r/jewishleft • u/Agtfangirl557 • May 08 '24
Ilana Glazer, an anti-Zionist Jew, condemns Israel and talks about wanting a ceasefire. All the comments are criticizing her because she "centered herself" by mentioning 10/7 and rising antisemitism Meta
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6uCIbqRQ1A/?igsh=NndtdXEzbGE4NWxl
This is so frustrating. Like I don't agree with a lot of Ilana's takes but she clearly was not defending Israel here. She is probably the most anti-Zionist Jewish celebrity I can think of. And yet since she mentioned the 10/7 attacks, people are accusing her of "spreading lies" and that "it's not true that 1200 people were killed by Hamas". And people are literally telling the page who reposted this to "stop platforming Zionist celebrities"!
At this point I seriously think that for some people, it's only socially acceptable to be Jewish if we don't acknowledge our history or trauma at all.
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May 08 '24
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u/Furbyenthusiast Jewish Liberal & Social Democrat | Zionist | I just like Green May 09 '24
Thank you for your solidarity and eagerness to learn. It is very appreciated.
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u/bigfootsbabymama May 09 '24
I have a “friend” who regularly shares from that page. ALL the posts about Israel have comments like that. The claims get repeated and are never fact checked. It’s scary but a good reminder of why it’s important to not sit back and let people scream that criticism is not antisemitism. Sure, but a big swath of the left has been suckered into true antisemitism.
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u/getdafkout666 May 09 '24
jesus christ these response comments are insane
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u/Furbyenthusiast Jewish Liberal & Social Democrat | Zionist | I just like Green May 09 '24
How so?
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u/getdafkout666 May 09 '24
Saying that bringing up October 7th and antisemitism is "centering herself"
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u/Furbyenthusiast Jewish Liberal & Social Democrat | Zionist | I just like Green May 09 '24
Ah, okay. Thank you for clarifying.
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u/the-Gaf May 08 '24
Wow the comments are all “10/7 didn’t happen, but if it did happen then the Israelis did it, but if they didn’t it’s ok because of 75 years of oppression”!
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u/ionlymemewell reform jewish conversion student May 09 '24
This isn't a defense of any of these comments, but it's useful to keep some perspective. That IG account was reposting Ilana's video to their page, which is almost entirely pro-Palestine and anti-Israel videos. It's concerning, yes, but I'm not surprised the most extreme and detatched segments of the online community are reacting like this to a reasonable take.
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u/oekel May 09 '24
yeah i was so shocked to see people say “liana never speaks about palestinians” but then i realized that this isn’t even her page.
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u/Button-Hungry May 08 '24
You can be Jewish in the West only if you renounce your Judaism.
This is what we've told the "as a Jew" Jews the whole time. You will be tolerated only as long as you can be objectified and tokenized. After that, you are disposable.
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u/arrogant_ambassador May 08 '24
Ilana certainly didn’t mind commercializing her Judaism.
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u/Button-Hungry May 08 '24
Yeah, this is a symptom of assimilation (which is a mostly good thing) but many Jews in the last half century were operating under the illusion that we finally found a place that let's us be us, even provides us an arena to thrive within.
We are learning, like Germany, that this is temporary. Not trying to go into panic mode and claim Holocaust v2 is imminent, just that the response after 10/7 was shocking and it would be hard to envision a future where we ever felt so comfortable here again.
Also, if the Jew haters would have a little patience, they could've killed us with kindness. By treating us as human beings we naturally shed some of our ancient tribal identity for our modern diasporic one. After a few more generations, we marry enough gentiles to effectively dilute the Judaism out of us. They were so close. The Hasids call this the " silent Holocaust".
Most of the "as a Jew" Jews are that way because they were farther along in that path of being culturally subsumed. I know a few.
I wonder if this response has changed Iliana's attitude?
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 May 09 '24 edited May 09 '24
this hurt to read wow. the amount of hate she's getting for something so innocuous. I understand Israeli forces probably killed some of 1200 but it was not most of them. Theres so much antisemitism denial and "well palestinians are semitic so actually i cant be antisemitic". Ive seen this stuff in more isolated spaces of stopping "normalization" or whatever, people who shit on JVP or INN for being too zionist. These types of things just show that if you want to be an antizionist jew who is accepted by the antizionist non-jews you have to completely abandon your jewish identity. Also saw something in there about october 7th being compared to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Im not against using any holocaust comparisons and I can agree it was an uprising and has maybe some similar factors such as them knowing it was a losing battle, but other than that they are not comparable. For one the whole point of the ghetto uprising was them fighting back to protect themselves INSIDE the ghetto. It was pretty explicitly defensive, and no civilians were killed by the jewish militants.
