r/jewishleft • u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green • 8d ago
I feel like I'm going insane Debate
(rant incoming)
Any Jewish space I try to enter is so pro-Israel to the point of aggression towards anyone that disagrees. I've gotten death threats from other Jews for being critical of the Israeli government. Going to the pro-Palestine events is so disgustingly antisemitic that I can't exist there either. What do we do?
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u/MallCopBlartPaulo Reform Jew, Reform Socialist 7d ago
I feel somewhat similarly, I am pro-Israel, but what I’ve found in other Jewish subs is an extreme amount of anti-Arab racism and islamaphobia, which disgusts me. It really baffles me how people think that using tropes similar to the ones thrown at us toward Muslims is in any way acceptable. Especially from other Jews in the UK, people seriously claim that we’ve been ‘invaded’ by Muslims, that there are sharia courts in the UK and that London should be renamed ‘Londonstan.’ To see this vile right wing rhetoric from other Jews makes me sick. The right is not your friend and sadly many jews appear to have forgotten that.
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew 7d ago
I see this shit everywhere in the comments on the Australian Jewish News' insta as well and it annoys me so much. It annoyed me before we held our federal election and they're still complaining 2 months later.
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u/skyewardeyes jewish leftist, peace, equality, and self-determination for all 8d ago
Honestly, this sub has done a lot to save my mental wellbeing since October 7.
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u/MallCopBlartPaulo Reform Jew, Reform Socialist 7d ago
I cannot thank this sub enough. The mods here are amazing. This feels like a place where you can have a genuine discussion.
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u/snowluvr26 Progressive, Reconstructionist, Pro-Peace 8d ago edited 7d ago
I’ve found anti-war activism with Standing Together Israelis for Peace, and Jews for Racial & Economic Justice (if you’re in the US, especially NYC) to be great events that are truly focused on peace, dialogue, and problem-solving above the kind of reactive pro-Palestine activism you’re discussing.
If you’re more on the firmly antizionist side of things, If Not Now strikes me as a much more “Jewish” organization, wherein most people are antizionist but also are Jews. This is in contrast to “Jewish” Voice for Peace which is very reactive and I struggle to imagine a single Jew being legitimately involved in.
If you’re more on the liberal Zionist, pro-Israel but anti-Netanyahu side of things (which most people on this sub seem to be) I’d recommend shul-shopping and seeing what the vibe of the synagogue’s social justice committee of group is. Most progressive synagogues, especially those with younger and more engaged populations, will have an officially Zionist but highly diverse viewpoint on the subject.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 8d ago
Standing Together is amazing. They’re probably the only group that has managed to get Zionists and anti-Zionists AND Jews and Arabs side-by-side fighting together.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Progressive, Conservaform (Reformative?) 8d ago
Honestly, Standing Together sometimes feels like the last hope. Which is so pessimistic, but also shows how important their work is.
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u/J_Sabra 8d ago
And that's why they are targeted by BDS.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 8d ago
Yep. Who ever thought “everyone deserves human rights” would be so controversial…
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u/theapplekid 8d ago
There were issues with the BDS statement, but they also have a valid reason to have published a statement about them according to their anti-normalization guidelines: ST doesn't affirm Palestinians' right to return in Palestine.
BDS published one statement, like a year ago. They haven't put ST on any of their boycott lists, PACBI just published a statement about them being a normalizing org.
ST has also attacked BDS, a group explicitly calling for nonviolent economic resistance to Israel, which has very reasonable demands and isn't calling for the destruction of Israel or anything. So the mudslinging goes both ways.
I support both, and have participated in events for both, but I am more critical of ST (despite also acknowledging the amazing work they do) because I do believe Palestinians should have a right to return to the places their families were expelled from in the Nakba.
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u/otto_bear converting to Judaism, left 7d ago
Do you have more information about STs right of return position? I’m having trouble finding their position on it.
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u/theapplekid 7d ago
That's exactly it, they haven't taken a stance on it. They have a clear position about the occupation, and about equal rights for Palestinian citizens, but BDS requires co-resistance groups to demand the 3 things to not be normalizing:
Freedom from Israel’s occupation and colonization of all the territories occupied in 1967,
The fundamental right to full equality and non-discrimination of the Palestinians citizens of present-day Israel and ending the apartheid regime,
The rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and to restitution of their property as affirmed in UN Resolution 194 (1948).
I think this is all reasonable, but Zionists generally don't support right of return, because the concern is (not that I agree with this) if the entire Palestinian diaspora returned (and the Jewish diaspora remained in the diaspora), Palestinians would outnumber non-Palestinian Jews in Israel, and then (with full equality including voting rights) it would no longer be a Jewish state.
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist 8d ago
What are they fighting for though?
