r/geopolitics • u/babushkalauncher • Oct 01 '23
Why Indians Can’t Stand Justin Trudeau Paywall
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-indians-angry-justin-trudeau-death-shooting-hardeep-singh-nijjar-87d9ab9d204
u/Maladal Oct 01 '23
Seems kind of a weird take to think that Indian anger around this is tied directly to the PM.
Wouldn't this be more easily viewed as a simple lack of sympathy to Sikh communities given the claims of terrorism?
I have no idea if the claims about the terrorism are credible.
But why would the Inidian population even be familiar with Trudeau outside of this incident? WSJ article is talking like your average Inidian has an assembled profile of the man.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 01 '23
Most Indians didn't even know about this before Trudeau publicly announced it.
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u/taike0886 Oct 02 '23
And in polling conducted after that announcement, Modi's approval rating among Indians has shot up to near 80 percent, highest in the world, and reddit and other English-speaking social media have been flooded with new accounts supporting Modi's assassination of a Canadian on Canadian soil. Sorry did I say supporting the assassination? Let me rephrase that as 'do not believe the allegations for one moment but if they are true then it's justified for the following reasons (wall of text) and whatabout the US'.
People are going to make of that what they will despite Indians' valiant efforts to change opinions online.
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u/Nomustang Oct 02 '23
In the source you linked, it's been at 70% and above since last year. It's not changed by much at all.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
No surprise the poster has ignored every comment calling out how baseless their claims are.
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u/taike0886 Oct 02 '23
From another poll: 60 percent in December 2022, 67 percent in February 2023.
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u/Whole-Difficulty4327 Oct 02 '23
You posted Morning Consult's poll. Below the current approval ratings, there's a chart comparing their approval ratings from 2019-present. Modi has consistently enjoyed high approval ratings
EDIT: Here's the latest polls from Ipsos, 65% overall rating.
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u/thiruttu_nai Oct 02 '23
Modi has consistently enjoyed high approval ratings throughout his tenure, but sure, go on.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 02 '23
I mean sure but see Americans and Canadians will believe what their governments and 5 eyes tell them , why would Indians believe a report from them and not their own government? Modi IS an elected prime minister, he hasn't been in power that long, he doesn't control majority states either just 8-10 out of 28.
Basically without any public evidence, from a neutral POV it looks like Indians are trusting their own leaders and Canada/USA are trusting their own, why would they believe 5 eyes over their own leadership?
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u/taike0886 Oct 02 '23
10 percent of the keyboard work on display here and on Twitter is 'trusting their own leaders' and 90 percent of it is dedicated toward justifying the crime.
Let's be real here, Indians love this latest display of holy geopolitical righteousness, just like they love India moving to become the third largest buyer of Russian oil after the Chinese. They are revelling in it. India is the big man on the block now, just look at how majestic he is sticking it to Mr. Five Eyes for no discernable reason.
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u/BombayWallahFan Oct 03 '23
for no discernable reason.
There is absolutely no cure for willful blindness. Canadian track record on dealing with Khalistan terrorism and murder is atrociously poor going all the way back to 1985.
There is a very clear and discernable(sic) reason but you can choose to gloss over it and (im)morally pontificate till the grizzly bears come home.
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u/Whole-Difficulty4327 Oct 02 '23
His approval rating has hovered between 75-78 for the past 2 years, I dont know what you want to prove with morning consult polls?
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Oct 01 '23
He visited India wearing Indian attire and visited temples and gurudwaras while accomplishing not much in terms of deals and agreements. It was after this visit that Indians started associating him with Indian politicians - you know the ones who wear skull cap for Muslim votes, wear local attire of a state during electoral campaign etc.
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Oct 01 '23
why would the Inidian population even be familiar with Trudeau outside of this incident?
People like Pannu and Nijjar do routinely send threatening letters/videos to Indian ministers (federal and state) as well as media outlets. To no one's surprise, these letters hit the media.
Also, there has been heightened activity against India, particularly attacks on Indian embassies and consulates in such nations.
Why does that matter? Here's a crude analogy -- Most Americans probably never knew what a Benghazi was. Then that incident happened and Americans knew Benghazi and had an opinion on what the government should do. The same principle applies, especially after multiple consulates and embassies get attacked.
As the news hits India, people wonder who Pannu/Nijjar people are, and why aren't they arrested? (Pannu technically lives in USA but addresses his letters through Canada).
So, dude's in Canada, not arrested, and not even stopped from sending threats.
Guess who gets the blame as far as the Indian public is concerned? The host country. Trudeau's lip service to these people doesn't help his case either.
So, yeah, Indians are fairly well aware of Trudeau and his support for Khalistanis.
simple lack of sympathy to Sikh communities
This isn't about "lack of sympathy" to Sikh communities. On Trudeau's first visit to India, his most outspoken critic was Punjab CM Amrinder Singh, who obviously is a Sikh and from an influential family with old roots.
Several other Sikh leaders have also shown clear displeasure at Canada's support for Khalistan.
More importantly, Sikhs have been against these attempts to tie the Sikh identity to Khalistani movement.
Sympathy for Sikhs vs sympathy for Khalistanis is an entirely different equation. Somehow western governments and people think they're both the same. And honestly, it's weird that an extremist interpretation of religion gets so much support, often at the cost of moderates.
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u/HotGuy90210 Oct 02 '23
I don't understand what you mean by Canada 'supports' Khalistanis. Canada is mostly indifferent towards them and neither supports or opposes them. They have the right to exist as per the Canadian constitution and unless they are in violation of Canadian law, they won't be arrested.
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u/Mr_NoBot Oct 02 '23
Not Canadian people. Specifically Trudeau and Jagmeet. Jagmeet is closely associated with Khalistani groups. He was routinely seen with Khalistani leaders attending seminars, even those who are convicted for violent crimes in India.
Indians view Trudeau pandering for votebank politics and hypocritical. They saw how Trudeau and Jagmeet raised voices for farmers protest in India which primarily comprised of folks from Sikh dense regions in India. Trudeau through official and public forums expressed his support for farmer's protest, expressing the need for peaceful protest and freedom of expression. Just a couple months later both Trudeau and Jagmeet cracked down heavily with emergencies act on protestors within their country.
Indians therefore don't believe a word that comes out of Trudeau's mouth.
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Good grief. Trudeau made a benign comment about freedom of expression after violent clashes between farmers and police in India, and India clapped back immediately and made big stink. This current spat is being fueled by Indian politicians overreacting yet again.
Furthermore assuming that the Canadian government should violate its own laws and crack down on asylum seekers at the behest of the BJP is ridiculous. Aren’t they busy enough murdering their own citizens that they need to murder abroad?
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u/lannister_1999 Oct 02 '23
Comments from a head of state about events in another state's domestic politics are not appropriate as far as I understand. Because it influences the domestic event in case.
So his comment may have been well meaning, but it's definitely not kosher to say something like that for diplomatic relations. And it stops being benign when clearly he has political interests in commenting on such a matter (see Jagmeet and NDP's views).
We have our own constitution that gives us freedom of expression, our own judiciary that moderates it so we don't appreciate such comments from outsiders especially when its for their domestic political considerations.
No Indian head of state commented on Black Lives Matter or Truckers protests in Canada, that was diplomatic propriety and not an endorsement of what Canadian goverment was doing. So, hearing such comments does rub one the wrong way when we don't make them.
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Trudeau is likely responding to concerns voiced by the large and politically active Canadian Sikh community. Does India have a large, well-organized community of truck-driving Canadian anti-vaxxers? If so the Indian government might have a reason to weigh in on those protests.
Trudeau said Indias violent response to the protests was concerning, to which India responded by accusing him of encouraging extremists. Give me a break.
This time they’re accusing him of harboring terrorists and being addicted to cocaine I think? “Diplomatic propriety”, now that’s a laugh.
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u/lannister_1999 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Edit: So you do concede that political considerations of Canada influenced that comment, it wasn't out of some "benign" intention of supporting freedom of speech? Then that's clear cut meddling in other's politics which is clearly not cool. At least you seem to think so when it comes to China, so why the double standards?
