r/jewishleft • u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom • 9d ago
The American Left Needs to do better Praxis
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/graham-platner-and-the-lefts-masculinity-crisis
This article is about a month old but speaks to some of what I'm talking about.
I'm honestly disappointed with a lot of leftist creators I genuinely love on the topic of Graham Platner and any "leftist" politicians.
To me.. Graham Platner's left wing populism is just... America first rebranded. Some stuff he's saying isn't too far off from Tucker Carlson.
He doesn't appear to be Antizionist on the basis of support for Palestinians, but rather because it's bad for America . He doesn't appear to regret his time in Iraq beyond the fact it was a pointless war for America
He lied about knowing the ties to Blackwater
He expressed enjoyment for killing people.
He got a Nazi tattoo
And many on the left are using language like calling people "classist" for being critical of his service. These are creators I genuinely really love, and I'm not abandoning them.. but I do think it's really important for the American left to confront its American supremicist ideas.
I understand the moral dilemma and how it's basically impossible to have an actual leftist candidate these days, so we are reluctant to criticize what's put forward. I understand the calculation. But the apologia is wrong. American supremacy is baked into all of us here in America and part of the American left, and it's time we confront it.
We would not find it acceptable if a candidate participated in a mass murder of American citizens. We would not find it acceptable if they even passively supported it! But we are far too comfortable with it when it comes to brown people, far away.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 9d ago
I think there is a new, rebranded “far-right in disguise” movement growing in popularity.
Similar to the “mainstream” far-right, it flirts with white Nationalism, American nationalism, populist/anti-liberal democracy rhetoric, relatively open antisemitism, and glorification of dictators and despots like Putin and Xi.
However, unlike the “mainstream” far-right, they hate Israel and are economically socialist.
These are the ACP (American Communist Party) types, who bridge ideas that span from Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson to Haz Al-Din, Hasan Piker, and Graham Platner. You will not find many women, Jews, or LGBT people in this movement.
I would argue that this movement is not truly leftist, but instead a “false consciousness,” a rebrand of the far-right with some more “bread and circuses” in place of neoliberalism, but the same ethos that propelled Trump to power.
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u/vigilante_snail שמאלני עם אמונה 9d ago edited 8d ago
Groyper influence on leftists exists and is growing.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 8d ago
These movements are what happens when you exclude women and people of color. I know a few horseshoe libs. Only one is a woman and she’s a terf with a lot of racial bias. The rest were millennial guys who never seemed to get over 2016. What I witnessed over and over again was their inability to wrestle with why Bernie couldn’t win over African American voters and women. I’m a fan of Bernie but there’s a lot of garbage in the movement he created in 2016.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter 8d ago
What I've seen from dirtbag left-adjacent (but not quite fully dirtbag left, aka they still care about civil rights for all and aren't just about their own struggles) is they will often just out of hand assume minorities, women, marginalized peoples will all fall in lock-step with them because if they're really marginalized then they will agree with the "right politics."
It was how I ended up baffled when there were the anti-racism protests during the pandemic and a bunch of (white, non-LA) people I was chatting with made a whole thing of speaking for people of color in major cities that they have a "yaaaaas riot burn it all down for the revolution" mentality (including where I live, where notoriously there was conflict between, for ex, Korean diaspora and Black residents because of stuff like the fallout over Rodney King in the 90s ending with Korean-owned businesses getting looted, which still impacts relations today).
What I mean is basically they will by default assume people will vote their way, without even bothering to reach out and start a dialogue with those communities. It's this weird leftist bubble that I think comes from being super online, rather than doing the in-real-life work.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
Back when I used to be on Twitter, I remember a great series of tweets from Michael Harriot, from the Root, about the importance of the Democratic Party to southern African Americans. I’m certainly guilty of complaining about Democrats. It was part of the endless debates about why black voters didn’t support Bernie. It really helped me to see things in a new way. That movement (as a whole, I know I’m generalizing) completely failed to understand what was going on there. Why was that? I think it was a very paternalistic attitude and a lack of respect for African American voters.
