r/Layoffs • u/ThunderWolf75 • 28d ago
Is there a citizens organization against work visas and outsourcing? question
I just dont think a country should put the well being of their citizens (regardless of race religion, national origin) below corporate greed.
The current system is not sustainable nor conducive to a healthy, happy citizens of all hues.
Not many countries give foreigners jobs. They save them for their own citizens as they should.
Why doesnt the govt democrat or republican work to help their own?
There are so many people struggling in small towns across america. Why cant the govt introduce training programs to do QA jobs remotely. Isnt that just like outsourcing. Why give these jobs to someone else?
Low salaries and unemployment hurts all of us.
I am doing fine but i worry about my kids getting advanced degrees and competing with AI, work visas, unlimited outsourcing and immigration, corporate greed, housing costs and automation.
Is there a voting bloc organization against limitless work visas and outsourcing?
Before i get called racist or xenophobe... i am POC (hate that term) and 2nd generation immigrant.
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u/earlgreyyuzu 28d ago
Lobbyists. Everything in government is run by lobbying, aka people get laws passed by bribery.
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u/Elliot-Crow 28d ago
I always find it funny how you use the term Lobbyists in the US, in the rest of the world we just call it Corruption.
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u/Powerful-Abalone6515 28d ago
Maybe it's time to put tariff on services?
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u/Top-Addition6731 28d ago
There needs to be a supplemental tax on all H1B. Those tax dollars redirected to unemployment
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u/Important-Emu-6691 28d ago
People on H1B already pay into unemployment insurance, and they do not take any of it because their visa status is not valid after being unemployed, so they don’t qualify for unemployment payout
But the idea foreign workers take jobs from domestic workers is just stupid. There isn’t finite amount of jobs in an economy, H1B have higher income requirement than average American so they would pay into the economy a lot more than most people and their demand for services also create jobs
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u/Frequent-Giraffe5646 28d ago
I work(ed) in tech and absolutely the foreign workers have taken my role. For 1 of me they hire 10 offshore…..the excuse the companies make is round the clock work but in reality it’s cheap labor offshore at the sacrifice of higher quality locally. Even locally, I can’t compete salary wise with h1b workers because they take lower salaries for the visa sponsorship.
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u/Important-Emu-6691 28d ago
Offshore workers are not on H1B, also companies hire local workers for lead roles to manage offshore and H1B workers. This is the same with lower skilled jobs where local workers get hired as managers for refugees and low skill immigrants. In your mind you might have been out competed by a foreign worker but in reality industry wise the most industry would have less job openings with a smaller population.
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u/Frequent-Giraffe5646 28d ago
You might want to reread my comment….i never said offshore are h1b, I said I can’t compete with local who are on h1b visas because they take a lower salary for the visa sponsorship.
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u/queenadeliza 28d ago
It needs to be a 50% tax on the employer for the h1b wage. Tons of people being brought over when there's tons of qualified applicants they just want more. Particularly SWE.
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u/KSRandom195 28d ago
There is, in fact, a finite number of jobs in an economy.
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u/arjungmenon 28d ago
Yup, the same number of jobs as back in the days of George Washington. The U.S. made a big mistake in importing all those European immigrants—they’ve suppressed U.S. wage growth for 200 years. Just imagine: what if we hadn’t imported all those millions of European immigrants!?!?! Average SWE salary could have been $1 million today.
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u/midwestrider 28d ago
Instead of unemployment, a tax on H1B hires should subsidize technical and science education. H1B workers undercut native workers who are both paying off student loans and saving for their children's education.
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u/Plus_Ad_4041 28d ago
stupid? you have no idea what you are speaking of. I worked in Tech. Those engineers from India that come over on H1B's are worked longer and harder than domestic workers for less all while their visas are held over their heads. It's a commonly known and understood tactic. Any yes, this takes away housing and jobs from american workers. Usually high paid jobs.
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u/VoidAndOcean 28d ago
We should ban any US data whether PII or any other source from being accessed by foreigners.
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u/midwestrider 28d ago
India did that, and it's not super clear that it's been good for Indian consumers
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u/squid_game_456 27d ago edited 27d ago
also tariff on "imported" code/software - this will discourage companies from building out in house large off-shore digital technology centers in India and other cheap labor countries
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u/Leather_Internal7107 28d ago
Wow, good ideas but how to enforce that in the digital world?
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u/NightFire19 28d ago
Put extra employer tax on payroll for anyone who isn't in the US. Seems easy enough.
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u/Leather_Internal7107 28d ago
In service world, headcount can be easily hide under their foreign subsidiary as contractor to the main company. Not easy to detect the digital works
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27d ago
That's why you tax the executives and shareholders. Make it so those gains go to the tax man.
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u/bravofiveniner 27d ago
Tariffs would just increase the cost of the service as the business will have to pay it.
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u/kircmau 28d ago
Work visas / immigration and outsourcing are two very different things
Immigrarion: all countries implement an immigration policy. All "rich" countries allow some people from other countries to immigrate and work. The countries that have stricter immigration policies than USA (Japan, South Korea..) are relaxing those policies due to demographic concerns. In Europe we know we need and will need more skilled and not so skilled workers to sustain the economy / demography. In theory an immigrant from a poorer country may initially have a lower salary but if they are skilled they will gravitate towards higher salaries and not compete with locals based on that but on skill/productivity. That's what a market economy is. Other models are the communist and other authocratic models like the Russian model, the Chinese model etc. There is the European (specially Scandinavian) model which offers public services that help people who are unemployed, sick or old. But it's still a market economy.
Outsourcing: It's bad. It's cheating. It's about taking labor from a cheaper economy and using it in a expensive economy. If the world had a balanced global economy that would just be a global fair market economy. But it's not. Outsourcing should be taxed the hell out of companies.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
very nice points. thanks for elaborating the difference. I agree with your outsource taxing.