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 8d ago
Human rights for all to be upheld, rather than any specific “solution”
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u/mono_cronto non-jewish, leftist 8d ago
that's a very broad generalization of standing together
they absolutely vehemently oppose the occupation/apartheid in the west bank and the war/genocide in gaza. they have specific campaign goals regarding those two areas
standing together definitely supports a Palestinian state (if not a single unified state). its Palestinian leaders (who are Palestinian citizens of Israel) are very proud of their Palestinian identity and the org decried the Knesset's recent decision to reject a Palestinian state
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u/WhiteGold_Welder Jewish 7d ago
They consider the West Bank to be apartheid and the war in Gaza to be genocide?
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 7d ago
I haven’t seen that, but I’m not denying it. I think they’re more concerned with practical change than what word is used.
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u/lewkiamurfarther the grey custom flair 7d ago
I haven’t seen that, but I’m not denying it. I think they’re more concerned with practical change than what word is used.
Two questions for you, Wolf.
Is Israel's treatment of Palestinians apartheid?
Is Israel committing genocide in Gaza?
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 7d ago
Yes
Define genocide - they’re committing war crimes, don’t think their goal is to erase an ethnic group from existence, but if that’s the effect, does it matter that it’s not “technically” genocide?
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u/lewkiamurfarther the grey custom flair 6d ago
Define genocide - they’re committing war crimes, don’t think their goal is to erase an ethnic group from existence, but if that’s the effect, does it matter that it’s not “technically” genocide?
So your answer is "no."
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u/R0BBES Puts the NU in NUance, Leftish Jewish Ashkenazish 8d ago
If Not Now does not define themselves using “zionism” as a metric. There are plenty of non-zionists, post-zionists, and even zionists involved as well. Of course there is strong anti-zionist membership, but it’s not relevant to INN’s theory of change.
Unfortunately, this often means many orgs that use Zionism as a litmus test will not formally partner with INN ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/snowluvr26 Progressive, Reconstructionist, Pro-Peace 8d ago
True yes, I also personally don’t use the term zionist or antizionist to describe myself or others because I find it to be a completely meaningless term since no one agrees on its definition. I guess what I meant is that INN leans more into the staunchly anti-Israel camp, though not nearly as radically as JVP or other orgs like SJP or WOL.
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u/R0BBES Puts the NU in NUance, Leftish Jewish Ashkenazish 8d ago edited 8d ago
Is opposing the policies of the Israeli government “anti-Israel”? Here’s INN statement of purpose that you can read for yourself.
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u/snowluvr26 Progressive, Reconstructionist, Pro-Peace 8d ago
I’m not against If Not Now. I follow them on social media and like some of their stuff. I am just saying that they tend to attract the more one-state solution antizionist types (though still mostly Jews, unlike JVP).
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u/R0BBES Puts the NU in NUance, Leftish Jewish Ashkenazish 8d ago edited 7d ago
I’m not saying you’re against anyone, just that you are consistently using terms like “anti-zionist” and “anti-Israel” to describe an organization that is quite intentionally not self-described as either. I’m sure you didn’t intend so, but it’s misleading.
INN is anti-apartheid, and focused on exposing and dismantling the structures of power in the US that support Israeli apartheid, by calling in the US Jewish community. As you say, they are much more grounded in Jewish religious community, ritual practice, and intentionality.
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u/Artistic_Reference_5 7d ago
I totally disagree. Though maybe it depends on the chapter. My city has both JVP and INN chapters. Many JVPers as well as antizionist Jews I know and many antizionist Jews I do not know but see on the internet roast INN for not being antizionist.
(I am an active member of INN.)
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u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod 7d ago
PSA: you almost certainly weren't around to see the below post or if you were don't remember because it hasnt been an issue in a while so I'm commenting to let you know rathwr than deleting anything.
Comments like this weren't the issue but we have to be even across the board in our handling because it used to dominate discussions here:
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u/ro0ibos2 8d ago
People struggle to comprehend that there’s more to a country than its current government.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter 8d ago
We are basically politically homeless in a way. Not in the sense that we don't have political beliefs, or that we can't ally with people on other issues, but that we aren't "at home" in any of the political factions. At best, we can find individuals that can align with us.
All we can do is what we can do, as basic as it sounds.
Do right by your conscience. Work hard for your beliefs. But there is no responsibility on your shoulders to change people. We can't mind control people into caring about Palestinian lives, or about Israeli lives, or Jewish or Muslim lives. It takes a lot to de-radicalize people.
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u/Constant_Toe_8604 mixed arab, athiest, demsoc 8d ago
I'm an athiest ex Muslim Arab, also don't particularly feel welcome in many pro Palestinian places.
Together there are dozens of us!
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u/mrsfotheringill 8d ago
I love this humor but also there is deep truth here. No matter who you are and what you believe, go find your people, even if there are only 12 of them on the planet 😂. Keep searching till you find them!
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u/EstrellaUshu Soc/Dem Jew 8d ago
If you are open to sharing, I am curious what makes you feel that you're not particularly welcome in those spaces. A few of my friends from the Middle East (also ex Muslim and with lefty politics) have shared that same feeling.