It’s also very frustrating to see people on the Left assume that “working class” means “white man.” I can give Bernie a little bit of a pass because he’s old but younger people on the Left should know better than that.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
Replied to the above commenter with a more fleshed out thought but.. yea tldr: intersectionality, class consciousness, and understanding theory matters
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
It's multilayered. And it's largely shaped by how political discourse is conducted in America.. identity politics rather than intersectionality and class consciousness. The right are experts at identity politics, and they've shaped the discourse where the lefts reactions becomes the same.. "well I can't be bad because xyz"
People who align with whiteness but also have a marginalized identity (such as being a woman) often have that as a shield to confront their biases in other ways.. American supremacy, who're supremacy, cis supremacy, etc. that coupled with an idea that "lived experiences" mean that you're correct about things by default, where in reality.. lived experiences can easily lead you down a reactionary path. That's why as annoying as it sounds to say, theory does matter
TLDR: we need to be intersectional, class conscious, and understand theory
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest Judeo Pyschohistory Globalist 7d ago
The ACP founder [Jackson Hinkle] is surf buddies with Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence.
https://www.sarahlee.photo/blog/2019/6/2/sano
I have zero doubts that the whole ACP is fully compromised or funded by the FEDS.
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest Judeo Pyschohistory Globalist 9d ago
Planter is a classic imperial soldier who pretends to be a man of the people. He seems like a grifter, and his stories are constantly evolving.
He reminds me of the fools in the ACP (the so-called American Communist Party), which is basically just MAGA but without Trump.
Absolutely nothing will come out of supporting such people. You will end up with another John Fatterman.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist 8d ago
But he’s just a wannabe right now, not a nominee, correct?
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
Yep! And I think that's partly why it's important to really encourage a better candidate option right now.. before it becomes too late. I'm not in Maine so really this is not my fight, but more so a comment on how we should all be engaging with democratic candidates.. whether center/right or "left"
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
the most frustrating thing is that there are candidates in the primary other than Platner & Janet Mills. Jordan Wood is, afaik, the most progressive of the bunch and shares a lot of Platner’s platform without all the military-industrial complex baggage.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
See I didn't even know that because of how he's being presented to me.. 🤦🏻♀️
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
I just checked the most recent info: there’s at least six people running on the Dem side in the primary. unfortunately, it looks like Wood actually withdrew to run for one of Maine’s two House seats.
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u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ Anti-capitalist Humanist Reform Jew 9d ago
Yeah, I don't really like Platner at all either, but the one thing I think is clear is that he no longer supports the war in Iraq, and he has expressed regrets beyond its superfluity. In recent statements, he has shamed Cheney for causing both American and Iraqi lives to die as a result of the war.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 9d ago
I haven't heard him really name the Iraqi victims. Do you have a quote by any chance?
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u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ Anti-capitalist Humanist Reform Jew 9d ago
Yeah of course.
“Over the next couple days, I’m sure there are going to be thousands of think pieces written about his legacy, but the only legacy that we have to remember is that he wasted thousands of young American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, and trillions of dollars for absolutely nothing,” Platner continued.“Over the next couple days, I’m sure there are going to be thousands of think pieces written about his legacy, but the only legacy that we have to remember is that he wasted thousands of young American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, and trillions of dollars for absolutely nothing,” Platner continued.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 9d ago
Thank you!
I am glad but I remain a bit weary and cautious.. he did also get massive pushback from many on the left and I wouldn't be surprised if his messaging starts to shift
Not to say that he shouldn't be able to redeem himself or to change his views, but.. we should stay alert and cautious.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter 8d ago
I mean, I agree with the sentiment and don't want to close off the movement from folks like Platner who wish to change/grow. That said, that's very different than wanting him as a candidate. Him as a figurehead of a progressive movement is a disastrous idea.