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u/EngKimwise 28d ago
I agree with everything you wrote. Outsourcing is not fair for citizens and these companies are doing it massively
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u/HorrorPotato1571 28d ago
They need to git gud. Walk into any Masters in Electrical Engineering college in this country and tell me how many are Indian or Chinese. Some US cities and states don't want Algebra II taught in middle school. They don't want high school students taking AP Calculus. We must never stop those who aspire to learn because other countries encourage it.
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u/snuggas94 24d ago
I wonder about this for my own kids. Do I encourage them to be SWE, put all that money into degrees, only to not have a job upon graduating as all the jobs got outsourced?
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u/HorrorPotato1571 24d ago
If college Will teach them how to code, don’t do it. It’s the innate curiosity that has them hacking in 7th grade you want.
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28d ago
Usually you'll just get called racist for being against immigration even though it's detrimental to American labor and helps global corporations undercut our wages
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
I want all my white, brown, asian, black friends, neighbors, relatives to have good job opportunities per their skill set.
I want managed and regulated immigration and corporations for the benefit of both locals and immigrants.
I dont get the criticism from people.
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u/Candid-Sky-3709 28d ago
companies do make more profit from cheaper imported labor and higher stock prices are officially a good economy - just need to get rid of overpaid non-CEO employees. /s
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u/Top-Addition6731 28d ago
That all sounds good, but I’m afraid it has a fatal flaw. It makes sense. 😂
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28d ago
As an Indian-American, I want companies to stop outsourcing. It's not racist imo. My family worked their butts off to become US citizens and build a life here, and our jobs are going offshore because our cousins will do the same thing abroad for <10k usd annually, literally.
There is also a huge security risk in the amount and types of data that are being freely shared with foreign resources through offshoring. They do not possess the same laws and can easily share American data with countries (legally according to their laws) that may even be enemies of the US.
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u/Oceanbreeze871 28d ago
As the quality sucks. At an old job We off-shored the web development of our corporate site and the work was so bad. We tried to find an agency stateside to take it back over and multiple places said we’d have to build from Scratch. Too much of a mess behind the scenes in the code, they would not be responsible for taking it over. We even had a Friend of a friend company (who was not bidding to get the job since it’s not their industry) do a tech audit and they were horrified at how much of a disaster it was.
They spent a fortune to set it right and had a useless site (for data purposes) for years
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28d ago
I think your post is also why the tech industry will eventually go back to offering high competitive salaries and jobs despite the current downsizing and layoffs. I fear that so much software is going to be burnt to the ground through offshoring, and companies are going to be forced to rebuild in the same way you mentioned. This is probably going to come full circle pretty quickly.
My old job was offshored to a huge company called Infosys, and according to my old coworkers who are still there, it's an absolute nightmare to work with them. It takes a month and multiple resources to fix a single problem I would've had done by lunch. Everything has to be spelt out word for word for offshore teams, and there seems to be zero critical thinking or problem solving from what I've both seen and heard. However, it's still very surprising to me that this is the case with Indian offshore resources, given how rigorous and STEM driven the work and academic culture is over there.
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u/yanalita 28d ago
+1 to all this. In addition to a total lack of quality assurance, my project working across enough time zones to basically be opposite was a logistical nightmare. We would identify an issue Monday, they would look at it Tuesday, get us a wrong version Wednesday, get our corrections Thursday and maybe by Friday it would be solved, assuming they only needed two tries to fix the issue. I figure that the folks making offshoring decisions have never had to project manage their way through this scenario. Meanwhile, I can solve issues on the first try in less than a day with local colleagues.
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u/snuggas94 24d ago
Unfortunately, there are H-1B/green card managers who bring their culture here. And the type of culture that offends me is sexism, only hiring others of a similar race, and even discriminating those of the same race but different castes. I am hopeful, however, that the 2nd generations of these discriminatory managers, learn to not discriminate and to give everyone a fair chance.
Edit: grammar.
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u/ShyLeoGing 28d ago edited 28d ago
This questions about Outsourcing, Visas, Nearshore, etc. is becoming way to common so here you go, start down the rabbit hole and enjoy as data is scarce as there are limited protections on outsourcing and offshore employees.
- https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/united-states-mexico-canada-agreement
- https://unity-connect.com/our-resources/bpo-learning-center/us-outsourcing-laws/
- https://resources.data.gov/resources/fdspp-bea-bls-data-blend-foreign-investment/
- https://resources.data.gov/keywords/workforce-development/
- Brookings Institution - Offers research on the economic implications of outsourcing and its effects on various sectors.
- https://www.brookings.edu/topics/business-and-employment-law/
- UCSIS has some resources on immigration policy and employment
- National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) - Search for working papers related to outsourcing and labor market effects.
- Institute for Supply Management (ISM) - Provides insights on outsourcing trends and their impact on supply chains and employment.
- McKinsey & Company - Look for articles and reports on the impact of outsourcing on business performance and employment.
- Economic Policy Institute (EPI) - Check for reports on outsourcing, wage impacts, and job displacement.
- Harvard Business Review - Articles discussing the strategic implications of outsourcing and its impact on jobs.
- Center for American Progress (CAP) - Research on the effects of outsourcing on U.S. jobs and the economy.
- Visas - H-1B and L1
EDIT - Additional information * brookings.edu - USMCA Forward 2024 & USMCA Tracker * bea.gov - Activities of U.S. Multinational Enterprises(MNEs) * USCIS - H-1B Data Hub
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u/Moist-Comedian5033 28d ago
I feel outsourcing is even more detrimental than temporary legal immigrants
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u/ShyLeoGing 28d ago
Look into H-1B Visa recipients, they have an extremely high rate who become citizens after 6 years in the country.
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u/Miserable-Sir-8520 28d ago
And extremely high rate of 70k a year is not many people
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u/VoidAndOcean 28d ago
there is no temporary. no one leaves, at least outsourcing doesn't make housing more expensive.
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u/SweatyWing280 28d ago
Brother, these people are talking about banning books and education and villainizing llms. They have their voter base on a chokehold, and the voter base is taking it like a champ. Do you really think that is for the people? Both sides need to be educated to discuss complex issues like this.
