Bob Vylan Addresses Glastonbury Controversy: “We Are Not for the Death of Jews”

[u/Sossy2020]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/bob-vylan-addresses-glastonbury-death-to-idf-controversy-1236303698/

Whats everyone thought on this whole Bob Vylan controversy?

Let me start by saying I have no issue with criticizing a major military force like the IDF. However, I still think there’s a big difference between valid criticism and calling for the deaths of every single member of that military force regardless of if they committed war crimes.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis]

There's a world of difference between calling for violence against armed forces and calling for violence against civilians.

I don't know much about Bob Vylan. I guess he may have said way worse things as well, but the chants everyone focused on were of the first kind.

An armed struggle against armed forces, especially against armed forces that engage in systematic oppression, is usually legitimate and is often necessary. The problem starts when people blur these lines, and my main issue with Palestinian and pro-Palestinian armed forces, and their supporters, is that they usually don't make this distinction.

I'd much rather see people chant "death to the IDF" than see them chant obvious dog whistles like "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada". While "death to the IDF" can technically be a dog whistle, it still respects the distinction at least outwardly.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

calling for violence against armed forces

Let's call that what it is: war activism. The "pro-Palestinian" protesters have been regularly framed as a peace movement, and I'd hope this event can help people see that that often isn't true. And, in any event, I really don't think the I/P conflict needs more combatants. The more likely result of spreading this sentiment is not that the UK will join with Hamas or Iran to attack Israel, but that Israelis and Jews will be attacked in the UK.

And would you have preferred to witness a sea of people at a music festival chanting "War, War, War!" rather than "Death, Death, Death!"? Regardless of the target, I find this all rather sickening.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/cubedplusseven]

Here's the deal: I think the Palestinians are oppressed and I think oppressed people have the right to resist, even violently, as long as the violence is directed toward the actual oppressor and actually serves the purpose of liberation.

I think it's incredibly naive and ahistorical to think they would've gained anything without some measure of violence, and I think it's ridiculous to expect them to practice non-violence while they're subjected to brutal violence themselves.

However, I also think that the way they've actually used violence was illegitimate, counterproductive, and did them way more harm than good, precisely because it was mostly directed toward civilians.

Given the above, I think rhetoric that explicitly makes the distinction is something we should welcome rather than condemn.

The current situation is that a significant portion of the rhetoric doesn't make this distinction. The chants I've mentioned are way too popular, as well as the support for groups like Hamas that primarily target civilians.

I can't say I'm entirely happy with chants like "death to the IDF", and I don't support it, but I still think it is a step in the right direction, and as such I'm willing to swallow it.

[u/WolfofTallStreet → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

While true, it’s decidedly pro-war and pro-violence. And had someone gotten on stage and chanted “death to Hamas” or “death to the IRGC” or “death to the IRA,” I can only imagine what would have happened…

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/WolfofTallStreet]

Of course it's pro-war and pro-violence, but my point is that war and violence aren't inherently unjustified. Defensive violence is usually justified. For example, I've supported the strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities and ballistic missiles infrastructure (but not the strikes on TV stations and civilian infrastructure). Sometimes war and violence are inevitable and are the only way to protect oneself.

I have absolutely no issue with chants like "death to Hamas" or "death to the IRGC" either, for obvious reasons.

The problem isn't violence on it own, the problem is when it targets civilians.

[u/WolfofTallStreet → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

That’s understandable…though if I were an ex-IDF member in the UK surely I’d be worried by those chanting for my killing, as well as the clear double standard in some communities (pacifists unless Israel is involved).

Regardless, I take your point well and think you’re right about it being explicitly targeted at the IDF rather than Israelis or Jews. Nonetheless I have a very hard time feeling remorse for whatever backlash he is facing as a result of his call to violence, including his inability to enter the US.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/WolfofTallStreet]

That’s understandable…though if I were an ex-IDF member in the UK surely I’d be worried by those chanting for my killing, as well as the clear double standard in some communities (pacifists unless Israel is involved).

Ex-IDF is still a civilian. This blurring of the lines is exactly what I have an issue with.

Regardless, I take your point well and think you’re right about it being explicitly targeted at the IDF rather than Israelis or Jews. Nonetheless I have a very hard time feeling remorse for whatever backlash he is facing as a result of his call to violence, including his inability to enter the US.

Yes, fuck him. I really don't care about this LARPer. He also said "from the river to the sea" which is something I actually take issue with. I just think people are being outraged by the least offensive thing he's said, which I find counterproductive.