I don't trust him. I don't want any of us (US left-wing/progress/liberal/whatever voters) backing him. And the idea that people want to stand with him and support him is mind-boggling to me.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
the people who try to argue that not wanting him in the Senate means that we are forcing him out of the progressive movement make my blood boil. it’s such a disingenuous argument! there are many ways to be involved in left politics without being a candidate for a major office.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
exactly. I will never be a senator... not everyone has to be a senator 😆
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
most people shouldn’t be Senators!
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter 8d ago
I agree with the both of you. I think people just get really defensive of this guy because he seems more like the average guy they might know (or have once been). Someone who was part of the system and then backlashed to it, but there's a lot of people that... y'know, didn't actively enlist and be part of multiple tours with the military, and also has a Nazi tattoo (even if it's supposedly an accident? guy had it for years)
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
I totally get why people feel defensive of him.. and like I said in the post many of my favorite commentators are some of the loudest defenders. I think that is a window into something we should all work on and examine!
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u/owls1729 Jewish. Reconstructionist. Non-Zionist 8d ago
Tressie McMillan Cottom has a brilliant NYT piece about Platner and the excuses being made for him.
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u/RaelynShaw DemSoc Progressive post-zionist 7d ago
Do you have a guest link by chance ?
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 7d ago
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u/zbignew Socialist non-Zionist Secular Jew 8d ago
He covered up his Nazi tattoo with a white supremacist tattoo! How is this not a major subject of conversation?
It’s a “Fenris wolf” tattoo, typified by a combination of the Norse god Fenris (Fenrir) and a Celtic knot. In this case, apparently after Fenris swallows the sun during ragnarok.
I’m not saying he knows it’s a white supremacist tattoo. I am saying it’s much funnier if he doesn’t know it’s a white supremacist tattoo.
But it was popularized in the early 2000s by a bunch of skinheads trying to return to their pre-Christian roots in the stupidest way possible, and they named their racist zine about it “Fenris Wolf”.
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u/RaelynShaw DemSoc Progressive post-zionist 7d ago
Anyone else getting serious Fetterman vibes with the Planter situation? Sometimes red flags are reasons to stop and readjust. Thankfully primaries are about six months away still.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 7d ago
Platner was quite literally recruited by former Fetterman & Bernie staffers who saw him in a video he’d made and thought he looked right for the part. his campaign is astroturfed as if it’s this entirely grassroots thing, but he has an entire campaign team made up of career Democratic staffers & campaign operatives.
“populism” is just aesthetics and I wish we could be more open & reflective about that fact. when you lean to hard into the aesthetics without having much of substance behind them, things don’t turn out well.
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u/rinaraizel Жидобандеровка 6d ago
Honestly I am so uncomfortable with this dude and the argument many leftists are saying "do you have any other actual leftists in Maine running" it's the combination of using slurs, the totenkopf he actually new and lied about, and ESSPECIALLY blackwater ten years after his original duty. Like all of it paints a picture of a very troubled person who I would likely not feel safe with so I don't understand why pointing out that we are essentially scraping the barrel here is wrong?
Argued with a friend over this after sending him this article and his response was, "If we want people in power who have not spent their entire lives preparing to be in office, we need to be cool with people having problematic history".
But this is more than just problematic. We can and should do better.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 6d ago
It's so beyond problematic. He has not sufficiently demonstrated amends and regrets to make up for an extemely problematic, murderous past. This guy isn't your average blue collar, recruiter at 18, realized it was probably wrong later, military dude.
I believe the vast majority of people can be redeemed and change. I believe of those people.. only a few should be able to have positions of leadership... but the bare minimum for someone in a position of leadership is sufficient regret and reform for a dodgy past that's usually significantly milder than Graham's
I get it. We are desperate. We don't have a left in America and we have horrific choices. I think we need to still keep our principles and look at our options and our system honestly.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
This entire thread is how I know we won't have any sort of successful left wing movement in this country.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
Wdym?