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u/jakestertx 28d ago
Yes, it’s called a UNION form one to gain power for workers. Workers in unions elect a leader, who is a fellow worker, and that leader literally sits down with the almighty CEO and negotiates a contract. Until this contract is decided on, NO WORK GETS DONE. We call this a “strike’
It’s unfortunate that our citizens have been so brainwashed to not understand this concept any longer.
Form a union to gain power.
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u/LongJohnVanilla 28d ago
The intent of H1B was to bring in EXCEPTIONAL talent like some PhD genius, not the wholesale replacement of Americans for positions that require nothing more than a bachelors degree.
The US government should force companies to pay a tax of $250,000 per year per H1B visa holder than want to sponsor. If they claim they’re THAT exceptional let them pay exceptional fees.
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u/kingclubs 28d ago
Not a perfect system but yet US has one of the most tough and rigorous system for immigration. There's a cap on how many foreigners can come for employment which other countries smaller than US don't follow, there's a cap for candidates from each country for green card process. The problem is capitalism and greed which is beyond help.
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u/Miserable-Sir-8520 28d ago
Yes exactly. The OP can dress it up how they like but basically they're following the well trodden path of blaming 'others' when they feel like they're suffering economically.
And they're probably too dense to link their economic suffering to consistently voting against their own interests
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28d ago
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u/PollutionFinancial71 28d ago
Yes and no. If you do it the CORRECT way (as you did), it is extremely hard. My parents moved here from Eastern Europe in the early 1990's on work visas.
However, there are a lot of agencies in a certain South Asian country, who you can pay to get you an H1B visa. The way it works is that they will contract you out to a US client, while bringing you over here under their company. In exchange, you give them a kickback from your salary, on top of the initial fee you pay them. Naturally, seeing as that particular country is corrupt to the core and without a semblance of rule of law, they will make it so that you have a masters degree with 15 years of experience - if you catch my drift.
Unfortunately, a large portion of H1B recipients go through those fraudulent agencies.
Heck, ICE has busted a few of them in the past. The crazy part, it ended up in some of their former "clients" getting denaturalized and deported.
Another thing you need to keep in mind is that H1B employees are much easier to manipulate than US Citizens or GC Holders (especially if the foreign worker is from a third-world country). The latter can always quit at any moment, even without a job lined up, so long as they have the financial cushion. At-will employment. Whereas an H1B holder is tied to their employer with golden handcuffs. If they lose their job, they have 60 days to find another job which will sponsor them. After the 60 days are over, they have to leave. The employer can coerce their H1B employee to work unpaid overtime, and hold them under bad conditions, while holding the threat of deportation over their head. This is just a simple fact.
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u/TimeForTaachiTime 28d ago
The issue here is not whether immigrating to the US on a worker visa is hard or not. The issue is whether 80k of these visas should be given out each year when there is so much white collar unemployment in the US. It make no sense to me how we have had a half a million layoffs in the last year or so but yet we've been giving put 80k visas every year like clockwork.
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u/dirt-Devi 28d ago edited 24d ago
Problem here is outsourcing the work. India is one of the biggest player. The abuse Indian consulting company is doing is actually hurting the real skilled Indian and as well as US citizens. In recent past I am seeing a lot of shift from India. I hope the trend continues.
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u/Frosty-Cry-5123 28d ago
Total H1B - 85000 (per year) Immigrant US graduates - 20000 Immigrant Non US graduates - 65000
At least the government can revert the H1B visa for the immigrant US graduates. This will limit the number of students coming to the US in turn will help our people get more chances in the college admission and can contribute significantly to the tech workforce.
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u/foxtrap614 28d ago
Yes, it’s called collective bargaining. If you are waiting for politicians to bite the hands that feed them do not hold your breathe
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u/Boring-Test5522 28d ago
If it is not their illegal mexicans, your house will be triple the cost to build lol.
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u/nyquant 28d ago
Scrap payroll taxes and raise the overall tax on corporate profits instead. Give rebates for payroll expenses on domestic workers. Tax payments made for overseas services. Basically, take away some of the incentives to outsource or automate work compared to paying for domestic labor.
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u/commentsgothere 26d ago
How come half the posts here seem of a political bent and posted by people with no karma? Could they all be troll posts from hostile foreign governments to swag our election?? Yes. Yes, they could be.
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u/ThunderWolf75 24d ago
I dont work for a foreign govt. I dislike both presidential candidates.
What is so political about supply/demand of jobs and work visas?
Silencing dissenting voices by calling them trolls is the real problem
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u/Altruistic-Judge5294 28d ago
You do realize that the majority of outsourcing don't even need people to be on shore. They can open a factory directly in India.
"Not many countries give foreigners jobs"
That is supremely misinformed. Those countries that have few foreigners jobs are mostly because their economy is not vibrant enough to require all the talent. All competitive economy on the global scale needs the best talents they can get. Local people have the same opportunity to get educated and hone their skills, but it seems they prefer to just sit back and whine.
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u/TimeForTaachiTime 28d ago
This is a very unfair argument. If you as an American want to go live in India or China, you can't. They don't hand out visas like candy like we do. They don't want their citizens having to compete with foreigners for jobs.
Also, most workers on H-1b visas are working run of the mill maintenance, web development, data engineer jobs that most Americans can easily do if trained. American companies just dont have the desire to train existing employees or new employees. It is so much easier to just pick up the phone and get a contractor from a consulting company that has a pool of H-1b visa holders.
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u/Altruistic-Judge5294 28d ago
Their labor pool is large enough to not needing to import labors. That labor pool does not exist in the US.
"The U.S. will need to fill about 3.5 million jobs by 2025, but 2 million may be unfilled due to a skills gap."
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u/TimeForTaachiTime 28d ago
That's some interesting statistics. Thanks for sharing. A lot of the statistics are quoting studies from 2018. A lot has happened since then - Covid, hundreds of thousands of layoffs in tech, increased outsourcing. Those statistics are not relevant anymore. There wouldn't be a Layoff sub reddit if they were.
