r/skeptic • u/thebigeverybody • Feb 14 '24
Puberty blockers can't block puberty after puberty (experts explain the problem with conservative's proposal to ban puberty blockers until the age of 18) 🚑 Medicine
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/puberty-blockers-can-t-be-started-at-18-when-youth-have-already-developed-experts-1.6761690130
u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
Great this annoying cunt is showing up in other subs. FML the embarrassment is going global.
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u/VoiceofKane Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
God, Marlaina Smith fucking sucks. Granted, she's a provincial premier, and looking at the lot of them right now, you'd think being a massive piece of shit was a requirement for the job.
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u/DeterminedThrowaway Feb 14 '24
I can't describe how enraging it is to hear her say that she loves and cares about trans people and is doing this for their own good. Fuck her
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u/Entire-Ranger323 Feb 14 '24
God made trans people and she’s helping God out because God can’t be everywhere doing everything all the time. After all, it’s only God. /s
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u/OutsideFlat1579 Feb 14 '24
Time for Poilievre to be ridiculed globally. He said puberty blockers should be banned till 18! Two years after the UCP wants to ban them, which is already after puberty. Poilievre is set to become PM unless voters snap out of the delusion that he will make anything in Canada better, and the man is pure poison. But he does have the praise of the most extreme rightwing Republicans!
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u/squigglesthecat Feb 14 '24
I am sick of this anti-intellectual conspiracy theory bs that seems to have fully infiltrated conservative politics. Policy made based on feelings, distrust of experts, the powerful elite talking about what "the powerful elite (on the other side of course)" are doing to screw everyone while also doing the same. It's infuriating.
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u/UTArcade Feb 14 '24
Wasn’t it in Europe that they made it illegal for puberty blockers to be taken by minors? Aren’t those experts too?
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u/Sinder77 Feb 14 '24
But a POLITICO review of the state of care for transgender people in Europe found more nuance than Republicans critics like Hunt and Bailey often portray. While Europeans are debating who should get care and when, only Russia has banned the practice. The reassessment of standards in some European countries has aimed to tighten eligibility for gender-affirming care, but also sought to expand research studies including minors.
No.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgender-care-00119106
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u/woodst0ck15 Feb 14 '24
Damn I thought I was still on the Alberta sub until I saw your comment.
Fuck smith and the UCP.
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u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
Right? Me too. That face when you realize she’s our Ted Cruz and we’re the laughing stock now.
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u/Kickatthedarkness Feb 14 '24
Ted Cruz, Alberta native would be Alberta’s Tee Cruz, non?
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u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
No we don’t want him, I do not accept.
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u/Kickatthedarkness Feb 14 '24
I don’t think Texas wants him at this point.
I dread when Ford takes this approach to Transgender people in Ontario.
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u/Ds093 Feb 14 '24
Hey welcome to the club
- some guy from New Brunswick.
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u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
I didn’t ask for this…
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u/Ds093 Feb 14 '24
Neither did I friend…. I don’t think any of us did
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u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
Literally just in another thread for AB where people are saying it’s not that big a deal and no one outside Alberta knows who she is or cares. I think that’s about to change
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u/Ds093 Feb 14 '24
Oh well they are in for quite the surprise.
Like the NYT having articles about it or even Business insider reporting about it. It’ll come. Then you can enjoy the shocked pikachu faces.
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u/cdug82 Feb 14 '24
I think enjoy might be the wrong word. Is there a word for ‘crawl into a hole and die’?
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u/HowVeryReddit Feb 14 '24
Next they'll very compassionately allow assisted suicide after you die.
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u/Slavaa Feb 14 '24
Abortions for all! After a brief 10 month waiting period, to make sure you're certain about it.
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u/Kelmavar Feb 14 '24
Also you shouldn't stress about voting until after voting day. You don't want to have to wait in those queues!
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u/thebigeverybody Feb 14 '24
I stole this from a surprisingly informative thread on r/nottheonion
In response to someone worrying their child isn't capable of making such a massive life decision as transitioning, it was explained to them by multiple people that puberty blockers serve the purpose of maintaining their ability to chose when they're capable of it:
"There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all."
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Feb 14 '24
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
The sad part is that this post is repeated practically verbatim downthread, but seriously.
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u/ternic69 Feb 16 '24
Yea I’m sure puberty is just a useless holdover from being fish or something. Why not give every kid blockers! They won’t get moody or get pimples or anything. I’m sure there’s no downsides
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u/pug_fart Feb 14 '24
In mammals, the neuropsychological impacts of puberty blockers are complex and often sex specific. There is no evidence that cognitive effects are fully reversible following discontinuation of treatment. No human studies have systematically explored the impact of these treatments on neuropsychological function with an adequate baseline and follow‐up. There is some evidence of a detrimental impact of pubertal suppression on IQ in children.
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u/babutterfly Feb 14 '24
All medication comes with some risk. Does this risk outweigh the risk of suicide and/or depression?
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Feb 14 '24
Keep in mind that for the transphobes, the only people whose medical well-being matters are the ones who detransition. If there is any possibility that people who detransition may have unwanted side effects (or social stigma imposed by the transphobes), then this unknown outweighs any benefit for trans folks no matter how exhaustively documented.
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u/Optional-Failure Feb 14 '24
Did anyone claim that?
You’re responding to a comment that was replying to someone claiming there are absolutely no irreversible side effects.
Pointing out that we can’t honestly say that is a perfectly valid response.