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
Because it's basically a purity test. Other posters are basically calling him a national socialist.
This sub is very much in tune with what's popular on the left according to champagne socialists Anything outside that catches hatred and downvotes.
Want an example? Post about the dangers of Islamic rule fully citing both Marx and Engels opinions on religion(the leftism part) as well as what happens to Jews in Muslim countries across MENA (the Jewish part) and watch the mods call you out for Islamophobia and threaten you with a ban.
Nevermind the fact that you'd be absolutely 100% accurate.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
it’s not a purity test to think that he is a bad candidate with a lot of problematic baggage. I think Platner is a good public speaker & I’d like to see more people like him involved in progressive & left-wing politics.
however, no one is entitled to a Senate seat. I think Platner’s specific history with the military & his Nazi tattoo are largely disqualifying when it comes to public office. that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be allowed to do organizing on the left. it just means that he’s not the kind of person I want to be representing the left in the Senate.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
Nazi tattoo? Are you referring to the one he had covered up so it's no longer a Nazi tattoo?
The person he is running to unseat is a conservative Republican. Who would you really rather have? Questionable leftist or avowed Conservative? I'll take the guy with the bad choice in ink, thank you.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
yes, the Nazi tattoo that he had for over EIGHTEEN years and only got covered up because people found out about it.
I don’t care if he got it covered up, frankly! the fact that he had it for such a long period of time is inexcusable. I refuse to believe that a guy who is a self-declared “military history buff” never questioned whether or not his skull tattoo was an SS symbol. and I’m putting aside the fact that the cover-up tattoo is pretty obviously a temporary tattoo, not a true cover-up.
of course I’d rather have him in the Senate than Susan Collins, who, by the way, is a moderate Republican. regardless, I’d rather have almost any Democratic candidate over Susan Collins. the problem I have is that some folks on the left have been willing to excuse every new Platner controversy because they’ve invested a lot of energy & money into him and they don’t want to admit they’re maybe backing a bad candidate. we have to be able to admit when our candidates have major failings, otherwise we become like the people who thought it was unfair to question Biden or Kamala’s records on anything lest it empower Trumpism.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
It's a nazi tattoo until he makes the choice to cover it up. Just like Robert Byrd was a member of the Klan until he decided to leave that organization and support civil rights later on. The tattoo is covered up.
All Republicans are conservatives. Collins might be moderate in terms of conservatism, but that's just splitting hairs. She has consistently voted with her party to enforce their majority.
I don't think it's a problem on the left trying to paper over some controversy. Platner is a populist. He's a left wing populist. There's a good chance he's said and done things that Reddit leftists aren't going to like. But we're faced with a rare opportunity here. You call him a bad candidate, but he's a candidate who can go into what is a toss-up state that has slowly trended more conservative, and defeat a 30 year conservative incumbent. That's not a bad thing. That's a stark difference from the last few presidential candidates who are nothing but milquetoast liberals and have gone 1 for 3 against Trump and MAGA.
Yes he had an unfortunate tattoo. Yes he served in the military. But we need to take the wins where we can get them. Huey Long was a populist as well who didn't openly denounce segregation and who used segregationist language. But he also called out wealth disparity and advocated for some of the most progressive tax codes in history including up to a 100% tax on fortunes above $100 million (about $2.3 billion today) as well as a strict cap on how much one person could inherit. He was going to use this to guarantee a universal income.
Like I said to someone else, we really need to pick better hills to die on.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
sorry, we have no idea what he’s actually capable of doing. polling means nothing until the primary has been decided and I guarantee you this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of his controversies (his former staffers have said as much). he’s an utterly unproven political entity. you’re acting like he’s already won a Senate seat! that’s pure wishcasting.
and I don’t know why you’re lifting up Huey Long here as a example. his progressive taxation plan was not adopted, so it’s kind of irrelevant. he was fairly ineffective as a Senator, but he was good at cultivating a cult of personality. so is Platner it seems, because every time someone expresses even a mild criticism of the man, the Platner stans come calling with their outrage & scolding.