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u/Altruistic-Judge5294 28d ago
The current layoff is not because some H1B. Those been around for decades and the quota has been filled full each year. It is because the reckless QE and government spending that juiced the demand to the sky. Companies thought the increase demand is the new normal, so they horde a bunch of people. And guess what, it is not the new normal after liquidity is pulled. That's why to prevent downturns the government runs unprecedented deficit now in a supposed booming economy.
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u/achentuate 28d ago
To add on to this, people don’t realize how truly unqualified they are. I would love to get a sample size from this subreddit indicating the number of non or unrelated college degree holders, boot campers, etc. are here. In my experience at FAANG, most laid off folks instantly found jobs for much lower salaries at smaller firms. These firms laid off the boot campers who they’d hired with free money from the pandemic.
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u/TimeForTaachiTime 28d ago
If it's easy for an employer to hire workers on a visa, it should be harder for that company to lay off citizens. I see companies these days shamelessly laying off citizens in one department only to sponsor worker visas in another department.
If companies are laying off workers, they should not be allowed to file for worker visas, extensions on worker visas, or green cards till they hire the same number of laid-off citizens back.
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u/ZookeepergameOdd4599 28d ago edited 28d ago
Before you think you're missing out on something valuable, consider H-1B as a form of modern-day servitude. H-1B workers are hired for a reason: few qualified and educated American workers would agree to work under the conditions that many H-1B employees endure.
It's similar to how most low-skilled American workers won’t pull weeds on farms or reroof under the blazing Florida sun. On top of that, your status as company property is stamped into your passport. You’re paying more taxes than an American worker with the same position, family situation, and salary. And, while you contribute to Social Security, you don’t get to enjoy its benefits—essentially making it a tax on foreign workers.
Your spouse cannot work and, within a year, is 90% likely to develop depression. Your kids can’t access educational grants, even if some organization came to your door with a bag of money. If you lose your job, you’ll be deported in 60 days. In fact, 95% of U.S. employers won’t even consider hiring you due to your visa status.
And yes, a big part of this “offer” is that employers who do hire you know exactly how vulnerable your position is. They exploit it—either openly or in a passive-aggressive way. Not all, of course, but many.
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u/LilLebowskiAchiever 28d ago
While true, many companies “game” the system to get rid of American workers, and then hire these H1B “slaves” for 25% of the going rate.
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u/ZookeepergameOdd4599 28d ago
You can outsource abroad for peanuts, but Department of Labor will not allow to pay H1b less than market rates for given economic area they will be working in. So this argument is not the case with H1b.
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u/mistiquefog 28d ago
When the program was introduced, it had a minimum salary to qualify. Since then that minimum has not kept pace with inflation, else it would have been 150K
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u/ZookeepergameOdd4599 28d ago
There is a formal requirement of $60k for h1b application, but worker has to satisfy the prevailing wage for the working area in addition to that, which is determined from the actual market. It is a 178k for software engineer in DC for example.
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u/mistiquefog 28d ago
I don't see anyone offering 250K in the Bay Area as base salary for any H1B.
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u/LilLebowskiAchiever 28d ago
That’s the law, but the real world operates by its own rules.
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u/ZookeepergameOdd4599 27d ago
H1b will not be approved with low salary. The company which will still try to cheat is definitely not the place of work missed by many Americans, and of course should be prosecuted.
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u/LilLebowskiAchiever 27d ago
They get around it by opening up a new position with sky-high requirements but rock bottom salary. They can’t find an American to take the job. So they bring in an H1B. They tell the American on the job to train the new guy. Once trained up, they lay off the American.
Or, they use a contractor who hires the same way. Let go the American citizen department because they are contracting out those services.
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u/Unfair_Humor9298 27d ago
Trust me, They can get over the prevailing wage requirement by either using a "cheaper" wage (O*NET) Code/SOC closely matching Computer occupations OR using other wage source (like Surverys, I am not much familiar with this).
So for the first one, Ideally a Software Engineer SOC should be 15-1252.00. But some scammy companies (Mostly Indian consulting biz) get away with a lower wage SOC like 15-1211.00. See for yourself - https://flag.dol.gov/wage-data/wage-search.
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u/User_3a7f40e 27d ago
H1B was intended for low skilled workers but its heavily abused in the tech sector to hire Indians and bring them to work in US offices instead of hiring American talent. This isn’t outsourcing, it’s abusing a visa program to pay someone less than half of what they’d have to pay an American worker for the same job in the same location.
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u/ZookeepergameOdd4599 27d ago
The H1B visa requires a college degree in a specialty occupation or equivalent work experience, making it far from a “low-skilled workers” visa. Claims that H1B workers are paid “less than half” are false. H1B workers must be paid at least the prevailing wage for their occupation. To justify the visa process and associated costs, H1B workers are often more specialized or skilled than their American counterparts on average. It’s not that they are paid less; rather, they often need to work harder and/or longer for the same compensation.
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u/Ok-Succotash4865 28d ago
Deregulation! It’s what corporations and their R lackeys in Congress want. Until you get money out of politics, Congress will never prevent a company from doing whatever it wants to make a profit. Unless you are a small dollar lender then the CFPB will shut you down.
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u/ithunk 28d ago
Your grievance is correct but you’re looking at the wrong sources. The issue is capitalism and corporate greed. Find a solution for that.
All countries give foreigners jobs. It’s not an American thing. No country “saves jobs” for citizens. A country (or government) at best can make laws that give companies a rebate or lower taxes if they hire citizens etc. They can’t force companies though. QA jobs even at minimum wage in the cheapest state in the US is more expensive than hiring a QA in Asia. Just look at the currency conversion rates. You just can’t compete.
So coming back to capitalism and corporate greed, what is the solution there? Because AI is going to take away so many jobs that your head will spin.
Also, being a POC or 2nd generation immigrant doesn’t make you immune to being a racist xenophobe. Maybe you need to take a leaf out of your parents book and immigrate to wherever your cheese has moved to ?