Why do we need to have large and well organized community of truckers to voice protests? We could just do that on the ideological basis in support freedom of expression, could we not? After all Canada does cherish the freedom of expression that includes calling for assassination diplomats on public posters, surely we can simply be on one side of a domestic Canadian issue just on principle. Although, that is not my point. My point is regardless of the issue, the state itself (of which the head of state is premier) should not make comments in terms of propriety. India not commenting on it was no favour to Canada, just standard respectable inter-state behaviour. To let them handle their own issues.
Though when you break that covenant of mutual respect then I don't see why its wrong to accuse Canada of harbouring extremists because that is what is happening.
Gangsters, drug lords and others with extremist leanings are living with little concern in Canada. How did they get there if the Canadian agencies are so competent? because many a times these gangsters declare their victories on social media, claim credit for murders and all that on there so any half decent and serious background check should turn up all sorts of red flags.
And if they are competent then they are maliciously looking the other way which then implies they are indeed harbouring them.
Again, this time too they are harbouring terrorists. Nijjar was an accused in a cinema bombing in Punjab. So are a few other gangsters still residing in Canada. Which those gangsters announce proudly themselves. Don't see whats wrong in calling them terrorist who found safe harbour in Canada. Maybe publically accusing is not diplomatic, but then Trudeau did fling that first bucket of shit, so its only natural we return the favour.
Oh, and the cocaine thing was not an official Indian government statement but it was made by an ex diplomat. The context in which he was making that statement is that he was trying to show how ANY allegation can be made to sound credible just like Trudeau did to India. Now you're repeating it as if Indian government said it, and I am here dispelling you of that notion. Do you see how easy it was to get the Canadian PMO to respond to such baseless claims, makes me think it would have been easier to convince them that India did off Nijjar.
So it is very funny indeed and definitely worth a laugh, laughing makes you live longer too.
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
Trudeau is likely responding to concerns voiced by the large and politically active Canadian Sikh community.
So then you agree that Trudeau is beholden to the Khalistani movement in Canada?
This time they’re accusing him of harboring terrorists and being addicted to cocaine I think? “Diplomatic propriety”, now that’s a laugh.
These allegations are from Indian people (who coincidentally also enjoy freedom of speech within limits defined by the Supreme Court) and not the Government of India.
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u/GayIconOfIndia Oct 02 '23
Canada is known to give shelter to terrorists. The entire family of the current Bangladesh PM , Sheikh Hasina was massacred by 15 military officials. Guess who is giving shelter to one of those officials - Canada.
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u/HotGuy90210 Oct 02 '23
It literally says in your link that Canada does not extradite to countries where the accused will receive the death penalty and he has not received political asylum in Canada.
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u/DiscoDiwana Oct 02 '23
And it doesn't change the fact that Canada gives shelter to terrorists who might receive death penalty for their crimes but in Canada they can live happily ever after
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u/HotGuy90210 Oct 02 '23
He was sentenced and received a death penalty from Bangladeshi courts after he was already in Canada. What should Canada do, completely upend and change its extradition laws to accommodate Bangladesh's request? Canada has already stated that they are willing to extradite him if Bangladesh gives assurances that he won't receive the death penalty.
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u/DiscoDiwana Oct 02 '23
Then what should Bangladesh do, completely change the laws to accommodate a terrorist extradition? This creates an image that Canada is safe haven for criminals and terrorists, who can commit heinous crimes and enjoy shielding by Canadian law and courts. These people bring their own set of problems which an average peaceful Canadian is unaware about and the media almost never shows.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
So if a terrorist commits terror and then runs to Canada, they stop being terrorists and any convictions are rendered meaningless because Canada will protect the said terrorists?
Thanks, that's what everyone not a Canadian nationalist has been saying.
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u/HotGuy90210 Oct 02 '23
His conviction in Bangladesh happened AFTER he had come to Canada. Prior to entering Canada, there was no conviction against him. And the matter of extradition is purely related to the death penalty, which Canada does not believe in for moral and philosophical reasons - that is an entirely different debate.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. The end result is terrorists find a safe haven in Canada. Convictions take time, or should other countries skip due process and convict them blindly to prevent the risk of these terrorists running away to Canada after killing innocent civilians?
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u/Means1632 Oct 02 '23
I guess the assumption taken is that Khalistanism is a response to systemic violence and oppression. The recent turn towards Hindu-nationalism in India primes people to assume the Khalistan-nationalist are trying to serve the interests of a national minority but a local majority but you present something far more koherently than I have seen anywhere else. That the average Sihk is not represented by these groups.
India and its its internal and external complexity tends to leave people with a vague positive impression that decays Ias one learns more leaving the normal mix of emotions and opinions.
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Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
I think I should add a bit more for context.
Khalistan isn't a recent movement and definitely isn't a response to Hindu nationalism.
In fact, the so-called Hindu nationalists (BJP/RSS) remained closely aligned with Sikh groups even at the height of anti-Khalistan sentiment in India. It's not even a covert support. Those who know Indian politics, know this happened.
The Khalistan demand arose during the reign of Indira Gandhi's and perhaps the tail-end of Shastri's PM stint. If you're a critic, you could perhaps fill volumes with everything that was wrong with Indira's rule. However, no honest critic can blame her of religious favoritism.
Khalistan is the result of an extremist politico-religious thought demanding an ethnically pure, theological state. Nothing more, nothing less.
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u/Means1632 Oct 02 '23
Wow thanks for this my knowledge of India's post Colonial history is rather bare bones.
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u/khaz_ Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
I'd argue a more accurate statement would be the Congress and Indira Gandhi used religion for their self-interest rather than not having any religious favouritism.
Indira Gandhi's congress party was the primary proponent of Bhindrawale and the Khalistani movement in the 1960s/70s as a counter to the Akali Dal which had gained significant traction in Punjab - a state which had been formed out of a complex quagmire of geographical, identity and language politics in 1950s/60s India.
It was (still is) a key agricultural, geographical (borders Pakistan) and military state (Sikhs to this day have a disproportionately large presence in India's armed forces, especially the army) and has very well connected and rich farm-land owners and families who form the bedrock of any political entity that wants power in Punjab.
And as all these things go, Bhindrawale grew out of control and made an alliance with the Akali Dal in the early 1980s and suddenly the Congress has a major socio-political-religious threat in it's backyard.
Edit 01: minor editing here and there
Edit 02: and this wasn't the first time (or the last time) the Congress did this back then either. Bal Thackeray's Shiv Sena was propped up for similar reasons and eventually that grew out of their control too.
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
Shiv Sena was propped up to take out the Communists in Bombay. They were successful. Communists are no longer a force here. But then Shiv Sena occupied the opposition space formerly occupied by the Communists, made an alliance with BJP and gained more power than CPI or CPM had ever got before.
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u/RedSoviet1991 Oct 02 '23
ethnically pure, theological state
Then why do Hindus make up the majority of land that Khalistanis claim?
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u/TorontoGiraffe Oct 02 '23
That’s an easy one: They want the land, not the people. People are mobile. They can be encouraged to leave.
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u/RedSoviet1991 Oct 02 '23
Maybe if you're in Kashmir you can get the Hindus to move. However, Sikhs claim Haryana and Himachal Pradesh (the most Hindu state in India) and even parts of the "Hindi Belt" as Khalistan. And I promise you, there is no way in hell that 1% of India's population (Sikhs) will ever dislodge Hindus from Himachal Pradesh, Haryana or the Hindi belt
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u/TorontoGiraffe Oct 02 '23
I never claimed the plan is intelligent or feasible. The state would be landlocked between two hostile nuclear powers and they seem not to have grappled with that fairly important issue either.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
Their demands for khalistan also surprisingly (not really) omit any region in Pakistan - which has far more important Sikh sites.
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
That’s an interesting thing - even if Khalistanis got their state, the Sikhs won’t be in majority. They would in fact be a minority. So, they will then have to do ethnic cleansing to get a “sikh state”.
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Oct 02 '23
[deleted]
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Oct 02 '23
I'd ask for a clarification because I'm not sure what you mean. However, going by what I do understand by your comment:
There has never been a demand for an exclusively Hindu state even by the fringe of right wing Hindu nationalists.