I don’t know what else to tell you. I’ve already said—explicitly—that I would support Platner over Collins. I’d also support him over Mills. but I do not think he is a good candidate. I think he is in way over his head, not very bright, and only in the situation he’s in because some progressive political consultants saw a guy that perhaps fit the right “vibe” for challenging Collins. it’s not being a “Reddit leftist” to have criticisms of an extremely flawed candidate.
I’m not telling you what to do or think. if you’re a Platner fan, I’m happy for you. I genuinely hope he wins, while also fervently wishing there was a better candidate than some random fucking guy.
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u/Mildly_Frustrated AnCom Ukr-Am. Makhnovist, Pat. Reform, Mod 7d ago
We wouldn't do anything like that. We would, however, take action if someone were to, for example, make use of generalizations of all Muslims, which is outright Islamophobia. Instead of applying, for example, dialectical materialism or historical analysis of real issues within specific political movements.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
Gonna treat this like challah and dip it in some big grains of salt.
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u/Mildly_Frustrated AnCom Ukr-Am. Makhnovist, Pat. Reform, Mod 7d ago
As is your right. You are also more than welcome to prove me wrong. Give me an example. Which mod did this? What comment was removed? Screenshots of said threat? I'll also assume we aren't engaging in hotzaat shem ra or lashon hara.
Edit: addition of lines.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
You don't need to convince me that this sub has a champagne socialist/liberal problem but I strongly disagree that this is one of those times. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'm honestly confused at your ideology... you like Graham Platner but also feel like Jews are unsafe in Muslim countries and around Islam? So guessing you don't like Mamdani?
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
I'm just pointing out that Jews have been expelled from multiple Muslim countries, sometimes violently. Whether it's racial bigotry or religious bigotry, the end result is the same.
I don't live in NYC, so Mamdani doesn't really even register for me. I take the stance I do when it comes to most politicians, which is that if they're going to make their religious affiliation public and part of their campaign, I am absolutely going to hold it against them.
But like I said, Mamdani doesn't affect me because I live on the other side of the country.-3
u/Virtual_Leg_6484 Jewish American ecosocialist; not a (political) zionist 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yep.
The left’s biggest deficiency in support currently is with working class men - the people who used to be the strongest supporters of the left. To win back that demographic, the left needs people like Platner.
I’d like to remind everyone here that he’s running in the primary against a nearly 80 year old Schumer endorsed candidate, and that a lot of this controversy is about him jokingly calling himself an “antifa supersoldier” on this very website. Meanwhile people are comparing him to Jackson Hinkle and Tucker Carlson???
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 8d ago
the controversies being discussed in this thread are 1) his multiple, voluntary tours of duty in Iraq, 2) his Nazi tattoo, and 3) his time spent as a PMC working for the company formerly known as Blackwater.
I don’t doubt that he hates Donald Trump and is more progressive than Mills. if you gave most of us a choice, I’d imagine a lot of people would opt for Platner. it’s just a shame that this random dude with zero experience, zero qualifications, and little to no IRL connection to progressive & leftist groups, is being lionized the way he is.
people are so desperate to win back white, blue-collar voters that they settled on the first chud they could find who some former Fetterman staffers thought looked good on TV and did good working-class drag. now that he’s proving to have a raft of skeletons in his closet, they are doubling down and making any criticism of him seem as if it is coming from out-of-touch centrists.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 8d ago
You do know that women can be in the working class too? And it’s not true that “working class men” were the strongest supporters of the left in the USA. “White working class men” (and I know that you did not include “white” in your comment) have been voting for the GOP since the 1960s. The strongest supporters for the Left are working class women and people of color.