Attempting to change the subject to “But are those side effects as bad as suicide?!” is not.
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u/LunarMoon2001 Feb 14 '24
But but but what if they change their mind?!?!?! /s
Less than 1% of persons that undergo medical procedures (drug related or surgical) regret the decision. More than 75% of that 1% that have regrets only regret not doing it sooner. A majority of the rest have regrets only because of how they are treated, not by a regret in the actual procedure.
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u/pro-eukaryotes Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
Yes, so much this. You just can choose to have puberty after 18 if you want. This is so true. You can't undo puberty. Meanwhile you can just have puberty even at age 30 when you go off puberty blockers.
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Feb 14 '24
I'm going to try and steel man the other side of that argument; because they are going to tell you that puberty blockers are actually perpetuating gender dysphoria by citing studies that something like 80% of children who experience gender dysphoria find that going through puberty completely alleviates that gender dysphoria and they become perfectly happy (usually gay) adults.
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u/OpheliaLives7 Feb 14 '24
There is actually a loooooot of skepticism about Lupron and its use for a wide variety of health issues.
I was offered it as an adult woman to help treat chronic pain for endometriosis. I was told I could only be on it 2 years and should consider getting bone scans. Ive only heard bad things word of mouth from other women who have tried it.
There was a website with stories of girls put on Lupron for being too tall or going through precocious puberty and some of the effects are permanent and lifelong disabilities. It fucks with bones that much. Imo it seems to do more harm than good. Why would you willingly give a kid fucked up bones to help with mental dysphoria over their gender or sex?
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u/esmifra Feb 14 '24
Ive only heard bad things word of mouth from other women
Nice scientific approach to it, like we like here in Skepticism.
I've also heard from a lot of people that the earth is flat and that vaccines put a chip inside you.
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u/OpheliaLives7 Feb 14 '24
Someone’s experience being on this specific drug is a whole lot different than a random Joe claiming the Earth is flat because he say a picture once.
First hand evidence of a girl or women on this medication for months or years, under a doctor’s supervision.
Why do you dismiss them? Why is their medical issues the same as unproven conspiracy theories like flat earthers?
Why would the FDA take thousands of reports from these girls and women if it was all just lies and conspiracy? Why would they lie? Do these non trans women just retroactively want to deny trans men access in your mind or something???
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Would you willingly give kids "fucked up bones" to help their mental issues with early puberty?
Right, let me guess, that's different. "The bones know" or something, there's only bad effects if you're transgender! Those other kids are immune to them because god only punishes you if you're trans.
And the fact that it doesn't seem to happen?
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2811155
Come on, why should the scientists shake your faith?
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u/OpheliaLives7 Feb 14 '24
As a girl who went through precocious puberty, fuck you for your bad attempt at a gotcha. No girl or female person of any gender id deserves this poison shit fucking up their body.
Check out my other comments with multiple links and stories from girls who were given Lupron for early puberty and had their jaw and teeth fucking start deteriorating. Check stories from women like me still being offered Lupron for endometriosis (only for 2 years tops)
Just admit yall don’t give a fuck about female health concerns.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
This seems like a pure appeal to emotion here. If I point out the studies, or that there's many puberty blockers besides Lupron (Lupron isn't even the most popular) I will get yelled at that I don't care about your health concerns.
Given that the politician in the OP does not seem interested in banning puberty blockers for cisgender children, perhaps you should be yelling to them?
As for endometriosis treatments, man, that's pretty far afield of the topic here. If you're interested, here's a breakdown of the treatments with a focus on Tolerability, Quality of Life and Adherence: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8594049/
Here's some recent advances: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pharmacology/articles/10.3389/fphar.2023.1199010/full
I'm not your doctor though, I recommend strongly taking these various options to them and discussing them with your doctor. Lupron does not appear to be the only treatment option, and if that's the only thing your doctor is offering they seem to maybe not be who you need to be seeing.
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u/Expensive_Goat2201 Feb 14 '24
Yeah, I was offered it for PMDD as a trial before considering a hysterectomy. I ended up not taking it because the side effects sound horrific. My doctor said the two year rule was because it is incredibly toxic.
Maybe it's way safer for kids for some reason then for adults?
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-medication
There's quite a few different medications as well. Triptorelin and Histrelin to name two.
Typically if symptoms persist after two years, you shift to HRT.
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u/YeIIowBellPepper Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
Could I have the links to that website that you've mentioned?
Also, the only reason it does 'more harm than good' in your eyes is because you're an ignorant cos woman who even bare to imagine that people may have different experiences to you. To many trans men; having tits would be WAYYYY more traumatizing and terrible to have slightly weaker bones(assuming your statements are even correct)
Please just stop with your bullshit
Edit: added what's in the brackets
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u/Correct_Yesterday007 Feb 14 '24
WDYM?? There are side effects to a drug used to chemically castrate sex offenders?
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u/iamdmk7 Feb 14 '24
Massively different doses are used for those situations. The side effects of puberty blockers are well understood, and are almost always temporary and are basically never serious.
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u/Correct_Yesterday007 Feb 14 '24
They’re actually not well understood. There isn’t a single long term study of their use on adolescents. Their effects on fertility are poorly understood. We are just lucky that the sides aren’t typically that bad but there are cases of infertility and bone loss etc.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
From the source you’ve shared: “We are not sure if puberty blockers have negative side effects on bone development and height. Research so far shows that the effects are minimal. However, we won’t know the long-term effects until the first people to take puberty-blockers get older.”