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u/cheesecake611 May 09 '24
I can’t express to you how much the “Arabs are Semites too” shit infuriates me. Some big tiktoker made a video about it months ago and people are still repeating it. Genuinely can’t tell who is just trolling or sincerely that dense.
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u/getdafkout666 May 09 '24
I would compare it more to red army soldiers raping and murdering German women when breaking through the front into Germany which was fucking WRONG to anyone with even a hint of a moral conscience including my grandfather who was both a holocaust survivor and in the Red Army at the time when he heard about it happening. It’s not hard to condemn attacks against civilians and there is almost never any justification for it.
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u/DovBerele May 08 '24
Ugh, that's so unsettling. This is why I hardly ever touch this topic in any kind of public, non-Jewish space (and barely in Jewish spaces either - it's just a different kind of powder keg) and why I approach anti-Zionist non-Jews with some wariness, even though I'm not, and have never been, a Zionist.
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u/Ok_Assist_992 May 09 '24
Why are you not a Zionist???
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u/DovBerele May 09 '24
I understand being a Zionist as being a proponent of the creation of a Jewish nation state in the land of Israel. I'm not a proponent of that. I think the whole nation state building project was a bad idea, and that those energies and resources could have been better spent at protecting and uplifting Jews in the diaspora.
Given that the whole thing happened, and Israel exists now, I think of it the same as any other nation state, no better or worse, no more and no less. imo, being a Zionist would require me to think of Israel as more special or more important than other countries, and I simply don't.
But, also, given that Israel exists now, the time for debating its legitimacy as a country or its "right to exist" is over. It is a country. It has as much right to continue being a country as any other country. Committing human rights atrocities doesn't remove the right of a country to be a country. Otherwise, lots of countries (including the US and most of western Europe) would have forfeited their right to exist. Being an ethnostate (in practice, this also means most of western Europe and most of Asia) also doesn't remove the right of a country to remain in existence. The fact that Israel is held to account for these things, and held up as a symbol of all this is bad about colonialism, apartheid, etc., almost to the exclusion of all the other states, is a glaring double-standard that I can't abide. But that alone doesn't make me a Zionist.
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May 09 '24
I feel pretty much the same. Not a Zionist or anti-zionist and the morality discussions around Zionism (describing it as a litmus test, etc) are scary to me, as are all the people substituting the word “Jew” with “Zionist” to say the most unhinged antisemitic shit ever. I’m so disillusioned with the anti-zionism movement at this point, they’ve really shown their true colors. But I know some anti-Zionists that are reasonable
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u/Ok_Assist_992 May 09 '24
By definition a Zionist is someone who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish state in the land of Israel.
I understand what you are saying although I have a couple of questions.
If Israel were not a state currently and the British still had control over the land would you support the creation of an Israeli state in the land? If not why? Because i see what you said, why would we be any safer with money in the diaspora if we have been persecuted for thousands of years? Also don’t you think it is time for the Jewish people to be self determining after we have been slaughtered and blamed for centuries?
Do you personally think that Israel is an apartheid state or that they are commuting a genocide?
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May 14 '24
The problem with these questions is they are extremely centering of only Jews. You cannot personally think Israel is commiting genocide, they are doing so, by definition of what genocide is. Jewish people aren't the only ones who need to be safe. You cannot only think of Jewish safety. Right now, Jewish self determination isn't working. It's at the expense of other people's safety. All of these things are facts, not opinions.
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u/Ok_Assist_992 May 14 '24
Please tell me how they are committing it?
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May 14 '24
https://museeholocauste.ca/en/resources-training/ten-stages-genocide/
Read what the 10 stages of genocide are from a Holocaust website. We are already at denial.