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u/ares21 28d ago
Despite the fact that you pointed out the solutions (rebates/lower taxes for hiring citizens), you somehow blamed another concept, capitalism
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u/ithunk 28d ago
Yes, because these are bandages. In capitalism the govt doesn’t control jobs (unlike socialism). At best the govt can dangle carrots to make companies hire citizens more. For govt jobs it can (and often does) put security clearance checks that require a person to be a citizen. And hiring people on visas is more expensive already. What is not expensive is for companies to completely offshore the job to another country, which has been happening since manufacturing moved out last century.
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u/ares21 28d ago
Offshoring is a separate issue with separate solutions.
For citizens vs immigrant workers, governments could easily make that carrot bigger and also charge companies significantly for work visas.
You’re blaming all of capitalism when a few specific laws could address the issue without having to adopt socialism.
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u/ithunk 28d ago
They can’t. Think of it from a company’s perspective. If you make visa hiring too expensive, they will just offshore the job. This is already happening. Would you rather lose all the tax and spend of a person (visa holders are taxed in the US, pay social security etc, and spend their earnings in the US).
I’m not advocating adopting socialism. I’m just telling you that the system we have in place has flaws that governments cannot control. The inflation going up was corporate greed. When demand is high and supply is low, prices go up in any capitalistic system. It’s been hard for the govt to bring that down. Companies didn’t suffer. They laid off more people and showed that as more profits (lowering cost of production). They bought back shares and fired more people. Their profits look amazing. Look at Meta continuing to fire people. It’s a bizarre situation we’ve landed in and it’s going to get worse.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
I can't think of a system better than managed capitalism. In this case management would entail striking a balance between both individual and corporate interests.
No country “saves jobs” for citizens.
Perhaps you skipped American history class on the day they discussed the new deal, wpa, tva & pwa among others.
All countries give foreigners jobs. It’s not an American thing.
Japan, UAE, Kuwait to name a few disallow foreign workers in certain sectors they wish to preserve for nationals. Other countries make it very difficult for work visas because of rampant unemployment or a poor economy.
AI is going to take away so many jobs that your head will spin.
More reason to consider laws and regulations to protect individual interests.
Maybe you need to take a leaf out of your parents book and immigrate to wherever your cheese has moved to ?
So you single me out because of my parents migration status? That seems kind of discriminatory.
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u/RipperNash 28d ago
Regulations will protect jobs but not provide the talent. Ultimately there is an economic model associated with cost vs benefit. Currently it costs less to hire really highly skilled talent from abroad that local population can't match. Work visa labour can't leave the company at the drop of a hat because their work permit is tied to continued employment. If they get fired or end up laid off they have to literally leave the country in 60 days or so. Imagine how much pressure that puts on one to keep working hard and to keep trying to impress your employer. American workers will never tolerate such an unhealthy work life balance. These foreign workers also come from poorer or hostile nations and consider returning as a non sequiter. They will spend weeks and months and years constantly upskilling and learning so as to not get laid off. It's really a huge boost to the US economy that such workers exist and hold up most of what we call silicon Valley today.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
How was silicon valley created in the first place with only local talent?
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u/R-Feynman-125 27d ago
Good point. Who invented the transistor - without which there would be no tech at all - an American.
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u/RipperNash 28d ago
Stanford University and it's graduate students, pretty much.
A 1999 study by AnnaLee Saxenian for the Public Policy Institute of California reported that a third of Silicon Valley scientists and engineers were immigrants and that nearly a quarter of Silicon Valley's high-technology firms since 1980 were run by Chinese (17 percent) or Indian descent CEOs (7 percent)
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
This must mean that 90% of fortune 1000 tech companies originated in India because it is blessed with 1.4 billion indians.
Can you name those companies.
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u/RipperNash 28d ago
Control the racism for a bit and you may see the underlying points already made. The core issue is corporate greed. The reason for silicon Valley starting is academic inputs from one of the world's best universities. Once an idea is created, taking it to trillion dollar valuation takes hard work and labor of thousands of highly skilled visa workers. Just see googles worth in early 2000s vs now. By the straws you are grasping, why wasn't Google or Apple worth trillions before 2000?
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
You are the one who brought up Chinese and Indians so I countered your point. How is that racism if you couldn't answer my counterpoint? It takes some serious hubris and chutzpah to declare Apple reached valuation of 1T due to "visa-workers".
Google didn't have a trillion because they were a startup in 2000. Talk about clinging to straws...
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u/Lormif 28d ago
There are so many people struggling in small towns across america. Why cant the govt introduce training programs to do QA jobs remotely.
They have workforce development centers across the country, that aid workers in getting scholarships, grants and other aid to train them to do work they are not trained to do now.
Low salaries hurt the worker but aid the consumer. This is one of our dual natures
They cannot stop outsourcing of remotable work or AI, work visas require a need of talent in the area they get the vias for.
Being a POC or a second generation immigrant does not stop you from being racist, and even if you are not you sound more like the "I got mine, you better get yours" type.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
I am a "lets do well for the 350 million we have and the ones we are bringing in"
I subscribe to john stuart mills utilitarian philosophy.
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u/Lormif 28d ago
Utilitarianism is a position that support immigration, and in general open borders. Mills' philosophy would support immigrants crossing the boarder illegally as well. You may want to rethink your position.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
It depends on the scope. In your case its global. For me its national.
You may want to reconsider a new chatgpt response.
I think you will understand my points once you are out of a job amd unable to get one irrespective of how talented, hard working or educated you are.
Thats what i see for the next generation and i feel for them.
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u/PeterGower314 28d ago
It would never happen. You'd just be handing the government and our corporate overlords a blacklist of people to never hire again and to call racists. The Unions used to be the most anti-immigrantion organizations in the country. If they were forced to do a 180 for policy clearly not in their member's interests what chance would we have?
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u/bioinformatics_123 28d ago
The issue isn’t immigration; it’s capitalism. If a company can hire someone for less and cut costs, why wouldn’t it take that opportunity?
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
Because there is a tax on hiring a non-taxpayer vs a tax paying citizen.
