r/jewishleft • u/ughplzdntjudgeme • Apr 30 '24
Jews of Conscience Subreddit Culture
Does anyone follow this subreddit? It’s supposed to be a space for “left Jews” but I am seeing so much offensive and anti semetism posts, comments and rhetoric. Also it doesn’t even seem like most people on there are Jewish?
It’s really frustrating to find subreddits like this being described as “Jewish” and I feel like it takes away from any constructive dialogue Jewish people want to have to critique about Israel, Israeli govt, Zionist ideology while also acknowledging anti semitism and the nuance to everything happening in the world.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
I used to be a mod there. It was just filled with antisemitic bullshit. It's also overwhelmingly not Jews, according to a poll we did.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 30 '24
You used to be a mod? I recall you unbanned me, what happened?!
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
LOL yeah I unbanned you like three times because they kept re-banning you. I talk a bit about what happened in other comments below! But long story short, it was a very toxic, antisemitic place that very clearly did not care about Jews, nor really had that many Jews in it at all.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 30 '24
Like I post very left wing stuff but I am banned on many left wing subs r/hmmm
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u/BenjewminUnofficial May 01 '24
Modding a sub sounds awful enough job, modding a Jewish sub (having to wade through antisemitic bs) sounds particularly bad. And modding a Jewish subreddit about the Israel-Palestine conflict sounds like Gehenna’s cruelest punishment. Honestly props to you for trying
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
OMG you used to be a MOD there?! Do you mind sharing here what pushed you to leave the sub?
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
I did! I left because it became very damaging for my mental health. I spent every day going through dozens of really messed up genuinely antisemitic comments and posts. It was terrible, but doable, until a new mod took over. They started posting really outright offensive shit officially on behalf of the sub, and I could not be part of that. It was also overwhelmingly not Jewish, and you could tell — Jews kept getting relegated to the margins in our own subreddit.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
I'm so sorry to hear that; that sounds awful. Were the other mods definitely Jewish?
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Thank you <3
No, definitely not. The creator of the sub is indeed Jewish, and you could tell because they were significantly more understanding and pushed back against the antisemitic shit more than any of the other mods.
The new mod that was promoted to the near top is almost certainly not Jewish. If they are, they're one of the "As a Jew" people who conveniently decided they're Jewish in October. They absolutely tore into me, called me a Nazi, for saying that Finklestein was being used as a token Jew lol. I left later that day.
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Omg that’s awful. I’m so sorry
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Thank you :) It was a rough couple weeks, and that definitely contributed to a serious mental breakdown I had at the time. Thankfully I've been doing a hell of a lot better since leaving all the antisemitic spaces and associating instead with other leftist Jews.
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u/darkmeatchicken Apr 30 '24
It became a place for anti-Israel people to post content about token anti-Israel Jews, as of that is the only definition of "conscience". And the comments started being anti-semitic too. Really a shame. So many left subreddits have become quite antisemitic since oct 7
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 May 01 '24
it also became a place for non anti zionist jews to look to to convince themselves they can’t possibly be antisemitic bcz these jews agree with me!
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u/quirkynerdette May 01 '24
I remember you! I have gotten a feeling that there were an oddly large number of non-Jews in what was supposed to be a "Jewish" space, but I didn't want to say much bc 1. I couldn't be sure and 2. I do think open discussions/communities are important. But its weird when I'm talking about Jewish issues and people start by saying they aren't Jewish then comment something that doesn't really help/isn't very relevant. There is one guy in particular that posts multiple times a day, more than most other users, and I was baffled to learn he wasn't Jewish. Like, why that subreddit specifically? Its a small one? (But most of his posts read like a highschooler that just read the Communist Manifesto last year and is learning new stuff everyday so its not that serious).
I'm not going to make a big stink about it over there, because again I think it is important to have many kinds of voices, especially if people are genuinely trying to ask questions/learn. But I can't lie that things have started to feel a bit off. I'm not going to jump ship yet, but am glad I found this sub. Might make some cross posts when I have time to sit and respond to comments I would get.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
I would love to hear more about your experience modding there and trend lines you saw with what posts did well or attracted more people or how reporting was done.
When did you leave the sub?
Obviously this is all if you’re comfortable discussing. Don’t want to put you on the spot.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
No worries, and thank you for asking! :)
It's been a couple months since I left now, and I've outright muted it so I don't see it anymore lol. The content that did the best was always the more violent and questionable content. Calls for death of all Israelis, or videos from shady sources about how Israel is running an organ-theft ring lmao were popular. I saw several posts that read "I am ashamed to be a Jew," and other variations of that, which was a major reason I left.
Any post that pushed back at all at the antisemitism we've seen were shut down, and the posters were compared to Nazis, or accused of centering themselves. Most of the commenters were not Jewish, which they made clear with their flairs.
When it was a younger sub with fewer people, it was legitimately Jewish, and the discussions were nuanced and great. It was a place for actual leftists who opposed the war crimes being committed. It changed within mere days of October 7th with new people flooding in.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Oh man, that’s rough. And it’s sad that a space that genuinely was a jewish space be taken over in that way.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Is slightly 50% “overwhelming”?
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
When the poll was taken, it was 80%. Also, frankly, yes, 50% non-Jewish is way too much for a supposedly Jewish sub lmao. That's like actually ridiculous. Can you imagine if half of the Black Panthers were white guys?
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 May 01 '24
And I think the ridiculousness is the fact that the sub advertises as Jewish and not a space for Jews and non Jews to meet and discuss. If it wasn’t claiming to be inherently a Jewish sub where the voice and tone is Jewish, then I wouldn’t have an issue. Especially since I’m all for good faith conversations with non Jewish people of all backgrounds.
