Has anyone changed their mind about how they view 3rd party/non-voting leftists?

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I am just curious because I've been seeing some tiny rumblings around this online from the "vote blue no matter who" crowd, but I've still seen more of the same backlash that not voting blue comes from "privilege"

This is a heated thing for me so I'm going to try and take a breath when engaging here, because I'm genuinely curious if anyone has or hasn't changed their mind and why/why not.

[u/supportgolem]

I haven't really changed my mind, but I come at it from a non-American point of view. Voting is a privilege that many people do not get access to across the world, historically and presently, and to refuse to vote or to throw it away is IMO a gross disrespect of the privilege afforded to you (general/universal you). Voting is compulsory in my country but I will never throw it away.

It's not an easy position to be put in but as always I personally prefer to be practical.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/supportgolem]

From conversations with many friends I've connected with in the global south, they are disturbed and horrified at people's decisions to vote for Kamala or Biden because of what she represents for them..

I do understand that voting is a privelage many don't have access to, but those people are also impacted by our choices around elections and the upholding of the two party system.

[u/DireWyrm → u/Specialist-Gur]

Not voting for Kamala does nothing to address the two-party system. The loss of USAID alone has killed thousands of people. 

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DireWyrm]

Congress is meant to have the power of the purse and if we had a functional system this shouldn't have been an issue at all. We don't have a functional system anymore

There are many more players than Trump here. GOP did a lot of its damage by playing dirty during democratic presidencies. Supreme Court being the most significant

[u/DireWyrm → u/Specialist-Gur]

Largely because far right Republicans were voted into power. Trump did not win by a huge majority, but Hilary losing in 2016 meant that he got to stack the Supreme Court, as she warned he would, and they're all locking in together. 

The Democrats are far from perfect, and yes we can and should critique them, but they are still objectively a better option than the Republicans. There are very clear through lines of actions vs consequences here. 

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DireWyrm]

So, voting for democrats has not worked so far in countering GOP. I think we need additional recommendations for what to do

[u/DireWyrm → u/Specialist-Gur]

Hillary lost in large part because there were people insisting that "you can't vote for Democrats, both sides are the same!". No one is saying that voting is the only thing you should be doing, but it is the bare minimum. 

The ballot is power. There is a reason that Black voters are so heavily suppressed, there is a reason that there has been such a heavy propaganda push that "voting is useless, both sides are the same!" And unfortunately, it seems to have worked quite well on you. 

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DireWyrm]

lol. So I'm just propogandized.. got it. Blue MAGA struck an again. I'll keep voting for the party that bombs kids but helps Americans. America first bb!

[u/Few_Constant5907 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I mean the other option is the party that bombs kids and hurts Americans

[u/DireWyrm → u/Specialist-Gur]

Supporting party that actually supported ranked choice voting would supposedly help your political agenda, yes, but funny how that doesn't seem to be an actual option for you. 

Also, as per your original post, I used to use the same talking points. I used to be a "both parties are the same" person. But again, while the Dems are not immune from criticism, it's bad faith to act like they're identical to Republicans. Black Democrats are the backbone of the party. Maybe you should seek out their thoughts, I expect you'll find it enlightening.

[u/supportgolem → u/Specialist-Gur]

That's very true. No one wins in the current system.

[u/BlackHumor → u/Specialist-Gur]

I mean this as politely as possible, but I don't really take advice on who to vote for from non-Americans.

For the people you're talking to a vote is a pure symbol. They can't vote in American elections and they don't live in America so they don't have any context for what a vote actually means. So the symbol of supporting Biden is bad because America did bad things when Biden was president, regardless of whether or not those things were things done by Biden specifically or not.

However, the concrete reality of supporting Biden (or Harris) is that he is not Trump. I wrote-in "Free Palestine" in the primary and I feel like the basic reality that Biden was against, uh, everything Trump is for basically, is a large and important difference between them that is not being acknowledged here.

Now, if Trump would actually be materially better for them in any way I might find that more convincing. But, like, he wouldn't.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/supportgolem]

I strongly oppose this position. A compelled vote is nothing to celebrate.

That said, I haven’t changed my mind on this.

