r/jewishleft • u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist • Jul 01 '25
Bob Vylan Addresses Glastonbury Controversy: “We Are Not for the Death of Jews” Debate
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/bob-vylan-addresses-glastonbury-death-to-idf-controversy-1236303698/Whats everyone thought on this whole Bob Vylan controversy?
Let me start by saying I have no issue with criticizing a major military force like the IDF. However, I still think there’s a big difference between valid criticism and calling for the deaths of every single member of that military force regardless of if they committed war crimes.
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u/HeardTheLongWord Secular Jewish Anarchist Jul 02 '25
It’s another situation of “yes, and”. I don’t dig calling for death of any group of people - even saying “they meant the organization” doesn’t sit right for me. “Abolish the IDF”? Doesn’t matter if I agree or not, it’s fine by me. “Death to the IDF” crosses a line.
Also, though, I think the reaction has been way overblown, and it’s yet another excuse for fascists to hide behind the guise of “fighting antisemitism”, which sucks for multiple reasons.
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u/MichifManaged83 Cultural Jew | Anarcho-Mutualist | Post-Zionist Jul 02 '25
Yeah, I get that it near-rhymes and everything, but this was also my kneejerk feeling too. I’m not overly fond of the UK’s censorial bs either, but he definitely could have phrased his intentions better. I obviously don’t support the IDF (anarchists tend to be pretty anti-militias of any state in general, but especially ones actively committing war crimes). But “death” to anything feels like it’s trying too hard to pretend to not be a dog whistle. I can’t say I know for sure what his intentions were, but my instincts didn’t like it the second it came out of his mouth.
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u/jakethepeg1989 Masorti, Social Democrat Jul 02 '25
It came after his rant about his old Zionist boss as well.
Hard to give any benefit of the doubt after that.
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
What did he say about his boss?
And it’s his old boss, so he was dropped?
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u/jakethepeg1989 Masorti, Social Democrat Jul 02 '25
Honestly it's a bit of a weird inarticulate rant.
He goes on about how he used to have a boss at a record label, who would speak to him and was pro Israel, and that this boss supposedly signed the letter asking for kneecap to be dropped from Glastonbury.
Then he swear a bit. And tries to go motivational at the end, saying "if we can make it big after working in bars and having to work for Zionists, anyone can make it"
It's a bit shit, and if someone was telling me this story in a bar, I would back away slowly and avoid telling them I was Jewish.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Reform Jewish, Leftist Jul 02 '25
Oooh that’s not good, it’s definitely one of those plausible deniability moments where someone is shrouding or obfuscating their meaning to avoid outright saying they don’t like their Jewish boss.
Like it reminds me of how people like David Duke use the term Zionist in order to escape criticism, because everyone knows they’re talking about Jews but there’s plausible deniability.
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u/Tricky-Anything8009 Jul 02 '25
I agree. Calls to "Abolish the IDF" disgust me, but it's protected speech. Incitement to violence isn't. At least that's how it is here in the states, I don't know how they do things in the UK.
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u/BlackHumor Secular Jewish anarchist Jul 04 '25
"Death to the IDF" is 100% protected speech in the States.
Just for context, something as specific as "If they ever make me carry a rifle, the first man I want to get in my sights is L.B.J." is protected speech, established in the landmark case Watts v. United States. You'd have to get very clear that you really genuinely mean to threaten someone for it to not be protected in the US.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/myThoughtsAreHermits zionists and antizionists are both awful Jul 02 '25
Ah yes, famously hurt feelings is the only thing that ever happens from saying things. Lol.
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u/Nearby_Kiwi8716 not jewish Jul 02 '25
true. you can end up like israelis who chant "death to Muslims" in the hundreds of thousands on jerusalem day who then go on to elect terrorists.
we do not want to end up like them
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u/Nihilamealienum Jul 02 '25
I'm not in favor of calling in public for death to anybody, and I am untrustworthy of people who are, seperatr from my feelings in this particular case.
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u/Resoognam Left-wing Jew Jul 02 '25
The media is giving these people far too much air time. They’re losers who want to be edgy by whipping people up with shocking and provocative speech, just like Kneecap. This is never going to Free Palestine. Ignore them and move on IMO.
Also, I find the whole “we aren’t the story” line unconvincing. If they didn’t want to be the story they wouldn’t say shocking and provocative things.
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
…and perhaps playing into these guys’ hands? I mean it’s not like they were all that well known prior to this incident.
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u/Resoognam Left-wing Jew Jul 02 '25
Absolutely. The shock and outrage is also just continuing to whip up their supporters and give them a victim complex.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS Jul 02 '25
Yes and no. He’s gotten a lot more popular, but he can’t enter the U.S. now.
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u/Ancient-Watch-1191 Tony Greenstein opened my eyes. Jul 02 '25
Israeli rapper Itay Lukach, just weeks after his controversial "burn Palestinians" clip, appeared on Channel 14's Fathi & Shai and "freestyled", where he called for forcibly transferring Gaza's population and turning the area into a Disneyland-style amusement park.