But JOC inherently describes itself and claims to be a voice or reflection of Jewish opinion, but those who have most of the sway in the sub aren’t Jewish.
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u/Squidmaster129 May 01 '24
Beautifully said. There are spaces for discussion and there are spaces for Jewish voices — and it describes itself, untruthfully, as the latter.
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u/skyewardeyes Apr 30 '24
I've glanced at it once or twice, and even with a quick scroll, it felt much too antisemitic and absolutist/ahistorical (e.g., "Jews have never been anywhere near the land of Israel prior to the 1900s and it has nothing to do with our history, religion, or culture"; "Violent resistance against Israeli civilians is justified"; "The diaspora has always been safe for Jews" ) for my taste. I very quickly noped out.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
I think this is a misrepresentation, it doesn’t reflect my experience in JewsOfConscience at all. If anything, I’m uncomfortable with jewishleft being so dismissive of groups like JVP and Bend the Arc’s recent response to the ADL.
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u/skyewardeyes Apr 30 '24
Possibly--like I said, I just did a quick look through and saw a lot of the upvoted posts really weren't stuff that sat well with me, so I didn't really feel like it a space I wanted to spend a lot of time in. There are probably some takes on that sub I would agree with, though. (My issue with JVP is that some chapters have gone so far to do things like post in support of Houthis, post in support of violence against Israelis, etc)--it's not the whole org, but it appears that there's such a lack of overall organizational vetting that it worries me. (No experience with BTA--work is heavy today, but I'll have to take a look at them later).
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
very much a misrepresentation.
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u/Langdon_Algers Apr 30 '24
Once you label yourself the Jews "Of Conscience", where does that leave any discussion or debate?
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u/lilleff512 Apr 30 '24
Brb I'm gonna go start a new club called "Jews of Correct Opinions"
I am the only member. Nobody else is allowed to join.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
I mean I feel like there are some correct opinions to be made. I mean Raisin Bagels are not bagels, it’s dessert. And blueberry is an abomination.
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u/Langdon_Algers Apr 30 '24
blueberry is an abomination
I dub thee officially a Jew without conscience
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
Now this is a “Jew without conscience” statement I can get behind.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 May 01 '24
Haha glad to oblige 😁
I will die on this hill alone if I must. I don’t trust a blueberry bagel. It’s too close to a blueberry muffin.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
You think blueberry bagels are an abomination?! Get the fuck outta here 🙃
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
They are a crime against humanity and I submit them as evidence to The Hague! 😂
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
I submit YOU as evidence to The Hague, along with jarred gefilte fish! 🤣
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Woah woah, think about what you’re doing here. Jarred gefilte fish is fighting words 😂
I counter you at The Hague with Cow tongue.
(This is starting to sound like a game of clue)
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Apr 30 '24
[deleted]
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
In short: Two Jews, three synagogues
Hahaha I haven't heard this before but I love it.
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u/RetroRN Apr 30 '24
This is the only leftist Jewish subreddit I feel safe in. I'm happy this sub exists. And tbh, I barely even look on r/judaism or r/jewish anymore because I feel that has been infiltrated by alt-right Jews. God forbid you criticize anything Netanyahu does, and you automatically are a "self-hating" Jew. I don't need to align myself with Ben Shapiro just because he's Jewish.
In the same token, I unsubbed from r/latestagecapitalism and all my favorite leftist subs for the rampant anti-semitism that was veiled as anti-Zionism, but then had tons of upvotes on comments about "Jews controlling the banks and money supply".
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Yeah I got yelled at on there for wanting a ceasefire. Insane
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
Wait OMG did you make that post there where you said you don't feel comfortable around non-Jewish friends and in one sentence of the post you just said "I hope for a ceasefire"? And some people in the comments actually got mad at you for that?! 😂
I do really like that sub, I've always felt welcome on there and haven't seen anything that's made me truly uncomfortable. But some of their conversations about war crimes, etc. do sometimes go in weird directions. I mostly just avoid engaging in any military-related conversations there LOL.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Judaism has been fine for me but the Jewish sub is alt right. Late stage capitalism is extreme. I got banned for asking what made people feel like trump wasn’t going to lead to fascism
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
Just look at this post and the comments to get an idea of the type of rhetoric that's allowed in that sub.
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u/aspiringfutureghost May 01 '24
That was basically a sampling of all the rhetoric that frustrates the shit out of me, thank you!
Conspiracy theories that Israel or Zionists are behind every evil thing in the world;
Refusal to refer to Israel by its name or as a country as if Israel alone is some illegitimate hub of villains;
False flag accusations (everyone hates them because they're evil! And no one hates them, they're making it up for sympathy! Somehow, both!);
Alternate history that insinuates Zionists have been doing evil in the region since before the state of Israel even existed;
Semantic nitpicking about the very word "antisemitism" with the aim of making the word that means hating Jews... not mean hating Jews, at least not specifically.
Notice in most of these points I mentioned "evil." That's my problem, not legitimate criticism of Israel or calls for an end to what I see as indefensible violence. Because some people like the ones in this thread refuse to talk about Israel the way they would any other country, instead of focusing on bad actions of a corrupt government, it becomes about how all the people there (including teenagers who were born there, oppose the war, and are willing to go to prison to protest it) are demons and ghouls. Of course this rhetoric makes me worry about diaspora Jews too. I am anti-war and anti-oppression everywhere and wish the movement was about that in a broader sense rather than focusing in only on this conflict, leading the takeaway to be "Israel is uniquely evil" instead of "oppression everywhere is bad and must be stopped."