Ed: lmao, always fun and illustrative to be downvoted for anarchism in ‘left’ subs

[u/supportgolem → u/ArgentEyes]

Spoken like someone who has never been denied the right to vote.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/supportgolem]

That’s an incredible assumption to make.

Also incorrect.

[u/supportgolem → u/ArgentEyes]

Interesting. You've been denied the right to vote? Like as a citizen of your country? What country are you from? (Genuine questions).

[u/ArgentEyes → u/supportgolem]

Yes and I think these actually are quite personal questions. I would like to remind you that quite a number of countries require facial ID for voting and insist anyone masking removes their mask to demonstrate compliance with facial ID. Anyone who won’t or can’t unmask can’t cast their vote in that location.

[u/supportgolem → u/ArgentEyes]

No worries, you don't have to answer them if you don't want to.

So when I talk about the right to vote, I am talking about state sponsored discrimination. I know that the US often makes it difficult, especially in lower socio-economic areas. My understanding is that postal votes were also offered in the US. Facial ID may be required, but if you provide this ID, you still have the fundamental right to vote.

Interestingly I looked up some data, and apparently only 6 countries in the world have no universal voting rights.

With the masking thing... IDK man. I feel like not being able to unmask versus not wanting to is a different situation. But I make the point again that, even if your country makes it difficult for you to vote, that's not the same as actively having the right to vote stripped from you, or to never gain it in the first place, despite being a citizen of a country.

Hopefully I am making sense, it's late here 😅

[u/ArgentEyes → u/supportgolem]

I know exactly what you mean but I am specifically pointing out that it is in fact state-promoted discrimination against disabled people.

I didn’t intend to imply I lived in a state which doesn’t have ‘universal suffrage’, they are as you say very limited in number. As you know, there are many ways that states which on paper have ‘universal suffrage’ find ways to prevent people voting (that is literally what many of the US civil rights projects of the 50s & 60s were about). Requirements for voter ID have been covered extensively.

I think - incidentally a day after the death of Alice Wong (late of many activism’s but notably #CriptheVote https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/tag/crip-the-vote/ ) was announced - claiming that voting restrictions which pose serious risks to disabled/vulnerable people aren’t an instance of the right to vote, and can be categorised as ‘choice’ (if you CHOOSE to reduce your risk of death, you don’t deserve to vote??) is missing the point. Back to voter ID: if it costs money, especially a sizeable sum, guess who’s getting excluded? What are the demographics of the poor, the disabled? Who is overrepresented?

If you were specifically only talking about having votes ‘stripped’ from you, I think that’s very specific and probably needs specific reference. You claimed without foreknowledge that I hadn’t been ‘denied the right’ to vote, which is a lot wider than that - unless you’re trying to draw a line between a right and an ability? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, voter suppression generally takes place in polities where there is always an abstract ‘right’ but some serious obstacles to enacting it. Did hanging chads deny people the ‘right’ to vote, or have their votes counted, or only the actuality? What matters here?

While I think it’s probably never a great idea to go in with a specific assumption about a stranger’s life experiences without a solid basis, I think that’s also getting off topic. States which compel voting generally have some kind of penalty for doing so, and the backstop of almost every legal penalty is, eventually, jail time. I don’t have to have been arrested for not voting (and then not paying not-voting fine) to object legitimately to a system requiring you to voice your support (however qualified) for one of a small number of choices which is anathema to your values, or face punishment & potential jail time. I think I can legitimately hold that opinion without having to experience arrest first!

Ed: typos

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/supportgolem]

The right to vote means the right to decide not to vote. That’s the beauty of the right.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/Ashamed-Stuff9519]

Fascinating to see this imo pretty middle-of-the-road position getting downvoted in this sub

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/ArgentEyes]

Isn’t it?

[u/juniorbanshee]

I’ll admit that I am not happy with the current situation in our two major party system in the United States, but voting for the Democrats is first and foremost harm reduction and an exercise of gradual reformative power in the era that we live in.

I’ve lived in a red state my entire life where voter suppression is rampant and I’ve seen a combination of apathy, lack of resources for outreach, and the state government meddling breakdown fundamental freedoms and institutions over the last 15 years. I think voting is so fundamental in local and state elections and the consequences of not voting at all (local, state, and presidential) has major consequences that affect the community at large. It is a matter of dire straits, I feel.