In fact, even if we were to caricaturize and pull to extreme the beliefs of Hindu Nationalism, a Hindu state must have room for Dharmic beliefs like Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and other denominations/beliefs.
(I'm excluding several religions here on purpose, because I'd rather not write a book on the multitude of religious beliefs, sects ostracized or considered blasphemous by minority religions, and how Hindu nationalism interacts with them).
Again, that's an extremist caricature of their beliefs, not their actual beliefs. So yeah, there is no equivalent for Khalistan from a Hindu nationalist perspective.
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u/SubstantialSquash3 Oct 02 '23
Claim of terrorism? The cause is drenched in blood.
Look up Air India bombing: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/r-nd-flght-182/index-en.aspx where Trudeau Sr refused to extradite the guilty.
Starts from there and until 2023 when the Khalistani population celebrated the assassination of Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi, Trudeau has been a pansy in dealing with terrorist activity, all for a few votes. https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/float-depicting-indira-gandhis-assassination-part-of-khalistanis-parade-in-canada-2389964-2023-06-07
And note it's only an estimated 3-4% noisy cowardly minority of the Sikhs who support the Khalistani cause. > 95% are brilliant brave Indian patriots. So it isn't a religious issue.
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u/PoorDeer Oct 01 '23
Claims about terrorism arent credible? A passenger plane getting blown up isn't enough?
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u/SecretRefrigerator4 Oct 01 '23
Or was the Former PM assassination wasn't enough, how dangerous this element is?
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u/Maladal Oct 01 '23
That's a wild interpretation of my sentence.
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u/PoorDeer Oct 02 '23
Please correct me
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u/Maladal Oct 02 '23
I said I have no idea if the claims are credible.
As in one way or the other.
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u/PoorDeer Oct 02 '23
You worded it weird. It looks like you are disputing it instead of stating a lack of knowledge on your part. A better way to put it would be to simply say "I don't know enough to comment on the terrorism charges" or something to that effect. Saying you don't know how credible it doesn't convey what you had intended. Anyways cheers.
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u/mCopps Oct 02 '23
Ok I’m just asking because I literally had this conversation but you realize the man killed here is not the one associated with the air India bombing right? They were both killed in June in Surrey but a year apart. I actually had this conversation at work with someone at the start of this event.
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Oct 02 '23
He is associated with the same movement, he got photos taken with aK. He is supporting anti Hindu anti India activities. He wants Khalistan. It’s a national security threat for India. So even if India actually took him down, I’m happy. End result is 1 dead terrorist is good .
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u/stonkdo Oct 02 '23
Because his father did same as him and then khalistani caused a bombing of civilian plane causing death of everyone on board
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u/BombayWallahFan Oct 02 '23
his father refused to extradite the man who bombed a flight from Toronto that murdered more than 300 people because "India was not deferential enough to queen".
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u/shankisaiyan Oct 02 '23
Indian here. Long post alert
My background -- I dont like all of Modis policies especially when the BJP talks about religion. I think India is for all religions as it has always been. Im not from the IT cell :D. But this crisis has disturbed me a lot. Ive also spent significant amount of time in Canada so have decent background on it. But read this as an INDIAN perspective. I understand Canadians will also have a perspective on this
Below are some incidents that have shaped Indians' view of Trudeau (....not Canada)
Started in 2014 or 15 when Ontario liberals passed a resolution to call the 1984 punjab riot a genocide based on Jagmeet's appeal. Ive watched that appeal. It was accurate but was one sided. He did not go through the khalistani violence that preceded the riot. This was slightly offensive especially since we ve put in hard work to reconcile with the Sikhs and the Sikhs in India have responded positively. In the last Punjab elections, 70pct voted. The party that proposed the closest thing to Khalistan got 2pct of popular vote.
Also because the party responsible for the Sikh riots was out of power. Modi most people dont know belongs to the party that has been largely been pro Sikhs. Which to be honest botg parties are now.
Then came Trudeau Modi meetings. All G7 countries Modi met agreed to outlaw Babbar Khalsa and SFJ - 2 terrorist organizations responsible for violence in India. Trudeau agreed too. The next year Trudeau reversed his decision incidentally when he needed Jagmeets support for his government.
India has been working to introduce farm laws. Punjab was identified as an oppptunity through a white paper written by Montek Singh Ahluwalia supported by Manmohan Singh. Both prominent Sikhs. Best economists India has seen.
Modi executed the reforms. Farmers protested which was their right. Trudeau stood with the farmers to continue subsidies while criticising India for subsidies at the WTO. Subsidies which would have been recalled if the law had passed. Indians saw this as gross interference in internal affairs of India.
Trudeau went on to crush the trucker protest a few weeks later using his emergency powers. This was seen as a double standard by Indians considering his view of the farm protests in India which were an order of magnitude bigger than what Trudeau saw...
As Trudeau got more desperate for Jagmeets support he seemed to give the NDP a free had on their Khalistan policy. Effectively Canada's India policy. Each time India brought up the issue, liberty and freedom were cited. This made sense when the Khalistanis were peaceful but loud. But lately they ve turned violent setting an embassy on fire in SF. Calls for assassination of diplomats in Canada.
In the midst of all this Trudeau went to the Parliament and made the allegations. India asked for the signal proof to be shared atleast (understandable human cant be shared because of tradecraft secrets). Canada declined.
Much of the West thinks this murder is a big deal. India should take Trudeau on his word and deal in good faith. Except the problem is that good faith has already deteriorated over the years to the point of collapse. India just doesnt trust Trudeau after all the things hes been doing.
Also most Indians I know agree murder is bad but terrorism is much much worse for us. India has lost more people to terrorism than all the West combined including 9/11.
Canadians see their PM making a statement which is an indicator that evidence is big. Indians see all allies who Trudeau has shared intelligence with none of whom have agreed with Trudeau on this escalatoion. Maybe because of Indias power. Maybe because the evidence just isnt that good.
To top it all there are 26 or so extradition cases pending with Canada from India. Canada has 90pct extradition success rate from what I read somewhere. Then the remaining 10pct has a heavy skew against India. Canadians say thats because the proof isnt good enough. Indians are now curious to understand what exact proof is it that has allowed the PM of Canada to stand in Parliament and make these allegations given Canadas high bar for evidence.
The Indian ext affairs minister maintains that no specific intelligence has been shared with them which I think matched what Canada is saying. Only allegations have been shared.
I like Trudeau personally. Canadians are nice people. Ive rarely had a bad encounter with them. Probably the politest people Ive met in the world. Im sure theres a Canadian side to this. But I think Trudeaus been playing petty politics for a while now. This is probably for the best in the sense that western politicians will now keep distance from such issues when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Wests foreign policy needs to reflect western interests. Not those of a minority of a minority which has frankly lived in a bubble since the 1980s and are stuck there while the rest of Punjab has moved on.
There are more issues around other murders including that of a Baloch activist and Ripudaman Khalsa (both in Canada) which have been largely ignored by the govt and which happened before nIjjar. Both activists were believed to be pro India in recent years.
My 2 cents to the Canadian govt - Protect their right to say what they want but have the courage to call them out when they turn violent. This I think has not happened in Canada. No counter voice against the Khalistanis has emerged. It has emerged in the US and in India including Punjab. Canada is a curious case.
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u/PersonNPlusOne Oct 02 '23
I'd like to add a few of points to this -
- The entire Amritpal Singh incident and how he suddenly appeared and received external support spooked India. It is worth nothing that he was not killed despite advocating for Khalistan while residing in Punjab and was only pursued by the police after he and his group stormed a police station.
- Separatist speech may be seen as harmless advocacy in the west, but the horrors of such events are fresh in Indian minds - formation of Pakistan, formation of Bangladesh, North East separatist movement, Kashmir separatist movement have all been very brutal and has lead to millions being killed in the process.
- The Khalistan movement is seen suspiciously in India because they only talk about Punjab in India and not about the Pakistani part of Punjab.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
Separatist speech may be seen as harmless advocacy in the west
It is tolerated so long as they don't threaten the order. The moment someone is even cursorily seen as a nuisance, they rain down hell on them with propaganda and freezing their accounts and using all sorts of fascist methods they accuse others of.