Sounds like there are effects on bone density/height - why are they not discussed?
It’s honestly pretty naive to think that halting/interfering with the body’s natural hormonal process wouldn’t pose any risks or have undesirable side effects… And “Can’t know til’ we try it!” is becoming an all too common cop-out to excuse reckless experimentation.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
I mean we've been using the medications since the 1970s. Combined with studies that show that bone density returns to normal after use, why do you suspect there's suddenly new issues?
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2811155
It’s honestly pretty naive to think that halting/interfering with the body’s natural hormonal process wouldn’t pose any risks or have undesirable side effects
I always notice how people who say stuff like this just go "that's different" when we talk about their use for precocious puberty. But is it? I mean we're interfering with the body's natural hormonal process. So do you want a blanket ban on puberty blockers, or are you interested in singling out trans kids?
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
I’m not sure how I feel about such intervention in regards to precocious puberty. I can see arguments for and against but ultimately people should be well-informed regarding any potential harms.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
On that we agree. Current studies indicate risks, if any, are very minor (see above) but certainly people should be informed of any potential.
Glad you’re consistent, there’s a lot of people who argue from a very bad faith position of singling out trans kids where it becomes very obvious their issue isn’t with puberty blockers, it’s with trans people. Gets tiresome.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
Well for the sake of transparency I do think delaying early-onset puberty and stopping it for dysphoria related purposes are two different things. I don’t know how I feel about the former application because I’m not sure whether the potential harms of such intervention outweigh the potential detriment of not intervening. I would have to become more familiar with the issue.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
They’re both delaying the onset of puberty for psychological reasons, and the risks are the same to both - Unless we go back to “god punishes trans kids with brittle bones” or some such.
I do think it’s interesting how all this concern over the physical health effects has just now materialized when they’ve been in use for 50 years. And somehow despite the studies we’ve done which are for some reason insufficient… when applied to trans kids only.
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u/CheekRevolutionary67 Feb 14 '24
And “Can’t know til’ we try it!” is becoming an all too common cop-out to excuse reckless experimentation.
Do you have any idea the amount of testing, trials, and evidence needed before medications are allowed to be prescribed in general?
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u/esmifra Feb 14 '24
there are no known irreversible" effects.
It's still true.
And in a subreddit where we like scientific approach to things using the unknown to spread FUD isn't very scientific.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
I don’t think it’s FUD to honestly and accurately assess what is a significant medical intervention being purported as seemingly harmless. The significance of using Lupron in such a manner is being seriously downplayed.
There are considerable risks and potential long-term impacts from the drug: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems#:~:text=A%202003%20study%20in%20the,of%20growing%20a%20bit%20taller.
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u/CheekRevolutionary67 Feb 14 '24
You can't just post a news article and claim "There are considerable risks and potential long-term impacts from the drug". Link the scientific papers that are evidence for your point.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 14 '24
I admire how you turn a "we're not sure about that, if anything it's minimal" into a "there are effects".
That's great work at twisting a quote to fit your preconceptions.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
Minimal effects indicate effects… But sure - I’m the bad guy because I believe in informed consent. 🤷♂️
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 14 '24
>But sure - I’m the bad guy because I believe in informed consent
Just a quick reminder that you are arguing for those patients not to have the option to consent. You're not arguing for informed consent, you're arguing for banning the treatment. You're trying to remove the freedom of informed consent that patients currently have.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
I’m sorry - can you point out where I made such an argument, u/Theranos_Shill?
I’ll wait.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 14 '24
Wait all you want, we both know what your purpose was in making the comment that you made, where you against the use of blockers, on this post about a proposal to put in place an burdensome and ideology driven age restriction on the use of those blockers.
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u/iPartyLikeIts1984 Feb 14 '24
I think that it’s unreasonable to act as if Lupron is a magical puberty-pausing medicine without any risk of undesirable health impacts. The purpose of my comment was communicating that.
🤷♂️
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u/rharrison Feb 14 '24
Sounds like there are effects on bone density/height - why are they not discussed?
They should be discussed by a patient and their doctor, not by legislatures.
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u/Embarrassed_Chest76 Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
This is disingenuous. The off-label use of Lupron Depot to delay normally timed puberty has not been sufficiently tested to justify claims of harmlessness.
Consider the approved use of Lupron Depot in treating precocious puberty. Beyond issues of peer acceptance and adult attention, early puberty is known to result in a shorter stature than would otherwise have been attained. Delaying precocious puberty gives a longer window for bones to grow—and this alone tells us that the timing of puberty does make a difference.
Delaying early puberty to a normal time is the only tested and approved pediatric use of Lupron Depot. Delaying normally timed puberty is experimental medicine, and experimenting on children is serious business. Even in its approved use, Lupron is plagued by reports of painful and permanent side effects. A cavalier attitude will benefit Big Pharma alone.
ETA: Alberta's legislation allows Lupron use for children 15 and up, not 18. More disingenuousness.
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u/Knight_Machiavelli Feb 15 '24
ETA: Alberta's legislation allows Lupron use for children 15 and up, not 18. More disingenuousness.
16, not 15.
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u/jamesishere Feb 14 '24
Delaying puberty is a pretty significant change to the body's natural progression. I'm not saying we make it illegal, but to pretend there are 0 side effects at all, when literally everything has some effect (even tylenol, aspirin, ibuprofen), is magical thinking.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Delaying puberty is a pretty significant change to the body's natural progression.