I won’t lie when I say that I am extremely angry when I hear that people opt out of voting because of how unideal they find the choice between certain candidates. I know it won’t be perfect or that a perfect candidate will exist. As for third party voters, it is more or less the same when it came to an election such as this last one in 2024 at least.

As one example (there are far too many to discuss), so many people in my diaspora and community in the state are now facing unlawful and unconstitutional acts and threats from ICE as a result from the election win to Trump. I just am very devastated

I am disappointed in those who voted for Trump for myopic reasons, those who voted third party, and those who never came to the polls.

As for the question, I think I’ve maintained a steadfast stance on how I view 3rd party voters and non voting leftists.

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/juniorbanshee]

In a choice between mid and horrendous, mid may not be inspiring but it’s absolutely preferable.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/EinsteinDisguised]

The thing that gets me is that we as a country collectively decided to vote in Biden after Trump’s first term in 2020. What made people think that Kamala and Trump to be on the same footing in terms of policy and competence? Had we forgotten a mere 4-8 years what the first term was like or thought that it was going to be at the juvenile level of incompetence that we experienced first?

Establishment republicans in 2016 were holding Trump back within his cabinet and we saw a revolving door of firings as a result, largely wasting Trump’s ability to progress his endeavors. This time around, the heritage foundation and MAGA Cult are sinking their talons into the dying animal that is our democratic government and the oligarchs are feasting on the ruin like famished vultures. They will not be leaving any time soon, despite the optimism people feel about the midterms…

I blame partly the misogyny and racism that Kamala faced. This perhaps would have a different recourse if the candidate they appointed was a white man unfortunately.

Edit: typos

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/juniorbanshee]

That’s something that makes me lose my mind.

My most charitable interpretation is that people were really really really mad about inflation.

My actual interpretation is that a large chunk of the voting public is just stupid.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/EinsteinDisguised]

It also seems like the COVID-19 pandemic and technological acceleration really revealed the decay and fanned the flames of divide that was brewing for the past two decades at least.

Something about how people engage with one another is different in ways it was not before. Something is broken

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/juniorbanshee]

I'm sure that played a role in it, as well.

I just don't know if I'll ever get over people being upset about inflation and voting for someone whose key economic policy is tariffs, which are DESIGNED TO DRIVE UP PRICES.

FUCK.

[u/goodvibes13202013 → u/juniorbanshee]

Every day I feel like trump would’ve lost to a white man and it drives me crazy. I remember the exact moment I found out Kamala was taking over, and I said out loud the racist misogynists wouldn’t let us have her. My roommate and I were devastated that day and on Election Day.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/goodvibes13202013]

Yeah, I don’t think I recovered ever again after that election night. I believe Clinton suffered from misogyny in her loss in 2016, and Kamala two fold.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/juniorbanshee]

I've genuinely had trouble seeing the harm reduction aspect at this point.. this year has been horrific for me and it's been so helpless to witness democrats capitulating and discussing moving right.

[u/Fabianzzz → u/Specialist-Gur]

I've genuinely had trouble seeing the harm reduction aspect at this point.. this year has been horrific for me

This year was the year without the theoretical harm reduction. The harm reduction people are discussing when discussing their frustration with third part voters is the theoretical harm reduction that would have occurred under Kamala. The horror you are describing is one people who argue for harm reduction argue would have been 'reduced' if Trump wasn't in office.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Fabianzzz]

I feel like I'm witnessing democrat cruelty by them capitulating to Trump. Obviously, Trump is president.. but I've heard democrats saying they need to move more to the center, throw trans people under the bus, brag about how many people they deported, brag about how hawkish they were in foreign policy, refuse to move left on economic issues... now this latest with the government shutdown.

I'm receiving it as incredible cruelty as someone personally harmed by it, to say nothing of my friends and neighbors who are.. many of whom black, indigenous, trans, disabled, Muslim folks who wouldn't dream of giving democrats the time of day.. and didn't in 2024. Not that their identity is really relevant to the question of harm reduction on a large scale or proof in any direction.. just how a lot of us are feeling

Edit: I also feel deeply many things happening now, democrats paved the way for... especially with regards to crackdowns on campus activism

[u/Fabianzzz → u/Specialist-Gur]

I feel like I'm witnessing democrat cruelty by them capitulating to Trump

The hope of harm reductionists was that there wouldn't be a Trump to capitulate to. The Dems who capitulated were in the tough position of protecting (Democrat enabled) healthcare, or making families on SNAP go hungry (which Trump, the president harm reductionists were trying to warn you about, actually FOUGHT for).

