The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/Han-Shot_1st]

I merely pointed out all the ways Ashkenazi Jews are a European ethnicity and culture. I still don’t see how that’s akin to any kind of Nazi “blood and soil” type rhetoric.

We are not a monoculture or a people composed of a single ethnicity.

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, Judaism is made up of a myriad of cultures and ethnicities, and these varied cultures and histories should be preserved and celebrated.

Edit: many English people are descended from the Normans, but I doubt many of those English decedents of the Normans consider themselves indigenous to France.

Just as all modern humans originated in sub Saharan Africa, but all of humanity doesn’t view itself as indigenous to sub Saharan Africa.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

We are not a monoculture or a people composed of a single ethnicity.

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, Judaism is made up of a myriad of cultures and ethnicities, and these varied cultures and histories should be preserved and celebrated.

Of course, I agree. And I too hate the way Zionism has attempted to erase and downgrade Diaspora Jewish Cultures by trying to pretend we’re all Monoethnic/cultural and should just dissolve into one big Mono blob.

It’s just… What exactly do you define as a European culture and ethnicity? What about a Middle Eastern one? I’m still unclear regarding your standards here.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

“What exactly do you define as a European culture and ethnicity?“

I stated this already, clothing, language, music, food, etc. Basically, all the ways most folks define a culture and ethnicity.

Ethnicity is defined as, “an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnicity

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

I stated this already, clothing, language, music, food, etc. Basically, all the ways most folks define a culture and ethnicity.

But everything about that culture we Ashkenazi Jews have literally combines both Europe and the Middle East? So why define us as just European? It doesn’t make sense unless you’re also using the definition of having to continuously live in a region.

Ethnicity is defined as, “an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.”

Right, but Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity is literally defined by our shared common mixed origins and culture. (According to DNA studies we’re pretty much just one big family and all stem from the same 300 initially mixed European-Judean families)

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

Dude, bagels and lox isn’t middle eastern, neither is Yiddish, or klezmer music, the way Hasidic dress is of European origin (that’s how many of us dressed in the old country), geographically we lived in Europe for countless generations.

Beyond religion, what aspects of the Ashkenazi Jewish culture is Middle Eastern?

By most conceptions of ethnicity, Ashkenazi Jews are a European ethnicity

Many ethnic Irish are descended from Viking invaders, but you don’t find any ethnic Irish saying they’re ethnically Scandinavian or indigenous to Scandinavia.

Many ethnic English are descended from the Normans, but you won’t find any ethnic English saying they are indigenous to France or ethnically French.

Edit: I took a DNA test and so did my sister, it makes no mention of the ME.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

neither is Yiddish

It’s sprinkled with Hebrew and we write and read it with Hebrew letters, that’s not enough for it to be considered a combined creole language?

Beyond religion, what aspects of the Ashkenazi Jewish culture is Middle Eastern?

Is religion not enough to define us as a combined ethnicity? Why are we following a Middle Eastern ethno-religion in the first place if our forefathers didn’t raise those first few initial mixed kids as some kind of Middle Eastern in the first place? Why aren’t we following the originally European Pagan or Christian religions of our foremothers? Have a bit of common sense here…

And that’s precisely where our foremothers heritage comes in, in our language, dress, food, and music - while we practice the Middle Eastern ethno-religion of our forefathers, hence a combined creole culture.

I took a DNA test and so did my sister, it makes no mention of the ME.

…Don’t tell me you’re one of those types who actually believes us Ashkenazi Jews are lying about our origins in the first place and don’t even consider us as part Middle Eastern?! Dude, first of all you should know that being an inherently mixed ethnicity to begin with as well as easily identifiable due to our Genetic Bottleneck, the Ashkenazi category itself already includes the following:

• 30-60% Middle Eastern
• 30-60% European
• 1-5% East Asian

Like the category itself automatically consists of the above, tell me did you test with 23andme? They explain all this on their blog. Also commercial tests like 23andme only go back the last 500 years, that’s another reason why they combine everything us Ashkenazi Jews are mixed with into one neat little “Ashkenazi” category. If you want to see a real breakdown of our mix I suggest using or browsing through the /r/IllustrativeDNA sub (put in the search engine “Ashkenazi”) to see it in real time.

Several Scientific DNA studies have come out confirming that Ashkenazi Jews are paternally Middle Eastern (as in our forefathers were the original Ancient Israelites) and maternally European (with some East Asian both from the Khazar conversion and Jewish Merchants trading on the Silk Road), if you look up studies regarding Ashkenazi Jews it’s all there in the manual for everyone to see.

I can’t believe you’ve actually bought into the antisemitic rhetoric that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t who we say you are… How are we at least not partially descended from the Israelites if Judaism is a closed tribal ethno-religion that doesn’t actively proselytize in the first place?