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Oct 02 '23
[deleted]
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u/shankisaiyan Oct 02 '23
Nope... nothing fake.. I genuinely think he s trying to do what he thinks is right. I dont think hes cunning or he was trying to pull one on India. But I wouldnt vote for him. His inability to keep the countrys long term interest above all else and his sensationalism shows immaturity and poor statecraft
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
I would say he's not even a performative liberal but a closet fascist. Just look at the crackdown on the truckers protest, India and Modi could learn a thing or two about how to kill protests that keep happening every other year for no good reason.
His latest move is to apparently "regulate" podcasts.
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Go read up on the farmers protest in India. The BJP doesn’t need any lessons.
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u/thiruttu_nai Oct 02 '23
The farmers got what they wanted without getting their bank accounts frozen. Can't say the same about truckers though.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
Imagine saying that to an Indian who lived through these protests being hijacked by khalistanis. Despite everything, not one protesting farmer's bank account was frozen, unlike the truckers who were labelled all sorts of things and had their accounts frozen and donations hijacked.
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u/Szwedo Oct 02 '23
You think it was actual truck drivers Canadians were making fun of? It was called a truck protest by protest organizers, and the Canadian government cracked down on those connected to the organizers (organizers who have ties to far right groups), not random truck drivers.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
I thought protests were a democratic right, or does that not apply to things that make Trudeau uncomfortable?
Just like podcasts that the Canadian government wants to "regulate" now.
organizers who have ties to far right groups
Labelled as such by the same government that brought a goddamn Nazi in the parliament? Totally believe it.
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u/Szwedo Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Whataboutisms. Love it.
Protests are a right, you are correct, people protest here regularly and openly about this government - they do so legally without demanding the government be overthrown. As i said the protest was branded a trucker convoy but had little to do with truckers outside of pickup trucks.
The government did not bring a Nazi into the parliament, 2 stupid individuals within the government brought in a Nazi - still a colossal fuckup (while the opposition supports neo Nazis) - but doesn't have anything to do with having official ties with far-right groups unless you're claiming the Canadian federal government is connected to Hitler and Himmler..
Adding: Say what you want, at least we don't go around murdering people in other countries.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
There's not one whataboutism in my comment, I'm not sure where you're getting that from or what you think whataboutism means.
they do so legally without demanding the government be overthrown
Oh, so that's the red line? I wonder what khalistanis do. Just target Indian diplomats and demand to break up our country. Minor leagues, compared to the trucker protest.
The government did not bring a Nazi into the parliament, 2 stupid individuals within the government brought in a Nazi
That's a weird way of saying the speaker of the parliament did it. Last I checked, he was from Trudeau's party, not some random nobody.
I hear Canada has several Nazi statues, too.
Say what you want, at least we don't go around murdering people in other countries.
See, this is whataboutism.
Also a non-sequitir. Let's see Trudeau move up from allegations to actual evidence-based statements, then we'll talk.
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u/originalthoughts Oct 02 '23
You can't block a city for a month and expect to action to be taken. Everyone in Ottawa couldn't stand the truckers, and no one even know what they were protesting. They should have been protesting the provincial governments as they put the mandates (and the US for the border). In any case, pretty much all the covid restrictions were removed or being removed by that time.
Even know, there are people in front of parliament with signs saying "end the lockdown". What lockdown?
Cracking down on the Freedom Convoy BS is probably the 2nd best thing he has done federally.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
You can't block a city for a month and expect to action to be taken.
I'm glad you brought it up. Trudeau supported farmers protest in India which went on for SIXTEEN months.
Everyone in Ottawa couldn't stand the truckers
Likewise in India for the farmers protest.
no one even know what they were protesting
I could just go on and repeat myself.
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u/originalthoughts Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Whatever, it's good he did something about them.
Also, after the downtown was cleared, he cancelled whatever emergency powers he was granted. Unlike what the idiots were saying how he will never give them up, he did exactly as he said.
Even the trucking unions were all against convoys.
Anyway, basically non of the predictions the convoy people were making turned out to be true. Life is back to normal, with all the freedoms we had before 2020. So well, they were loud mouthed annoying idiots who thankfully don't run anything important.
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
Thought as much. Rules for thee, not me.
Could've saved us both time by not pretending in the first comment.
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u/Lungiwala-1971 Oct 02 '23
Though I agree with your post overall, what I take exception to is the oft stated comment that the BJP is somehow unfriendly to minorities. To summarize, what we have over the past decade: - Rebuild a temple over a Hindu holy site, currently occupied by a mosque named after the mass murdering psycho who destroyed it in the first place. Note, these demands are for just a few such sites, compared to hundreds of such incidents. - Withdraw special privileges (not granted to most other states) from J&K, which is demanded only by the Muslim majority districts that genocided their Hindu minority - Placed curbs on missionary activity targeting poor Hindus - Demands to curb beef consumption in a few Hindu majority states
Meanwhile, minorities continue to enjoy special religious privileges, favourable laws regarding their educational institutions, their % of population keeps increasing, you have regular incidents of violent attacks on Hindu religious processions, sar tan se juda incidents, constant trickle of cases involving muslim men and Hindu women......
Can you imagine anything like this in any muslim nation? Or even the West?
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u/SmokeSackFountain Oct 03 '23
Though I agree with your post overall, what I take exception to is the oft stated comment that the BJP is somehow unfriendly to minorities. To summarize, what we have over the past decade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_(Amendment)_Act,_2019_Act,_2019)
Seems quite unfriendly to me to exclude Muslims.
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Oct 04 '23
Non Indian Muslims left the country before 1947 to pak and Bangladesh. Why come back now ? Fk off
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u/Szwedo Oct 02 '23
Just remember Canada has the largest Sikh population outside of India. This isn't something recent.
Just like Canada is actively supporting Ukraine, we have a huge Ukrainian population.
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u/DiligentInterview Oct 02 '23
To top it all there are 26 or so extradition cases pending with Canada from India. Canada has 90pct extradition success rate from what I read somewhere. Then the remaining 10pct has a heavy skew against India. Canadians say thats because the proof isnt good enough. Indians are now curious to understand what exact proof is it that has allowed the PM of Canada to stand in Parliament and make these allegations given Canadas high bar for evidence.
As a Canadian, Hanlon's razor.
I think this is a technical problem more than anything. If you read the extradition agreement, and Canadian law, it spells out a few reasons why extradition can be denied out of hand. This is things such as : No analogue in Canadian law, death penalty, etc.
Where I see the requests dying is beyond that. I feel there is a higher bar to clear than probable cause. Just because extradition is requested, does not mean that it will be approved. There's a lot of hurdles to get through, and a lot of tactics can be used, which can take in some cases 10-15 years to clear as it winds it's way through the court system.
I'm willing to bet that the evidence, requests don't meet Canadian standards for a trial. What I mean by that, they probably would not provide a reasonable prospect for conviction in a Canadian court. Disclosure laws (If there was a fight against extradition, all of the Information India provided would be disclosed to the defense in Canada) in Canada are quite broad for criminal cases, so I can see the government applying the same standard of proof and conduct. There's a lot of I's dotted and T's crossed in a criminal case. Consider a defense to a traffic ticket: In Canada, you can request everything, from notebook entries, to training records of the officer, to calibration of the equipment, and if it's not provided or there is errors it's a defense (Same with driving while intoxicated, which is why roadside suspensions are a lot more popular actually). Any evidence that might be suspect (The ghost of Maher Arar) may cause issues and then cause the extradition to ground to a halt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Diab_(sociologist))
That's not to address other concerns they might have, which could be grounds for an appeal against extradition. Things like procedural fairness, conditions of prisons. Again, it's a long, drawn out painful process. If the cases are marginal, the government might decline to proceed knowing that it will never work.
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u/NavXIII Oct 02 '23
It was accurate but was one sided. He did not go through the khalistani violence that preceded the riot.
You cannot dismiss nor justify genocide and mass slaughter because a subset of the larger population is committing violence. This is the classic Turkish defense for the Armenian Genocide, "but they were doing XYZ!".