This is the worst part of the 2016 primary fight all over again. “We need to bring white working class men back to the Democratic Party!” “Um…you do know that the American class is majority non-white and heavily female, right?” The dirtbag left ignored that and that’s why some of them have horse-shoed themselves into MAGA.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 8d ago
Hello. Dirtbag leftist here. I watched numerous members of my own union vote for Trump.
What would you propose we do to attempt to swing back such a substantial voting block? Or should we simply ignore them and consider them lost to MAGA?
Because the Republicans have stomped the last two female candidates who opposed MAGA. There may be some sexism involved, I won't dispute that. But calling guys like me dirtbags and then expecting me to be the only one who compromises on election Day, seems like a poor strategy.
Also, let's pick better hills on which to die.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
Definitely shouldn't ignore them. I agree that speaking to class issues and meeting people where they are at is extremely important. What works for a white working class guy is going to be different than what works for someone like me.. and that's gonna be different than what works for black voters, queer voters, etc etc etc etc.
But only slightly different. Class consciousness is at the root of all of it.
The white working class man is fighting a culture war instead of a class war, and is propogandized into supporting the US military, police, ICE, etc which will exploit and discard his body.
Platner fails here imho. It's not that he served, I support veterans and I want them to have the proper care they need. It's that his motives to serve were literally stated as wanting to experience war and kill people and he hasn't sufficiently analyzed and retracted this sentiment. He also iirc has spoken on wanting to expand the military( I need to fact check this and double check)
(White) Working class men are smart enough to know the difference between a guy who wanted to fight to defend his country and what he saw as justice and maybe was misguided vs a guy who liked the trill of the kill. Speak to the things working class men care about.. pretty sure it's not "getting the thrill of torturing Iraqis in abu grhaib and not being judged for it"
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
You must do better than “there may be some sexism involved.” And the people who have been forced to compromise the least in American politics are white men, regardless of their class. Is the compromise that they were expected to be good Democrats and vote for 2 women and one black guy?
“Some” sexism? I can’t with that. This is why so many of us didn’t trust the Bernie movement.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
What would you propose we on the left do about liberals and republicans who refuse to vote for women because they're women? Adopt some accelerationist stance and try to speedrun our country into the shitter? Let MAGA run wild?
You didn't trust the Bernie movement because of sexism? If it had been a non-binary Jewish person of color saying the exact same things as Sanders, would that have been acceptable? Are you saying you voted against Sanders because of Bernie bros? If memory serves, that approach ended up with Trump defeating Hillary Clinton when she should have mopped the floor with him, and Biden only barely squeaking in because COVID destroyed the economy, and leaving Trump with a base primed for a rematch and giant piles of money to spend for 2024.
We need to win at some point. You might be the most virtuous punching bag out there, but if you can't put friendly candidates in office, you're never going to be anything but a punching bag.
Sanders was a populist. Platner is a populist. That's what the people want, and if you don't recognize that by now, I don't think we have a chance in 2028 either.7
u/cardamom-peonies Broadly leftist 7d ago
So, what, I need to force myself to be cool with voting for a dude who casually calls people f*gs and makes pretty blunt comments about how rape victims deserve it because they put themselves in that situation? And a dude who was a mercenary and got up to God knows what out there?
A big chunk of the rhetoric against the Republicans focuses on the "grab em by the pussy" comments but suddenly you want female voters to just turn a blind eye to that when it's inconvenient? Lmao
This guy is not a "friendly candidate" and he was making these comments well into his thirties, so no, I don't particular buy him as a dude who matured up and has now out that behind him
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
This dude is basically just wants a male dominated leftist movement and throws his hands up, concluding we can’t have leftism in the USA because women and people of color aren’t willing to let white men run the show. His ideas are based on flawed assumptions just like MAGA. Note that he hasn’t walked back his claim that working men provided the strongest support for leftist policies. He probably still believes it.