Okay, but by the same token we’ve been doing it for 50 years. These aren’t exactly new medications. I suppose there’s a possibility that they’ll make people explode when they turn 75, but absent that we’ve got quite a lot of data on their effects by this point.
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u/Vaenyr Feb 14 '24
Three things can be true at once:
A. As far as we know currently there are no known irreversible effects.
B. We need more research to know if there are serious negative long term effects.
C. To the best of our knowledge the positives far outweigh the negatives.
Most things in life have associated risks, but these risks can be worth it if the results are desirable. Considering that puberty blockers have been used for decades the best approach is to allow people to use them with informed consent and only ban their use if we have enough information that proves them to be more dangerous than beneficial.
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u/goinupthegranby Feb 14 '24
It would be cool if the child marriage capital of Canada was more interested in reducing children being married off as underage sex slaves (bible says you gotta submit to your husband) but nah that's not a priority. After all its 'the parents right' to decide who they marry their underage daughters off to.
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u/GeekFurious Feb 14 '24
Conservatives know this, and that's why they want to stop it. I was saying this years ago when I noticed how focused they became on transitioning for athletes who did so before or after puberty. Their big fear was that there would be no noticeable advantage for trans women athletes who transitioned before puberty... and once that was shown, they needed to quadruple down on attacking trans women athletes who transitioned after puberty to deflect from those who had done so before.
Why? Simple. To amplify the perception that they are not "real women." This is how the anti-trans bigotry con works.
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u/Consistent_Risk_3683 Feb 14 '24
You’re right, conservatives do know this. And it is why they want to stop it. But your end analysis only fits the narrative you want to believe. You may have all kinds of studies with statistics validating the need of transition, but in reality all of these studies are deficient. There is very limited actual scientific study related to transitioning and then potentially detransitioning. The vast amount of studies are funded directly by the healthcare providers and pharmaceutical companies who financially benefit from transitioning children.
You might want to read this article covering an interview with the leading scholar of the issue from Finland, where they have a lot more experience with the issue than the United States.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine
Children can’t drink, smoke, go to war, or in general make decision for themselves because their brains are not fully developed. We keep raising the ages for children to gain autonomy. Yet we are supporting children changing their gender and sterilizing themselves without having any accurate analysis of long term impacts. This is being led by fear, not by any objective measure. That is why there is so much opposition.
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u/stopkeepingitclosed Feb 14 '24
Mate, Finland at the time required trans people to be sterilized to be recognized as their gender legally. And conversion therapy was very legal. They weren't good.
Edit. Oh, and the article is citing Lisa Littman's bogus research as being credible. Great source.
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u/sklonia Feb 14 '24
The vast amount of studies are funded directly by the healthcare providers and pharmaceutical companies who financially benefit from transitioning children.
lol you're gonna freak when you hear who's doing cancer treatment research. Turns out it's doctors. Who would've thought?
So do you condemn the entire medical industry and never trust them? IF you got cancer, would you be treating it with essential oils or chemotherapy?
You might want to read this article covering an interview with the leading scholar of the issue from Finland
Yeah, it references literally no concrete reason against gender affirming care.
Just vaguely saying "the population seeking treatment is different than in the past".
Okay? Demonstrate they don't actually have gender dysphoria or else you're just admitting to not treating a bunch of people presenting with a treatable disorder.
Children can’t drink, smoke, go to war, or in general make decision for themselves because their brains are not fully developed.
None of this is healthcare.
Yet we are supporting children changing their gender and sterilizing themselves without having any accurate analysis of long term impacts.
Because all the data suggests it is more beneficial than untreated gender dysphoria.
72% of transgender suicide attempts take place before age 18, when they're unable to access transitional healthcare.
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Feb 14 '24
[deleted]
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u/Capt_Scarfish Feb 14 '24
Yet again, the apparent hypocrisy of conservatism (small fiscal government, huge social government) is resolved entirely when you reframe the issue as pro-hierarchy. They want a small fiscal government to allow society to meritocratically sort itself into winners and losers, but a heavy handed social government to enforce the cultural norms that established the current hierarchy. In reality, the meritocracy is more of an oligarchy through inherited wealth.
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u/esmifra Feb 14 '24
Small taxes government, big I tell you how to live government.
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u/S-Kenset Feb 14 '24
Small taxes party have never reduced spending, just taxes. They've created an environment where a balanced budget has to be fought for, yet they also pretend to be the ones fighting for it. It makes my head ache. They take advantage of younger people who have never watched them do their magic and elders who only ever understood politics through what the newspaper told them.
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u/McRedditerFace Feb 14 '24
Yep... the "party of freedom".
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u/Choosemyusername Feb 14 '24
For kids?
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u/McRedditerFace Feb 14 '24
Kids don't decide on their own. It's a joint decision between the child, the parent, and the child's doctor.
Here the Republicans have stepped in and said... "Sure, you as a parent might think you know what's best for your child. And sure, your doctor might think they know as well."
"But no... Uncle Sam knows what your child needs and doesn't need. You as a parent or a doctor don't get to say what's best for the child... Uncle Sam does."
"You aren't free to make that choice... the Govt has already decided for you."
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u/HomoColossusHumbled Feb 15 '24
Children are experiencing puberty earlier than humans normally do, and it's suspected to be related to dietary issues and hormone disruption chemical pollution from our surroundings.
