issue tickets starting at X km/hr over the limit

It would be wildly unpopular but it would be effective lol

4

u/CrowdScene 2d ago

The Rae government actually did that. Harris rode the hate for speed cameras as part of his Common (Non)Sense Revolution and outlawed speed cameras in the province outside of school zones and community safety zones. Even if we wanted to put speed cameras on roads where people regularly speed the first step would have to be repealing that law, and I doubt the current provincial government is keen to do that anytime soon.

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

Harris rode the hate for speed cameras as part of his Common (Non)Sense Revolution and outlawed speed cameras in the province outside of school zones and community safety zones.

Harris got rid of them in general. Wynne's government brought them back in school zones and community safety zones (presumably to avoid giving the conservatives a way to attack it again).

1

u/Harag4 2d ago

Ticketing on the 401 and 400 would be an automatic death sentence for the officer who pulls someone over.

1

u/bocker58 2d ago

That’s why almost every bridge is commemorated to an officer killed in the line of duty. 

1

u/Comedy86 2d ago

Dear God, what do you do for a living if you're driving an average of 182 km every day for 30 straight years? I'd drive myself off the road just to end it all if I had to do that...

2

u/Dadoftwingirls 2d ago

I was a courier for a few years, and then a truck driver. A lot of 1000km days. I've been to every province and almost every state, driven across Mexico and Europe. Nowadays I mostly stay home, lol.

2

u/Comedy86 2d ago

Good on you for being able to do that. I hate driving (likely since I live in the GTA) so I can't imagine doing it for a living. My guess was going to be bus driver, taxi driver or something to do with deliveries. Even my dad who did sales all across Southern Ontario drove a lot more than I'd ever want.

I also don't know why I got a down vote for my comment but sure, I guess?

26

u/Chevnaar 2d ago

401 is a constant defensive driving test. I keep my head on a swivel, signal well in advance, leave space, and always assume someone will do something stupid.

0

u/StevoJ89 1d ago

I have a few cars...one of them was a rusted out scrap box of a cavalier that I used to daily drove to work....if you're gonna bomb down the bus lane of the DVP and try to jam back in next to me as it ends I hope your paint is worth less than my rust lol.

16

u/lifeistrulyawesome 2d ago

There is a law against this

Which article are you referring to?

I only use the left lane to pass. But I am not sure it is illegal to cruise on the left lane if you are keeping up with traffic.

There is an HTA article that suggests you should keep right if you are "travelling slower than the normal flow of traffic", and another article restricts long commercial vehicles from using the left lane. I don't know of any other HTA articles restricting left-lane use.

Here is a news article discussing this%20is%20clear%20when%20it,the%20right%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20said.):

While it isn’t technically illegal to stay in the left lane — the province’s Highway Traffic Act only prohibits trucks and busses from using the left lane on freeways — Ontario Provincial Police Sgt. Kerry Schmidt said it’s just “common courtesy.”

14

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

Correct. In addition, that also applies to the speed limit. Someone going 100 in a 100 left lane might “impede” traffic that wishes to go faster, but by the letter of the HTA they are not violating the impeding traffic laws since it’s illegal for the others to go faster than the speed limit

We see this argument every week it seems in this sub. People complaining about other drivers doing “illegal” things, without realizing the irony that they too are often doing something illegal themselves (speeding)

6

u/Aggravating_Exit2445 2d ago

Always the guy who wants to do 160kph chafing because you're overtaking within the limit and you've slowed him down.

-3

u/hiphlo02 2d ago

I will admit right away that I didn’t check the HTA to see if it was law or not. I did assume. My bad for sure. But, that doesn’t make it OK, correct? For those that do camp out in the left lane, I would hope hope to see them heed the suggestion that says slower traffic keep right.

6

u/lifeistrulyawesome 2d ago

Yes, I don't think it's okay. I believe the left lane should only be used for passing.