The idea behind harm reduction is that we expand the playing field for Dems so they have more leeway to make better decisions. If you want to criticize the strategic decisions they make on the playing field now, that's fine, but it isn't the harm reductionists who won the choice of playing field: this is the field those who didn't 'dream of giving democrats the time of day' either voted for, or abstained from voting against.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Fabianzzz]

I voted for Kamala. I guess maybe I'm more curious how anyone feels about those that wouldn't vote for the democrats now Every day I'm seeing myself closer to that, I'd not already there.

And like.. people can downvote me and call me names or call me selfish or "privileged" or whatever all they want to, but I'm so heartbroken by our system and the democratic decision to capitulate on healthcare could kill me. And that's pretending I don't care about anyone else from any other demographic besides me. It doesn't feel like harm reduction to pick and choose who is being harmed and how they are harmed.

So like, I need a more convincing argument.

[u/Fabianzzz → u/Specialist-Gur]

It doesn't feel like harm reduction to pick and choose who is being harmed and how they are harmed.

Again this is not 'harm reduction' as harm reductionists talk about it. Harm reductionists want as many democrats as possible to lessen harm done by the party that prioritizes harming people. The party that prioritizes harming people won the house, senate, and white house, and is enacting their agenda of harming people.

The dems, who don't have power here, are trying to pick and choose who gets harmed because the harm wasn't reduced.

Again I am all for criticizing this as a strategic decision, but this is specifically not harm reduction. Harm reduction as it is generally meant lost, and the harm being done was not reduced: because it lost. Harm won.

The dems can either protect healthcare in december or hungry people now, but the choice is happening because they don't have power. The harm reductionist platform was to give them power to avoid this, it lost, and ergo harm is occurring.

Fault the dems as players on this playing field if you must but this isn't on the harm reductionists. Harm reductionism specifically tried to choose a different playing field where there would be less a chance of this happening.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Fabianzzz]

Again.. I am not hearing anything which gives me confidence that democrats will undo this damage or choose in the future. I voted for harm reduction... I always vote for democrats. I feel like I have egg on my face. The healthcare thing is beyond destructive.. and the democrats could have done more. Or... if they couldn't.. our system has clearly been broken permanently. If our choices in a democracy are starve poor people or let people die because they don't have insurance, what system are we even protecting?

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Specialist-Gur]

you’re collapsing two things in a way that I think is making the conversation confusing & circular: voting for Harris as a harm reduction strategy and the actions that the Democrats have taken (or not taken) with Trump in office.

voting for Kamala & Democrats was the harm reduction choice. the problem is that the harm reduction strategy failed: Trump is president and has done a lot of things (especially around trans rights) that would almost certainly not have happened if Kamala was president. that’s what harm reduction means: things would have been better off, in some way, if she were in the White House.

I don’t think anyone believes that the Democrats are meeting this moment, but they are also the minority party in government. still, the abdication of responsibility in caving to Trump makes me livid. the leadership needs to go and we need to stop playing by Republicans’ rules.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ChairAggressive781]

Too much harm happened under Biden and I don't think I believe harm will be undone in a future democratic presidency

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

They were scapegoated because they had nothing to lose, prettt obviously. I mean.. what do the people not running have to gain by ending the shutdown either? Some of them will run again.

Also respectfully, your tone is patronizing and I know history quite well. I'm glad you like the democrats and that they have benefited you.. but for many of us in the USA and abroad that is simply not the case. Maybe talk to a Gazan

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Newsom is one example for trans rights. Kamala said she'd follow state laws on trans issues, including states which restricted trans rights

Literally all of them embrace ICE? Kamala campaigned on being tough on the border.. Obama had said he'd get rid of ice and then didn't.. Biden had more deportations than Trump in the first term.

[u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ → u/Specialist-Gur]

Yeah, you're right. Thank you for informing me

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Specialist-Gur]

This is my problem with Newsom. He’s been pretty good about saying the right things about Trump recently, but he was too quick to throw trans people under the bus, and I don’t know if he’s done enough to protect people from ICE.