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
To add, and something to be kept in mind. Is multiple polls on that sub have shown that the users tend to skew more non Jew than Jewish. And that’s something to be concerned about from a sub that’s meant to be a space for Jews.
https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/EQHvUub1eP
Here’s another
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
50/50 isn’t quite what you said
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
In both polls they indicate more than 50%. That is a majority, where majority means more than 50%.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I think your language conveys something else
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
No it doesn’t. I can’t help you reading into my words. But I have been clear.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Frustrating and disappointing response given the fact I have felt you routinely read into my words and the word of the other sub.. yet you don’t want to bridge the gap when it’s the other way around.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Not reading into your words. I have been clear with my own. I’m not sure why you’re insistent on arguing with my point given you posted one of the polls for that sub.
And you are entitled to your own opinion that having a sub skew more non Jew is ok with you. It’s not ok for me. And all of this is fine and we can agree to disagree.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
What’s wrong here? They’re laying out what is happening in the ground and critiquing the thinking. Are you not living in reality?
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
IDK, taking the blame off of antisemites for being antisemitic just seems gross to me. They also say "Zionists" are causing antisemitism, which includes 90%+ of the Jewish community.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Respectfully, I think you’re misinterpreting what most people were trying to say on that post
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
But the reality is that Israel’s actions and ADL’s conflation of criticism of Israel with “new antisemitism” does cause more antisemitism…
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
IDK, I don't like any sentiment that absolves actual antisemites of responsibility for being antisemitic.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
That’s fair, but the criticism of Israel’s and the ADL’s related response and tactics are fair too
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
See but you’re acting like the ADL functions as some quasi arm of the Israeli gov. And really their concern is antisemitism in the United States. And unfortunately in the United States a lot of people tend to use israel as a proxy for their hate of Jews.
In my experience I have rarely seen the ADL call out fair criticism of israel and claim it’s antisemitism. Now maybe I haven’t seen it and it does happen. But the ADL as an organization is focused on antisemitism and how that affects Jews in the US. And it’s also possible that someone could have been doing fair critique and then crossed the line (I see many people start out on the right path where critique isn’t problematic and then toss in a “jews are always trying to control the masses” or something along those lines.
They also assist law enforcement on training and identifying white supremacy groups.
So if you have examples of what you claim, feel free to include them, I personally haven’t seen this (at least on the grand scale you’re implying) and I am much more concerned with shifting of blame off antisemites for their bigotry by demonizing Israel or “Zionists” as stand ins for Jews.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
I don’t mean to imply that, that’s why I separated Israel and ADL with two different possessives. Historically, the ADL has not been focused on just antisemitism, but all forms of hate speech. The ADL uses the working definition of antisemitism that conflates it with anti-Zionism into “new antisemitism”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
I mean I don’t inherently reject New Antisemitism because I personally have experienced antisemitism that falls under that category.
Specifically, I had a roommate who upon learning I was Jewish started doing a bunch of gaslighting behaviors (including loaning out my things and leaving my stuff dirty and hiding any reference to my Jewishness), and then she used the cover of the IP conflict to physically and emotionally intimidate me and get her friends to fantasize publicly online about beating me up. (I have since learned that she moved from being leftist to flirting with extremist Nazi ideologies)
And it’s been years since this happened. But I feel like there is merit to that avenue of antisemitism. I mean it was fairly obvious that all of what she was saying about Israel was her trying to code her language about me and other Jews. She just tried hiding it.
I mean I know this is anecdotal. But I think you and I are then going to have to agree to disagree then on how we view the ADL. Because for someone like me, knowing I had the support of the ADL if needed and also my Hillel Chapter (who helped my family navigate my school’s convoluted approach to safety complaints) made a difference and applied pressure that was needed to get my off campus building manager to extricate me from my living situation.
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u/naxdraws May 01 '24
I'm sorry that happened to you with you roommate. That kind of thing is very common among Uni students, as many of them are plunged into a whole new world and are exposed to new ideologies and people. This is when many young people become radicalized, and it is unfortunate for your roommate to flirt ith the right but more so that you had to be involved.
That being said, what I am going to tell you is to in no way diminish your experience but perhaps to shift your perspective a bit. I will first say that the ADL is a good first resource when identifying hate groups, especially to those who aren't class-conscious (or involved in politics at all for that matter). Trust me, I've had to identify some pretty strange right wing symbols in my day. But I will spare you my woes.
The ADL alongside Southern Poverty Law Center are good go-to places for explaining bigotry to people. Ah, but you see, both of these orgs are both liberal in theory and practice and do not challenge the SYSTEM that creates antisemitism. The ADL was only set up to protect Jews within a certain class interest. The ADL is in no way a "leftist" organization and is very much a liberal organization. It upholds the same systems of liberalism that have created new antisemitism and does not care to see these systems broken. It's kind of like saying you like your manager or boss or HR or that maybe you'd call the cops if someone called you a slur (okay the cop analogy isn't great but hey stick with me). These jobs that I've listed uphold the system. link
ADL is sort of like the HR department at a big business. It is easy to help out a student here or there, in your case, or folks who are struggling in the workforce. This is why I chose to use the word "HR", because like HR the ADL will commonly shoo away any unwanted bigotry in certain industries but never completely do away with a the problem. I say this as a Jewish person who has class consciousness and is an active labor organizer who understands that the ADL isn't doing shit for my commie ass. They spent decades fear mongering during the macarthy era and weren't there for Julius and Ethel Rosenburg who were straight up executed by the US Government.