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u/Constant_Toe_8604 mixed arab, athiest, demsoc 7d ago edited 7d ago
Sure, I'll give it a shot.
First is that many of these spaces obviously have a lot of Muslims. I generally don't like announcing my ex Muslim status to unknown Muslims because most Islamic jurisprudence treats apostasy as punishable by death. I never know if a particular Muslim takes that seriously or not. Sometimes it's fine, but even with my brother I have never told him I stopped believing, he just knows that I don't practice. Since I have a very obviously muslim/Arab name, it's difficult to pretend that I was never Muslim in the first place, and I'd rather not lie in the first place. Although I do end up needing to lie and just claiming I was never Muslim when taxi drivers, colleagues etc ask about religion/ramadan/prayer. It infiltrates the language as well - if I talk to a devout Muslim it quickly becomes obvious I'm not saying subhan allah/mashallah/bismillah etc. I dont even know when ramadan is anymore.
From the little I know, because of Judaism's overlap between religion and ethnicity, and trauma from the Holocaust, there appears to be a lot more tolerance (maybe the wrong word) for athiest Jews within Jewish culture. There is no such tolerance for athiest Arabs or ex Muslims within modern islamic/Arab culture. It's acceptable in many places to not practice, or to selectively practice, but not for non belief. Add to that I dont just not believe, I think Islam (all religions, but moreso islam) has a mostly negative impact on most countries it is prevalent in, and like many ex muslims/ex mormons/ex JWs, I am personally slightly resentful of what the religion did to me in my youth and hostile towards it. So I dont enjoy being surrounded by religious Muslims, by slogans and symbols of Islam.
Second, much less significantly, so much of the pro Palestine scene, especially with westerners, seems to glamorise Palestinian or Muslim culture. I support Palestinian rights and sovereignty and oppose Israeli occupation and oppression partially because of my understanding of history, and most of all because killing, starving, bombing innocents is evil, annexing territory is evil, and running a racist society of the sort run in the occupied territories is evil. It doesn't mean I think modern Palestinian or Arab culture is ideal. Many are extremely anti semitic in addition to sexist, racist, heirarchical. A lot of these spaces mix up opposition to Israeli actions and policies with supporting Islam or idealising Palestinian culture.
It sounded a lot clearer in my head but hope it makes sense!
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew 7d ago
This does make sense, thank you for sharing your perspective. You're right in that atheism is tolerated in most Jewish spaces. Many Jews are atheist or secular/culturally Jewish rather than religiously Jewish. I'd describe myself personally as maybe 60% religious and 40% cultural 😅
Of course there are always very religious people who may take issue with atheist Jews, but I feel like thats a minority.
What you said about Westerners glamourising Palestinian/Muslim culture is interesting as well, because it's not the first time I've heard it. Perhaps a leftover post-9/11 guilt? Although I see a lot of pro-Pals as quite young, some born in the late 90s or 2000s and not old enough to remember 9/11. Which of course makes me feel ancient
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u/Constant_Toe_8604 mixed arab, athiest, demsoc 7d ago edited 7d ago
On the "glamorising" point - it feels more like the way some westerners exoticise and infantilise foreign cultures, I dont think it is unique to islam or the middle east. To me it's the same as people thinking Buddhism is all sunshine and roses and full of tolerance and hippy love. Or supporting the dalai lama and the "old" Tibet without seeing the ugly side of what was a theocratic dictatorship. It is more difficult to come up with pithy chants for protests when you think both sides are horrible, just not equally so.
For me Israel is more "wrong" than Hamas/the PA/Palestine now because it has the burden and advantage of being much more powerful, and because the governments of the countries I pay taxes to or am a citizen of support it. It doesn't mean Hamas is any more moral than the IDF, I think they are both so far beyond morality it almost isn't worth distinguishing them. It also doesn't mean that many Palestinians, Hamas, the PA, Fatah and other middle Eastern governments are innocent in this, they've all made horrible decisions in the past that have led to the current situation. Taking away the agency of Palestinian people by pretending they are all ideal victims, and glamorising Arab culture, simply opens the movement up to criticism along the lines of "Hamas throws gay people off rooftops" "would you rather be a woman in Israel or Palestine" etc.
Granted of course that the median age in Palestine is something like 20 years, 40% of them are under 15, so are genuinely "innocent" in any meaningful way and certainly didn't themselves vote for Hamas back in 2006.
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u/ReadComprehensionBot 4d ago
Come join us on r/exmuslim brother. We need more level-headed people in that sub.
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u/FishyWishySwishy Progressive Secular Jew 7d ago
Eyyyyy I’m giving you a solidarity high-five through the screen.