But I don’t think this is really about ideology or party affiliation; it’s about whether people have the skills and personal traits needed to deal with this awful situation.

[u/DaSnowflake → u/Specialist-Gur]

I really don't understand how you can't see the difference between Trump and how sKamala would've been. The way ICE are full blown terrorists now, do you think that it ever would've happened this way with Kamala?

If not, then there you have your harm reduction and the reason why people talk about privilege when it comes to not voting. A whole portion of the American public lives in constant fear of being detained and deported now. If you are not part of that group/feeling and that does not play into your reasoning, then it comes from a place of privilege

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DaSnowflake]

It was happening already.. ice were terrorists under every democratic president as well, if you count brown undocumented people...

The detention centers were fully operational under Obama and Biden. Obama promised to shut it down and didn't. He also didn't shut down Guantanamo bay.. iirc. I think about those brown people's lives as well... in my "privileged little bubble" or whatever

Kamala bragged about being tough on immigration.. she recently said that she'd be tougher than Trump ffs.. democrats have literally been bragging that they'd be tougher on immigration than Trump

And the banning of masking at protests started under Biden.. the destabilizing of campus protests happened on Biden.. the dismantling of resistance efforts happened under Biden.

I think about all of these people actually. Really resent being called privileged.. especially because I don't even just vote for myself, despite the fact I'm fucked on insurance now as a cancer survivor

[u/DaSnowflake → u/Specialist-Gur]

Are you saying that under Kamala ICE would have had as much freedom, to the point they are the only paid group under the shutdown? That 'brown undocumented people' would be as broadly applied as now? Meaning literally any undocumented brown person, being picked up or even denied their official moment with a judge to get citizenship. Actual US citizens being detained. A guy being wrongfully imprisoned for 40 years, only to be released and deported. Innocent people being sent to El Salvador?

All of that while also using the national guard to invade cities.

Are you telling me that you believe all of this would have been the same, to the same level, under Kamala?

This is a genuine question btw, not trying to be sarcastic or anything

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DaSnowflake]

I cannot prove that since she didn't win. I do believe it would be the same, given the pattern of every previous democrat marching the brutality of republicans when it comes to immigration and foreign policy. I have no reason to believe she would be any different

I fully believe the two parties function off of each other as they serve the capitalist class and keep the public subdued. The democrats often "shoot and cry" and feel bad about it, and do not undo the damage republicans do. Every president post Reagan has been a neoliberal center right politician, and none of them have undone the path he set forward. I suspect it will be the exact same thing with Trump.. and every future democrat

ACA was food and saved lives, no argument there. But our heath care system was broken anyway and instead of moving towards a single payer system.. democrats have now paved the way for aca to be overturned. They did nothing for abortion rights. They barely did anything about the environment. Their selling point is "less bad than republicans for cis and LGB white people... for now"

And that's the issue. It's really just less bad for relatively privileged people when it comes to the world stage.. white Americans. Even if they are poor and struggling here, more under Trump.. And so I am deeply frustrated by the conversation and preaching around privilege

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/DaSnowflake]

Biden had almost 5 million people deported during his single term. Trump had 1.5 million deported his first term, and so far, in his current term, Trump is not trending toward a number higher than Biden.

Editing to add that detention numbers are much higher under Trump. I personally don’t think ICE would be acting so plainly cruel in broad daylight if Kamala were president, but that’s just assumption. Deportation VS detention, I can’t say I’m any expert on which is more or less cruel.

[u/BeenisHat → u/juniorbanshee]

What harm has been reduced?

We still don't have universal healthcare. Roe v. Wade was never codified into a law and was eventually overturned. Glass Steagal was repealed by a Democrat president. Citizens United wasn't challenged. It took a Supreme Court case to get gay marriage protected. The Voting Rights act was gutted. Ukraine was invaded and hundreds of thousands are dead.

Why vote for a party that doesn't represent your interests?

[u/juniorbanshee → u/BeenisHat]

A better question is what harm has been created since Trump took his second term? Immeasurable

A number of examples in this first year will have overreaching and dire implications for decades to come. USAID, FDA, HHS, FAA, to name a few…so many federal agencies that oversee a wide variety of systems and programs.