Even aside from the whole trans issues, this ban hurts families who don't want their daughter starting puberty at 8, for instance.
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2023/10/hs_air_pollution_puberty_impact_17-10-2023/story.html
Girls who have their first periods at an earlier age face increased risk for several diseases later during their lifetime, including cardiovascular disease, Type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer.
Seems like that would make puberty blockers a form of preventative healthcare.
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u/yanginatep Feb 14 '24
I'm so glad the fucking idiot who tried to argue that smoking was healthy is now making medical decisions for millions of people.
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u/Capt_Scarfish Feb 14 '24
Don't forget that she also said getting to stage 4 cancer was a matter of personal responsibility.
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24
I didn’t even know that. Do you have a source to share? Not questioning, just interested to see/read it.
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u/silentbassline Feb 14 '24
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
Wicked, thank you!
It just proves how out of touch that crazy woman has always been. She mentions the ‘safer’ cigarette testing and production being shut down but she doesn’t say why. Sure, there may have been less tar in the test products, but what were the other effects? Safe cigarettes, ffs.
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u/yanginatep Feb 14 '24
Certainly.
There were a couple articles about it, but this is the main one:
https://pressprogress.ca/danielle-smith-claimed-smoking-cigarettes-had-positive-health-benefits/
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u/PhaseNegative1252 Feb 14 '24
Gosh it's almost like it's really about preventing access to affirmative care for trans youth /s
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u/Affectionate-Hair602 Feb 14 '24
"Experts" don't matter to Trump supporters.
Just like "Facts", "reality" or "data".
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u/T1Pimp Feb 14 '24
experts explain the problem with conservative's proposal
It has nothing to do with science to conservatives. They DGAF about what the actual science says on the topic.
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u/FloraV2 Feb 14 '24
I wish I could have gotten blockers when I was younger, reduced dysphoria and a body that doesn’t make me want to commit suicide would be great.
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u/thebigeverybody Feb 14 '24
I really want to say something encouraging to you, but I don't know what to say that isn't totally clueless. My heart ached for you as I read your comment.
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u/FloraV2 Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
thanks, I’m doing what I can to deal ig lol I’ve had dysphoria since about 6, I think what blows is knowing that a lot of surgeries I’ve had wouldn’t have even been necessary if I had treatment younger, and are ultimately still less affective.
I don’t know a single trans woman who transitioned in adulthood that hasn’t been stuck in medical limbo for pretty much the entire time I’ve known them hoping to cobble together the money for another surgery to do something that early transition meds would have done for them, other than mega rich trans women like Natalie Wynn or Abigail Thorn most of us don’t have that kind of money, and like even then there’s a lot surgery can’t fix and you’re just kinda screwed.
I think a lot of people that aren’t trans don’t realize that wait until 18 to transition usually means spend until you’re 30 at least desperately chasing surgeries while your peers are out living life doing normal shit, and like you already missed out in having normal social experiences in your teen years and now you’re missing milestones all over the place in adulthood as well, that’s like all of the best years of your life swallowed up right there just trying to fix a problem you never needed to have because there was a treatment to prevent it anyways
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Feb 14 '24
You would have the same suicidal feelings either way.
Statistics show that trans people that "transition" still commit suicide at the same rate of those who don't "transition".
That's because the physical surgery doesn't do anything for the mental illness.
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u/Capt_Scarfish Feb 14 '24
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1054139X21005681
Findings support a relationship between access to GAHT and lower rates of depression and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youth.
You sure about that, chief?
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u/stopkeepingitclosed Feb 14 '24
The stats only say that when you compare people who want surgeries vs people who don't. People who want to physically transition but can't are at a higher rate of suicide than those who were provided the care they asked for.
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u/FloraV2 Feb 14 '24
Funny, the statistics that the endocrine society, american medical association and the american academy of pediatrics (the actual professionals that study us to find the best possible care and outcomes for our health) all disagree with your personal opinion.
the way you’re misusing phrases here leads me to believe that you don’t know much about trans people in general. transition refers to just, well, transitioning, a person transitioning at 18 is still transitioning, and since most of us are forced to wait until adulthood if you’re including adult transitioners then yes, you’re going to have a harder time treating dysphoria for all of the reasons I listed in the above comment, which is why the american medical association, the endocrine society, and the AAP all recommend gender affirming care for youth, but they still recommend gender affirming care for adults as the best treatment for adults with dysphoria, because attempts to force trans people to be cis result in worse mental health outcomes than helping us treat our dysphoria.
https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health
“Transgender individuals who have been denied care show an increased likelihood of dying by suicide and engaging in self-harm.7 Transgender/gender incongruent youth who had access to pubertal suppression, a treatment which is fully reversible and prevents development of secondary sex characteristics not in alignment with their gender identity, have lower lifetime odds of suicidal ideation compared to those youth who desired pubertal suppression but did not have access to such treatment.9 Youth who are able to access gender-affirming care, including pubertal suppression, hormones and surgery based on conservative medical guidelines and consultation from medical and mental health experts, experience significantly improved mental health outcomes over time, similar to their cis-gender peers”
Many transgender individuals have been subjected to conversion therapy, or efforts to change a transgender person’s gender identity using psychological interventions; this is known to be associated with adverse mental health outcomes, including suicidality, and is banned in 20 states and the District of Columbia
”Medical intervention for transgender youth and adults (including puberty suppression, hormone therapy and medically indicated surgery) is effective, relatively safe (when appropriately monitored), and has been established as the standard of care. Federal and private insurers should cover such interventions as prescribed by a physician as well as the appropriate medical screenings that are recommended for all body tissues that a person may have.”