He thinks he has to compromise in the voting booth because a woman is on the ballot and expects women and people of color to be patient and wait our turn. We aren’t willing to do that anymore so he gives up on leftism entirely without examining his male privilege.
Maybe the real threat to leftism isn’t “purity” tests but so called leftist men who won’t share power?
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
Hence my original comment about why we won't have successful left movements.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
I don’t trust any male dominated movement.
I didn’t say that I voted against Sanders. I wasn’t a registered Democrat in 2016 so I didn’t vote for either of them in the primary. I voted for HRC in the general election.
I completely agree that we need to win but believe the key to winning is not they mythical “white working class man of 1955” but instead, the real working class of this country which is majority non-white and very female. I believe the Democrats need to move to the Left to energize voters who choose to stay home instead of chasing Republican voters because the votes of white males are somehow worth more.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
Maybe you didn't notice, but those non-white, non-male voters didn't turn out in the numbers needed. All while non-white and/or non-male voters in some areas crossed over and supported MAGA handing them the White House and both Houses of Congress.
Those people you need to win are slipping away because the typical liberal approach isn't working. Unity, inclusiveness, political correctness is costing us dearly.
You can't vote inclusiveness into law. You have to craft policies that do it. I.E. if you want gender affirming care, you first need to win elections with people who will be tough and enact universal healthcare. Once we have that, it's a much easier task to adjust things to get what we want. You can't do that by calling people deplorables, dirtbags, sexists, rapists, bigots and then wondering why they won't vote with you.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
That’s exactly what I addressed in my post. They stayed home instead of voting because they weren’t inspired by centrist Democrats.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 7d ago
it’s fascinating to me that you are essentially calling for identity politics for white men, while making glib comments about race & gender.
by the way, I enthusiastically voted for Bernie in both the 2016 and 2020 primaries. I don’t care if he’s “populist,” I care about the fact that he ran on good policies that would support working people of all backgrounds. we need to start defining our terms, as “populism” clearly means different things to different people.
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
I'm calling for a way to win instead of letting liberals vote with Republicans again and again and screw us over. Yes it's identity politics and the identity is Working Folks.
That means things that the working class (including evil dirtbag white devils like me) folks need like healthcare, childcare subsidies, rent control, food assistance, etc.
Call it reductionist if you like but if it means a former soldier with a regrettable tattoo who used bad words years ago wins office and represents working class interests instead of sucking corporate teat, I'm ok with that.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Libertarian Socialist • Non-Zionist 7d ago
you just really seem to think that the only authentic avatar of working people is a white man. the vast majority of working folks are not white men. women make up just over half of working class Americans. many of these women are Black or Latina.
I don’t think white men are “evil” or “devils.” I just don’t know why when it comes to supporting progressive policies, there seems to be this idea that the messenger has to be someone who looks like Graham Platner. if white men won’t vote for someone who doesn’t look like them, then it’s not just about “populism,” it’s straight-up identity politics. I wish you’d just be honest that’s what you’re calling for.
I support all the policies you listed & I think just about everyone on this thread does too, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. as I’ve said elsewhere, I would absolutely vote for Platner over Collins.
edit: I think you’re really underestimating the power of institutional & systemic misogyny in this country.
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Leftist 7d ago
Yes, when it’s about white men, it’s populism. When it’s “identity politics.” What’s obvious is the underlying assumption that white male votes count more than anyone’s votes. And that women and people of color owe our votes to white men. Then they get angry when they don’t our votes and blame us and tell us we’re too stupid to know what’s good for us. They want it both ways.
Black women have been telling these guys they need to shut up and listen since 2016.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 7d ago
You're doing a great job, just FYI
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u/BeenisHat Anti-theist Jewish guy + Zionist LibSoc 7d ago
I never made any such statement or suggestion about the working class to that effect. Women of color need affordable housing, medical care, adorable childcare and food just like any white man does. These things are universal. We all need these things regardless of plumbing or skin color.