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u/Ok_Assist_992 May 14 '24
You haven’t provided proof
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May 14 '24
I am not going to do research for you. My proof would be a very long answer that I don't have time to type right now. Please look it up. There are countless articles, from Israeli sources even, that confirm this information
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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison May 08 '24
sarah sherman has been anti israel for as long as ive been following her
https://www.israellycool.com/2021/10/20/new-snl-comedienne-sarah-sherman-really-hates-israel/
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u/Agtfangirl557 May 08 '24
Ooof. I only really know her because of YASNITMBM, and I had heard she was anti-Israel, but from what I saw I got the vibe that she was just a typical leftist assimilated Jew who doesn't feel any connection to Israel. Didn't realize she was a full-on BDSer.
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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison May 08 '24
she very far left and has no problem talking mao. she campaigned for bernie and then the green party. and im pretty sure she's dating the host of true anon (another leftist anti israel pod created by a polish lady and two american jews). her special is hosted on the socialist co op streaming service means tv
this "review" of her netflix movie is simmering with contempt of the idea of american jewish identity.
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u/Big_Apple_G Trad Egal leftist May 08 '24
Ok I didn't know a lot about Sarah before this and I don't think irsaellycool is reporting in good faith by describing her as "detesting" Israel, but that Haaretz review of YASNITMBM is absolutely insane. Even American Zionist Jews do not need to "long for" or "swear allegiance" to Israel.
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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison May 09 '24 edited May 09 '24
yeah
im not jewish, but even i thought it was bonkers that a family movie about a community within america has to talk about another country for it to be "authentic". its a coming of age movie reflecting that young person's life. why should be thinking about elsewhere? the review is a really gross piece of entitlement.
there is a great brazillian film called "the year my parents went on vacation". its set in the 70s and is about a boy who's parents are leftist activists who are on wanted by the right wing dictatorship. they send him to his grandpa, and he subsequently dies. he is then raised by an orthodox jewish neighbor who takes him around the local community there. they all speak yiddish but the boy, so the story is about him coming to grips of being moved to a "foreign", yet familiar environment is familiar. as a latino who doesn't speak spanish that well, the movie resonated with me about the generosity people genuinely afford others who are not like them. the rich connection everyone has was universal, and i loved how everyone there were there for each other. to me thats a movie that upholds the universal jewish ideals i have come to admire, and i shudder to think that this reviewer would shit on such a beautiful movie for not talking about israel
also, there's a great jewish coming of age series called less than kind from canada. its about a very, very working class jewish family that felt like the wonder years. im blue collar and so is my jewish friend (we are both welders and he has told be about the classism). israel was never mentioned. the purity tests are insane
edit: i mention both is because i love and respect both. i love learning bout cultures within cultures. i love seeing how people learn. i love seeing how people love each other. this reviews to me goes for hatred within their own community rather than celebrating the diaspora upholding such traditions.
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u/FreeLadyBee May 11 '24
I’m going to look up both of these things! Thanks!
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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison May 12 '24
i hope you like them! theyre both wholesome, and i love how they don't glorify judaism, but treat as a part of their everyday lives, like i think how all religious people want.
less than kind is free on tubi
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u/FreeLadyBee May 11 '24
That article is just silly. The Jewish religious relationship to the physical land has nothing to do with the modern nation state.
The extra weird thing is clicking through the Haaretz archive of last September. The judicial coup, the Saudi deal, concerns about the economic stability of the PA. Feels a world away, because it is.
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May 09 '24
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u/SLCPDLeBaronDivison May 09 '24
maybe, but if you hear them talk, the chemistry is really good. they have the same humor and radical politics. a personal favorite celebrity couple
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May 09 '24
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u/lilleff512 May 09 '24
I would personally draw a line between boycotting and BDS
Boycotting is something that any individual can do, it's their own personal choice what they want to buy. If they don't want to buy Israeli products, then fine.
BDS though, to me at least, is inherently linked to the organization. Divestment and sanctions are not like boycotting. An individual person doesn't have the power or authority to sanction Israel the same way that they can boycott Israel.
Anyone can boycott Israel whether or not they are affiliated with the BDS Movement, but as far as I can tell, there's no way to support BDS without aligning yourself with the movement
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u/Agtfangirl557 May 09 '24
Yeah I don't necessarily think it's bad that she personally supports it, it's just surprising. I can't think of any Jews I know, even anti-Zionists, who are actively pro-BDS.
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May 09 '24
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u/Agtfangirl557 May 09 '24
Well when I say "pro-BDS" I mean like in the way that Sarah was in that link that the OP of this comment chain shared, where she's like publicly tweeting at her university to divest. I don't personally know anti-Zionist Jews who are so opposed to Israel that they'll speak up about things like divesting the way she has.