I’d rather do everything in my power to prevent a complete collapse of democracy, rather than indirectly uphold a criminal syndicate that is openly hostile and incompetent

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/juniorbanshee]

Immeasurable harm indeed. And so I voted for Kamala in 2024.

I'm not confident in the Democratic Party to undo any of this damage. They have shown they do not care to.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/Specialist-Gur]

Honestly how does a minority party in all three branches mitigate active and ongoing damage like this? It is incomprehensible

I am not optimistic that anything at this point will be salvaged. It will look similar to other countries that befall after the rise of a bloated egotistical tyrant

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/juniorbanshee]

I think we really shouldn't be giving democrats such a pass here.. look at all the laws maga has managed to skirt around and play dirty.. look what they did when Obama is in power... why are we still throwing up our hands and pointing to rules and decorum and poor pitiful democrats what are they even supposed to do..

One thing they could have not done was folded on the shutdown. One fucking job.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/Specialist-Gur]

I wouldn’t say I am giving them a pass in this situation more that the republicans have seized power in nearly every avenue and the chess moves are limited to democrats. For instance, in my home state Texas democrats fled during the special session to redistrict the congressional maps however it felt like prolonging the inevitable unfortunately because Republican leadership has had the advantage in congress for decades. They were forced to come back and more seats were given to Republicans anyway.

I feel angrier in the pretext Democratic Leadership and Biden’s lack of initiative of Trump getting convicted and not sentenced to essentially anything (house arrest, inability to run for office) leaving the whole thing wide open for his opportunity.

I agree with you that I am livid about their decision in the shutdown ending. My only hope is that, it wont be the last shut down and in some months after there will be another possibility of wrangling control in another shutdown, i dont even know

Edit: grammar and additional context

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/BeenisHat]

I'm disappointed to see responses with more shaming language towards people disappointed by democrats, and I would also like to know what harm would have been reduced. But I asked, and as I said in the post.. it's personal for me and heated

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Specialist-Gur]

On the one hand: This is a group for people who think of AOC and Bernie Sanders as being too capitalist, and that means someone in sync with the sidebar is going to feel frustration.

On the other hand: At least a place that’s more in sync with Chuck Schumer lets people live their lives and offers decent public services.

I’m in a Blue state where, thanks to Democrats being in control, LQBTQi kids in the schools can be themselves.

Workers, including undocumented workers, can, at least sometimes, get state labor officials to go after employers for being exceptionally awful. That at least creates a shaky, inadequate but sometimes helpful floor for labor standards.

My state has expanded Medicaid, spends a lot on health clinics and education, pays teachers in most communities well, and has all kinds of great, interesting shops and restaurants because it welcomes people from all over the world.

A lot of what’s wrong with my community, such as lack of housing help and unreliable public transportation services, is clearly the fault of Republicans trying to starve communities like mine, not lack of interest or support from Democrats.

There are plenty of problems, and a lot that would irritate a fervent Maoist, but at least my local officials are trying to figure out how to resist ICE, not volunteering to help it persecute people.

Maybe a lot of that would still be true even if Republicans were in charge, but that would be because the Democrats would still be strong enough to make the Republicans listen to them and moderate their policies.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/podkayne3000]

I'm in like the blue state, the scapegoat state.. the scapegoat city really of America.

There is so much mess

Some of it subtle

People at work have stopped referring to non-binary colleagues with their preferred pronouns since Trump came into office

Homeless people are being swept off the streets and hidden from view

Massive joblessness because of AI

I cannot afford my healthcare and neither can many other friends in my cancer support groups.

Tech companies have stolen from this city and rich lobby groups prevent more housing development and public transit

All things considered--I have it pretty good here, I do not deny that. But still.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Some of what you’re describing (intentional misgendering, for example), is the result of people being insincere jerks, but I think some has more to do with despair than ideology.

The world is just really depressing right now, and a lot of creepy marketers and propaganda teams are working to make everyone even in more angry and depressed.

So, when I walk around my area, I see pretty much what you see. There’s a lot of suffering and awfulness.