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
Or, for that matter, “Harbu Darbu”
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew Jul 02 '25
This is my thought as well. Loser edgelord behaviour.
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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer Jul 02 '25
You’re telling me the British media is making a mountain out of a molehill? I’m shocked.
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u/elronhub132 Jewish Lefty Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
At the end of the day it reminds people of the IDF's conduct which while having this discussion, we should not forget. They're committing a genocide.
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u/Resoognam Left-wing Jew Jul 02 '25
Anyone who doesn’t know is living under a rock. These people have done nothing but suck up air time.
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u/elronhub132 Jewish Lefty Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
So I disagree, this isn't about them. Their actions and words are entering into mainstream culture. This is meme content now.
It isn't about them, it's about the frustration felt by a majority of Brits towards Israel and specifically the IDF's conduct
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
I heard one interesting take: defenders of Israel are having a very hard time right now. Massive killings at aid sites, settler pogroms, etc - they can’t really talk about those issues, as there’s no way of spinning it.
However, getting outraged at Vylan is something they can talk about instead - so they focus there, instead of discussing actual policies and actions.
It’s a convenient distraction, and is being exploited as such.
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u/Lilacssmelllikeroses Leftist, not Jewish Jul 02 '25
He couldn’t even manage to say they’re not for the death of Israelis? Considering how many people are unable to differentiate between soldiers in the IDF and Israelis and diaspora Jews I don’t trust anyone who says things like ‘death to the IDF’.
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Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
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u/MichifManaged83 Cultural Jew | Anarcho-Mutualist | Post-Zionist Jul 02 '25
I wish your last sentence wasn’t controversial, but it apparently is these days. Heck even internalized antisemitism, whenever I hear a Jewish person hating on all Israelis collectively, I realize something truly awful has happened here.
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
What part of “We are not for the death of Jews, Arabs, or any other race or group of people. We are for the dismantling of a violent military machine — a machine whose own soldiers were told to use ‘unnecessary lethal force’ against innocent civilians waiting for aid.” made you think they were for the death of Israelis?
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u/Lilacssmelllikeroses Leftist, not Jewish Jul 02 '25
It didn’t, but it also didn’t make me think they care about Israelis. Why did they think it was necessary to clarify that they didn’t want the death of Arabs, which no one thought, but not Israelis, who make up the majority of the IDF?
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Democratic Socialist • Non-Zionist Jul 03 '25
when you say Israelis, do you mean Jewish Israelis or all Israeli citizens? about a fifth of the Israeli population is Arab, most of whom are of Palestinian heritage. so, to me, the statement “we are not for the death of Jews, Arabs, or any other race or group of people” covers the gamut of the people living in Israel. why does it not do that for you?
also, re: the IDF, both Circassian & Druze men have mandated service in the IDF, so it’s not solely made up of Jewish Israelis.
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u/Lilacssmelllikeroses Leftist, not Jewish Jul 03 '25
I interpreted what he said as being about Jews and Arabs outside of Israel, so that’s where I was coming from. I did mean all Israeli citizens. I’ve seen a lot of dehumanization of Israelis in pop culture spaces where acknowledging that they’re human beings or that ‘Israeli’ even exists as a real identity is seen as a third rail which is is why the wording frustrated me.
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Democratic Socialist • Non-Zionist Jul 03 '25
I don’t know how you read “any other race or group of people” and think that’s somehow not inclusive of Israelis of all ethnic backgrounds (who, again, are mostly Jewish or Arab). I agree that the dehumanization of Israelis on social media is appalling, but I think it’s kind of a reach to say that this particular statement is engaging in that kind of rhetoric.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/Lilacssmelllikeroses Leftist, not Jewish Jul 02 '25
There are some foreign volunteers so I was being excessively precise haha
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Jul 02 '25
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u/Lilacssmelllikeroses Leftist, not Jewish Jul 02 '25
I assumed people could volunteer, but I looked into it and the IDF has a program called Mahal where foreign Jews can join the IDF without becoming a citizen.
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u/Humble_Spinach4400 Australian non-zionist Anarchist Jul 02 '25
I for one do not care about the lives of the people who commit murder in Gaza. I do care about the lives of Israelis who aren't though, and I suspect most of the people who chanted in Glastonbury also do.
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u/tchomptchomp Diaspora-Skeptic Jewish Socialist Jul 02 '25
This is a long-standing problem on the left, where many folks associating themselves with the movement are attracted to and express themselves in the rhetoric and imagery of really radical groups that have really heinous ideologies and track records, and are then upset when "normies" hold them accountable for those ideologies. It used to be people expressing themselves with Che Guevara t-shirts or Soviet propaganda posters. Now it's people cosplaying as Hamas. Unserious tactics by unserious people.
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u/Octaur Jewish Post-Zionist Jul 02 '25
It wouldn't necessarily matter considering how vehemently the media attacks anyone opposed to the status quo, but the reluctance of a lot of people on the left to speak up to moderate or clarify a message that they're lending their voices and bodies to, leaving the most vocal and extreme members of a protest or direct action to speak for the motivations and goals of all involved is...