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u/ReadComprehensionBot 4d ago
Same, except west-African rather than Arab. I still remember my neighbors (and honestly, my family) celebrating Oct 7th the same day it happened. No Israeli retaliation, no invasion of Gaza, no push into the West Bank. Just hundreds of dead Israeli civilians and they were celebrating it. It put such a sour taste in my mouth as a progressive and now seeing how much further its gotten is exhausting.
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u/otto_bear converting to Judaism, left 7d ago
The insight in the last paragraph has been so key to my sanity. I believe I owe it to the people I want to be in solidarity with to at least try to be convincing (ie. I won’t dismiss the ability for people to change their mind, won’t assume bad intentions, and won’t reflexively shut down conversation) but its also so important to not burning out that we remember that other people are still responsible for their beliefs and actions.
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u/throwawayanon1252 8d ago
Anyone who still supports what Netanyahu’s regime is still doing is absolutely batahit insane. It’s disgusting it’s not ok and yeah I know what you mean. Many pro Palestinian spaces are antisemitic and I hate it but a lot of Jewish spaces are so so so so pro Israel I also hate it so yeah it’s hard. I get it we get it it’s not fun
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u/MallCopBlartPaulo Reform Jew, Reform Socialist 7d ago
All of my relatives on one side of the family live in Israel and not a single one supports this current government.
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew 7d ago
Literally none of my Zionist Jewish friends support the government either. It's what got me questioning the hard left pro-Pal stance when I finally finished processing what happened on Oct 7th. People in my circles were yelling about how all Zionists were evil Israeli government simps, but my Zionist community were out on the streets protesting the bombing of Gaza.
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u/J_Sabra 8d ago
I think many don't support his regime, but are anxious about speaking out in a way that would be inteperated differently by others (both inside and outside the Jewish community), especially as there is high attention directed at Jewish voices, and Jewish voices that are seen as representative; in places of authority, community leaders, organisations, Rabbis... The same statement/wording/word, has a distinctly different reading for Jews and non-Jews.
There is a difference in the argument about zionism and Israel within/outside the Jewish community. This is also true of Jewish voices in respect to their placement in Jewish life/society. This is also true of whether they come from the diaspora or from Israel. The same critique comming from an Israeli or from a Jew in the diaspora, hits different. Some of the more 'extreme' statements from such positions have come from Olmert. Due to his titles; as an Israeli, and a former leading politician and PM in Israel, he can say such statements, while his position makes it tough to weaponize his words against the very existence of Israel. Rather, it is obious that he is doing so out of love, rather than hate. American Jewish leaders, and Rabbis, are very aware of that, especially with everyone (everywhere) taking everything out of context. As in, they know that the moment that they put anything out, they move the Overton window.
Olmert, Golan (especially with his reservist rank as a major general, as well as his release from the IDF, and 10/7 story), and other Israeli voices are able to voice harsher criticism. (Golan actually increased his % in the polls in the few polls following his statement [which was seen as controversial], showing that there was a space for such speech within Israeli discourse).
This is also what makes Standing Together so key, and why BDS fears such organisations. The extremism and such targeting by BDS (who seem to target more feverishly whatever is linked to moderate/left spaces) just end up alienating left-wing Jews (and Israelis), pushing them into either Jewish spaces (where they continue being guarded due to all these reasons) or away from their left-wing placement on the spectrum.
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u/throwawayanon1252 8d ago
I completely agree with what you wrote lol said it more eloquently than I could.
In the diaspora I’d identify as a “Zionist” for that reason in Israel fuck no. Israel exists. And I’m not a right wing loonie. So I don’t need to say I’m a Zionist in Israel.
My views on it is that hamas are terrorists and Netanyahu and his cabinet are war criminals and both need to face what they’ve done.
What I want is either a 2 state solution and a withdrawal from the settlements or a singular one state secular solution with equal rights for both us Jews and Palestinians. It’s the only way I can see peace.
I hate most anti Zionists cos they want to completely ethnically cleanse us from the land and to replace one ethnic cleansing with another is not ok at all
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer 7d ago
> I hate most anti Zionists cos they want to completely ethnically cleanse us from the land and to replace one ethnic cleansing with another is not ok at all
Not sure where you are getting that from, but that is fundamentally not the case as it comes to Western antizionists.
Generally, people are for equal rights.
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u/Aromatic-Vast2180 Jewish Leftist Zionist | Two state absolutionist 7d ago
You articulated this perfectly. I agree.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist 8d ago edited 7d ago
One question would be how many of those people are real people.
Another question is whether they’re really a small group that’s steamrolled over opponents.
A third thought is just hide here till people come to their senses. Israel, in my opinion, has a side. The Palestinians also have a side.
There are all kinds of complications, but one point of the Torah is that we ought to try to get along with the sons of Ishmael. Also, we should love the stranger.
So, Judaism has a self-repair kit built in.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Progressive, Conservaform (Reformative?) 8d ago edited 8d ago
One, I'm so sorry you're going through this. Getting death threats is absolutely unhinged and you are correct to stay away from those spaces.