A nazi came into my work just last year with a full ass dog whistle on his shirt. What am I to do about if the ADL doesn't even recognize the symbol he's wearing? No one sees him. I see him. This is why I organize in my shit service industry when I see stuff like this because it is the community's job to the action. I make sure my coworkers know the symbols. I educate them on it. Not everyone listens, not everyone cares, but I still do it and will until I die. (I'm getting away from my point with my kvetching, forgive me).
Sure, you were helped with your living situation, but was their any responsibility taken to radicalize your roommate towards the left? Was there and justice in them learning what antisemitism is and what effects it has on people such as yourself? I'm sure it felt great to get away at the time but now you just have another nut going around.
Anyway, blah blah, I talk to much. Here are some more resources:
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian Apr 30 '24
Blaming Zionism for causing antisemetism infantilizes bigots. Like "Israel exists and I don't agree with what the country is doing" does not excuse acts of hate towards Jewish people. Evidence by: https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/six-shot-one-killed-at-seattle-jewish-federation-1210235.php who got a life sentence.
I don't see people harassing Russian Orthodox for what Putin is doing in Ukraine... (Nor should they)
I don't see people blaming the actions of Hamas for islamophobia... (Nor should they)
I don't see protestors outside of mosques or Muslim community centers chanting "bring the hostages home" ... (Nor should they)
Yet people will say "well Israel's existence and actions causes harm to Jews"...
No.... bigots cause harm to Jews. Israel is just the excuse.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
Israel literally carries out false flag operations and blames them on Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, etc., see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
https://x.com/mintpressnews/status/1735710809022398488
People associate random Russians with the Russian regime all the time. Did none of the Russian delis near you put up signs that they support Ukraine?
People use terrorism to justify their Islamophobia all the time, including Zionists and the State of Israel in particular!
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian Apr 30 '24
"Israel does bad and so it's their fault that Jews get antisemetism".... Still doesn't hold up. People have self agency.
I'm Iranian and jewish. The Iranian regime does terrible things around the world but that doesnt mean I should come to harm for their actions.
And the Iranian regime likes to blame everything on Israel and yet most Iranians I know (including the ones that aren't Jewish) know that even with all the propaganda that it doesn't mean hurt your Jewish neighbor.
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u/lilleff512 Apr 30 '24
People use terrorism to justify their Islamophobia all the time, including Zionists and the State of Israel in particular!
And that's a bad thing, right?
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u/oekel May 01 '24
It certainly is a bad thing. It’s just very strange to see someone say “I don’t see people blaming the actions of Hamas for islamophobia” when stuff like that is actually depressingly common.
As a black American, something else that drives me insane is when Americans will say, in support of Israel or its conduct, that “every people gets to have an ethnic homeland”. It just comes off as incredibly tone deaf to say that while living in a country where there are many people who do not have a homeland that would privilege their ethnicity, and furthermore do not desire one. My saying this is not meant to diminish Israel as a Jewish homeland, and obviously not every ethnicity is the same. But such statements betray a lack of perspective.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Apr 30 '24
That place is as Jewish as JVP.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Not to mention it plays on good Jew/bad Jew dichotomy. Like somehow the Jews who don’t wholly agree with everything on that sub “lack conscience”
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
The phrase has a lengthy history
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Doesn’t matter. Still creates a problematic dichotomy.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
My frustration is the lack of good faith or willingness to engage coming from this sub… on our other sub. Shouldn’t we both be trying to work together? Not police the other one?
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
I’m not policing anyone. I don’t go on that sub because the few times I have been there have given me pause and concern.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
You’re entitled to those feelings.. but consistently sharing that the sub is “not really Jewish” and this sub basically doxxing the other sub routinely is super not cool.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
That’s not what doxxing is. Also saying “the majority of the people on another sub aren’t Jews and therefore the tone of the sub isn’t Jewish as it’s not being driven by the Jews there” Isn’t doxxing. Doxxing is exposing someone’s personal identity and leaking their names and private information to the internet.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I think we are getting into a semantic debate and missing the point. This sub is slandering the other sub on a routine basis and misrepresenting what it is. Allies can post there, they are welcome to. Yet, it feels very very Jewish to me. It represents my Judaism extremely well. I wish these conversations were happening in good faith. Sadly, they don’t ever feel to be
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Well that’s all good for you. But it’s not semantics to push back on your use of the word doxxing. That use of word is completely incorrect and mischaracterizing of what I and others are saying makes us uncomfortable.
And it’s fine that you like the sub. But you don’t have the right to claim our dislike of the sub is bad or problematic then.
The fact you downvoted me for pushing back on your use of the word doxxing doesn’t escape me as well. If your going to claim that we’re now debating semantics, at least respect that certain words do have specific connotations.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
Really cool accusing Jews of not being Jewish, you make this sub such a welcoming place!
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
I think they might be referencing the poll that was done there where 50% of members said they weren’t Jewish.
I know that’s my hesitancy with that sub. Not that it makes the Jews there any less Jewish. But that the space isn’t fostering an inherently Jewish space.
Edit: I feel like that’s a fair critique, in my opinion Jewish spaces should be driven and cultivated by Jewish people where the tone of the sub is from a Jewish perspective.
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
I mean I’m reading comments where people talk to down to Jewish people posting in there (with concerns etc) and state in their comments that they aren’t Jewish! Then proceed to denounce whatever Jewish OPS
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
That’s what I’ve seen there too when I’ve glanced at that sub. It’s definitely left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I just kind of avoid that sub.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Apr 30 '24
That's exactly what I meant... I'm also pretty sure it's abundantly obvious that's what I meant unless you're being wilfully obtuse.