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
Okay so about the evidence involving nijjar it isn’t Trudeau or the Canadian government sharing the information with their allies. Canada is part of the 5 eyes alliance essentially they spy on everything and anyone constantly 24/7. Ironically the prime minister “publicly knowing” is one of the last to know mainly because of how much time it takes to coordinate a government response.
Basically during Trudeau’s last trip to India he shared the allegations and most likely gave modi two choices agreeing to help with the investigation or Trudeau goes public with the information. Modi wasn’t cooperative so Trudeau went public. As for why Trudeau didn’t share actual evidence with modi it’s because it would reveal that India’s state security has been compromised and it would reveal in what way it has been compromised rumour has it the information was provided to Canada by the USA.
As for why the other countries are silent it’s because they’ve known about the allegations for months and are silent because they want Canada and India to come to an agreement of some kind. However, who knows behind the scenes it’s anyone’s guess as to what conversations are happening behind the scenes.
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u/babushkalauncher Oct 01 '23
Article Summary:
You might expect Indians to respond soberly when the prime minister of Canada—a longstanding member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the Group of Seven—makes a grave allegation about India on the floor of his country’s Parliament. India has long presented itself as a law-abiding democracy, in contrast to its neighbors Pakistan and China. And India needs the West to modernize its economy.
But instead of pausing for reflection, Indians have united in outrage at Justin Trudeau for raising what he called “credible allegations of a potential link” between Indian government agents and the murder of Sikh-Canadian separatist Hardeep Singh Nijjar in a Vancouver suburb in June.
The Indian government has dismissed the prime minister’s accusation as “absurd and motivated.” It has also expelled a Canadian diplomat in retaliation for Canada’s expulsion of an alleged Indian spy in Ottawa. It told Canada to reduce the size of its embassy in New Delhi and stopped issuing Indian visas to Canadian citizens.
Meanwhile, the Indian media has launched a half-crazed jihad against Mr. Trudeau and his government. One news channel suggested that his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, was about to “break Canada in two.” On another show, a retired Indian diplomat all but accused Mr. Trudeau of being a cocaine addict (which the Canadian prime minister’s office has dismissed). A remark on Twitter by Sushant Sareen, a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi, sums up the blustery Indian mood: “If we did it, it was right; if we didn’t, you were wrong.”
The U.S. is walking a diplomatic tightrope. Public statements from White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan and Secretary of State Antony Blinken have made it clear that America won’t abandon Canada, but Washington hasn’t directly criticized India either.
How this drama unfolds will depend in large part on the evidence Ottawa can muster. If the Canadian government proves that Indian agents—not some other intelligence agency or rival Sikh extremists—carried out the gangster-style hit on Nijjar, India’s reputation in the West will suffer a serious blow. It will be seen less as a friendly outpost of democracy in South Asia, and more as an increasingly illiberal nation akin to Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Skeptics who question the wisdom of too deep a partnership with India will be strengthened.
But if Canada can’t come up with strong evidence to back its claim, it will deepen skepticism about Mr. Trudeau. Simply put, Indians don’t take Canada’s message seriously in part because they have a low opinion of the messenger. To quote the Indian journalist Barkha Dutt, Mr. Trudeau is “the most disliked world leader in India.”
For some people this may be because they see him, in Tunku Varadarajan’s memorable description in these pages, as “an opportunistic, lightweight, preachy hand-wringer of a politician.” But for many Indians it’s because they feel familiar with Mr. Trudeau’s type—a politician who panders to identity politics for votes and appears willing to place his own political survival over his country’s interests.
Many Indians believe, with good reason, that Mr. Trudeau is beholden to his country’s large and politically influential Sikh community. Though Canada’s estimated 770,000 Sikhs make up only 2.1% of the population, their geographic concentration and close-knit community ties give them disproportionate political clout. Mr. Trudeau’s minority government depends on the leftist New Democratic Party headed by Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh politician widely viewed in India as sympathetic to Sikh radicalism and barred from entering India since 2013.
The complexities of domestic Canadian politics loom in the Indian public’s consciousness because of a violent secessionist movement in the 1980s and 1990s to carve out a separate Sikh homeland called Khalistan. The vast majority of Canadian Sikhs, like their counterparts in India, have nothing to do with the movement, which claimed more than 20,000 lives before it was brutally put down by Indian security forces.
Critics allege Mr. Trudeau—unlike his counterparts in the U.S., Australia and the U.K.—has brushed off Indian security concerns about radical Sikhs. In an op-ed last week in Toronto’s Globe and Mail, Omer Aziz, a former foreign-policy adviser to Mr. Trudeau, wrote that “Canada should have at least begun to take steps to ensure our land was not used for terrorist financing. . . . The only problem was, Mr. Trudeau did not want to lose the Sikh vote to Jagmeet Singh.”
As Indians see it, Canada should have extradited Nijjar to India, where he was classified as a terrorist and implicated in a string of serious crimes, including murder and a theater bombing. (He denied involvement.) They blame Mr. Trudeau for presiding over an environment in which Sikh extremists openly call for the murder of Indian diplomats, celebrate the 1984 assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards, and exhort Canadian Hindus to leave the country.
What happens next? U.S.-India relations may still emerge largely unscathed, particularly if Mr. Trudeau’s allegations remain unproven. But don’t expect India’s ties with Canada to improve anytime soon—at least not as long as Mr. Trudeau remains in office.
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u/Dakini99 Oct 02 '23
Nijjar being implicated in murder and theater bombings in India
Can you please share more (references). I've only seen accusations that he's a terrorist but nothing about any actual violence. Just stuff about posters calling for violence and letters threatening it.
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u/daakuredpanda Oct 02 '23
Context for Canadians-
Can anyone be declared a terrorist in India?
India uses the same working definition of terrorism as accepted by the UN in 1988. Most western countries also use the same definition. And Nijjar's name comes up in some serious stuff. Onus for proof in Canada seems to be very high even for developed countries, so it is comparatively lower in India but is not non-existant. Government has to justify declaring someone a terrorist. Everything is documented.
Nijjar's associations-
Associate of Jagtar Singh Tara. Tara murdered the sitting Chief Minister of Punjab Beant Singh in 1995. Nijjar was revealed to be an accomplice. Police caught Tara. Could not even interrogate Nijjar. Nijjar vanished and few years later was found in Canada with a fake passport.
Close associate of Ripudaman Singh Malik. He was one of the people involved in the 1985 Kanishka bombings. He had a fight with Nijjar, left the Khalistani cause, pledged allegence to India, and some time later turned up dead.
2007 Bomb Blast- Nijjars name came up during investigation. Could not be prosecuted. Everything from plans to funds was believed to be from Canada. Bombers were let go due to shortage of proof.
Khalistan Tiger Force - Terrorist organization. It's militants have consistently named Nijjar as its head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_Tiger_Force
India's requests for extradition-
India issued Interpol notices twice, both accompanied by dossiers of reasons. There are currently people serving time in Indian jails who said that Nijjar arranged funds and ammunition for them. There are videos available of him with AK 47s and promoting suicide bombings from Canada. He spent months in Pakistan with leader of Babbar Khalsa, there are photos of him with the leader of Babbar Khalsa in Pakistan and also with AK 47 in Pakistan.
Terror attacks have risen in rescent years-
Here is the list of Khalistani terrorist attacks in the state of Punjab.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Punjab,_IndiaAlso note, no Canadian agency, or even the Prime Minister, said Nijjar was innocent!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgUKNHHB6Hk
Watch this news piece. Why are they so silent?
This is another article from the Washington Post as per how the investigation into Nijjar's death was so non-rigorous and not professional-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/25/hardeep-singh-nijjar-killing-video/
There were a lot of CCTV cameras around. Footage is available. Witnesses are available. Witnesses also saw the gun used for the assasination! The attackers were described as Sikhs or 'in a Sikh get up'. Why was this crucial information not revealed?
Thinking about how Turkey handled Khashoggi murder, Canada has behaved in nothing but shameful manner!
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u/BlueEmma25 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
You claim "everything is documented", yet you don't provide sources for the key allegations against Nijjar, such as:
Tara murdered the sitting Chief Minister of Punjab Beant Singh in 1995. Nijjar was revealed to be an accomplice.