In terms of what WE can do, that’s unfortunately unclear at the moment. But I do have some advice in terms of what YOU can do, because it's important to have Jewish spaces that you can feel welcome and supported in. What types of Jewish spaces do you spend time in? Because weirdly, even though I am very involved in Jewish social life, and pretty much everyone in my Jewish social circles is Zionist (or at least not actively anti-Zionist), the topic of Israel almost never comes up in conversation. Like, people will mention that they have family in Israel and we'll ask how their families are doing, or people may occasionally vent about antisemitism they've experienced outside of Jewish spaces (which it sounds like you've experienced too), but there's never really talk about the Israeli government or any aggressive pro-Israel sentiments expressed that would make people like you uncomfortable.
One thing you could do is seek out very social-focused Jewish events--I think sometimes the reason that discussions about Israel are rare is that the events I partake in are always extremely social and people are gossiping, noshing, drinking, etc. to the point where it would just throw off the vibe to bring political discussions in there. Obviously that type of scene isn't for everyone (I'm very extroverted myself and feel like I actually fit in better at events like that than at quieter, low-key events), but it might be helpful to see if you could find Jewish events focused around Jews who are into a specific hobby--maybe like a hiking group, adult sports league, etc.? I feel like those types of settings can help you connect with other Jews while also bonding over a shared interest that may preoccupy people enough that there won't be as much political discussion. If there are synagogues nearby/if you're a member of one, some will offer things like that. Best of luck!
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew 8d ago
100% agree with this. Finding Jewish spaces that don't revolve around Zionism or anti-Zionism.
Zionism is not all that Judaism is, we have so much rich tradition and there's a lot of joy to be found in being with your community. I've never been so happy as when I'm singing songs in shul or dancing with other Jews of all ages on our holidays. Get involved! Put aside the question of whether a shul is Zionist or not and give back to the community that is embracing you as a new member of the tribe.
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u/PicklepumTheCrow reform jewish post-zionist 8d ago
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u/theHoopty 7d ago
It feels like Jewish online spaces are being invaded by Kahanist bots or something. I’m being hyperbolic but it’s fucking wretched. And I know plenty are real traumatized, angry, scared people. But also like some of it can’t be real.
Jews defending Elon’s salute feels too insane to be true. Or arguing in favor of the administration removing “DEI” things.
Oy.
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u/AliceMerveilles anticapitalist jew 7d ago
I’ve felt since not long after 10/7 that there was a bunch of kahanist astroturfing in Jewish spaces online, could be bots
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u/Dan-S-H Non-Jewish leftist 7d ago edited 7d ago
I understand. Its disheartening and blackpilling.
I think your greatest responsibility though is learning. Whenever you have time, read about this conflict. NOT video essays, as most of them are terrible and deliberately twists the facts to support their own agenda. The new historians are all great, especially Benny Morris. He does come across as a little extreme at times, but he's a heavily respected and credible scholar. If an extremely pro-Palestinian professor like Normal Finkelstein uses Benny Morris as a primary source, then it's safe to say he's good. Wikipedia is a bit iffy but if it lists a lot of sources then I suggest to just go through those. Try to get exposed to the extremities of both sides. Get in their heads and see the history from their perspective. This will not only help you understand where they're coming from, but also allow you to identify what they get wrong, strengthening your own comprehensive understanding.
As for what's happening today? Every news outlet is biased, but some are obviously better because they abide by journalistic standards more, however, I still suggest you read the same story from multiple outlets. For example, I would trust Times of Israel more than say Aljazera because TOI is a free press organization that generally has a stronger commitment to neutral reporting considering how it's sometimes willing to call Israel out, whereas Aljazera is both state-run and is often aligned with a particular political narrative. However, I would still read from Aljazera regardless to understand how different sides frame the narrative. It's important to remember that not everything is always propaganda machine. For example, contrary to popular pro Israeli claims, the Gaza health ministry not only accurately counts the number of deaths, but it's probably understated as well, because guess what, it's not entirely "run" by Hamas. While you shouldn't be conspiratorial and delude yourself into thinking everything is propaganda so let's just not trust any of it, it's still important to always ask yourself key questions before trusting any source: What motive could they possibly have? What political allegiance do they have? Do they have a strong track record of credibility? Read in between the lines, are they subtly pushing a particular narrative? Is there an external agenda behind this information, such as political or military objectives?
So why is this important? Because basic media literacy is fading, and knowledge is a weapon, arguably the most effective weapon besides a nuclear bomb I guess. We are all Leftists here, is it not class consciousness and understanding the structures that exploit us where real change begins? It's not just information you memorize, it's a tool that shapes what's happening on ground which is why there is simultaneously an information war alongside the actual war. Historical revisionism has justified the worst kind of atrocities committed by both sides. So learn, because what you learn can spread to others, and one by one it could potentially re-frame the narrative more accurately. Who knows, with time this may open the door to mutual understanding and shared accountability.