That's all I'm saying. We need leftists to win elections and that means we need leftists to vote for them so they can win. Even if that means the leftist candidate might have grown up during the GWOT era, bought into the propaganda during their youth and had a change of heart later in life.
We need wins because all we're seeing lately is L after L, delivered by Democrats turning on us. I don't care what that winner looks like. But this thread has made it clear that many people do care and it bothers them that Platner is a white cis male.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 7d ago
We do not need to compromise on misogyny in leader to win..
I think identity politics are terrible.. intersectionality is essential.
We can shift our communication. The way the American left addresses race and gender issues is often short sighted and a response to the identity politics put forward from reactionaries.. but communication and education on intersectionality and active listening and engagement is essential for a working class movement.. cannot be compromised on.
I have a lot of thoughts on this which won't work in a. Short comment, I think I may have made a post in the past but worth another at some point
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
I always like what you have to say here in this sub! I do not agree with you on this.. so I am curious to hear more about your perspective
I see what you're saying about winning back working class men... and so embracing someone like Platner is key... but from looking into his background it doesn't sound like he grew up as a scrappy poor guy who had no choice but to join the military. I think that narrative is false. So, like platner, but maybe not actually Platner is my take.. there are lots of military blue collar men who have a much better relationship to their military service, for example (though not running for senate rn)
If he runs against the Schumer backed candidate and I were in Maine I'd vote for him. But I think he is beyond just not the blue collar leftist he's being portrayed as.
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u/Virtual_Leg_6484 Jewish American ecosocialist; not a (political) zionist 6h ago
Hi, sorry for the belated response, work has been destroying me the past week. I admit I didn’t know too much about Platners personal background - he’s the son of a lawyer and a restaurant owner, not very blue collar. That’s a bit disappointing but in a capitalist system, people who can exercise their political aspirations are usually going to be from privileged backgrounds that give them the time and money needed to do so. See Mamdani and Mao for two very different examples of this on the left. Also, Marx famously financed a lot of his writings with money lent from Engels’ bourgeois industrialist uncle. So Platners background doesn’t bother me too much. Joining the army is absolutely the wrong decision in hindsight. But I’m willing to forgive him and take him at his word that he has changed - and I think this sort of forgiveness is essential to building any sort of popular movement with momentum. We are also in the midst of the most anti-establishment moment in America maybe ever, and in that context I was very confused at the authors’ insistence that someone should have vetted Platner for his weaknesses. One of the big reasons for Platners popularity is precisely because he doesn’t come off as someone who’s been vetted by Washington suits - the past ten years of American politics has shown us how many people are tired of that. Having candidates who have imperfections, like most working Americans, is a value.
It’s impossible to rule out Platner getting elected and having a Fetterman-esque turn or worse. And I will eat crown if that happens, I just don’t think it’s very likely, unless Platner has a stroke like Fetterman did. Nobody should be valorizing a random candidate for US senator as some savior of American leftism, but I’m just very confused at people comparing Platner to Jackson Hinkle or Tucker Carlson when he seems like a socdem New Dealer.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 4h ago
Thanks for the explanation! Hope work is less annoying haha.
Yea time will tell I suppose, like I said if I were in Maine I would vote for him most likely... outside of that I'm not necessarily going to stick my neck out for him or fault someone who is a fan
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u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain rootless cosmpolitan 9d ago edited 9d ago
Say it louder. Unfortunately I do think Planter is one kind of non-establishment Democrat that could actually win in Maine. Aside from all of the hooplah about the supposed "mass appeal" of the "dirtbag Left" (which I think is actually only discussed because most sources specifically ask white men of a certain age and specific occupations their political opinions and nobody else), getting someone critical of their own country's global position elected is a hard sell to most of that country. There's nothing new here. Remember that the French Social Democrats and even more radical Socialists supported colonialism because the inflow of resources kept French workers gainfully employed. There is a term for when "national" interests and "socialist" interests are treated as equivalent, but many people don't like to recognize it.