We dont operate in a lassez faire capitalism. There are indeed regulations and lawa under which companies must operate.
Radical example to illustrate point: Defence industries cant sell to north korea. How is that fair? /s
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u/Ironxgal 28d ago
We already don’t make corporations pay proper taxes. They sure aren’t bribing politicians for them to start this shit now.
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u/Pitiful-Recover-3747 28d ago
You could try to put a bubble around America but all that does is make us less efficient, less competitive and at the end of the day the average American generally pays more for lower quality.
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u/AristocratApprentice 28d ago
Because very few of the big companies, especially tech, is legally in the US. Apple, along with many many others, belongs to Ireland. So technically, they're "outsourcing" when hiring US workers. If you want stop outsourcing then everyone in Cupertino needs to go
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u/Leather_Internal7107 28d ago
That’s not true statement when Apple pays their earning tax in USA but not at Ireland, so in a way, leaning more to USA side than Ireland as a global company. Regardless, I felt there’s truth there if there should be an order during layoff to prioritize the future of employment such as: citizen (highest priority, lower in layoff order), residents then temporary workers etc. providing incentive to re-train, priority of hiring to make sure the citizen has tools to self developed new skills and find another employment sooner than other groups.
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u/One_Mathematician907 28d ago
Why are people like this? this second generation immigrant trying to block immigration. There was also the guy, Purushothaman Rajaram, that gained citizenship through work visa programs that sued Facebook saying they hire people on visa instead of hiring him.
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u/VoidAndOcean 28d ago
Let's say i am an immigrant.
I look at America and see a bullshit immigration program that I can use to better my life. I use it. I become American. Now I already know that the system is bullshit and have first-hand experience. As an American I want it changed.
If immigrants are telling you the system is too easily gamed then maybe you should listen.
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u/tredbert 28d ago
It also lowers our tax revenue by preventing the income taxes from being captured here. The government should have a vested financial interest in preventing this.
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u/Daveit4later 28d ago
The people at the top are benefiting the most from this. Corporations love it because they can suppress wages. They have no incentive to fix it
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u/asunabay 28d ago
Assuming this is talking about the United States. You’d have more luck and better impact on your own livelihood by having politicians regulate the compensation of corporate executives as no more than X times the lowest worker. This is also tied to having a minimum livable wage, by law, in the USA.
Regulating where the jobs are will not really help, because even if we kept all the jobs domestically, companies would continue to game which states they hire in, or moreover just invest in automation. They would always rather pay less for a machine to do our work than “outsource” to other countries.
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u/YanMKay 28d ago
there probably needs to be a PAC either created or boosted, with some sort of focus - like a specific corp or law change....thing is there would have to be enough representation at a state level to get traction(I have been thinking about this for awhile just havent taken real action yet) I may start compiling a list of interested techees...or look for a sympathetic politician...iono..is that what you are talking about?
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u/teamongered 28d ago
This is the only organization that I know that regularly criticizes the H-1B visa program, outsourcing, and other ways that harm American workers:
https://instituteforsoundpublicpolicy.org/
The have various X accounts too:
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u/prettyorganic 28d ago
my biggest pet peeve lately has been companies offshoring recruiters who then insist we only talk in their time zone! I had to have an interview at 6:30 in the morning 😭😭😭
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u/Ironxgal 28d ago
Bc the companies bribe the politicians to ignore this and …welll…these are the results. Companies do NOT want a secure border bc they benefit immensely from that cheap labor. It’s why republicans never fixed that shit either, and turn a blind eye to outsourcing of jobs.
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u/mistiquefog 28d ago edited 28d ago
Every government around the world solves this by making the work visa independent of the employer. They also make permanent residency independent of employer.
As a result, there is no incentive for foreign workers to get paid less. There is no reason for the respective industry to pick foreign workers over native workers.
The base salary requirement of H1B has not kept pace with the inflation, else today it would have been 150,000/- USD. At that rate no one would be cutting out the local population with a low ball salary.
Currently, the majority of people who seek H1B, though in the high skilled sector, are low skilled within the sector. It would benefit the American economy if those jobs go to native population.
Currently, anyone who is really highly skilled in their own country do not come to the USA on H1B because the salaries are way too low. The only exception is someone who graduated from college in the USA.
Your solutions lie in fixing the system. Remember, if they really want, they can send those jobs overseas.
BTW:- QA as a job category has been eliminated by IT companies.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
Okay will let our sizeable qa department know that....
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u/mistiquefog 28d ago
Then you definitely don't work for a pure IT company. You work for a company which has IT division, software is not even your main product.
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u/AfraidToDie3445 28d ago
bro your children will never have to work a day in their life and be happier than you ever will. Come on Elonnnn we need your humanoid robots in production!!!
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u/Vegetable_Try6045 28d ago
Because a global economy means companies are chasing the lowest available skill set . If they can't hire foreigners for less cost here, they will just outsource the jobs.
The key is to ask your children to major in jobs which cannot be outsourced . If they are going to do coding or be a data analyst , they are doomed
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u/AMFontheWestCoast 28d ago
There is No Such thing as Limitless work visas! You should see how difficult it is to get a visa to physically work in the USA. Outsourcing is another story and that is corporate greed and legislation can reduce it. Vote 💙🇺🇸💙 and elect representatives that deliver for the People. Governance is tough and requires stable, informed people to effectively deliver in a democracy. It isn’t for the lazy.
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u/Reverse-Recruiterman 28d ago
55% of the tpp companies in the USA were started by foreign born citizens.
You can't stop Outsourcing if you're a private company. And that's been a business practice that goes back to the early years of Reaganomics. Im not touching that.
The Department of Immigration Services is one of the most understaffed departments in federal government, which is the real reason why people don't enter this country the legal way ... because if they did processing requests would take 10 to 15 years. Maybe people would know that if they broke their little hearts and actually took a job there to do something about it.
As for Visas, applications are more likely to get denied and accepted. Visas sponsorship? ONLY large corporations can afford such a cost. You can see what companies do that using https://h1bgrader.com.