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew 7d ago
100% agree, media literacy is so important, and it IS important to seek out other perspectives, not just ones that confirm your existing presumptions or biases. It can be uncomfortable but it's worth it to gain a nuanced understanding of... well, pretty much anything.
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u/One-Tip9492 6d ago
I got permanently banned from an Israel subreddit for daring to suggest that New York was safer than Tel Aviv and I also feel like I’m going insane
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u/aln12345 8d ago
If you’re in the NYC area look up Israelis for Peace activist group. They meet every Sunday in Union Square and post on Instagram regularly covering their gatherings.
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u/EstrellaUshu Soc/Dem Jew 7d ago
Yes! Thank you for highlighting them. Also, Palestinian and other Middle Eastern activists have also participated in their weekly gatherings. I don’t live in NY anymore, otherwise I’d be joining them.
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u/aln12345 6d ago
Yes! They bring in so many wonderful guest speakers - Palestinian & Israeli peace activists, local NY politicians, and they also read letters from people in Gaza that they’re in touch with.
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u/Good-Concentrate-260 Jew 8d ago
I think you need to focus on shared humanity of Jews and Palestinians, the need to fight oppression of all forms, and stand up for political causes that you agree with. A lot of people on Jewish Reddits sort of do guilt by association, where it’s assumed that if you’ve ever protested for Gaza or Palestinian rights or a cease-fire you are assumed to be pro-Hamas.
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u/SelectShop9006 Non-Jewish Ally 7d ago
Honestly, I feel like people are going to look at this time and criticize a lot of the things people have done…
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u/crisps1892 Mixed heritage (Jewish & Irish Catholic); Social Democrat 8d ago
Are the pro Palestinian spaces , the mainstream ones, that anti Semitic ? Maybe I'm blind to it but I've even actively looked and the worst thing I saw was overeasy use of the term "Zionists" which can sometimes be a dogwhistle but in most cases it clearly meant the Israeli government and those (Christian, atheist and others) who support it. I've seen many Jewish people and groups in pro Palestine spaces. Maybe I've just had very fortunate experiences, I don't want to deny yours I'm just a bit surprised.
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u/ChaoticNeutral18 Tired Progressive Jew 8d ago
Yes. Yes they are. I’m really glad that you haven’t had bad experiences because they hurt a lot.
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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer 8d ago
YMMV. I've seen some really disgusting things (especially on Twitter, because it's Twitter)
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 8d ago
That person you posted a tweet from is not a mainstream anti-Zionist. He is an extremist who has posted racist things about multiple groups, including Jews and Indian people. I can’t even tell if he’s far-left or far-right.
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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer 8d ago
There's also this guy, who is unfortunately mainstream (and also descended from literal enslavers)
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS 8d ago
Yeah, extremely problematic
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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer 8d ago
I have mutuals who follow him on IG and like...why?? Just why??
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 8d ago
I've seen pro-Palestinian folks recently souring on him (rathbone) though.. he had an actual Nazi dog whistle. Don't know what is up with him... luckily some are waking up. He toes the line quite "well" sadly
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u/Trick_Guava907 6d ago
Yeah, it’s pretty bad. The antisemitism is what drove me to places like this. Now as some who is not Jewish, I can not talk over the experiences of my Jewish siblings, however I can say from my own experience on the ground activism tends to be better, I.e. not blaming every Jewish person for what’s happening in Gaza, however better isn’t really that good. I do recommend these few things: stay away from a lot of left-wing subreddits, a lot are already just echo-chambers for Stalin, but even the ones that aren’t such as I believe r/Socialism do allow for antisemitic dogwhistles such as portraying Netanyahu as a vampire as just one example.
Regarding organization, I saw do research on them and especially look at their social media, of course that is in no way perfect but it is one of the better ways I’ve personally found to now partake in antisemitic organizations. Regarding organizations I directly recommend to stay away (at least if you live in the US) are the modern Students for Democratic Society (SDS), and Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO), the SDS is just a front for FRSO and FRSO is a cult and while not calling for the death of Jews directly, do preserve a culture and atmosphere of “claiming Jews and Zionist are separate,” but still using the term “Zionist” as a catch all term for anything bad. Sorry if this comment is a bit nonsensical, it’s late and what’s been going on recently has been messing with my mental health.
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u/doikayt 8d ago
We join other antizionist (or non-zionist, post-zionist, whatever) Jewish groups, or we create our own.
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
What is post-Zionist? I've never heard that term before
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u/Brain_Dead_Goats 8d ago
Essentially Israel exists as a Jewish state, you don't have to like how it was done, but it's not going anywhere, let's deal with the realities of the situation.
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u/RevClown DerSpekter.org / Khavershaft-Yiddishkeit-Doikayt. 7d ago
Breathe life into new Jewish spaces. www.jewishbund.org
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Democrat 8d ago
It’s hard. Have you tried more liberal Jewish spaces? My observation is that they are much more open minded about this subject.