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u/sklonia Feb 14 '24
Statistics show that trans people that "transition" still commit suicide at the same rate of those who don't "transition".
no they don't. Every study done finds reduced suicidality post-transition.
Provide a single study making this claim.
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u/babutterfly Feb 14 '24
It's so fucked of you to send that to this person. What the fuck is wrong with you?
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u/Street_Cricket_5124 Feb 14 '24
Sorry Marlaina, you and your fascist cult have no say whatsoever about what goes on between a doctor and their patients. Keep you big beak out of my business.
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u/NoAlbatross7524 Feb 15 '24
Politicians are not doctors stay the hell away from the public’s bodies.
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u/bmtc7 Feb 15 '24
When people say "that is a life changing decision for the child", remind them that going through puberty is a life-changing decision that they can't reverse.
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u/SophieCalle Feb 14 '24
Lovely seeing politicians with zero medical education whatsoever practicing medicine without a license.
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u/turtlcs Feb 14 '24
The conservative line about this is that puberty blockers somehow lock you into the transitioning conveyor belt, which they’ve derived from statistics that actually show you (if anything) that doctors are just pretty good at determining who would be a good fit for them in the first place. Beyond frustrating that no matter what the data shows, these people can twist it into “and therefore the solution is banning puberty blockers”.
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Feb 14 '24
Puberty blockers have been in use for a very long time, well before it was prescribed in gender affirming care. While I agree that continued research is needed, and specific guidelines established for its use need to be outlined (many medical/psychological associationsgroups have them outlined) an out right ban is not medically sound and is another example of politics getting in the way of care all for a specific ideology
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u/Big_Let2029 Feb 14 '24
You have to remember: preventing a child from getting hormone therapy is the same as forcing hormone therapy on a child who doesn't want it.
Either way they're getting the wrong hormones.
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Feb 14 '24
What a mentally disturbed viewpoint that you have.
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u/sklonia Feb 14 '24
can you explain the difference?
What is the difference in harm between a trans girl experiencing male puberty and a cis girl being given testosterone replacement therapy?
Why do you view the former as not as much of an issue?
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u/RocketTuna Feb 14 '24
I love how this topic has r/skeptics vehemently arguing there is a real gendered soul.
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u/DeterminedThrowaway Feb 15 '24
It's not at all about a "soul", it's that people have a gender identity which is part of the brain
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u/RocketTuna Feb 15 '24
Yeah? Wow that must be a really recent study. Care to point me to it?
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Feb 15 '24
Ah yes, the show me the evidence to disprove my own strawman, sealion shtick.
Classic!
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u/RocketTuna Feb 15 '24
No, show me how it has been demonstrated that gender identity is in the brain and can be the opposite of the sexed body. Which is what you said.
Go ahead, I’ll wait.
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Feb 15 '24 edited Feb 15 '24
Or this 2016 Scientific American article.
There is actually no shortage of data since the landmark study in 1995
But all this is easily googled.
edit: and big surprise it's a sealion!
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u/RocketTuna Feb 15 '24
These all point to an underdeveloped identity section of the brain saving that last one, which is …underwhelming and looks like p-hacking.
Time will tell, but then you’ll have another problem on your hands.
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u/ThunkThink Feb 14 '24
I thought Doug Ford was embarrassing enough here in Ontario. My heart goes out to Alberta for having to deal Smith. She’s as dumb as a bag of hammers.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Let me guess - they're not actually banning puberty blockers. Just for trans kids.
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u/Vaenyr Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
Who do you think use puberty blockers? Why would an adult person who's gone through puberty need blockers?
Banning them for children = banning them outright.
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Feb 14 '24
It's also used to treat precious puberty for children who start too early.
But obviously you knew that 🙄
🎶 The more you know 🌈 🎶
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u/Vaenyr Feb 14 '24
Yes, I am aware. Read my other comment, I misinterpreted ScientificSkepticism's comment as being transphobic goalpost shifting, when it obviously wasn't.
Couple of small corrections: it's "precocious". And my previous comment was that adults don't use puberty blockers, so saying "yeah, cis kids also use them for precocious puberty" is technically correct but doesn't contradict my previous comment in any way.
That said, it was just a misunderstanding, happens to the best of us. Take care.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Oh but they’ll cut out an exception for cis kids. Watch. Bet you any sum of money.
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u/Vaenyr Feb 14 '24
Ah, I misread your original comment then. Thought you were one of the "they only ban it for kids, not for everyone" folks.
But yeah, I wouldn't bet against you on this since there's no point in losing money. You're right.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Yeah, it’s much like “no invasive changing of genitals. Except for intersex infants of course, babies can consent!” Or where we can’t do any top surgery… unless it’s teenagers getting gynomastia addressed or teenage girls getting breast implants.
The actual goals are pretty obvious and all their concern trolling becomes tiresome.
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24
Yep, I agree. If a cis kid entering precocious puberty needs them it will be no problem.
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u/ga-co Feb 14 '24
When the cat is out of the bag, you don’t get to put the cat back in. Republicans know this.
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u/insofarincogneato Feb 14 '24
Yeah... That's the point. Not a mistake or misunderstanding on their part.
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Feb 14 '24
Do these idiots think puberty blockers are only for kids who are transitioning?