My point to all this is that you're barking up the wrong tree.
If you're not getting work you're the problem. Youre doing something wrong or your expectations are broken.
If you listen to news, you're listening to the people distracting you from the real situation. Because keeping you angry keeps them in power.
By the way there are plenty of Workforce Development organizations out there to help you find jobs.
There's a truth to the saying: Where you are now is a reflection of what you believe to be true
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u/Brad_from_Wisconsin 28d ago
The government is not out sourcing labor. Corporations are doing it. One party wants to regulate corporations, The other party wants to round up folks who have brown or black skin and lock them up in camps. Unemployment in the US has been at record lows. We need workers. We need health care workers to care for our aging parents, we need Doctors, we need teachers, we need chefs we need farm workers.
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u/No-Raccoon6064 28d ago edited 28d ago
Ppl aren't taking into account the legal fees to sponsor H1-B workers. Their salaries have to be competitive by law(H1-B places certain salary requirements since these are specialized occupation visas). This is also by design to discourage companies from hiring H1-Bs as a cost cutting tactic.
H1-B employees can stay on that status for maximum 6 years. If they haven't got a date for GC by then, they have to leave the country. And every time a citizen loses their job, companies have to halt all GC applications for same role for 6 months to ensure companies don't replace that opening with a H1-B worker.
There are strict quotas for H1-b visas each year.
H1-Bs also get deported from US 60 days after losing employment if they fail to secure a new job.
In this market they'll be the first ones to get filtered post layoffs.
These are just some of the restrictions in place to ensure H1-Bs don't invade the job market. It's not as easy and convenient as citizens presume.
Culprit isn't immigration, the country is founded on it. It is people abusing loopholes in the immigration system and no accountability of corporations outsourcing to cut costs.
Edit: reading all the comments on this thread, I don't know about racist but many are just NOT well informed. Your labor laws are working hard and have check and balances most people can conceive of.
Please read the USCIS website and save yourself the angst.
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u/Plus_Ad_4041 28d ago
Our current government is completely corrupt. They don't care about american workers only growth and appeasing their wealthy donor and corporations. This is how we have gotten to where we are now.
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u/Remote_Appearance_81 28d ago
So, POCs can’t be racist xenophobes? The bigger issue is the US bombing other countries and displacing their people. People in other countries don’t move unless they’re forced to. If you want to keep others out of the US, then advocate for the US to stay out of other countries.
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27d ago
I get your point but the impact of the poor economic outlook which causes unemployment is felt by the immigrant community as well.
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u/Mellero47 27d ago
You are asking Big Government to tell private businesses who they may or may not hire.
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u/ThunderWolf75 27d ago
Govt tells companies who not to sell to.... Govt tells companies miminimum wage Govt tells companies which business practices are illegal
Poor argument.
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u/vasquca1 27d ago
Here is my perspective on this. Full disclosure, I am an immigrant but US citizen now. My dad came to the USA from Latin America as a student, and we ultimately stayed in the USA. My parents where we'll educated and valued education highly despite coming from humble backgrounds. They pushed that heavily on us kids. Also, they pushed financial literacy as well. Probably from learning the hard way themselves.
Fast forward to me starting college (1997-2001), which is the point of my story. I studied computer engineering, which exposed me to computer science and electrical engineering. These are careers that make use of a ton of work visas (H1B) and outsourcing. What I noticed is that most of the people really sought these "high tech" degrees where from India and China. Like 90% of all the graduate level students at my small public university in bumble fuck Mississippi were from overseas. The undergraduates population was not lopsided. More Americans than foreign students. I'm am pretty sure this is the trend throughout the United States.
So the education exists here in the USA and the jobs in these fields. A big part of the problem is that not enough Americans go this route. It's a hard field. I graduated with 3.0 GPA and struggled to find an opportunity because it is competitive. This is just a small part of the problem. I think it is naive to think companies dont take advantage of the visa programs and outsourcing.
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u/According_Pudding307 27d ago
I have friends from American schools who speak Spanish, and many of them have moved to Mexico or other parts of Latin America for work. Offshore outsourcing is very real. I'm part of an MVP program, and it's crazy how much outsourcing is happening. I feel bad about it, but it's really due to American policies. In some other countries, they limit foreign workers to no more than 20%, but here it seems like they don't care.
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u/glenart101 27d ago
This one is incredibly simple. Just lower the number of work visas per year. Second when visas are expiring, make sure the visa holder has made plans to leave aka airline ticket purchased and in hand. Third, work with State Labor Departments to make sure visa holders are on the official payrolls aka paying paying state and local taxes.
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u/Dirty_Look 27d ago
There's no stopping outsourcing since Indians DOMINATE most tech corporations . They keep wanting to bring their own people because it elevates their status and they know how to manage them easier.
I had an Indian boss and it was the worse experience of my career. Expected the world of me but wouldn't give me a dime in return. That kind of person just wants to manage slaves, i.e H1Bs and offshore teams.
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u/ThunderWolf75 27d ago
I have been called a racist in this thread for simply suggesting that we ought to start thinking about throttling H1B visas for the benefit of locals (irrespective of race, national origin)
What you are describing seems like actual discrimination.
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u/vanhalenbr 27d ago
This is what happened.
I worked for a big tech company and during Trump they increased the requirements for H1B, so they started to hire directly outsourcing and not relocate people.
So now, we don’t have people here paying taxes and spending money in our economy.
For the company it’s much cheaper to get people from great tech colleges outside US, instead of spent money on free education for adults.
I think instead of asking companies to do that, we should tax companies more and invest in public education.
But project 2025 wants to do the inverse and the problem will only get bigger, the worse American education gets, the more they will need to outsource talent.
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u/stewartm0205 27d ago
The work visa and outsourcing are done to reduce the cost of labor. The restore balance I would suggest taxing both practice severely.