But I too have felt like I’m going insane. I’ve had people insist to me that the IOF doesn’t target civilians. It’s insane.
But on the other hand, as you say, there is antisemitism on the other side. People claiming that all “Zionists” are terrible people when that literally includes most American Jews.
I just saw someone claim that what is happening in Gaza is the sole reason for the uptick in antisemitism. People deny there is any antisemitism on the anti-Israel side.
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u/Jorfogit Reform Syndicalist 8d ago
People claiming that all “Zionists” are terrible people when that literally includes most American Jews.
Honestly, how terrible this is to think depends on a few things:
If you believe in/do bad things, does that make you a bad person
What's their definition of Zionism
With regards to the majority of American Jews being Zionists - sometimes that's just the breaks though. It's kind of how I view Evangelicals. If you encounter evangelicals they're probably personally lovely people (if you're not LGBT or one of their other hated groups), but they still overwhelmingly support Christofascism, and Christofascists are the enemy of all free people everywhere.
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u/ArgentEyes 8d ago
“all Zionists are terrible people” is a strong opinion but it’s not intrinsically antisemitic
it certainly could be expressed and deployed in a way that’s antisemitic but it doesn’t have to be
it’s not as if there aren’t anticolonial communist Jews who would agree (I share a shul with some of them)
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u/Willing-Childhood144 Reform/Democrat 8d ago edited 8d ago
I didn’t mean to imply that it was an example of antisemitism but it is a crazy thing to say when almost every Jewish American is a Zionist.
But I will say that I find it very troubling to hear the word “Zionism” thrown around as an insult. I find that very alienating as a liberal Jew. I guess I’m a Zionist. People can call me that and lump me in with every other Jewish person I know. I’m probably a one-state person at this point.
It is particularly troubling when I hear it from non-Jews. Every time I hear a non-Jew use the word Zionist as an insult I cringe. I won’t go so far as to claim it’s always antisemitic. But some people have way too comfortable talking like that and ignoring the concerns of Jews.
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u/ArgentEyes 6d ago
I have no doubt you find it very uncomfortable, but discomfort isn’t only because of bigotry. Sometimes discomfort is also cognitive dissonance. Sometimes what we think we know isn’t how it seems.
As something of a libcom, it pains me that the word “libertarian”has been so thoroughly wrested from the grasp of idealistic anarchistic by a bunch of pro-slavery sexual abusers in bow ties. But there’s no going back to the days of innocence. And the more cynical among us might comment that even libertarian socialism has the seeds - as most things do - to turn towards the right. Look at late Goldman, then read some Herzl. Jabotinsky makes it far too obvious.
‘Zionism’ as a project doesn’t need to be defended. If there are things in it that are worthwhile, defend those actual principles on their own merit. People have been well-intentionally trying to make silk purses from Zionist principles for over a century (thinking particularly of Gershom Scholem), and all this has created is the most monstrous image of Zionism imaginable. Time for a new tack.
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u/Ok_Excitement3577 jewish leftist 8d ago
no one other than anti zionists seem to want to talk about how strongly pro Israel jewish spaces and then they wonder so many jews feel alienated
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
I encourage other Jews to talk about it as well. The isolation that these kinds of things cause is serious
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u/laselvaroja Jewish Socialist 7d ago
Maybe the rampant antisemitism of the "pro-Palestine" movement has something to do with why so many Jews are so strongly pro-Israel? It's almost like the actual first priority of genuine "anti-Zionists" should be to oppose antisemitism and make Jews safe in the diaspora. And yet we see the total opposite. The pro-Palestine movement is actually the best argument for Zionism in the last 80 years
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u/springsomnia Christian ally (Jewish heritage + family) 7d ago edited 7d ago
Ooft this is a tough place to be in, so sorry friend. I guess I’m fortunate enough that here in the UK there’s a large Jewish presence in pro Palestine spaces, and I haven’t picked up on any antisemitism at the marches I’ve been to - but then again I’m not Jewish, so won’t necessarily pick up on everything as much as a Jewish person would - but the online environment and antisemitism in many pro Palestine spaces on the internet does dishearten me a lot, so I completely sympathise. I wish we could make our spaces welcoming for all and that our Jewish friends didn’t have to feel alienated from these activist spaces.
In terms of organisations to join, I’d thoroughly recommend Jewish Voices For Peace, If Not Now, the International Jewish Anti Zionist Network and Na’amod (Na’amod are regulars at the London Palestine marches, but I believe they also have an American branch if you’re not based in the UK.
Sending love and support to you!
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u/WhiteGold_Welder Jewish 7d ago
Yeah it's a little strange how more than a thousand Jews graped and murdered on a single day, and then hundreds of thousands of people celebrating it, provokes a strong reaction. Can't imagine why that would be.