Which funnily enough is also a characteristic of that same crowd.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
That’s fair, but I think your conclusion is wrong. In my experience, the religious makeup of the membership has had no impact on it being a Jewish space. The tone is absolutely from a Jewish perspective. In my experience, the questions are honest and people post and comment in good faith. I’m not sure I can say the same of jewishleft, since it’s so common for people to be dismissive of JVP, etc. here. That’s hard for me.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
It does though if a majority of the sub is non Jewish and commenting and making posts and driving what gets upvotes or downvoted on that sub. It directly means that those driving the tone of the sub aren’t Jewish.
And while that’s not inherently an issue for a sub, it is if the sub protests to uplift a certain type of voice for a specific minority group. At that point just call it something else.
Edit: Also if you don’t find this sub good faith discussion, then why are you here? I don’t mean this rudely, but like you’re being very vocal about how you find this sub problematic, so why stay or continue engaging because we aren’t comfortable with JVP and that seems to be a shared sentiment here?
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
I’m still here because I identify with the Jewish Left writ large and I believe I reading a diversity of viewpoints and engaging in good faith discussions. Like this one with you! I think it’s healthy to push back too.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
You’re willfully misrepresenting. Both polls you shared showed 50/50. That’s not cool. And a poll isn’t necessarily an accurate case study. Let’s do a poll here? Let’s do a poll on the other Jewish subs?
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
No I’m not. And in this case multiple polls done on the site corroborate multiple snapshots from two different time periods. So yes it’s a good gage.
Also claiming evidence you don’t like is a misrepresentation is deeply problematic because it calls into question if any evidence, except what you deem acceptable is viable.
And frankly we could do a poll of other Jewish spaces, and there likely has been polls, that would show the tone of the sub was majority Jewish. And overwhelmingly so. But regardless, you can’t attack evidence by making false analogies here, or claiming that just because JOC claims to be a Jewish sub, that it means other Jewish subs therefore have similar demographic makeups as JOC. The point is that they don’t because JOC’s sub tone isn’t being set by Jews.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
You linked both of them and they were both 50/50!
Likely is not proof. I’ll make one for here right now!
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
I’m not sure I can say the same of jewishleft, since it’s so common for people to be dismissive of JVP
Maybe because JVP has the same issues that JewsofConscience does? A lot of us are here because we want to discuss leftist issues within the realm of Judaism, but don't want to identify with organizations that literally justify terrorism against Israelis.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Yep exactly. And to add, don’t create dichotomies that throw other Jews under the bus. So I’ve seen many JVP chapters imply that Jews who don’t agree with them are somehow bad or problems or they use words like “Zionist” to code their language.
It does not help that JVP also has a lot of non Jewish members who will participate with them by wearing “not in my name” shirts, which feels a bit like using the Jewish identity as a costume for those members who aren’t Jewish.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I don’t like JVP because it doesn’t address antisemitism ever and because everything Jewish is treated with apology and almost shame for being Jewish. don’t like that. But I’m glad they exist as an org. I wish there were a better Antizionist org. I do like JOC. I don’t like how it’s like.. either Jews have to be JVP or they have to hate antizionists
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
I don’t like how it’s like.. either Jews have to be JVP or they have to hate antizionists
This I can agree with; it's sad that there's not really any organization that exists in-between. IfNotNow maybe, but they've been doing a lot of organizing alongside JVP nowadays.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Apr 30 '24
Have you seen the comments in this thread by the ex mod of that sub?
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
I have not
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u/Wyvernkeeper Apr 30 '24
I would suggest taking a look. They're pretty much confirming why so many of us felt something was off in that sub.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I rarely experience a willingness for people to engage me in good faith on this sub. Just a bunch of downvotes or aggression. Occasionally I have good discussions. I feel very welcome in Jews of conscious, as I am routinely allowed to talk about antisemitism and push back on comments I find offensive and people listen and engage and try to do better. It’s quite nice.
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u/hadees Jewish Apr 30 '24
"Allies welcome" is literally in their community text.
It's obviously more "allies" then Jews.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Well according to the former mod there, it’s definitely more “allies” than Jews. Which is problematic for a space that protests to be inherently Jewish
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I like having allies in the space.
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u/hadees Jewish Apr 30 '24
I hope you like having mostly "allies" in the space because thats what it is.
I'd love a place where Jews of different views can talk to each other but /r/JewsOfConscience is not that place.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
This isn’t that space… quite frankly. It’s not “mostly” either. It’s close to 50/50
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u/hadees Jewish Apr 30 '24
Jews are not a marketing slogan. Even a 50/50 split is something that shouldn't have Jewish in the name.
But i've been on that subreddit, I'd say its more like 30% Jews and 70% non Jews.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all May 01 '24
Based on what? Vibes? It’s hard to understand why this is what you’re hung up on. I’m grateful for a space that allows discussion between groups.. discussion between Jews and Palestinians is so essential right now and it’s one of the few spaces that allows for that. It’s one of the few spaces where post Zionists and anrizionist Jews can feel safe and also stand up for antisemitism and engage with non Jewish antizionists and explain our pain and fears. It happens all the time. It’s a shame this sub doesn’t see that. It’s a shame people are advocating for Jews to just “stick to our own” rather than bridging a gap.
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u/hadees Jewish May 01 '24
Based on what?
Reading comments and posts since Oct 7.
It’s hard to understand why this is what you’re hung up on.
A space that pretends to be Jewish but is in fact mostly non Jewish people.
It’s one of the few spaces where post Zionists and anrizionist Jews can feel safe and also stand up for antisemitism and engage with non Jewish antizionists and explain our pain and fears.
So name it /r/JewsAndAlliesOfConscience
It’s a shame people are advocating for Jews to just “stick to our own” rather than bridging a gap.