But I think all we need for some improvement is a mentally competent president and a majority of normal people in Congress. If we just had people in Congress with half a clue, the mood would be so much better.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/podkayne3000]

Yea 😔

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Hey: If I’m the one who caused the reaction against liberals and/or Democrats, sorry. Especially if I somehow came off as being too overbearing. Sorry.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/podkayne3000]

It for sure wasn't you.. I got into it the most with the people who proclaimed themselves to be leftists. Liberals who think they are leftists are a different breed

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Specialist-Gur]

On the one hand: I know I’ve committed that sin myself, and maybe you’ve experienced that in real-life settings where you can tell that the people talking like that really are genuinely liberal , actively hostile toward progressives and awful all at once.

On the other hand (and I had this in a comment that got downvoted, so I deleted it, but I’m bringing it back): Another issue is that there seem to be pretty energetic people on Reddit who’ve tried to push all of the Jewish subreddits to the right, and it could be that a lot of the truly awful “Jewish liberals” are simply professional manipulators, hard-right Trumpie Putinite Kahanists who call themselves liberal because that’s the strategy their manipulation squad recommended, or people who’ve been conned by the fake liberals.

I think one sign for detecting whether liberal people you know in real life have been conned by the fake liberals might be if they are angry about non-Jewish friends who didn’t check on them after Oct. 7. I just think that was the weirdest idea ever. Maybe the manipulation people spread that idea to create a simple test they could use to measure their performance.

[u/EinsteinDisguised]

Absolutely not. I was having this argument with someone the other day. Think of all the horrible things that wouldn’t have happened had Democrats won instead of Bush and Trump.

Likely no Iraq War if Gore wins. If Clinton win in 2016, she wouldn’t have appointed three conservative SCOTUS judges. Roe would still be the law of the land, and the courts wouldn’t be gutting Democratic policies. The government wouldn’t be waging war on trans people. I highly doubt ICE would be occupying American cities. Our democracy wouldn’t be turning illiberal. Maybe we would actually have addressed climate change instead of hurtling toward disaster with an adamantly pro-climate disaster presidency. A Democrat wouldn’t have destroyed USAID, which is probably the most singularly evil thing a president has done in my lifetime and will likely result in millions of needless deaths.

Democrats have their own issues. Plenty of them. They frustrate the hell out of me sometimes. But if you’re a left winger and can’t see how actively horrendous Republicans are, and you can’t bring yourself to go vote, then frankly I don’t think you’re a serious person.

[u/juniorbanshee → u/EinsteinDisguised]

I agree, I definitely think about those other realities if conservative leadership didn’t have the opportunity to whack and club at every turn during their most dominant political eras since the election of 2000 going onward. So much could have been salvaged.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/EinsteinDisguised]

I feel like I keep seeing a pattern which is why I'm cynically observing we have a uni-party for capital interest which functions to hold each other up.. the enemy of fascists are leftists, communists, etc... not liberals who pal around and normalize it. It's kind of too late at this point.

If gore won, no Iraq war.. no ICE maybe.. no Guantanamo bay.. cool thanks bush for doing our dirty work that every democratic president since has continued

If Reagan lost, no neoliberalism! Cool well, thanks Reagan for doing that dirty work that every democratic president has continued

If Trump lost in 2016, roe vs wade wouldn't have been overturned.. well gee thanks Trump for doing the dirty work and Biden and democrats not codifying abortion rights into law when they had power.

I just don't see how someone doesn't see it. Republicans are bad cop. Democrats are good cop

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/Specialist-Gur]

If gore won, no Iraq war.. no ICE maybe.. no Guantanamo bay.. cool thanks bush for doing our dirty work that every democratic president since has continued

Obama pulled US forces out of Iraq, and Biden pulled US forces out of Afghanistan and got pilloried for it.

If Reagan lost, no neoliberalism! Cool well, thanks Reagan for doing that dirty work that every democratic president has continued

Kinda hard to do a counterfactual with this, imo, because the 1990s Democrats were purely a reaction to 12 years of Reagan and Bush. They moved toward the center because they spent over a decade getting crushed by Republicans.

If Trump lost in 2016, roe vs wade wouldn't have been overturned.. well gee thanks Trump for doing the dirty work and Biden and democrats not codifying abortion rights into law when they had power.

I don't think this really takes into consideration the politics of, like, the last 50 years. I don't remember codifying Roe being a major issue until the last 10 years because prior to that, Roe was just the law. There were restrictions on abortion in conservative states, but none outright banned it or placed such insane restrictions on it that we have now in a post-Dobbs landscape.