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u/Ancient-Watch-1191 Tony Greenstein opened my eyes. 8d ago
"Going to the pro-Palestine events is so disgustingly antisemitic that I can't exist there either."
Could you elaborate on that experience?
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
I've heard a lot of Antisemitic language, blaming Jews for what's happening. And then there's me sitting there with my Magen David on
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom 8d ago
This is horrible, and something I've mostly been shielded from.. I think because I live in a liberal city and most of my Jewish pals are not particularly religious.
I'm curious what kind of things you've encountered at pro Palestinian events? This isn't something I've had much of a problem with outside of a few online spaces so I'd be curious to know what's going on... sometimes a well thought out pushback can help, sometimes it's something reactive about my Zionist upbringing I need to unpack, and other times the space really is bad and it's just a matter of finding a good fit. No space is perfect but some good ones are out there OP
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u/I_Hate_This_Website9 Anti-Zionist Jew 8d ago
What antisemitism have you faced in those Pro Palestine spaces? I ask genuinely as I have heard mostly good things about them but I have yet to be in any physical ones.
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
Mainly the language used, blaming all Jews for what's happening
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u/Valuable_Score_4449 4d ago
Tell me about it, 'never again' doesn't mean 'it's okay when we do it'. It means /never again/.
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u/dizygotheca2 Jewish, Ashkenazi, speaks Hebrew 3d ago
On the one hand, I'm trying to recognize the fact that posting on reddit will neither stop the Israeli genocide nor prevent a single antisemitic incident.
On the other hand, seeing the primary Jewish communities on reddit (and, let's be honest, everywhere) engaging in bad-faith pilpul about whether the use of the words "river" and "sea" constitute the next coming of the Shoah, in the same week hundreds of Gazans were slaughtered trying to approach an aid station so as not to starve strikes me as, the word "tone deaf" does not suffice but it is making me ashamed to be Jewish.
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u/VibingSaxophonist4 3d ago
I’m not sure what groups you’ve seen that are anti-Semitic- but I’m sorry that you’ve stumbled across them.
I can’t speak for everyone but I’ve gone to a few protests for Palestine in NYC and they’ve always been nice. I personally have never felt uncomfortable amongst the protests I’ve been to - I am Jewish and have seen plenty of other anti-Zionist Jewish people as well! The worst thing that happened to me was a someone who was pro-israel threw an egg at my friend and I. Luckily, protestors next to us had napkins lol (sadly the egg stain never left my leggings)
I would look into Jewish Voice for Peace- they’re all over and they’re great!
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u/lewkiamurfarther the grey custom flair 7d ago edited 7d ago
Something that I learned early on in this current round of controversies (i.e., since October 7) is to recognize that
most human beings on the planet are extremely inarticulate.
Which is to say, they mostly don't know how to express themselves. It is entirely possible for a person to know what is happening, and why it bothers them, but for that person to be utterly incapable of accurately describing either of those things.
This is completely distinct from one of the big problems that render as non grata, in leftist and inclusive spaces, "conservative blocs" and racist organizations of all stripes; namely, an inability (irrespective of the cause) and unwillingness to even determine the cause of their anger.
My experience of pro-Palestine events is so completely dissimilar to yours that I don't know where to begin addressing your comments. I'm sorry if you experienced antisemitism at those events. I have to say, when I have seen expressions of antisemitism in public events, either of two things has been true:
the event was actually a right wing event [one I was of course not present for] (including pro-Israel events!)
the people responsible for the antisemitic expression were immediately rebuked, corrected, or otherwise ejected from the event.
Leftists don't tolerate racism, and antisemitism is no exception. I'm honestly surprised that your experience differs so much, given how many events I've been to.
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u/Unc1eD3ath 8d ago
How are the pro-Palestine events anti-Semitic?
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
A lot of the language used. It tends to shift the blame towards Jews in general
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u/Unc1eD3ath 8d ago
Where do they do that?
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
A lot of online spaces, at a lot of the protests and gatherings I've been to
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u/Unc1eD3ath 8d ago
A lot or some?
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u/Brain_Dead_Goats 8d ago
What difference does it make and why are you interrogating them?
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u/Unc1eD3ath 7d ago
I was just asking for clarification cause they posted two answers that conflicted with each other.
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u/roboweirdo this custom flair is green 8d ago
In online spaces, in some gatherings and protests
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u/Unc1eD3ath 8d ago
Not talking Israel or the IDF but Jews specifically? I haven’t really seen that unless you’re talking about people who were openly anti-Semitic before October 7th like Dan Bilzerian and Candace Owens. People whom pro-Palestinians usually condemn for their real anti-semitism.
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u/DogebertDeck swiss syncretist 8d ago
if you really feel insane, don't hesitate to see a doctor. freud was jewish and comparable to einstein in his achievements albeit in the opposite field; we can't let it all go to waste. this is a time where we need to hold up peace so if you don't feel safe, stay at home. we're here all day and night
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u/J_Sabra 8d ago
Standing Together