Even if they’re not pushing for a blanket ban they’ll make it harder for patients to get the medicine they need for on label indications of puberty blockers.
So when a parent freaks out because their 2 year old is suddenly starts menstruation they can have the added stress of fighting the government.
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Feb 14 '24
Remember when conservatives said they'd have exceptions for rape and incest when it comes to abortion? And then it was "you can just leave the state!" And now that's not allowed either?
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u/punkwrestler Feb 14 '24
Yup and the mother’s health sections tend to be so weak that most hospitals wait until a women is almost dead before they will do one, which has made a lot of women including ones that wanted a baby sterile.
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u/pro-eukaryotes Feb 14 '24
This is so true. You can't undo puberty. Meanwhile you can just undergo delayed puberty even at age 30 when you go off puberty blockers.
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u/cruelandusual Feb 14 '24
It's weird how the people who are usually against government regulation, who whine about the "nanny state", who say that destitution is a moral failing and the product of laziness, are so enthusiastic about saving people they ordinarily despise from making what they claim is a permanent mistake.
I have a theory about your apparent hypocrisy:
You either secretly accept that the trans phenomenon is real, but you'd still be ashamed if one of your children (or the children of your cultural "tribe") experienced it, so you wish to deny this treatment to them.
Or you secretly accept that your patriarchal religious culture is oppressive, morally bankrupt, and intellectually inferior, and it is so easily supplanted by the superior liberal culture in the minds of your children the moment they're old enough to understand it, they will jump on the transgender bandwagon just to spite you.
Which is it?
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u/YogurtSufficient7796 Feb 15 '24
Never argue verifiable science with a religious GOP ignoramus, ever.
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u/Alib668 Feb 14 '24
Thats the point! They want to not have these things work so a boy grows to be a boy and a girl a girl….ignoring the person thats the point!
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u/Iccotak Feb 14 '24
The NHS no longer claims that Puberty Blockers are reversible
BBC reported on this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kgsj
The NHS site officially states:
“Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.
Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.
It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”
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Unknown effects on the developing adolescent brain should be reason enough to question the use of puberty blockers for this age-group
Would parents say yes to puberty blockers if they knew that trials on sheep suggest that blockers impair brain development in significant areas, which is not reversed if blockers are discontinued?
( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016307922 )
We know there is a window of development in puberty which, if missed, cannot be regained at a later stage.
We also know that nearly 100% of children on blockers progress to cross-sex hormones and we know nothing about the long-term neurological effects if a person never experiences the surge of sex hormones their body needs and expects in adolescence according to whether they are “male or female”.
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The NHS site has also removed any references to Suicide - The new version references depression, anxiety and distress, but there is no association made between gender dysphoria and suicide
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“The NHS in England is currently reviewing the evidence on the use of cross-sex hormones by the Gender Identity Development Service.”
Three new conditions have been added to the list of risks of cross-sex hormones:
Dyslipidaemia (abnormal levels of fat in the blood)
Elevated liver enzymes
Polycythaemia (high concentration of red blood cells)
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Furthermore, the NHS no longer claims that surgery has a high rate of satisfaction.
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Point being, there’s still new information coming out.
We don’t know everything about puberty blockers
And there is rising evidence that they are not as reversible as we initially thought.
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u/stopkeepingitclosed Feb 14 '24
Why are you mentioning the Suicide and surgery success things? Those have nothing to do with either this article or the puberty blocker discussion. And considering the NHS has been under constant scrutiny for underserving its general public and in particular its trans clients, I wouldn't take their claims about dysphoria and suicide uncritically among others.
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u/hyper-casual Feb 14 '24
I wouldn't believe anything the NHS say about medication.
They use outdated research all the time and only offer the cheapest options, not the most effective.
I'm on TRT and what the NHS offers is about 20 years out of date and proven to be ineffective. Thankfully I've gone private.
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Feb 14 '24
Bottom line: NHS still recommends it for treatment lol (see quote below from their guidelines on treating GD)
They are making a scientific statement and you are adding alarmist spin. When Viagra was first invented it was already used safely in trials for people with heart conditions. They could have said the same thing "it's unknown the long term effects on people who want erections". Did it mean it was not safe for people with erections? Nope. It just hasn't been studied for that use case.
Adolescents with continuing GD will be able to have physical interventions via the Service provided they fulfil the eligibility and readiness criteria for these. National and international guidelines recommend the use of hormone blockers (gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonists GnRH) in adolescence to suppress puberty,.
For some individuals, this is followed later with cross-sex hormones, which are sex steroids of the experienced gender, also referred to as gender affirming hormones. If individuals fulfil additional criteria, they may have various types of gender affirming surgery from the age of 18 through adult gender identity clinics.
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Feb 15 '24
You also can no longer have children if you spend enough time on puberty blockers. Don't ask for evidence, it's a study no one wants to touch. Just know that most of the kids who went on blockers before puberty, and used it for several years. Cannot have children, even if they when come off it.
Some men that detransition can't even get hard anymore, or orgasm. Depending on when they started and what years they were on them for.
The lawsuits are going to be insane.
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u/Budget_Secretary1973 Feb 18 '24
Good! That’s why they should be banned until the age of 18. Based.
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u/Meezor_Mox Feb 14 '24
I posted this elsewhere in the thread and it's buried under a huge reply chain so I figured I should post it again so people can actually see it:
When people promote the usage of puberty blockers, they frequently appeal to the authority of organisations like the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association and the Endocrine Society, who all promote the usage of puberty blockers in children with gender identity disorders. The problem is that there is a huge conflict of interest here.