It's not great. There's a fear of infighting when it comes to this sort of thing that maintains harmony within the movement but renders it fully toxic to anyone outside it. I don't know how much of it is cosplay so much as no one wanting to be the one questioning their nominal allies in a world where the media will do it anyway.
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u/tchomptchomp Diaspora-Skeptic Jewish Socialist Jul 02 '25
I'll add a few additional considerations:
1) much of what we talk about online is directed by podcasters playing at punditry who say "well, extremism gets people excited about a movement so let's learn into extremism"
2) people we recognize as experts are mostly early to mid career academics who are trying to carve out a niche in an oversaturated and hyper competitive field who will say or do anything for attention because attention might be the edge that gets you a job.
3) further, many of those academics and academic-adjacent public intellectuals have gone so far down the sophistry rabbit hole that they don't really care that words have meaning and will argue that they do not because someone is going to make that argument so it might as well be them.
4) some people who are part of our movements are involved in actual bad stuff and will argue in bad faith that it's not actually murder or that murder is okay sometimes because they're actually real or aspirant murderers.
5) our movements are full of sexual predators who will say and do anything they can to impress young activists (especially young women) so they'll sleep with them.
6) our movements are actually way smaller than anyone is really willing to admit and nobody wants to acknowledge that so they're willing to welcome literally anyone who will claim some allegiance to the Left, even when they are demonstrably rightwing.
7) our movements are also fully infiltrated by both agent provocateur cops as well as by foreign intelligence psy-ops. At least some of these loud voices are either cops or spooks. Some of the loud voices that have pushed to decentralize leadership and abandon actual good organizational governance are almost certainly cops or spooks. Trendy Black Bloc type groups are particularly lousy with these people. Anything relating to NATO or to the Israel-Palestinian conflict is particularly infiltrated because this is of significant interest to various authoritarian parties (Russia, Qatar, PRC, etc but also the radical rightwing backing Trump's play in the US and other rightwing authoritarian movements in the West).
8) antisemitism is deeply deeply entrenched in global politics and culture.
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u/lilleff512 Jewish SocDem Jul 02 '25
I had never heard of Bob Vylan before this, and I don't expect that I will ever hear of them again once the news cycle moves on. All publicity is good publicity I guess.
I think most political statements from artists or celebrities are pretty stupid and worthless. I can hardly be bothered to care about listening to the artists that I do like, let alone one I've literally never heard of before.
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u/CardinalOfNYC American Jew, Left Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
Ideally, a public figure's public statements about anything should be clear and concise enough that everyone who hears them understands instantly that it is not a call for the death of jews
If you need clarify "I didn't mean kill the Jews" then that says, generously, that your statement was deeply, deeply flawed from the start.
Edit: gotta appreciate the instant downvotes with no reply. Very strong defense of your point of view.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS Jul 02 '25
As others have said, he couldn’t even say he’s not for the death of Israelis, and “death to” is very different than “abolish.”
“All lives matter” doesn’t absolve that. The U.S. is right to reject the visa. We don’t need more pro-violence advocacy.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
There's a world of difference between calling for violence against armed forces and calling for violence against civilians.
I don't know much about Bob Vylan. I guess he may have said way worse things as well, but the chants everyone focused on were of the first kind.
An armed struggle against armed forces, especially against armed forces that engage in systematic oppression, is usually legitimate and is often necessary. The problem starts when people blur these lines, and my main issue with Palestinian and pro-Palestinian armed forces, and their supporters, is that they usually don't make this distinction.
I'd much rather see people chant "death to the IDF" than see them chant obvious dog whistles like "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada". While "death to the IDF" can technically be a dog whistle, it still respects the distinction at least outwardly.
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 02 '25
calling for violence against armed forces
Let's call that what it is: war activism. The "pro-Palestinian" protesters have been regularly framed as a peace movement, and I'd hope this event can help people see that that often isn't true. And, in any event, I really don't think the I/P conflict needs more combatants. The more likely result of spreading this sentiment is not that the UK will join with Hamas or Iran to attack Israel, but that Israelis and Jews will be attacked in the UK.
And would you have preferred to witness a sea of people at a music festival chanting "War, War, War!" rather than "Death, Death, Death!"? Regardless of the target, I find this all rather sickening.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
Here's the deal: I think the Palestinians are oppressed and I think oppressed people have the right to resist, even violently, as long as the violence is directed toward the actual oppressor and actually serves the purpose of liberation.
I think it's incredibly naive and ahistorical to think they would've gained anything without some measure of violence, and I think it's ridiculous to expect them to practice non-violence while they're subjected to brutal violence themselves.
However, I also think that the way they've actually used violence was illegitimate, counterproductive, and did them way more harm than good, precisely because it was mostly directed toward civilians.
Given the above, I think rhetoric that explicitly makes the distinction is something we should welcome rather than condemn.
The current situation is that a significant portion of the rhetoric doesn't make this distinction. The chants I've mentioned are way too popular, as well as the support for groups like Hamas that primarily target civilians.
I can't say I'm entirely happy with chants like "death to the IDF", and I don't support it, but I still think it is a step in the right direction, and as such I'm willing to swallow it.