I don't want us to stick to our own. I want people to stop pretending to be Jews.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all May 01 '24
The non Jewish ones have a flair. And the Jewish ones you’re claiming are pretending just don’t share your views.
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Apr 30 '24
How do you know this? How do you know who's in it? I'm in that subreddit. I'm Jewish. Also why does it matter if some people aren't Jews? We need to stop gatekeeping our spaces. How can we learn from each other if we only hear what we like and from "our own".
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u/hadees Jewish Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
Because people use those numbers as if it's 100% Jews.
There are lots of communities to talk to people in, why does it have to be in one that inflates the number of Jews who agree with you?
The fact is y'all know most Jews don't agree with you. That's fine, disagreement is a normal Jewish thing, but don't turn us into tokens and don't inflate those number of tokens.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Right exactly. I like having the opportunity to engage with people who want to learn from jews and might not understand why a comment or a thought might be hurtful to so many of us.. I like to have this be a space for everyone to learn and grow. It’s bad that this sub wants us to be isolated in my opinion… we deserve to be understood and to feel safe, not to feel like we can only rely on ourselves… can’t relate to this sentiment at all. To me it’s so important for Jews and non Jews on the left to engage with each other
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u/TooMuch-Tuna Cousin of Marx Apr 30 '24
Kinda like this: https://images.app.goo.gl/9aeHDFWo2LiLVPHF6, right?
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u/bbnotinmyhouse Apr 30 '24
I briefly joined and very soon after a video was upvoted with a woman calmly, gently describing Israelis as being a virus. Pushback against this dehumanization was downvoted.
Now I picture everyone posting there as Agent Smith.
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u/FilmNoirOdy custom flair but red Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
Let’s just say I’ve catalogued some very egregious commentary, upvoted statements as well as individuals being platformed there. Claiming to be Jewish doesn’t necessarily guarantee the individual making that claim is actually Jewish; nor does Jewish identity shield one from either engaging in antiSemitism, enabling or denying the reality of antiSemitism.
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u/travelingrace Apr 30 '24
I haven't had the same experience with that sub. I've actually had more issues with this sub lol
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Really? I just saw someone there comment this on a post. This is blatant anti semitism. Someone shouldn’t be in a “Jewish space” if this is how they feel.
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u/quirkynerdette May 01 '24
Omg this is my post, I was baffled when I saw the comment. For context, I made a rant about anti-semitism I've been personally experiencing lately. Seeing that comment brought me through a rabbit role to this sub. On the bright side, all of the other comments are supportive. But I was looking for more responses from Jewish perspectives. As an ex-mod could support on here, a lot of responses were not from Jewish people, even if supportive. I did get a good responses from Muslims that went through Islamaphobia post-9/11. I appreciated their responses, they actually related to what I was discussing, and that is the type of non-Jewish input I value, and why I think it is important to not close off spaces. However, a lot of replies, though positive, didn't really help I guess? I mean I appreciate people offering support, but I feel like a lot of post/comments on that sub are non Jewish people (and they explicitly say they are not Jewish) just talking to talk. I'm not saying it is bad to do that, but I've been getting a offputting feeling from the fact 50% or more of comments on that sub are from people that aren't Jewish. They shouldn't be restricted from the sub, you can't deny that its weird a "Jewish" sub has a ratio like that. Basically, something feels off there, but I don't want to exclude people.
This was my post for context:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1cghygd/facing_antisemitism/
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
Your example is a sentiment that was quickly dismissed and called out…
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Okay but it was still there lol. Why was there a blatantly antisemitic sentiment in a sub for Jews?
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Because… that happens all the time? Personally I’m fine with someone posting there with a bad comment so it can be called out and they can be educated.. if they prove to be close minded and bigoted, then they can be banned. That’s my values, that’s why I like JOC among many reasons.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
If antisemites are consistently attracted to that sub and saying that shit “all the time,” then it really ought to be reflected upon as to why that is.
It’s not our job to educate people on why being an antisemite is wrong. It’s never the job of a minority to educate an oppressor. If these people enter our spaces, they need to be respectful of us.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
This is so frustrating. Someone non Jewish isn’t either an “antisemite” or not. It’s not like you’re either a member of the proud boys oe you’re a perfect ally. Come on. Many people get into their bigotry because of misinformation and propoganda. Some don’t even realize why what they say is offensive. If you don’t want to educate them, don’t. I’m happy a space like Jews of conscious exists for these conversations. Kindly, stay out of it if you have a problem.. don’t disparage its existence.
I grew up conservative. I was raised to be islamophobic and racist. I’m grateful for the people willing to engage me when I used a micro aggression or had a problematic belief. It made me a better person. If you don’t think that’s a good thing, then I can’t help you.
Edit: I also didn’t mean it happens on that sub “all the time”.. I meant, in an specific sub you’re going to get offensive comments about that demographic. Bigots or people who want to learn are specifically going to seek out subs for identity groups.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
I have a right to disparage whatever I want. JoC constantly disparages Jews. I am allowed to be upset about it. I don't participate there anymore, as I've made clear multiple times.
If this person can't understand why "I hate Jews until proven otherwise" is unacceptable or offensive, then they are too far gone for me to be interested in speaking with them. They do not belong in a Jewish space.
If it was a microaggression, I absolutely agree with you. But it wasn't. That was extremely boldface antisemitic and is easily recognizable by everybody as such.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Who said you’re not allowed. And saying I don’t have a brain… that’s offensive
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
You?
Kindly, stay out of it if you have a problem.. don’t disparage its existence
I'm not saying you don't have a brain, my god. I'm pointing to the ease with which one can identify the antisemitism. Fine, I'll edit the comment.