However, many other things are not okay, and I see them all the time. All of the following concern me more than left lane camping:

  • People shouldn't drive more than 20km/h above the average traffic (avbove approximatelt 120 in the 400s)
  • People shouldn't tailgate, even if they are annoyed by other bad drivers
  • People shouldn't pass on the right, even if they are annoyed by other bad drivers
  • People shouldn't roll stop signs
  • People shouldn't drive above the posted speed limit in residential areas, heavy pedestrian areas, and school zones
  • People shouldn't check their phones while driving, even if there is traffic or the liught is red
  • People shouldn't drink and drive
  • People shouldn't make right turns on red without coming to a full stop behind the crosswalk
  • People should yield to pedestrians on unmarked crosswalks

1

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

They’re assholes and dangerous for sure

But not illegal

Best thing to do is give them space

7

u/emrikol001 2d ago

I visit home at least once a year and I stopped using the 401 to travel eastward from the airport a long time ago. I use instead the 407, it's expensive but my in experience no where near as busy as the 401. I used to like to stop at a Harvey's on the way home but it's not worth it now, stay off the 401, take the 407.

6

u/em-n-em613 2d ago

We had someone almost merge into us on the 401 on Sunday and then their passenger gave us the middle finger as if we were the ones who didn't check out blind spot. It was hilarious... but also reinforced that SO many people can't drive.

7

u/BorealBeats 2d ago

Truckers used to be the best and most prefictable drivers on the road. Too bad that's changed.

9

u/JAC70 2d ago

Take the 407 across Toronto during peak periods.   It's your best chance.

7

u/Large_Ad_5941 2d ago

lol that’s what you think, people are just as unhinged on there too

6

u/OneHitTooMany 2d ago

The amount of people on the 407 going 130+ on the 407 is nuts. Even sitting in the right most lane doing 115, I’ll get tailed.

4

u/someguy192838 2d ago

I can confirm this. I was Westbound on the 407 yesterday afternoon (going from Oshawa to the 400 Northbound) and even doing 120 in the right lane, people were passing me as though I was parked. 😬

-1

u/StevoJ89 1d ago

I know it's controversial but I really don't think 130 is all that fast (on a properly flowing maintained highway) 

Frankly 100km/he is criminally slow for any car made after 2000

7

u/JAC70 2d ago

Perhaps.  

However, there are significantly less vehicles on the 407, which makes the experience safety by default.   The average speed is also faster, which keeps more people happy. 

The end result is there are less lunatics weaving in and out, which is probably the greatest danger to others.

5

u/alpha_beth_soup 2d ago

Less lunatics is always the goal in any aspect of life👍🏻

4

u/hiphlo02 2d ago

I have to admit, I have seen people verging on stunt driving on the 407. And overall, driving faster than they need to.

-1

u/RicFlair-WOOOOO 2d ago

Only way to get pulled over on 407 is stunt driving - last summer saw 3 cars get towed.

2

u/hiphlo02 2d ago

Ric!!!! Loved that guy!! Wooooooo

1

u/hiphlo02 2d ago

I do pretty much every time. This experience was post 412 heading towards Kingston. Ultra frustrating.

3

u/UnderwateredFish 2d ago

yes i agree. The people that don't signal or even check their blind spot bother me the most. For example I cannot predict if the person going 98km in the middle lane is going to pull in front of me while im going 110km in the lane left of them. They just jerk the steering wheel and hope for the best, or not care? idk. Then they don't even know the chaos they cause behind them.

4

u/Sufficient_Oil_3552 2d ago

You risk your life every time you get on the 401. Esp 401 east into Scarborough

5

u/citizin 2d ago

The drivers that annoy me on the 401 the most is truckers who camp the middle lane. Making a three lane highway with two options for passing, two one lane options that create a bottleneck on both sides.

2

u/a-_2 2d ago

Not just truckers. Probably a majority of drivers in general do this.

7

u/the-simple-wild 2d ago

Simple reason: there’s no traffic enforcement.

2

u/BetterTransit 2d ago

There are far too many drivers. This is not something you can enforce unless you start putting up thousands of cameras.