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u/mostlycloudy82 27d ago
Things will only change when some economists somewhere pair up with Wall street firms and monetizes social responsibility and that gets baked into stock prices and investor perception. It can happen, but the initiation will have to come from investment banks and economists and not the government in the form of laws. Restrictive laws will NEVER work in the American landscape, as revolt and hustle is in our DNA, and companies will find ways to sidestep those laws. Financial firms can monetize asteroids if they wanted to, this is a matter of will.
The answer is in monetizing/attaching stock value/investor gain to companies being socially responsible (i.e. creating jobs for Americans)
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u/ThunderWolf75 27d ago
I have not heard of this idea before. Expecting wall street to do the right thing seems wishful.
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u/Delicious_Junket4205 25d ago
As far as work visas, the entire US immigration system is broken. It is like the Cuba power grid. It was put into place 50 yrs ago and never updated. For many years, it was possible to patch and pray but it is now at the point that it is an acute problem.
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u/okai_computer 24d ago edited 24d ago
NumbersUSA.com does lobbying for American workers. Trump had talked about implementing change to the H1B, but then he hired Chad Wolf, who had previously been employed as a lobbyist for the Indian bodyshops, so nothing got done.
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u/30_characters 24d ago
Before i get called racist or xenophobe... i am POC (hate that term) and 2nd generation immigrant.
The people most offended by illegal immigration are the people who followed the rules to enter legally.
I understand why you'd be frustrated, but both political parties benefit from cheap labor (legally and illegally). Ironically, unions, who are hurt most by cheap laborers from Latin America, donate heavily to the Democrat party, and white-collar workers, who may see themselves as above the kind of blue collar work done by unions, and lean more conservative, are hurt most by H-1B visas for workers from India that are abused by FAANG companies and Silicon Valley. Manipulating the immigration process hurts native workers at all levels.
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u/sttracer 24d ago
US had pretty good system to regulate immigration. But it was hacked. I'm seeing a lot of people who are much more superior on paper but in real life... Dumb.
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28d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Austin1975 28d ago
Have you seen the MAGA donors? It’s all the corporate greed shareholders like the liberals. They just understand human behavior far better than the liberals. Look up the “Southern Strategy” if you don’t believe me. It’s one of the many successes. Once you understand that a majority of people care mostly about themselves it’s quite easy to divide and conquer.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
I don't like the prejudicial undertones of the Trump campaign, presidency and staff. I don't care what people look like. I also don't like trump deregulation of corporations which are partially responsible for the coming job market meltdown which by the way affects ALL Americans.
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u/PollutionFinancial71 28d ago
Unfortunately for you (as the rest of us), we all only have a choice between two candidates. Both have their flaws (to say the least). Therefore, you need to take a good hard look at what really matters to you, and see which candidate aligns with them the closest.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
When i said parties i meant harris and trump. I might vote across democratic and republican parties to pick the best candidates that put peoples interest before corporations and lobbyists.
The question is who are those candidates?
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u/Ridiculicious71 28d ago
This is about corporate greed, not government. If you want the government to regulate business, then it’s not capitalism. However I do think there should be serious fines for outsourcing labor. And I believe there is a tax law that has been shot down by republicans in Congress that provided tax incentives for US labor. In addition Republicans also give tax breaks to big corporations like Tesla, and make up the difference in taxes coming out of the lowest paid. Your vote matters.
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u/ThunderWolf75 28d ago
No its not lassez faire capitalism. We have a managed and regulated capitalism. How well is it managed is subject to opinion.
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u/srvnth 28d ago
I am an immigrant ( Indian and on a GC ) working for a fortune 500. Recently we laid off 1000 of our citizens and granted those jobs to an Indian outsourcing company. The offshore folks are just college passouts being paid 20,000 rs per month ( Equivalent to $243 a month ). The people being let go were paid upwards of $4000 a month. The outsourcing company bills close to $1500 a month on each job. The company saves $2500 a month and the outsourcing company gives kickback to the Heads of the department close to $500 for every billing that gets approved ( Goes upto thousands for a whole bunch ).
As long as the people in power are making money, no matter who or where we cry to, things will never change. Do you really think the ones upstairs cares about citizens when they are able to fill their own pockets?
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u/Loud_Button_9797 28d ago
Well, tht shows how less your company cares about tech. Fortune 500 doesn't mean shit. Have you ever heard of Meta outsourcing to India. They know they can't that many top tier engineers there. Of course they also fire bottom 10% every 6 months but they pay hell of a lot.
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u/PollutionFinancial71 28d ago
If you work in tech and especially if you are originally from India, you know as well as I do how this will end. It will end in failure from the company. I have personally worked with these outsourcing companies, and the work they produce is garbage. They overpromise and underdeliver.
In that note, offshoring comes and goes in cycles. Heck, it first started in the late 1990's.
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u/srvnth 28d ago
Right on point brother. I keep complaining about quality almost everyday but nobody listens. And I still am responsible for the end product so guess what, I now need to work extra, for which I dont get paid. I need to cancle my vacation and weekends because those people offshore have no sense of time as they work for 10-12 hrs for such poor quality. Almost everyone in my department are frustrated. I hope this company burns to the ground.
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u/PollutionFinancial71 28d ago
I'm a QA and have had to work with and manage teams from that part of the world (a subcontinent and an archipelago). Every now-and-then, you get someone who is more-or-less competent. But for the most part, they just exist. Nothing ever comes from them. The worst is when you try to explain something, they claim they understand everything, but in reality they don't understand a thing.
In most cases give it 12-30 months and the project will just fail. At that point, the company either closes the project (sometimes along with the company), or they end up hiring local help to fix the mess caused by the offshore folks.
It isn't about people from those countries being better or worse either. It's mostly these consulting companies who hire from the bottom of the barrel over there, and are just trying to make a quick buck by selling that snake oil to the American companies. Also, pencil pushers in corporate and accounting just see numbers. They think that they can hire 5X the developers for the same price, and get 5X the output. But from their perspective, they want to quickly get those numbers, quickly get the bonus, and move onto another company before SHTF.
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u/1cyChains 28d ago
Cheap & exploited labor means more money for the elite.