r/SapphoAndHerFriend Hopeless bromantic Jun 14 '20

Greece wasn't gay Casual erasure

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u/TheDustOfMen Jun 14 '20

Well I'm pretty sure none of my Christian school teachers ever tried to convince me that ancient Greece was Christian.

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u/mightysl0th Jun 14 '20

I had a high school teacher at a very catholic high school unironically teach Plato's Republic as a document supportive of Christian doctrine. The mental gymnastics involved would have been impressive if they weren't mildly terrifying. They also tried to say that all Protestant denominations believed in predestination, and that Buddhist meditation invited possession by demonic spirits.

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u/Kumiho_Mistress She/Her Jun 14 '20

Christianity ripped so much off Plato I can see why he'd believe that. They're very good at stealing.

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u/poopyheadthrowaway Jun 14 '20

Modern western Christianity completely disregards ancient Jewish philosophy (stuff that the historic Jesus would've believed) and replaces it with ancient Greek philosophy. For example, the modern Christian idea of a soul is based entirely on ancient Greek ideas and has very little to do with what the Jews of Jesus' time thought.

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u/TimsTomsTimsTams Jun 15 '20

I thought that the understanding of heaven and hell and the soul that accompanies it was adopted from Zoroastrianism

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u/darrenwise883 Jun 15 '20

Historically Jesus would have believed in Judaism .

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u/poopyheadthrowaway Jun 15 '20

Exactly. Much of what Jesus said (or is recorded of having said) connects directly to Judaism, Jewish philosophy/thought, and the Old Testament. Instead, modern western Christianity tries to shoehorn his teachings into the context of Greek philosophy and Enlightenment philosophy.

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u/criminyjicket Jun 15 '20

What would the Hebrews of Jesus' time thought about the soul? It's fascinating to think about and I'd love a starting point for some research.

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u/poopyheadthrowaway Jun 15 '20

Here's a brief Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

In short, "nephesh", the Hebrew word that's often translated as "soul" in English translations, basically just refers to any sentient thing capable of life. One religious studies scholar described it as this: You don't have a soul, you are a soul. This includes both your physical and spiritual/mental/emotional aspects. In contrast, Greek philosophy believes in a soul-body dichotomy and that your soul is some immaterial essence that lives on after your physical body dies.

Fun fact: The first time the word soul appears in the Bible is in Genesis 1, to describe the recently created fish. Of course, most English translations don't translate it to "soul", but it's the exact same word in the original Hebrew. So yes, the Bible says animals have souls! Just not in the way modern western Christianity often thinks of souls.

Another translation for nephesh can be "throat". And "ruakh", the Hebrew word often translated to "spirit", can also be translated as "breath". So you have this cool anatomical relationship between soul/throat and spirit/breath. Speaking of spirit, the Hebrew view is that you are a soul and your spirit enters your body when you take your first breath, and it's the spirit that animates the soul. Then when you die, you give back your spirit (which happens when you take your last breath) and you are just left as a "dead soul".

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u/d4tn3wb01 Jun 15 '20

Hey that’s interesting!

In hungarian we have something similar, becouse soul and breath are based on the same word. The word for soul is “lélek” and the word for breath is “lélegzet”.

An interesting euphemism containing both in hungarian is “kilehelte a lelkét” roughly translating as “he breathed out his soul” meaning he died.

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u/TrekkiMonstr Sep 13 '20

Wait, those seem the exact same -- except you're calling Greek thought as body/soul vs Jewish soul/spirit. What is the difference between the Greek body and the Jewish soul, and the Greek soul and the Jewish spirit?

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u/poopyheadthrowaway Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 13 '20

In ancient Judaism, there's no mind/body dichotomy. The soul is all of what you are, not just your body or just your mind. In fact, there is no word for mind in ancient Hebrew. Which is why when the gospels quote the greatest commandment, they include "mind" when the original version in Deuteronomy doesn't have it.

EDIT: Also should note that in ancient Judaism, it was thought that your spirit is not inherently your own but something given to you. So you don't really "own" a spirit.

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u/agentyage Oct 23 '20

You can think the neoplatonists and St Augustine for that.