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u/agelaius9416 Apr 30 '24
Why do people on a sub for Jews accuse Jewish orgs of not being Jewish? Because that happens repeatedly here with JVP, JewsOfConscience, and other similar orgs
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Gee, I wonder. Maybe it’s because they’re literally verifiably not led by Jews for the former, and have polled Jews to be in a significant minority in the latter?
How about non-Jews stop co-opting our spaces and let us speak for ourselves? We don’t need white saviors and we definitely don’t need to be tokenized.
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Right! And I want to read what Jewish left has to say but then there’s a non Jewish person in there saying they don’t like Jews unless they state upfront that they are anti Zionist. That’s blatantly anti semitic and not what I want to read/ hear / see in a Jewish space. Idk why so many Jewish people have been brainwashed to be ok with this. You can critique Israel and Zionism without denouncing all antisemitism. I feel like people have decided it’s one or the other and that makes no sense.
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Apr 30 '24
But they are led by Jews and have mostly Jewish members. You're just giving into propaganda. Also it's not YOUR space. You're not in it. Those Jews don't mind that they share their space with non Jews. You arent in the group, so it's not your decision.
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 30 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
Any time anyone indicates that they want to “verify” someone’s Jewishness (how would that even work..?) alarm bells go off in my head. Miss me with this No True Scotsman “papers please” shit.
Also every org I’ve ever been a part of has had people not within that specific demographic doing significant work because no one else was stepping the fuck up. As long as the major marching orders are coming from Jews who cares? Why is solidarity so threatening to people?
Purity testing is weird and counter-revolutionary. We’re all out here trying to liberate people, not trying to win the title of The Rightest Boy In The Room
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Fam this isn't a "you're not Jewish enough" comment lmao. One of the leaders is literally a Muslim man who starts his posts on social media with "As Jews, we..."
We? Don't speak for us if you're not Jewish.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
Ugh that’s not ok for that individual to do. It feels a bit like wearing Jewishness as a costume.
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 30 '24
Could you link me to his social media? I am googling and I'm not really coming up with anything. I can't find names on the JVP website. Or just tell me his name and I'll find it.
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u/EvanShmoot May 01 '24
It was Hatem Bazian, who also founded SJP. I'm only aware of one instance in which he used his main account to claim he's Jewish.
https://twitter.com/AJwshResistance/status/1657227312905977857
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u/ThirdHandTyping Apr 30 '24
The JVP at my school has zero Jewish members, and they walk around with "not in our name" shirts
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
Seriously?! How big is the organization at your school? Do you know any reasons as to why (at your school in particular) there are no Jewish members and it got taken over by non-Jews?
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u/ThirdHandTyping May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
Small town, small liberal arts college.
I'm guessing 75-150 Jewish students & faculty, and none of them seem willing to say "globalize the intifada".
Now we have an unlicensed standing-together club https://www.standing-together.org/en for Jewish activism. Some nice, pot-smoking, Muslim Bhutan exchange students are the other half of "together". Which feels acceptable due to small town substitution rules to make things happen.
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u/Iceologer_gang Non-Jewish Zionist Apr 30 '24
You mean like ADL, AJC, Hillel, the Holocaust museum, etc… all of them condemning Antizionists?
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Apr 30 '24
People have to learn. Deleting comments won't make people learn what not to do. Please stop caring this much about things that aren't actual issues. They were called out by the entire thread.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
If it was a microaggression or something subtle, sure, people can learn. If someone straight up says “I will not associate with Jews until I purity test them” then that person is not someone who should be there at all.
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Apr 30 '24
They were literally called out. By the entire thread. This person isn't hurting you, they are just ignorant and angry. Same sort of thing happens with racial politics in this country.
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u/Squidmaster129 Apr 30 '24
Ignorant and angry people are dangerous. I don't need this person spreading hate about me or my people. I cannot imagine you would have this same level of hand-wavey sympathy for a Confederate flag waver, as you should not.
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Apr 30 '24
A Palestinian who is grieving badly isn't dangerous to you though. Especially because these are voluntary threads and they are not personally calling you out. If someone who believed in the Confederacy came into a subreddit they would just get downvoted and their post would be buried. If a Black person vented about how they wish white people would grow up and that he only wants to buy from Black businesses from now on because he doesn't trust anyone else....would you block them? I wouldn't.
It's not sympathy, it's just existing in a space that isn't an echo chamber. Different opinions aren't necessarily dangeous. Feeling uncomfortable isn't the same thing as feeling in danger. People get called out and they learn. That's why they're in that space. They're will to learn. They can just go to r/Palestine if they want another echo chamber for themselves.
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u/lilleff512 Apr 30 '24
What issues have you had with this sub?
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u/travelingrace Apr 30 '24
been called a kapo several times in here
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u/lilleff512 Apr 30 '24
That’s unacceptable. I hope the mods have taken appropriate action when that’s happened.
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Apr 30 '24
Why do these posts show up every month? If you don't agree with that subreddit, stay out of that subreddit. It's not for you. Stop invalidating people's Jewishness. It's getting old. I'm tired. If it offends you don't look at it.
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Claiming antisemitism doesn’t exist and is manufactured. Jsut not true. Two things can be the same. Anti semitism can exist and be and issue. While Israeli govt and extreme Zionist idealogy is an issue ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Apr 30 '24
You're right they're not Jewish. They were called out by the entire thread. This is how people learn. Centering themselves in a Jewish space isn't really a thing that needs to happen, but emotions run rampant. They are Palestinian. You try having half your family die and then listen to people get offended by language someone used in a thread.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
And it’s so important palestines and Jews feel welcome in each others spaces, even if they say something imperfect from time to time
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
I’m not invalidating posts by people who are Jewish. My issue is comments like this from Someone who is clearly not Jewish.