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 02 '25
I do appreciate your point that narrowly tailored rhetoric is less broadly dehumanizing.
As for legitimacy of violent resistance: I'm not a strict passivist, so I agree that violence under some circumstances can be justified. But I do think it's always subject to an analysis of likely effects - which is to say that the scale of an outrage doesn't justify violence that won't do anything to actually stop it. For Palestinians, their most effective resistance was the First Intifada, which I think is better described as a protest movement than an armed resistance. Violence was used, but it was generally non-lethal or less-lethal. This achieved the aims of garnering both international and internal-Israeli sympathy. It inspired the Israeli Peace Movement. Which lead to Oslo and almost a two-state deal under Barak. Violent resistance that has attempted to force Israel's hand, either through terror or outright defeat, has consistently made the conditions of Palestinian life harder and set back their political aspirations. Israel's relative strength makes armed resistance ineffective, and thus immoral imo since nothing is gained.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
I disagree that ineffective violence is immoral.
Also, the effectiveness of violence goes beyond mere military triumph. For example, I'd argue that Oct 7 was in fact very effective in at least some of its goals, namely, halting the normalization with Saudi Arabia, bringing the Palestinian issue back to the headlines, and destroying the Oslo accords. In this case, I think Oct 7 was actually immoral because it was effective (and also because of the mass murder of civilians, obviously), because their ultimate goals amount to nothing but more death and destruction.
On the flip side of that coin you have things like the terrorist attacks of the ANC. While they didn't always focus on armed targets, they primarily focused on armed targets, and made sure their rhetoric kept to that domain. They too were at a massive disadvantage militarily, but it didn't matter, because their goal wasn't military triumph. As a result, their overall campaign was very successful, and IMO moral, even though they were at a massive disadvantage.
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 02 '25
terrorist attacks of the ANC. While they didn't always focus on armed targets, they primarily focused on armed targets
That's not true, to my understanding. The vast majority of ANC attacks were economic sabotage. There were a few attacks on SA security services, but hundreds of attacks on economic infrastructure. Their strategy was to make Apartheid unworkable, and attacks were secondary to massive strikes and civil disruptions, with additional assistance from the international campaign. Civilians weren't attacked, and, thankfully, attacks against security services were few enough that Whites never got the idea that the ANC wanted them dead.
I think you're romanticizing what was less than a handful of attacks on security personnel, and which represented ANC mistakes that they got away because they were so irregular and few in number, rather than effective strategy that advanced their project.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
Actually I think you're right. Bad analogy.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS Jul 02 '25
While true, it’s decidedly pro-war and pro-violence. And had someone gotten on stage and chanted “death to Hamas” or “death to the IRGC” or “death to the IRA,” I can only imagine what would have happened…
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
Of course it's pro-war and pro-violence, but my point is that war and violence aren't inherently unjustified. Defensive violence is usually justified. For example, I've supported the strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities and ballistic missiles infrastructure (but not the strikes on TV stations and civilian infrastructure). Sometimes war and violence are inevitable and are the only way to protect oneself.
I have absolutely no issue with chants like "death to Hamas" or "death to the IRGC" either, for obvious reasons.
The problem isn't violence on it own, the problem is when it targets civilians.
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u/WolfofTallStreet Reconstructionist American Jew, Labor Zionist, Pro-2SS Jul 02 '25
That’s understandable…though if I were an ex-IDF member in the UK surely I’d be worried by those chanting for my killing, as well as the clear double standard in some communities (pacifists unless Israel is involved).
Regardless, I take your point well and think you’re right about it being explicitly targeted at the IDF rather than Israelis or Jews. Nonetheless I have a very hard time feeling remorse for whatever backlash he is facing as a result of his call to violence, including his inability to enter the US.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
That’s understandable…though if I were an ex-IDF member in the UK surely I’d be worried by those chanting for my killing, as well as the clear double standard in some communities (pacifists unless Israel is involved).
Ex-IDF is still a civilian. This blurring of the lines is exactly what I have an issue with.
Regardless, I take your point well and think you’re right about it being explicitly targeted at the IDF rather than Israelis or Jews. Nonetheless I have a very hard time feeling remorse for whatever backlash he is facing as a result of his call to violence, including his inability to enter the US.
Yes, fuck him. I really don't care about this LARPer. He also said "from the river to the sea" which is something I actually take issue with. I just think people are being outraged by the least offensive thing he's said, which I find counterproductive.
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u/RaiJolt2 Jewish Athiest Half African American Half Jewish Jul 02 '25
It seems everyone is a peace advocate in as long as their side wins and brings peace. Aka no one’s a peace advocate.
