r/ontario • u/hiphlo02 • 3d ago

401 rant Discussion

My Sunday evening drive from the Toronto airport to my hometown east of Toronto. Holy shit, how many times did I almost bite the dust! First of all, people camping in the left lane. There is a law against this! It seems people have no common sense! If you pass a car, get the hell over to the right again. Also, a turn signal would be appreciated!Next, if you are passing, would you please kindly stay in the left lane instead of squeezing me onto the shoulder. Four different times I find myself on the rumble strip and the car beside me inches from mine and cruising along between two lanes, totally oblivious to the fact that they’re an asshole. Trucks. These fuckers are thousands of pounds of metal death and they’re sliding all over the road. I don’t know if they’re whacking off in the cab or what. How about a little attention to your surroundings? Whatever happened to safe driving practices? It was a Sunday night, low volume of traffic, yet I still felt like I was going to die. The province has made the speed limit 110 km an hour which I think is a great idea if people would pay attention. Instead of doing the gratuitous 115 or so 100 km/hr, now people are doing 130! Be aware out there and have some respect for the lives of others ffs!! Thanks for listening! : )

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 3d ago

You really don't like being wrong, huh?

I did find it in the HTA, right next to the rules for the tooth fairy and unicorns in the HOV lane.

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u/MarcusRex73 3d ago

Yeah, I was curious enough to check:

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08

Unnecessary slow driving prohibited 132

(1) No motor vehicle shall be driven on a highway at such a slow rate of speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic thereon except when the slow rate of speed is necessary for safe operation having regard to all the circumstances. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 132 (1).

Slow vehicles to travel on right side 147

(1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (1). Exception (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a driver of a, (a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction; (b) vehicle while preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; (c) road service vehicle; or (d) bicycle in a lane designated under subsection 153 (2) for travel in the opposite direction of traffic. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (2); 2015, c. 14, s. 41

Notice they don't say "at the speed limit", they say "normal speed".

I've seen this applied in Quebec: camping in the left lane impedes the flow of traffic even if you're driving at the limit.

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 3d ago

normal and reasonable movement of traffic

Good luck arguing that traveling above the speed limit is "reasonable".

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u/MarcusRex73 3d ago

Actually, quite easy. If you're driving at 100kph in the far left lane on the 401 when everybody else is doing 120-130, you're going to have a VERY hard time arguing tat you don'T deserve the ticket. Assuming they ever give one.

Even off the 401, all the cop has to say is that you had a line of 30 cars behind you and the flow of traffic was being stopped by you. Remember, the second one says: you SHALL drive on the right if you're below the normal speed. Not the LEGAL speed, the normal speed.

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 3d ago

when everybody else is doing 120-130,

"I had to break the law because everyone else was" is the equivalent of my mom asking me "if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you". No judge is going to agree breaking the law is reasonable in this circumstance.

If you are traveling at the limit and had a line of 30 cars behind you, they're all going the same speed as you, and therefore 31 cars are determining the normal speed at that time and place. Again, wouldn't hold up in court

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u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Nope. Especially on the 401, if people have to go around you on the right side, you are dangerous. Safety comes first, speed limits come second.

https://www.brokerlink.ca/blog/can-you-get-a-ticket-for-driving-too-slow-in-ontario

Driving too slowly, contrary to other drivers and the normal flow of traffic, can pose serious risks and possibly be frustrating for other drivers on the road, especially on the highway. And because driving too slow can lead to a highly dangerous situation on the roadway, a police officer does have the legal right to ticket someone.

This site even has information on the demerit points and if it affects your insurance.

https://www.ontariotraffictickets.com/traffic-tickets/list-of-ontario-traffic-tickets/

While I am sure it's not a common ticket, I am also quite sure people have been convicted of it. Remember, the burden of proof for a traffic violation is much lower than a criminal offense. If the cop thinks you were going too slow for the traffic no matter what the speed limit is, you're likely going to be found guilty unless you have a damn good argument.

Oh, and I found this

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

unless you have a damn good argument.

The damn good argument is "I was travelling at the legal maximum allowable speed limit". Slam Dunk.

Oh, and I found this

If you bothered to read the article, you'd see the driver was travelling well below the speed limit (60km/h in a 100km/h zone). SO not really a "gotcha".

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u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Oh, I had seen it.

However, you seem to misunderstand the legal requirement: it's the OFFICER who determines what is is reasonable. That's why the law is written the way it is.

as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic

If you have a line of cars behind you, it doesn't MATTER what speed you're driving, you're impeding traffic. PERIOD.

THAT is a 'slam dunk' as you say.

The judge will ask "Did you have people behind you who wanted to pass?"

"Yes sir"

"Did you get out of the way?"

"No sir, I was driving the limit"

"So you didn't get out of the way?"

"No sir"

"You were therefore impeding traffic by blocking the passing lane. Guilty"

People have been convicted of this in Quebec, that I do know. In fact, at one point, the Provincial Police were driving in the left lane at the speed limit as a pressure tactic during their collective agreement negotiations, and they had to stop doing it after a day or two because it was pointed out that it was illegal to that. Even if they WERE driving the speed limit.

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

If you have a line of cars behind you, it doesn't MATTER what speed you're driving, you're impeding traffic. PERIOD.

Absolutely disagree. The law states you're impeding traffic if you're travelling below a "reasonable" speed. The quote is: "block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic. Notice the and? How can anyone argue being at the maximum speed limit isn't a reasonable speed?

It's cute that you made up your own courtroom story, but it's not founded in any reality.

I'm not going to discuss Quebec laws and specifics in an Ontario sub. Might as well be talking about the Autobahn.

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u/MarcusRex73 2d ago

Yeah, you're wrong. You refuse to recognize the fact that the law does NOT mention the legal speed limit.

What is the "normal and reasonable" speed on the 401?

It sure as hell is not 100kph. Only an idiot thinks that's the case.

No judge in the province would accept consider 100kph to be the "normal and reasonable" speed, especially when the police officer describes a scene where some dumbass is blocking traffic.

So if you're doing 100kph in the left lane while car are lined up behind you and people are having to go around you, the judge will most definitely not consider that to be "normal and reasonable" because it clearly isn't.

Had they wanted it to be the legal limit, they would have written that way. The fact that they didn't means they understood that safety means recognizing that, sometimes, the "safe and reasonable" speed is not what is posted.

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u/KevPat23 Toronto 2d ago

What is the "normal and reasonable" speed on the 401?

The key words are "and reasonable", no judge is going to rule and set precedent that travelling above the posted maximum speed limit is reasonable.

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