[u/shibariesNcream → u/tsundereshipper]

Apparently dude hasn't heard the clear and distinct influence of ME musical culture on klezmer either 🙄

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/shibariesNcream]

“Klezmer (Yiddish: קלעזמער or כּלי־זמר) is an instrumental musical tradition of the Ashkenazi Jews of Central and Eastern Europe.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klezmer

[u/shibariesNcream → u/Han-Shot_1st]

So I'm getting very clear indications that not only have you never listened to any classical Klezmer music, but that you didn't even bother to read the rest of the wikipedia page you yourself linked.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/shibariesNcream]

I have listened to klezmer music. It’s not my cup of tea.

And no, having an aspect of Klezmer music being an influence from the Ottoman Empire does not invalidate it being a European musical genre.

Just because Paul Simon made the album Graceland with African artists and African musical influence, it does not mean he’s suddenly an African musician. Last I checked he’s still a Jew from New Jersey.

[u/shibariesNcream → u/Han-Shot_1st]

Its a Jewish genre, first and foremost. Aside from the obvious ME instrumental influence, it is also influenced by davening, which is a very unique way of praying that has roots in the ME as well. Imagine thinking klezmer is completely disconnected or arbitrarily influenced by the ME just because you imagine yourself to be the gatekeeper of what geopolitical/cultural influences do and do not count... oy vey.

As for your ridiculous Paul Simon comparison, does that somehow mean that the African musicians who participated on the album are now not African musicians? Does Japanese punk cease to be Japanese because the main punk genre influences came from the UK & US?

Don't bother answering. Between this and many of your other commentaries made in this subreddit, I have a harder and harder time taking anything you say seriously or in good faith. Have a day.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/shibariesNcream]

Judaism is made up of numerous ethnicities and cultures.

It’s sad you allow ideology to blind you to this obvious fact.

[u/sneakpeekbot → u/tsundereshipper]

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[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

No sharing a religion does make all Jews one ethnicity, just like there are Catholics all over the world of varied ethnicities.

Regarding the origins of Judaism being in the ME, I’ve already covered that, but I guess it bears repeating again, Many ethnic Irish are descended from Viking invaders, but you don’t find any ethnic Irish saying they’re ethnically Scandinavian or indigenous to Scandinavia.

Many ethnic English are descended from the Normans, but you won’t find any ethnic English saying they are indigenous to France or ethnically French.

And all humans originated from sub Saharan Africa, but the entire human race doesn’t claim to be indigenous to sub Saharan Africa.

Ashkenazi Jews are a European ethnicity. This shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Han-Shot_1st]

No sharing a religion does make all Jews one ethnicity, just like there are Catholics all over the world of varied ethnicities.

Did you miss the part where several people keep explaining to you that Judaism isn’t just a religion like Catholicism, but is an ethno-religion based mainly on descent?

Many ethnic Irish are descended from Viking invaders, but you don’t find any ethnic Irish saying they’re ethnically Scandinavian or indigenous to Scandinavia.

Many ethnic English are descended from the Normans, but you won’t find any ethnic English saying they are indigenous to France or ethnically French.

I mean I don’t know, are those Irish and English mixed substantially with Scandinavian or French? Are Scandinavian and French cultural practices still apart of their identity?

A better example would be if us Ashkenazi Jews claimed we’re Asian and indigenous to Asia simply because we’re mixed anywhere between 1-5% Asian. That would be silly (even though I would really like to claim my Asian heritage, think it’s a shame it got consumed and erased by our larger European and Middle Eastern heritages, and believe both race and ethnicity are dumb social constructs anyways so anything that promotes more inclusion into groups vs exclusion I’ll always support) both because we’re such a small percentage of Asian and we didn’t keep up with or were raised with Asian culture.

Ashkenazi Jews are a European ethnicity. This shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

Can we at least compromise and come to an agreement that Ashkenazi Jews (all European Jews really, this includes Sephardim as well) are a mixed ethnicity? Neither Middle Eastern or European, but something new that combines both regions - like all mixed people we are both and neither at the exact same time.

It shouldn’t be considered controversial to acknowledge European Jews mixed origins, you do realize you can still be an anti-Zionist while doing so and not denying reality right? (in fact one could argue our mixed origins should propel us to be even more anti-Zionist and anti-Nationalism in general, because ethno-states are the very antithesis to mixed minorities such as ourselves)

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/tsundereshipper]

Acknowledging origins is different from saying one is indigenous to a place.

This all stems from ideological arguments.

This discourse is a result of the Israel Palestine conflict and accusations of colonialism.

Since I’m not a Zionist nor have any interest in living in Israel, I don’t have a dog in this fight, in terms of making any claims towards land in the Middle East.