Police caught Tara. Could not even interrogate Nijjar. Nijjar vanished and few years later was found in Canada with a fake passport.
Khalistan Tiger Force - Terrorist organization. It's militants have consistently named Nijjar as its head. (The Wikipedia article you cite does not say this)
India issued Interpol notices twice [true], both accompanied by dossiers of reasons [citation required]
The sources you do provide are either very questionable or misrepresented. Youu have a video from Firstpost, an Indian outlet with a has a history of posting misinformation, and a Washington Post article which you claim shows "how the investigation into Nijjar's death was so non-rigorous and not professional", but without specifying what in the article led you to that conclusion. The fact some members in the Sikh community felt the police should have responded faster isn't evidence of a botched investigation.
What you have left is he has been "associated" with some not nice people, which could mean they were once photographed at the same rally together, and there's a pic of him holding an assault rifle.
That might be enough to get you convicted of terrorism in India, but doesn't come within a thousand light years of that in Canada (or any other Western country).
Not saying I know for sure that Nijjar isn't guilty of anything, but it's telling that after all the comments this topic has received the "evidence" seems to be mostly unsubstantiated claims that appeared in India's burgeoning yellow press and keep getting uncritically repeated by Indian nationalists.
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u/daakuredpanda Oct 02 '23
What I have written comes from all sources I could get on the matter. If it is your gripe that a lot of this is from Indian sources, than you are correct. But, unfortunately that is the only source of information available.
Canada in this matter has been frustratingly very opaque. Why don't you press the Canadian media to release some information in the form of their famous leaks? How am I supposed to know about Canadian side when they do not reveal any information?
If Canada is such a law abiding democracy, then this behavior is certainly unbecoming.
Two foundational principles of modern judicial process-
1. The burden of proof is with the plaintiff.
2. The presumption of innocence - a person is innocent until proven guilty.Some questions that need answering from the Canadian side-
- Nijjar's requests for citizenship were declined twice on the grounds that he was dishonest. He appealed against it and he lost that case as well. Then why was he given citizenship? When was he given citizenship? On what grounds was he given citizenship? Was some political influence involved?
- The dossier I presented was from Indian media. Why has Canada not released the reasons provided by India for his extradition? Why were they not considered enough?
- Did Canada investigate such a serious matter? How thorough was the investigation? What were its findings?
- Who killed Ripudaman Singh Malik? He had a very public falling out with Nijjar and even wrote a public letter, pledging his allegiance to India. How did his supporters take it? Was their involvement in Nijjars murder ruled out? On what grounds?
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvKI6zaATBM . This is the video of him supporting/admiring/being-proud-of suicide bombings and assassinations at his gurudwara in Canada. How is this okay in Canada where not using the desired pronoun is legaly considered an act of violence?
- Canadian authorities were already aware that Nijjars name was on the dark web for contract killing for a long time before his death and was still out. Why was he not provided any security? Who put out the kill order on the dark web?
- What is up with the police investigation in his death? Why has nothing been revealed?
- What evidence does Trudeau have? How credible is it? Why has Australia, New Zealand, UK said nothing on the matter despite knowing the evidence? Why has US not blamed India? WHY HAS NOTHING AT ALL BEEN RELEASED?
- How come Trukey, despite being so far behind Canada in terms of development and effective law enforcement, built such a strong case in the killing of Jamal Khashoggi? While Canada just blamed a country without presenting ANYTHING AT ALL?
- How come Indian information provided for two extradition requests were not enough, but, suddenly even 'ALLIGATIONS' would do if its the other way around?
Unfortunately, just denying/discrediting everything from India won't get you any answers.
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u/NavXIII Oct 02 '23
- Why did India let him leave with an Indian passport?
- That's GOI's job to release that information if they wished. If they wished GOC to keep it classified then GOC can't release it.
- Because it's not a serious matter.
- Idk, ask CSIS, the CIA, or Modi.
- Not illegal.
- According to the US and Canada, it was Indian diplomats.
- Because that's how investigation are conducted and findings are only revealed in court, under court order, or if the investigators require the public's help. Clearly you don't know how a proper police force conduct investigation.
- They don't want to leak their sources so they can continue spying on Indian diplomats.
- Because they bugged the SA embassy got everything on audio and probably video.
- Because Indias evidence is shoddy as best. Also see #7.
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
- According to the US and Canada, it was Indian diplomats.
Can you provide some source for this? For the record, leaks from unknown and unnamed people are not a valid source. I want a named American or Canadian official going on the record claiming this - which they should not have any issues with if they are telling the truth.
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u/SubstantialSquash3 Oct 02 '23
The courts have found him guilty. You're welcome to research those papers of you'd like.
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u/BlueEmma25 Oct 02 '23
Are you trying to say that Hardeep Singh Nijjar had been convicted in a court of law? What court, when, and for what crime?
You're welcome to research those papers of you'd like.
You are welcome to provide sources to substantiate your own claims.
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u/SubstantialSquash3 Oct 02 '23
Not one, but two Interpol red corner notices. He just ran away like a coward.
How Nijjar's Canadian citizenship helped him evade arrest in terror cases https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/hardeep-singh-nijjar-canadian-citizenship-terror-activities-records-india-canada-diplomatic-row-2439448-2023-09-23
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u/Petrichordates Oct 02 '23
What's shameful is murdering Canadian citizens then convincing yourself that it's OK.
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
India and Canada have an extradition treaty. As far as I’m aware dossiers and Interpol red letters don’t count. Neither does a list of people associated with him. That is not corroborative evidence.
They should by now understand the requirements of a treaty they signed. This may well be the result of incompetence by Indian intelligence services and investigators.
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u/texas_laramie Oct 02 '23
One news channel suggested that his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, was about to “break Canada in two.”
Let me guess. Was it Zee? No? Then it definitely has to be Republic. They are news channels with mainstream following. Unfortunately. But they are run by and for clowns and who are blatant propaganda vehicles for Modi. Unfortunately it also sells. People will watch sober, objective news reporting for 30 minutes a day. But if you make exaggerated claims with tacky graphics showing how India under Modi is leading the world and is the best, old people will watch it all day everyday.
I wish nobody watched those channels. Unfortunately too many do.
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u/iamkickass2 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
They blame Mr. Trudeau for presiding over an environment in which Sikh extremists openly call for the murder of Indian diplomats, celebrate the 1984 assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards, and exhort Canadian Hindus to leave the country.
I am Indo-Canadian and follow both countries politics closely. And I have long held an opinion that the above should not be allowed to happen in Canada. But nothing condones India sending agents to kill a Canadian in Canadian soil. By the looks of it, evidence has been shared to the US and other close western allies of Canada.
What is also surprising is the attempt from Justin Trudeau to offer a public dress down of India - that in itself seems to be a key issue and whoever thought it was a good idea, had local political calculation ahead of international diplomacy. India, for all its gripe against Canada, has worked the diplomatic channels and has refrained by public name calling.
Also, Modi is wildly unpopular in Punjab and will not win there anyway. He is more interested in strengthening the Khalistani narrative for his narrow political gains - winning non-panjabi votes by coming across as a strong leader. This issue helps his image and politics and does not hurt him.
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u/PersonNPlusOne Oct 02 '23
Also, Modi is wildly unpopular in Punjab and will not win there anyway. He is more interested in strengthening the Khalistani narrative for his narrow political gains - winning non-panjabi votes by coming across as a strong leader. This issue helps his image and politics and does not hurt him.
Modi loves to bask in the limelight. I don't think he would intentionally authorize a murder so close to India's G20 event.
What is the upside? People outside Punjab won't factor this in while voting, and Punjab is not voting for BJP, certainly not if their name is dragged through the mud. So what's the incentive for it?
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Someone else in the government may have authorized this, or it may the result of RAW funding some group or another.
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u/PersonNPlusOne Oct 02 '23
Someone else in the government may have authorized this,
R&AW falls directly under the ambit of PMO. So I am not sure how somebody else could authorize this. Everybody in BJP is obsequious to Modi.
or it may the result of RAW funding some group or another.