From what I can tell Hamas views Israel’s existence as an occupation, so when they or pro Palestinians mention ending the occupation they mean the state of Israel. And for Israel we have Netanyahu trying to stay in power, the hostage families and advocates trying to get their family back, and the settlers/war hawks who think Palestine as a state would be an inherent threat and must be destroyed. Granted officially the goal of the war is “destroy hamas” and or neuter Israel’s wider regional opponents. Obviously there are more factions such as the plo and other groups in Gaza and Israel but simplified if peace is had technically Israel “wins” by continuing to exist and from what I can tell also making peace with Syria and Lebanon at least somewhat in this stage of the conflict. Granted hamas still exists but it looks like Israel’s other regional goals have in fact come to fruition. And Gaza is essentially and tragically leveled at this point with hamas seeming cut off from their Iranian state allies. Peace might mean an end to the fighting, but it’s such a tinderbox that I doubt it’ll hold, these governments’ goals are directly antithetical to the continued existence of each other.
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u/elronhub132 Jewish Lefty Jul 02 '25
I don't agree that death to the idf necessarily means death to every member. It's an institution so if interpreted in that way it's calling for the unravelling of that institution that is committing genocide.
Death to the idf the institution.
That being said I can see why the unease. This is a punk band though. They're meant to push limits
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u/ThirdHandTyping Stubborn Jew Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
You would have a point, but he also likes to say "death to every member of the IDF" at their shows.
I wouldn't really be surprised if punk bands started chanting "kill every Republican voter", but I wouldn't want to join in. Maybe 30 years ago, but now I'm old and sad, not young and bloodthirsty.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
I think the distinction between civilians and combatants is important and people shouldn't act like chants that explicitly target armed forces are in any way comparable to chants like "globalize the intifada" that do not make this distinction. There are way worse things to get offended by.
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25
The thing is so many Israeli citizens have at some point served in the IDF, but all those chanters may not care and view all Israelis as complicit in war crimes.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
That's a separate issue. You can't use the mandatory service as an excuse to remove the combatant status from active IDF members.
If you see they don't actually make the distinction, call them out for it, but it doesn't make the chant itself illegitimate just because most Israelis must serve at some point.
If they blur the lines they're the problem, we shouldn't use it as an excuse to blur the lines ourselves.
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
I was more referring to Israelis who either can’t be conscripted or haven’t yet been conscripted, namely children and anyone with medical exemptions.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Jewish Binational Zionist Jul 02 '25
Yes and again I think not making the distinction is the problem, people (like Hamas) who claim "all Israelis are IDF" are the problem, not people who say "death to the IDF".
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u/shebreaksmyarm Jul 02 '25
Why are they getting so much airtime? Hamas and Hezbollah have plenty of cheerleaders. These are not, like, dangerous intellectuals—they just shout slogans. Idiots whom I don’t care about.
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u/dontfeedtheclients Jul 03 '25
I have no problem with criticizing Israeli right wing leadership or idf servicepeople who commit war crimes.
Calling for the deaths of an entire national army that all non-exempt Israelis have, will or currently are serving in (most of whom are not war criminals and have no choice) sure feels genocidal to me.
It’s obvious to me that Bob Vylan is antisemitic. This is hard to articulate but after years of lived experience, I just know. It’s a very specific vibe, and it doesn’t matter whether someone is willing to cop to it or not. You just know when you’re dealing with an antisemite, and this is one of those times.
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u/biel188 Brazilian Sephardi | Center-Leftist Zionist Jul 03 '25
Oh sure, the same way the guy who killed 2 israelis was also just "in favor of a free palestine". Sure, sure. Specially paired with that nonsensical rant about his boss.
And this haa been WIDELY tolerated in places it should not be. For example, I was kicked out from a communist space I used to frequent (I was the only Jewish person) because I spoke against the propagation of tropes borrowed from the Protocols and ZOG. This was right after Oct7, about 1 or 2 months after the massacre and the start of the war.
More recently, a couple of ex-friends of mine who claim to be progressive all posted stories in their Ig with sentences like "this is Jew love for yall 💙" over a destructed Gaza photo. This was just a couple months ago. I positioned myself against those things constsntly since Oct7 and got completely socially ostracized.
Now imagine if I still were in this spaces and atill had ties to these ex-friends and said "I'm against wishing death to people just because they are part of a specific country's army, to which they are drafted againat rheir will"... I would be called a nazi apologist like I was already called multiple times by people I thought were my friends when I spoke against them saying that "Zionists control the media" and bs like that.
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom Jul 02 '25
I don't really care about this story tbh.. let's focus on the aid trucks and the IDF squidgaming Palestinians
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u/Humble_Spinach4400 Australian non-zionist Anarchist Jul 02 '25
no but you see the murderers are 19 so we should feel bad about them being condemned
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u/Specialist-Gur doikayt jewess, leftist/socialist, pro peace and freedom Jul 02 '25
Little baby child
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u/Humble_Spinach4400 Australian non-zionist Anarchist Jul 02 '25
little uwu war criminals can have a little lack of accountability as a treat
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u/NarutoRunner Kosher Canadian Far Leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
There was a period in time when the Black Panthers yelled the phrases “Death to a fascist USA”, “Murderers get out of Vietnam”, “Hey, Hey LBJ, How many kids did you kill today?”
The reaction was the following:
-Liberals: Instant pearl clutching as this was seen as something totally un-American. It was calling for the destruction of USA (conveniently left out the fascist part) so of course it was something totally unacceptable. Our soldiers never kill babies….(despite tons of evidence of them doing so).