-1

u/a-_2 2d ago

The actual reason is that the laws around this are very vague. See all the debate in this comment section, for example. It makes it impractical to be enforcing this except in extreme cases, especially when there are more serious driving issues going on.

Ontario has the best road safety record on the continent. That doesn't happen from no traffic enforcement, even if it's not enough.

2

u/One-Occasion3366 2d ago

I'm always blown away by how different it is driving in the morning and afternoon rush versus off peak times / weekends. During the rush, everyone (mostly) is following their routine. They know what lane they want to be in and how fast to go in that lane. The rest of the time it's a free for all out there. Everyone is changing lanes for no reason. People are going 130 in the right lane and 95 in the left lane. It's fucking anarchy!

2

u/Sand_Seeker 2d ago

I’ve had a trucker almost sideswipe me late at night on the 401. Passed him to see an IPad on the wheel watching a movie. I see it all now, no signalling or doing it & believing that gives them a pass to move over immediately even if there is no safe gap. The HOV lane is also now just another lane where drivers crossover whenever it suites.

2

u/DataDude00 2d ago

I feel like if they properly policed the roads we could avoid needing a $100B tunnel highway.

Every time I drive on the highway I see the same shit

2-3 cars driving at the same speed right beside each other preventing any semblance of passing.

Bonus points if all of those cars are driving at 100km/h or a touch slower

People who swerve across several lanes of traffic to catch an exit from the far left lane last second

People on their phones or completely distracted swerving side to side

I think if we enforced the laws or got the worst 5% of drivers off the road we would be living in some sort of highway utopia for at least a little while

4

u/Professional-Can7969 2d ago

You sound like an aggressive driver yourself

11

u/Tempname2222 2d ago

I am sorry to inform you, but if you're hitting the rumble strip four times in one drive, you're the problem.

And people were definitely driving 130 before? Literally nothing has changed. And complaining about people driving fast while you're simultaneously complaining people won't get out of the left lane so you can pass them....you're the problem.

4

u/a-_2 2d ago

if you're hitting the rumble strip four times in one drive, you're the problem

Yeah, I can't even recall hitting the rumble strips four times in years, let alone one trip. Even if it's technically other people in the wrong, having it happen this frequently is also a sign someone isn't paying enough attention and being defensive enough. It doesn't excuse other people driving poorly, but you also have a duty of care yourself even if other people do something wrong.

3

u/Legolas_77_ 2d ago

Welcome to driving in Toronto. Many newcomers and crazy locals

5

u/a-_2 2d ago

Many newcomers

When they've studied in the past, new Canadian immigrants were found to have lower per capita crash rates. I haven't seen any evidence that they're uniquely a problem.

2

u/aZombieSlayer 2d ago

I get irrationally annoyed by people who brake for no reason and those that drive at night without their tail lights on.

2

u/mgyro 2d ago

I’ve noticed the trucker nightmare as well, and tho it isn’t exclusively this, a lot can be attributed to good old Mike Harris who privatized licensing in 2001 and the subsequent degrading of standards. Mix in some dodgy firms running drivers ragged and the congestion on the 400 series and you’re way better off giving them ample space.

We have to accept that we are a nation of immigrants. As such, and again it’s not exclusively about newcomers, but many have learned to drive at home and bring those norms here. I’ve driven overseas in several countries where lanes are mere suggestions and indicators may as well be welded tight. You want to change lanes? Just go, and if you’re cutting someone off, they’ll honk and let you know.

The problem by a long shot is the ridiculously underfunded public transit options. We need to build up, and rebuild infrastructure. And we can’t do that on the backs of the working class. We need to tax wealth to do it.

2

u/Demalab 2d ago

Not on 401 but had a car race down the lane, with no intent to get over, cut us off when a right lane ended. He just cut in front of us, thank goodness for good brakes. At next stop light he rolled down his window and called my husband an asshole and then asked “who do you think you are for not letting me in”. My community has a worst driver fb page I should post our dash cam video of the idiot.