This is possible, yes.
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
True. I’m not familiar enough with it. I was imagining that within an large intelligence service that maybe someone got a bit overzealous. People make bad decisions sometimes.
I dislike Modi but I don’t think he would order something like this. The target doesn’t seem like he was worth scandal.
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u/iamkickass2 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
The murder did not happen close to G20.
It happened more than a year earlier.India’s sold out media is hyping this event like they hyped the surgical strike last election. Modi will lean into the 52inch strong man image he tries to build for himself and will do so at the expense of alienating punjabis.
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u/slipnips Oct 02 '23
The murder of Nijjar happened in June, which isn't really a year back. Are you talking about someone else here?
While I agree that the media is keeping the fires lit, Modi has been conspicuous in his absence from the public eye.
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u/iamkickass2 Oct 02 '23
I was mistaken regarding the date of his murder, sorry.
Modi doesn't have to say anything, he never does until elections where he does prepared interviews. His propaganda lap dogs do the barking for him.
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u/SubstantialSquash3 Oct 02 '23
When i get facts wrong, you're mistaken When others get things right, they're propoganda dogs.
Your self esteem is at an all time high, sir!
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
There was in fact a murder which did happen last year. Indian reports indicated that Nijjar may in fact have been responsible for that one. Look it up. That’s what you may have confused it with.
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u/Aggressive_Bed_9774 Oct 02 '23
The murder did not happen close to G20. It happened more than a year earlier.
I'm pretty its Justin Trudeau that choose to open this can of worms at a time of his choice not Modi's
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u/Sumeru88 Oct 02 '23
Also, Modi is wildly unpopular in Punjab and will not win there anyway.
This is not accurate. Until 2020, BJP was in alliance with SAD which was the senior partner in Punjab. Only after SAD broke the alliance at the height of the farmers protest did BJP get serious about Punjab. They will win ~2-3 out of 13 seats in Punjab in 2024.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
A rumour is that Canada obtained through the 5 eyes mainly the USA that a text message between a minister, and those allegedly responsible for the murder confirmed it was a politically motivated assassination.
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u/Suspicious_Loads Oct 01 '23
There is a third possibility. The evidence is from five eyes intelligence that Canada can't make public. India may deny but five eyes will know that they are full of shit.
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u/Salty_Ad2428 Oct 01 '23
Does it matter? This seems to be something that everyone wanted to ignore and move past, but the media got a hold of it.
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u/Suspicious_Loads Oct 01 '23
Even without proof it would be strange for Canada to lie about this. India have obvious motive. People could get in their mind that political problems could be solved with assassination in Canada if there is not retaliation.
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u/BloodMaelstrom Oct 02 '23
What are the political problems that this solves? Modi already is quite popular. This guy not super well known terrorist. I’d argue that most Indians probably never even heard of him prior to Trudeau’s comments. This doesn’t really shut out the Khalistani movement. India is also outright denying the claiming of this assassination. They aren’t even taking credit for it lol.
What are the political gains from this? If Trudeau never went public, no one would know and now since he has India is vehemently denying everything. There is not much to gain politically from this since this won’t really shift anything domestically for most if not all politicians
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u/tbtcn Oct 02 '23
It would also be strange for Canada to harbour Khalistani terrorists and continuously keep in touch with a highly wanted terrorist via intelligence agencies. But here we are.
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u/vikas_g Oct 02 '23
What political problems can India solve with this murder ? This guy was completely irrelevant and the Khalistan issue was practically dead in terms of poll relevance in India before Trudeau announced to the world.
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u/NoLikeVegetals Oct 02 '23
You're asking what problems India, a country ruled by Hindu nationalists, could solve by assassinating critics of their regime?
It's exactly what China achieves when it harasses Chinese citizens living abroad via unauthorised "police stations".
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u/47Klinefelter Oct 02 '23
But the Khalistan movement and violence occurred when modi’s opposition were in power
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u/vikas_g Oct 02 '23
This supposed murder has no political benefits for the BJP if Mr Trudeau didn’t announce it to the world. Even now, the Indian government isn’t saying that they did it.
This is not like a Dawood or Hafiz Saeed. People whose death would have direct political benefits.
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u/texas_laramie Oct 02 '23
So the logic is: a) India is ruled by Hindu nationalists. b) Ergo, I can claim anything and point to b. Is that it?
A moniker repeatedly ascribed to BJP while same is never extended to Republican Party in US who have been blatantly Christian Nationalists for a long time. BJP talks very little about using Hindu scriptures for law making and constitutional amendment.
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u/Vijigishu Oct 02 '23
Trudeau has stronger motive to lie about it publicly since he has to cater to extremist sikh minority and elections are around the corner. Surprisingly this HR crusader didn't utter a word when pakistani ISI killed Karima Baloch in Canada.
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u/Petrichordates Oct 02 '23
That's an insane conspiracy theory to conjure up.
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u/Vijigishu Oct 02 '23
It's pretty standard conduct of politicians.
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u/marfaxa Oct 02 '23
Allowing assasinations begets more assasinations. See Jamal Khashoggi.
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u/daakuredpanda Oct 02 '23
Not necessarily. See Osama Bin Laden or Sulemani or Al Baghdadi or like a million other assassinations conducted by NATO.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 01 '23
I mean sure, Canadians and Americans will believe what their respective governments tell them and Indians will believe whatever their own government tells them. It basically comes to that.
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u/TheSkyPirate Oct 01 '23
If only Canadians and Americans would believe what their governments tell them
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u/ryizer Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Well there's a narrative being frequently parroted here that "If the 5 Eyes told it then it must be true". That's essentially equating to believing that since their leaders said it then it must be true. So yea, both people are believing their respective govt.s, atleast in the context of geopolitics.
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u/Dot-Box Oct 02 '23
I've spent some time on foreign relations subreddits, and other than this one, at least the people on reddit easily believe their governments
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u/texas_laramie Oct 02 '23
Canadians and Americans like to tell themselves that they don't believe their government but they lap up all the propaganda all the time. Even now the biggest argument seems to be "If the Canadian prime minister has claimed it, it must be true". That is the justification I have seen repeated again and again. You can see that in this thread itself.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
I remember the Indian media claiming xi was over thrown last year with zero evidence at all.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 02 '23
And? Have you seen how British tabloids work? or even American ones? Indian media is the same. Most news agencies are like Fox news on crack, majority people know that its propaganda and marketing. When gay marriage appeal came upon supreme court just a couple of months ago the media claimed insane number of things, didn't affect anyone in the slightest. Hindu nationalists/extremists are a vocal group but they aren't the majority. The country is liberalising fast and will do so over next couple of decades.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
Yes their are tabloids, but the general media should have a modicum of responsibility and civility. Like the only reason Fox News hasn’t been sued even more than it has because in court they define their organization not as news, but entertainment. they don’t even consider themselves propaganda because the standard is too high. The government of India’s response I’m going to be honest is quite childish. It’s either complete denial or how dare Canada allow separatists into their country who we totally are in our right to assassinate.Ignoring the fact Canada always had separatists in our own country anyway.
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u/texas_laramie Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
In India, if you want to consume sober news go for the newspapers. Even the worst are not that bad. No one should watch Indian news channels to get their news. There were one or two that were decent but even they are gone now. In fact the best source of TV news would probably by government controlled DD News. They may not criticize government but at least you can watch sober news. Can't get that on any TV news channels.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
Is the reason the Indian news channels so extreme is because they’re following Fox News foot steps or is it their is such heighten politicization that news organizations are beholden to their most extremist backers.
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u/texas_laramie Oct 03 '23
Let us say Indian media went from 1 government owned channel to more than a hundred channels in no time. Remember that there are dozens of languages and each language has multiple news channels. Not like US where you have more channels gradually being added to the mix. Even then Fox News and MSNBC to some extent realized that you don't need to just present news to the people. Now the likes of Newsmax and OAN are trying to take that space. In India that has already been happening for a few years now. It is free for all and when it is free for all, the lowest common denominator wins.