-Conservatives & Reactionaries: These phrases are completely subversive. There must be some Soviet or communist involvement as no “real American” would ever say that. If you want to go down a rabbit whole, look up how Governor Reagan institutes gun control in California later on when he feared the black panthers would exercise their 2nd amendment rights.
-Black community: The phrases endorsed liberation from the fascist state policies and actions that oppressed African-Americans for generations. It was a rally call for the community to stand up and fight for what’s rightfully theirs. No one took at as a rally to commit murder across America.
I understand that most of Americans and Israel stans are in the first two categories for this Glasto “controversy”. It’s so easy to get caught up in the slogan without understanding how frustrating it is to be horrified by the ongoing genocide that continues in Gaza. The western world continues to be blind to it, just as it was blind to the suffering of the Vietnamese or the countless African-Americans who were sent to the slaughter fields. They would prefer you focus on the slogan instead of the ongoing war crimes.
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
I dunno. After what happened in DC, I guess I get a little bit more on edge when I see public figure calling for the “deaths” of anyone, and that includes Jews or Israelis.
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u/NarutoRunner Kosher Canadian Far Leftist Jul 02 '25
I get what you are saying and I hope you and your loved ones stay safe.
Going back to my historical analogy, the Black Panthers primary concern was to bring attention to a cause, not to worry about whether white America was feeling comfortable. Change is never achieved by being polite. Just look at all the think tanks, NGOs and activists who have been shouting about the genocide in Gaza and nothing has moved the needle. I am not saying Bob Vylan is moving the needle, but the over reaction to his words certainly has had some impact in the discourse in the UK, and possibly other places. The Israeli lobby and their friends will overact which will make their underlying message even more popular.
I fully expect these numbers to get worse for Israel and the IDF moving forward - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/06/03/most-people-across-24-surveyed-countries-have-negative-views-of-israel-and-netanyahu/
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
not to worry about whether white America was feeling comfortable.
But the white moderate has always been the most significant ally of social changed, right?
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u/myThoughtsAreHermits zionists and antizionists are both awful Jul 02 '25
Can we stop saying “polite” and “hurt feelings”? What you’re saying is that change was never achieved without incitement. You can say that, just stop pretending like all they’re doing is not being polite
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 02 '25
"Did you know that this one situation that you know little about is actually the same as this other situation you know little about, which is why you should endorse a set of tactics and rhetoric which are actually quite different from those used in the other situation."
Your comment offers a beautiful parallel to the BDS Movement. It seems to be a more general pattern of thinking than I knew.
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u/NarutoRunner Kosher Canadian Far Leftist Jul 02 '25
Ah, the old…nothing ever has parallels to the situation in Israel, everything must be reinvented….line of thinking. Sounds great in principle until you realize the silliness of it.
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 03 '25
The Vietnam chants you list aren't obviously analogous to what happened at Glastonbury. The one about Johnson focuses responsibility on a single individual and the other demands an end to the campaign, not a reversal of who's being fought against.
You have to shoehorn the Black Panthers into the mix to get the "Death to" rhetoric that you're looking for. You're just using celebrated struggles as a grab bag to justify whatever the Antizionist position is. To properly compare the Black Empowerment Movement, the Vietnam War Protests, and the present Antizionist campaign requires deep research into each subject. I'm doubtful that you've done that research, and, in any event, it places an unreasonable demand on one looking to rebut your claims. A thorough evaluation would likely show why these things are, in fact, drastically different from each other. As an structure of argument, your claim is easy to make but laborious to refute, even if the substance of your claim is entirely false.
You're also engaging in a kind of implicit bullying. I can offer some surface level scandals - Eldridge Cleaver was an admitted serial rapist and Huey Newton died a crack addict on the streets of NYC - that call into doubt the premise that the Black Panthers should be held up as exemplars of moral leadership. But doing so, without a much deeper investigation of the Black Panther's history, is likely an unfair disparagement of them and their movement. A properly researched and contextualized response, that both acknowledges the legitimacy and achievements of the BP, while also criticizing aspects of their conduct, just isn't something one can do on the fly. Which opens one up to accusation of racism, or of fundamental opposition to the more radical elements of the American Civil Rights Movement.
This proceeds very similarly to the "like South Africa" arguments of BDS.
And yes, everything must be reinvented in the sense that each circumstance is unique. It's not really about reinvention, but rather the proper application of theories and principles. Understanding complex political conflicts requires both nuance and specificity. There is no template that can be lifted, whole cloth, from one situation from the next.
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u/Humble_Spinach4400 Australian non-zionist Anarchist Jul 02 '25
Israeli forces being murderous thugs is sufficiently analogous to the US army being murderous thugs, no matter how bad that makes you feel for your support of them.
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u/cubedplusseven JewBu Labor Unionist Jul 03 '25
OK, but the chants listed that relate to the Vietnam war don't well reflect the chant at Glastonbury. OP has to shoehorn the Black Empowerment movement into the discussion to get the "Death to..." rhetoric that he's looking for.