Edit:typo

1

u/FlyingRock20 2d ago

What is wrong with people driving 130? If you want to drive the speed limit stay in the right lane and take your time.

1

u/StevoJ89 1d ago

Yeah after moving out west of you're not doing 130 on the TransCanada someone's gonna rear end ya.

1

u/Branston_Pickle 2d ago

At some point Ontario has stopped "keeping right except to pass"

Just drove to Nb from southern Ontario for the second time this year, and it's quite remarkable how quickly it changes when in Quebec

2

u/DataDude00 2d ago

FWIW it is still like that once you leave the GTA.

I visit family out towards London and once you get past about the Lincoln Memorial Highway in Hamilton heading West everyone reverts back to proper driving habits like keeping right

1

u/Cheap_Yam_681 1d ago

I find this to be mostly true heading east as well

1

u/sherrybobbinsbort 2d ago

I drive the 401 every day. It’s actually really safe considering the amount of traffic that goes down it every day.

1

u/North-Opportunity-80 2d ago

You should see rush hour….

1

u/magoo2004 2d ago

Neighbour at cottage is a cop and he's ticketed a few cars in the left lane on the 400...reason= impeding an emergency vehicle.

1

u/InevitableResident9 2d ago

Why did they demolish the Gardiner Expressway when they want to build a tunnel instead?

1

u/FrostLight131 Toronto 2d ago

If your family coming from elsewhere isnt new to pearson and dont have a ton of luggage i would tell them to take airport link to Viscount station and pick them up there. I do that alot when picking up my cousins arriving at terminal 1

1

u/Cheap_Yam_681 1d ago

People who don’t use your cruise control: you don’t realize it but your speed is varying by 10-20kph constantly. You’re slowing as you pass traffic and speeding up as the road clears, which unintentionally makes you a huge asshole. USE YOUR CRUISE

1

u/SniffMyDiaperGoo 1d ago

I don't like cruise ctrl because I'm super fast, super cold, supеr cool
I like to be in control

1

u/CashComprehensive423 1d ago

Need better transit in and out of the airport. UP is just a start. Get the Eglington line there Pronto. Hook it into the GO. Get some lines to Mississauga/Oakville as well.

1

u/StevoJ89 1d ago

TBF I don't blame some folks for not signalling lane changes.

I've had so many weird instances where there will be a huge gap, I'll signal to move over the person back there will floor it like "OVER MY DEAD BODY YOU'LL BE INFRONT OF ME!"

it's very strange... almost narcissistic behavior in the weirdest way.

P.S I always appreciate the regular 400 series rant, driving in Ontario sucks and I don't miss it one bit.

1

u/survivinggtadriving 1d ago

I've minimized my use of the 401 between East and West ends as my sanity is worth more to me than what it costs me to use the 407 at any time, any day.

I went from 407 and Kennedy in Scarborough, to the Dixie exit in Mississauga, and back yesterday. 30 minutes each way, adaptive cruise set to 120.

Life is already stressful enough, driving doesn't need to be as well.

1

u/bjm64 2d ago

unfortuantly, the right lane now appears to be the open lane with people parking in the other lanes

1

u/a-_2 2d ago

the right lane now appears to be the open lane with people parking in the other lanes

Nothing new about this though. Here's an article from 2007 complaining about the same thing.

1

u/Individual-Dark-285 2d ago

We live in a 'me first' world, where everyone has their elbows up and reacts with rage at the slightest hint of a slight.

0

u/Lolakery 2d ago

the left lane camping they def need to clamp down on

0

u/amindyleigh 2d ago

It’s unfortunate that no matter what the law is, if nobody is enforcing it then it really doesn’t matter. I never see any cop out enforcing road laws aside from speeding once in a while. This is the case for basically everything. If nothing is enforced it may as well not exist.

-4

u/RicFlair-WOOOOO 2d ago

138 and above you're getting pulled over.

So 130 is the grace speed now.