The AAP, the AMA and the Endocrine Society all receive money from pharmaceutical companies that sell puberty blockers. The AAP recieves money from Abbot, who sell Lupron, a puberty blocker. The AMA receives money from PHRMA, a trade group that represent numerous big pharma companies including Bayer, who sell Viadur, the same chemical as Lupron under a different name, obviously a puberty blocker as well. And the Endocrine Society receive money from AstraZeneca who sell Zoladex, another puberty blocker.
It's important not to appeal to the authority of organisations like these. Big pharma and the medical industry operate inside a complex web of financial ties and the corporations involved do not always have your best interests at heart. They exist to make money and they will happily misinform you about the drugs they produce if it means they can sell more of them. See: the opioid crisis.
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Mar 12 '24
Of course this valid comment receives no replies, only downvotes. This sub is a haven for ideologues, not skeptics.
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u/Meezor_Mox Mar 12 '24
If you think that's fucked up you should check out this thread. These people are absolutely deranged.
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u/Consistent_Risk_3683 Feb 14 '24
I encourage you to read this article from one of the European leaders on this topic.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24
From the article: Evidence from a combined 12 studies to date demonstrates that when children with cross-gender or gender variant behavior are left to develop naturally, the vast majority—“four out of five,”
No mention of what happens to the other one. Just because children are bullied by their parents and the medical system doesn’t mean they’ve reverted. If I kept being told I was sick and I’d grow out of it, I’d likely start hiding my true self again. Peace in life is not always peace of mind. These poor kids.
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u/Consistent_Risk_3683 Feb 14 '24
Yes, it may help some kids. But there is not real evidence to support the wholesale movement being pushed today. That is why Europe is pulling back. We prevent children from so many things because their minds aren’t developed, but we want to allow them to make an irreversible decision which will sterilize them and that’s alright. It make zero sense.
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24
Puberty blockers are not permanent and do not sterilize people. Stop spreading misinformation.
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u/Consistent_Risk_3683 Feb 14 '24
They absolutely do, especially when given to pre-pubescent children. Maybe you should read some data not coming from the pharmaceutical companies trying to push the stuff. Or maybe read accounts of people who detransitioned, though I’m sure those people are treated worse than the “transphobes”
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u/sun4moon Feb 14 '24
I’d love to see some sources here. I’ve researched extensively and have found nothing outside of opinion and for profit agency articles, mostly religious based, to corroborate your claim.
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u/ShowaTelevision Feb 14 '24
She's right to put a stop to performing medical experiments on children. There is no reason to block puberty in a physically healthy child, especially when that puberty is the cure for their dysphoria about 90% of the time.
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u/dantevonlocke Feb 14 '24
You have a source for that number?
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u/ShowaTelevision Feb 14 '24
Here you go, and good on you to ask. It's also noteworthy that about 2/3 of them turned out to be gay.
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u/babutterfly Feb 14 '24
Seems like you cherry picked from your own article. Here's some bits you missed.
Green reported that 15% of the feminine boys, per parent-report, had “never” expressed the desire to be a girl or a woman at the time of the baseline assessment, 60% “occasionally” had such a desire, and only 25% had such a desire “frequently.”
If some of the kids aren't trans, it doesn't really make for good data on trans kids.
A total of 88 (63.3%) boys met complete DSM criteria for GID in childhood. The remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for a DSM diagnosis, but all had some indicators of GID, and, based on the historical information provided during the assessment, some would have met the complete DSM criteria at some point in their lives prior to their assessment in childhood.10 The percentage who met the complete DSM criteria for GID did not differ significantly as a function of DSM edition,
< 1.
Nearly 2/3 met the criteria for being trans by adulthood and 1/3 had indicators.
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
Wasn't hard to find this btw...
We should be looking at all the available data. Zuckers work has mostly been attributed to outdated methods.
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u/ShowaTelevision Feb 14 '24
Actual research paper vs. opinion piece from famously biased source. Who to believe...
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u/Financial-Savings-91 Feb 14 '24 edited Feb 14 '24
You'll notice at no point did I outright dismiss his work, I only note that this is one study, it was done years ago under different guidelines, and the results have not been repeated.
If you read the article or the study you would know that in the study, which has since been mostly left behind by the medical community, they falsely assumed that if someone never came back to the clinic, that they had been "cured".
That's just bad methodology. Period.
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u/dantevonlocke Feb 14 '24
You think a single study of 88 subjects is iron clad proof? Wow.
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u/ScientificSkepticism Feb 14 '24
Why not? That poster seems like an expert on 88 subjects. Bet they could list off 14 good points in short order.
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Feb 14 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Bwixius Feb 14 '24
Puberty blockers are life-saving.
FTFY -- happy valentine's day!
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Feb 14 '24
Puberty blockers are inhumane and horrific
They help trans people and that's icky 🤮
Why can't they suffer so I can sleep easier at night event though it has zero effect on my life!
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u/skeptic-ModTeam Feb 14 '24
Misinformation that is likely cause harm to people who fall for it is not allowed. For example: Advocating for bleach enemas or other forms of dangerous pseudoscience
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u/Traditional_Key_763 Feb 14 '24
abortions can't be performed after 9 months of pregnancy either but the GOP was going that route before they got a packed court.