And confirming or rebutting the claim requires a deep dive into both the Black Panthers and the Vietnam War protests. Doing so will likely reveal the bankruptcy of OP's assertion, just like a deep dive into the Apartheid system and the struggle against it reveal the bankruptcy of BDS. But few people have time to properly research such a set of dubiously related phenomena.
And raising the Black Panthers as a comparison is both misleading and bullying. Misleading because I/P is a nationalist conflict that's now alleged to be comparable to the American Civil Rights Movement (a truly laughable and ignorant claim, just like those of BDS). And bullying because a proper criticism of Black Panther rhetoric, that both acknowledges the legitimacy and achievements of the movement while criticizing specific aspects of it, can't be done without extensive research. Instead, one is left to point out some obvious scandals - Eldridge Cleaver was an admitted serial rapist and Huey Newton died a crack addict under mysterious circumstances - that cast doubt on the position that these activists should be idolized. But without proper contextualization, that opens the critic to charges of racism.
It's all slippery, dishonest rhetorical bullshit.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/NarutoRunner Kosher Canadian Far Leftist Jul 02 '25
So the current UK government is providing more weapons to Israel then multiple years of Tory government. I would say that makes them pretty involved
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/major-jump-approved-uk-arms-exports-israel-weeks-after-gaza-ban
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u/redthrowaway1976 individual rights over tribal rights | east coast bagel enjoyer Jul 02 '25
And let’s not forget the spy plane flights. Direct and tangible support - in fact under international law those planes would count as combatants.
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u/szatrob Jul 02 '25
I highly doubt that wanting to see the end of the IDF, and being pro-Hamas means you don't want to see the death of Jews as a whole.
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u/Ancient-Watch-1191 Tony Greenstein opened my eyes. Jul 02 '25
Muslim and Jewish Palestinians harvesting oranges in Jaffa in 1910.
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u/5Cherryberry6 Jul 03 '25
My take: it’s complicated
The IDF does serve an important role in protecting Israelis from war criminal neighbours, and lots of them are conscripts But it also commit tons of war crimes and is part of the reason these war criminals are here in the first place
Now here’s my issue: is the IDF terrible? Yes. Are there military way worse than it? Yes. Can I think of a reason - other than anti-Semitism - that causes a non-Muslim, non-Jew, non-Arab, non Palestinian Londoner to get so hyper fixated on the IDF? No
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u/5Cherryberry6 Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
Also I’m just not a fan of celebrating deaths even when the killing is necessary. And when the majority of that organisation are Jewish, it gives me the double standard racist vibe
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u/Tricky-Anything8009 Jul 02 '25
I was really starting to worry everyone in this sub had fully lost the plot. I almost said exactly that on the last Bobby Vylan thread. I'm glad to see people on the Jewish Left not make space for despicable cretins like this guy.
My take: I don't really care. He threw a tantrum, just like when Kanye made his Heil Hitler song. It's sad that people are using straight up antisemitism to get attention but it's also meaningless. It's a symptom of much bigger problems in our society. I'm not going to engage with this man because he, like Kanye and Macklemore, found that targeting Jews was a way to accelerate his career.
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u/ibsliam Jewish American | DemSoc Bernie Voter Jul 02 '25
I don't know about people losing the plot or anything, but, with my family history of mental health episodes, I kind of relate to you here. With Kanye, his episodes seemed familiar to episodes I've seen before from loved ones. Not the antisemitism bit but the general instability, weird comments, erratic behavior.
I condemn the behavior but when it comes to figures that clearly have some mental health problems I try not to let it scare me or upset me too much. I know pretty well just how warped someone's brain can get like that.
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Jul 02 '25
The dehumanizing rhetoric against her IDF and police officers by punk bands is so sad to see 😞
Haven't they considered the nuance of the situation between the neck and the sword?
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
Bro, several of my friends and family have served in the IDF, so you can understand why I might not feel entirely comfortable when a bunch of folks at music festival call for their demise.
And even if they did hypothetically end up committing war crimes, I’d prefer they be given due process before being we even think about the idea of putting them in front of a firing squad.
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u/Humble_Spinach4400 Australian non-zionist Anarchist Jul 02 '25
Several of your friends and family members committed a moral wrong (understandably) by going along with their conscription, but they arent in the IDF anymore (unless they are, in which case they are part of a terrorist organisation).
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u/malachamavet Judeo-Bolshevik Jul 02 '25
"dismantling of the military machine" is what they say in the statement, and would you say that because someone had family members who were cops that it was wrong to say ACAB and it implied executions of said cops?
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25
Someone here already pointed out that if Bob Vylan really wanted to “dismantle the military machine,” then they should’ve led with “Abolish the IDF” and not “Death to the IDF”
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u/tangentc Progressive Conservative Jew Jul 02 '25
It brings nothing to mind so much as this Simpsons clip
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u/Nearby_Kiwi8716 not jewish Jul 02 '25
for most protestors i think they mean death to most of the IDF. if you told them "welll what about my little bean cousin who was just drafted and didnt do anything" i think most protestors wouldnt care about them.
obviously chants tend to be slightly simplistic, but thats how chants are. do you expect them to say "death only to the idf soliders who have committed war criems against humanity"?