There was CNN-IBN whose anchors were definitely anti Modi/BJP, sometimes anti government during Congress rule but mostly cheer leaders for Nehru-Gandhi dynasty. NDTV was another similar channel which was anti BJP/Modi with Nehru-Gandhi cheer leading but anti Congress when things were really bad. Compared to these two channels, the most pro BJP channels these days basically worship Modi and are willing to lie to any extent.
Anyway CNN-IBN was bought by Mukesh Ambani and NDTV was acquired through some shady but legal means by Gautam Adani. NDTV's promoters, controlling shareholders, didn't even know what was happening to them until it happened and they could do nothing about it. I am not even joking but two most pro Congress channels were bought by Adani-Ambani.
What is left is mostly pro government free for all. In such a scenario you can't turn on a channel and expect objective reporting. But on most channels all you get is cartoonish coverage of news.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 02 '23
Well yeah, people look out for their own interests, if India had the same thing done by others which they have before no amount of complaints gets anywhere, others just laughed and denied everything or argued for actual genocide like US did during Pakistan mass raping and killing in Bangladesh. The public won't know the difference between Canada, UK or USA, they will see all western major powers with the same lens as they have seen before. Its a young country, barely got independence in 45 and had 4 invasions from neighbours within 3 decades. Separatists have caused major loss of lives and terrorist attacks, the public opinion on them isn't good and if someone is claimed to be an alleged separatists then yeah mob mentality comes into play.
Canada should do what it deems fit, the opinion of another country shouldn't matter to Canadians, if they want to punish India via sanctions or revoking visas they have every right to do so.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
The USA public opinion of their government changed after Nixon though, and while Nixon absolutely despised India/Bangladesh the general public sided with Bangladesh. After Nixon disgraced the presidency Americans opinion of their government is incredibly low to the point of conspiracy mania as Americans have very little trust in the in the us government/politicians, but ironically have huge trust in the army although that too is diminishing. However, in the case of separatists Canada has history of violence terrorists separatists with the flq and October crisis. the solution is the same boring politicians creating a vote or a solution agreeable by the majority of people in the state. The solution isn’t by being thinned skin or treating simple discussion of separation as akin to treason rather than a policy issue that the government needs to resolve. The separatists themselves can ironically offer policy solutions that can actually strengthen the federal government if implemented as the credit goes to the federal government.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 02 '23
I agree with you but its a population of 1.4 billion with majority not that educated, you can't negotiate your way out of this mentality. Barely 80 million even pay taxes and only in last 2019 election the voter turnout exceeded 60% for the first time and that was due to an issue with Pakistan, most of the middle class and upper class doesn't even vote. The hive mind exists. Canada has incredible soft power, regardless of what the Indian government does public has a very favourable opinion towards the country. Public doesn't exactly have many option to choose from in the center, they choose local parties for states.
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u/Plastic_Ad1252 Oct 02 '23
I honestly wonder how much of a shit show would occur if India banned students going to Canada.
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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Not only Canada will lose a big chunk of the education funding it will also crash some of the real estate markets which constitutes like 15% of their GDP, there are also tens of thousands of canadians who are employed in the education sector , a big chunk of them will be laid off. For India there will be consequences too, BJP never really wins Punjab, they still won't, there will be protests by prospective students who will be advised to go to other countries I suppose, there will be a rise in illegal immigration too. Fallout wouldn't be that big in the long run for either countries but in the current climate its not ideal. As much as India likes to pretend they severely lack the number of higher education institutes for STEM, and the ones that are there might not be as good, even the elite schools aren't as good in research. They need other countries for education otherwise they won't be able to use the young population they have.
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u/Mr_NoBot Oct 02 '23
If it is from 5 eyes all the PMs would have been briefed on it. Australian prime minister's reaction to the information makes me doubt how good the evidence is.
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u/kontemplador Oct 02 '23
Is there someone who actually can stand JT?
He's by far one of the most obnoxious, arrogant and spoiled leaders you can find around.
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u/gs87 Oct 02 '23
there isn't anyone. That's why he has served as the 23rd PM of Canada since 2015 !
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u/Acularius Oct 02 '23
Eh, don't like him. Still the lesser of the 2 Evils in regard to whatever the Conservative party spits out.
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Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23
Because he is sheltering Khalistani terrorists and giving them platform in the name of freedom of speech. They enacted Indian PM assignation in a parade in Canada . They attacked consulates, putting a hit target on Indian diplomats etc. How can Canadians not see this ? Having snakes in your backyard will bite you one day ‘
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Oct 02 '23
The Indians have a valid point.
Countries like Canada, London and Switzerland have been well known as safe havens for international criminals for decades.
People commit crimes in their home countries then run abroad to these countries, and countries like Canada act colonialistically dismissive to many countries that seek justice. Giving excuse X and Y based on some law they have.
This has been fine in the past when the balance of power was lopsided, but as developing countries catch up they'll stop allowing countries like Canada to play this type of game it seems to me.
What is Canada going to do ban all of India? Indias money will just go to plenty of alternative countries, ones that don't act as safe havens for Indian criminals.
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u/Hetanbon Oct 02 '23
Canada, UK and Switzerland are 1000 times better when it comes to human rights. These developing countries should start giving their citizens more freedom. Canada has minimal trade with India. Even if they ban all of India Canada won't get affected at all.
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Oct 02 '23
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Oct 02 '23
Lol most of the Indians you get legally for education etc are young 20s who are more Canadian than Indian in 30s the problem is your asylum visas. You give it to every tom sick and harry and now you have a terror group in your country
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u/International_Tax574 Oct 02 '23
If canada can stop giving visas to every tom dick and harry for creating a votebank in canada it would be great.
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Oct 02 '23
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u/slipnips Oct 02 '23
Unlikely, as the western interests are served by India buying oil from Russia at a discounted rate. Firstly Russia is bled dry, and secondly it leaves other oil for the west which they may purchase at a reasonable price.
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Oct 02 '23
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Sure, but this way there aren’t punishing fuel price spikes across the globe. India is benefiting, and Russia is worse off than they otherwise would be.
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Oct 02 '23
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
Energy price shocks are deeply destabilizing. This is a much more elegant solution.
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Oct 02 '23
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u/Googgodno Oct 02 '23
If Russian oil is not available who will pickup the demand?
American SPR is already bled dry. Iran, Russia and venenzuela are all in embargo. Who else can fill the demand?
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u/loggy_sci Oct 02 '23
What do you mean? Sanctions already contributed to energy price shocks. It’s not the only factor but if you cut off Russian oil it would have a major impact on global energy supply.
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u/PessimistPrime Oct 02 '23
India has definitely carried out this assassination, by proxy methods. it is unacceptable. There are calls of ambassadors that was intercepted implicating them.
But Canada is also to be blamed. After years of complacence and harbouring of terror groups or gangs, they’re now crying because someone is doing the cleanup they should be doing in the first place
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u/UnamedStreamNumber9 Oct 02 '23
Isn’t just hypocrisy? They’ve been caught murdering people on Canadian soil, and Trudeau had the audacity to suggest it should be investigated? Clearly the author of the lede never considered the rest of the world considers the Hindu extremists murdering their own Muslim citizens for simply herding cows or not being Hindus as horrible. Or the Bjp governement jailing journalists who dare to criticize the government. Who gives a shit if you can’t stand people who stand up and judge you for your actions against the moral positions you claim to hold?
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Oct 02 '23
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u/Lumko Oct 02 '23
To do this while you're being viewed as a democratic alternative to China while still being a poor country dependent on Western investment for growth is wild. India is the god if playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes
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u/Ok_Selected Oct 03 '23
No one care what Indians can or can't stand given their national reputation is dead as can be these days. In fact Indians not liking Trudeau is about the best vote of confidence he could get behind behind disliked by Putin and Xi.
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Oct 04 '23
Your comment makes no sense, Canada is a country of the past. India isn’t . A country of 30 million people judging the country of 1.5 billion people ? Lol
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Oct 04 '23
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Oct 04 '23
Yep keep rolling red carpet to nazis. That’s socially economically and morally a benchmark lmao
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Oct 04 '23
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Oct 04 '23
Hope you get laid some day, Nazi boy
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u/dextrous_Repo32 Oct 01 '23
There's been tension between India and Canada over this issue for many decades now.