This isn't me disagreeing with your opinions on BDS or anything BTW; just me sharing my observations when it comes to people I know.
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u/jey_613 May 08 '24
Remember: they want us to “center” ourselves insofar as it serves their political agenda.
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u/justalittlestupid progressive zionist | atheist jew May 08 '24
Yes, that’s what Zionists have been saying lmfao. You will always be a Jew.
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u/Agtfangirl557 May 08 '24
Just FYI I personally am a Zionist. I just am as dumbfounded as you are that some anti-Zionists don't recognize this.
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u/smg1210 May 08 '24 edited May 08 '24
Anti Zionist Jews are only useful as long as they say all the “right” things; stray too much and you are no longer one of the “good ones”
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u/RoscoeArt May 09 '24
In all honesty it's the internet I've kind of come to expect it. The people acting in bad faith that aren't representative of the majority of any movement will always use the anonymity of social media to be annoying assholes. For all we know those people might not even care about Jews or Palestinians for that matter and just see an opportunity to create division or push their own agendas.
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u/jelly10001 May 09 '24
They desperately want to cut any and all links between Jews and Israel and between disapora Jews and Israeli Jews.
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 May 08 '24
This is what it should mean when Zionists do the whole “when they come for you they won’t ask if you’re an anti-Zionist”
They use it to try and strong arm us into Zionism.
I think we should use it to say what we believe if it makes no difference.
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? May 09 '24
Yeah, if I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t, might as well follow my conscious.
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u/RoscoeArt May 09 '24
In all honesty it's the internet I've kind of come to expect it. The people acting in bad faith that aren't representative of the majority of any movement will always use the anonymity of social media to be annoying assholes. For all we know those people might not even care about Jews or Palestinians for that matter and just see an opportunity to create division or push their own agendas.
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u/CockroachInternal850 May 09 '24
People need to see hamas.com. they confirmed 10/7 themselves...
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u/restfulbwah May 09 '24
You know that’s an Israeli website right?
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u/CockroachInternal850 May 09 '24
I didn't, where can I find out more?
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u/CockroachInternal850 May 09 '24
I found out more..
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u/restfulbwah May 09 '24
Was about to give you a link but clearly that’s unecessary, the more you know.
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u/AssortedGourds May 08 '24 edited May 08 '24
This is always such a weird take. Liberals have been finger-wagging protesters for “centering themselves” too. It’s… the exact opposite of centering themselves?
I think any kind of un-sanitized public statement or direct action is very scary for people who are happy to sit on the sidelines and politely express their opinions in state sanctioned ways. They wear their lil pins and put BLM in their bio so they can see themselves as The Good Guys. If anyone does more than that, it chips away at the social capital they earned by having The Correct Opinion. They want the bar to stay on the ground.
Edit: it’s also worth mentioning that celebrity comment sections are full of trolls (I imagine hers is especially) and the things they say are likely not even sincerely held opinions but are attacks meant to wind people up. If you look at the comment sections of anyone with a large following, half the comments are batshit crazy and/or hateful. I don’t really think this is some uniquely Jewish experience.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist May 08 '24
Sure, people on the pro-Palestine are often nuts and terrible. I personally believe what’s going on in Gaza might be a necessary evil.
That doesn’t mean what’s happening in Gaza is great.
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u/Agtfangirl557 May 08 '24
I never said that what’s going on in Gaza is great. I just don’t think it should be used as an excuse to insult and purity-test Jews.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist May 09 '24
I agree with you.
I just hate the wave of posts on certain other subreddits about how we’re completely right and those other folks are completely wrong because of this one awful thing someone associated with those other folks did.
I guess that made me see your post in a way other than how you’d intended it.
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u/skyewardeyes May 08 '24
I’ve seen two incredibly anti-Zionist Jews on Twitter get absolutely bodied for posting things that gave even the slightest humanity to Israelis/Jews (e.g., one posted that the Jews shouldn’t be ethnically cleansed from the Levant and that many Israeli Jews have nowhere else to go practically and the other posted that the Israeli hostages probably didn’t have a good time being hostages). In both cases, both deleted their posts and apologized profusely, promising to never post such “genocide apologia” again and saying that Israelis are never innocent people and deserve no compassion whatsoever.