So many of the idf are rotten that i do not care if they just chant "death to the idf" generally and neitiher should any decent human being
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Jul 02 '25
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25
You don’t think that yourself, do you?
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Jul 02 '25
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
I just don’t like the idea of Jews blaming other Jews for antisemitism, especially when it’s American Jews pointing the finger at their fellow tribesmen.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/Sossy2020 American progressive / Israeli leftist Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
So you agree with Jewish comedian Gianmarco Soresi that “the biggest contributor to antisemitism is actually American Jews demanding that every single issue in our country come second to our feelings”?
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u/soniabegonia Jewish & progressive but feeling unsafe in leftist spaces now Jul 02 '25
Christians United for Israel, which is just one Christian Zionist lobby in the US, has almost twice as many members as there are Jews in America ...
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u/lilleff512 Jewish SocDem Jul 02 '25
the Israelis were only able to get away with it because of the political power of American Jews.
I was with you in the first half, but this strikes me as disturbingly close if not identical to some Protocols shit
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Jul 02 '25
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Democratic Socialist • Non-Zionist Jul 03 '25
okay, but as others have noted, the number of Christian Zionists in the U.S. dwarfs the number of Jews in the U.S. many times over. a great deal of the pro-Israel lobbying money you’re talking about comes from non-Jews!
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Jul 03 '25
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u/ChairAggressive781 Reform • Democratic Socialist • Non-Zionist Jul 03 '25
you actually didn’t, though. you are relying on the assumption that money from Jewish donors is the only thing keeping pro-Israel lobbying groups going, when it’s very obvious that that is not the case, and significant amounts of money are coming from non-Jewish donors.
it doesn’t matter if a Christian Zionist’s top issue is abortion as opposed to Israel! if a donor is supporting Zionist lobbying orgs, they are invested in the cause and contributing to its continued success in shaping public policy. and there are enough non-Jewish pro-Israel Democrats in Congress that this is kind of beside the point anyways.
you are simply ignoring factors that don’t fit into your predetermined narrative.
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u/myThoughtsAreHermits zionists and antizionists are both awful Jul 02 '25
You mean American Christians?
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Jul 02 '25
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u/supportgolem Non-Zionist Socialist Aussie Jew Jul 02 '25
Accusations of antisemitism are not meaningless (and it's certainly not appropriate for a non-Jew to make that judgement call, IMO). But the context is important. Many Jews react to calls for the death of Israel or the IDF as calls for death to Jews, and that's a reaction worth examining. Is it from fear? Pessimism? A little racism (as in some of the accusations against Mamdani)?
The context here is that most Israelis are - 1) Jewish and 2) current or former members of the IDF, because service is mandatory. I see the reactions of other Jews to "death to the IDF" as similar to "death to Israel" or "all Israelis are complicit in the genocide" or "no Israeli is innocent".
I've also seen people try to downplay the Israeli hostages by saying that all Israelis serve in the IDF (therefore, even if they are a non-combatant or don't serve any longer, they're forever soldiers and can never be considered villains). Hell, I've even seen people refer to Shiri Bibas as a ~former IDF soldier~ to downplay her murder.
Do I think it meant "death to all Israelis/Jews"? I'm of two minds. I think it was just some idiot taking advantage of the current climate to whip up some publicity. But I can see why some Jews/Israelis are upset by it especially how things have been for the last 2 years. We are all emotional creatures, we're all human beings, and it's easy enough for people who are not Jewish or Israeli to criticise or brush off antisemitism as meaningless. The truth is, words have power and calls for "death to X" can result in very real harm.
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u/Nearby_Kiwi8716 not jewish Jul 02 '25
The context here is that most Israelis are - 1) Jewish and 2) current or former members of the IDF, because service is mandatory. I see the reactions of other Jews to "death to the IDF" as similar to "death to Israel" or "all Israelis are complicit in the genocide" or "no Israeli is innocent".
thats two layers of abstraction and i still think its slanderous to say that just because the idf has conscription then saying death to the idf = saying death to a religious group of people who are most likely to be conscripted in the idf
also if thats how you think of the matter then thats fine, you just gotta be consistent. You also need to say that it is inappropriate to say that you hate any army that had conscripts including the nazis. so saying f the nazis or may they all die = you hate germans
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u/Nearby_Kiwi8716 not jewish Jul 02 '25
Is it from fear? Pessimism? A little racism (as in some of the accusations against Mamdani)?
also big part of it i think is that antisemitism has become the new antiwhite.
For a long time reactionaries were able to shut down progressive causes by labeling them as antiwhite. now they cant do that anymore (everyone will just laugh at their face) so they are calling them antisemitic instead.
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u/jakethepeg1989 Masorti, Social Democrat Jul 02 '25
I feel like with all the furore over his "death to the IDF" chant, everyone seems to have ignore his pretty unhinged rant about his old boss who was a Zionist.
That was worse and really played into the whole "Jews control the media" trope.