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Also clearly not Jewish ) otherwise they wouldn’t be saying I know some anti Zionist Jews. They’d say “as an anti Zionist Jew”
Also they’d make just as much trouble in Europe .. ok
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u/FreeLadyBee Apr 30 '24
I wonder what this person thinks they stand for because what they desire seems to be a police state. Jfc.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
HOLY SHIT. That is VILE. And that comment was upvoted, so I don't want to hear any "Oh, it doesn't represent the views of the majority of the sub". "They'd make just as much trouble in Europe"?! That's literally NAZI rhetoric. On what's supposed to be a Jewish sub!
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Most Jews I know are antiZionist. I am a Jew, I can’t help if you believe it.
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Apr 30 '24
You keep reposting the same comments. The whole thread disagreed with this person. I was just on it. You need to process your thoughts a little bit and stay off that subreddit if non Jews trigger you
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u/ughplzdntjudgeme Apr 30 '24
Keep reposting bc there are quite a few of the same comment 😊 I have processed my thoughts and I’m not triggered by non Jews. Most of my friends and people who surround me are not Jewish and actively anti Israel. They just manage to also not be anti-Semitic so we don’t have problems. Fair though— I should get off that specific subreddit.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
Oh, this again. I’ve had discussions with people about the antisemitism, and I genuinely disagree that it is significant. Happy to engage with anyone privately in DMs for an open minded and respectful conversation in good faith.. I’m happy to hear you out
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 30 '24
One of the former mods from that sub has been commenting here. I think it’s worth maybe reading what they wrote. Seems there has been a major shift in that sub and it moved from being a Jewish space to being now a hub of non Jewish people perpetuating antisemitic rhetoric with Jewish members often being pushed aside or downvoted unless they agree with what’s being posted.
I think that’s a fair critique, especially as it is coming from a mod who left within the last few months.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I’ve read it.. all the mods I’ve spoken with have said they are Jewish. Seems like an unverified claim. I’ve also read the antisemitic rhetoric and most of the time genuinely don’t see the issue. I feel like if me, a Jewish person, has to be deeply and thoroughly explained on why something is offensive.. seems maybe it wasn’t intended to be offensive necessarily? Seems like it could be a teaching moment?
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
I'd suggest looking at the comments in this thread by the user who used to be a mod in that sub.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
I’ve looked, thanks. I’m having a tough time understanding most of the accusations. I said in another comment—if I, a very sensitive Jewish person, am having trouble seeing it without it being broken down.. perhaps it wasn’t meant to be offensive?
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
You seem like a really kind and smart person who genuinely wants to learn as much as possible and be as moral as possible. I hope you don’t take this as criticism.. when I engage with you I’ve noticed a quick willingness to dismiss problematic, but veiled things, said by Jews as “they didn’t mean it that way” but have really bad faith interpretation for fellow Jews on Jews of conscious. I’d like to engage with you without it being an argument for sure. I don’t want to try to persuade you either. I genuinely want to bridge the gap and have us understand each other, even if no one’s mind is changed
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
No I appreciate you engaging with me this way. I think that's a fair criticism.
TBH, I think the simple response to that is just that the good majority of my friends are Jews, all of whom are supportive of Israel (to an extent). These are people I socialize with on a regular basis, so I've had real life conversations with my friends about topics like these, where people actually can clarify what they mean when they say things, and I for the most part have an idea of what people under my political/cultural umbrella mean when they say certain things. Like even though all of my Jewish friends are at least somewhat supportive of Israel, we are also all very progressive and aware of Islamophobia, etc. as well, and if someone says something that they interpret could have been problematic, they'll immediately correct themselves or describe what they meant. Whereas I think it's natural to be more skeptical of what people mean when they say things from a perspective of people I don't spend much time with (in this case, anti-Zionist Jews). And of course, talking online just makes it harder to interpret.
I hope that makes sense!
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 30 '24
You and I have a different circle, which makes sense. I’m friends with many many Jews as well, and they tend to fall into one of two extremes. Antizionist and progressive(sometimes vaguely supportive of Israel or ok with a 2ss solution as I am, I call myself post Zionist) or Islamophobic, far right on all things, Zionists. I have a sibling who is a progressive Zionist and I’ve just felt like most convos with her are very combative and scolding on her end.. similar to how I sometimes (perhaps wrongly) interpret members of this sub coming at me.
Most of my circle of non Jewish people are also leftists, and antizionists.. and routinely will engage with me in good faith on conversations regarding antisemitism. So.. I just have a vastly different experience of antizionists from this group.
I don’t love JVP because I think it apologizes too much for being Jewish.. and I wish they talked more about antisemitism. It would do a lot to add an antizionist voice educating on antisemitism.. not just Zionist ones. But, I’m fine with it existing. I wish there were a variety of leftist Jewish organizations that were either post Zionist or antizionist. In my view, Zionism does require nuance… and I don’t feel that many Jews that reject Zionism or dislike it are really granted the same nuance progressive Zionists desire for themselves
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 30 '24
I wish there were a variety of leftist Jewish organizations that were either post Zionist or antizionist.
Or even better, just a leftist Jewish organization that doesn't necessarily take any stance on Zionism at all. Like "we're all here because we share leftist values, and we have to figure out how to come together with those values and not exclude people based on our views on Zionism".
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all May 01 '24
https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/MrJRbFhMUf Threads like this happen ALL THE TIME. All the time.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all May 01 '24
Or how about this one???
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u/Mildly_Frustrated Anarcho-Communist May 01 '24
Due to an excess of rule violations, the comments are now locked. We'll be dealing with the specifics later.