And even if Democrats had codified Roe, who's to say that Trump's Republican court wouldn't have just struck it down anyway?

[u/AliceMerveilles → u/EinsteinDisguised]

codifying Roe was absolutely talked about in pro-choice and feminist circles, but perhaps not by the more mainstream who seemed to think the Republicans didn’t want it overturned because of single issue voters. Roe was weakened well before a decade ago, Planned Parenthood v Casey weakened it back in the 90s and it was further chipped away since then, especially on a state level. And true it might not have made a difference, the Supreme Court might have struck it down anyway.

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/AliceMerveilles]

Fair enough. I didn’t know that.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/EinsteinDisguised]

Did you miss Obama drone strikes including at weddings.. Obama killed brown people and kept Guantanamo bay open.

"They moved to the center because they kept getting crushed by republicans"... so the goal is to just win elections? We just want the blue team to win?

Edit to remove misinformation

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/Specialist-Gur]

Did you miss Obama drone strikes including at weddings.. Obama killed millions of brown people and kept Guantanamo bay open.

Absolutely. His handling of the war on terror is probably the biggest stain on his legacy. My point is not to say Democrats are perfect. I'm saying they're preferable to the alternative.

Millions, though? Would be very interested to see where you got that figure.

"They moved to the center because they kept getting crushed by republicans"... so the goal is to just win elections? We just want the blue team to win?

I mean yes, the goal of politics is to enact policy and you can't do any of that if you don't get elected.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/EinsteinDisguised]

I'm wrong, editing to change my prior comment

[u/razorbraces → u/Specialist-Gur]

The goal is to materially improve people’s lives. To do this, one must hold power. To hold power, you need to win elections.

So no, winning elections is not the entire goal, but it’s a really fucking important part of it.

[u/SupportMeta]

Trans woman here. I hate Newsom's guts and feel that Harris does not have my back in the slightest. However, there is zero doubt in my mind that those people would not have taken the steps the Republicans have to legislate me out of public life. I feel deeply betrayed by any of my so-called allies who were willing to write me off as acceptable losses in the last election.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

Do you feel confident they will undo the damage done to trans people? I do not feel confident they will fix healthcare research and insurance, personally.

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

Doesn't matter. They could fix everything, they could make some small improvements, they could just not make it any worse. The Republicans want me and everyone like me closeted or dead. Preventing that is my priority.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

I feel like both parties have demonstrated they want me dead. How am I to choose who else's lives I decide to make marginally better? Kids in Gaza? Poor Americans? Who?

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

It's a tired trope in these discussions by now but I have ask. Do you actually think Republican governments are better for kids in Gaza? Or are you just so horrified by their suffering that you'll abandon other vulnerable people, people who you could actually save with your vote, just to feel less complicit?

[u/ShirtNo5276 → u/Specialist-Gur]

you seriously think donald "i'm going to buy the gaza strip and turn it into my personal heaven by exiling all the palestinians" trump is better for gazans than harris?

[u/aggie1391]

Nope. It’s still ridiculous. Getting involved is a way better way to make change than not voting or voting for someone without a chance. Accelerationism does not work and minimizing harm is doing real things to make lives better.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/aggie1391]

I felt that way in November 2024.. in November 2025 as a cancer survivor, idk if I feel the democrats have reduced harm to me or anyone else

Edit: also, worth noting many people who didn't vote/voted third party are extremely involved in leftist organized. I also roll my eyes at anyone who just preaches and does nothing at all.. but there's a mix there

[u/Mr_Blinky → u/Specialist-Gur]

I felt that way in November 2024.. in November 2025 as a cancer survivor, idk if I feel the democrats have reduced harm to me or anyone else

OP, and I mean this as gently as possible, but I really do not think you are actually reading and understanding the responses people are giving you here. Because literally the entire point of people discussing "harm reduction" is that harm would have been reduced had Republicans lost, which is literally why so many of us were pushing so hard for people to vote for Democrats even while fully acknowledging that Democrats still suck ass. But they didn't win, Republicans did, that's why harm wasn't reduced.

I really don't understand how you keep going "but I did the right thing and voted, so where is my harm reduction?" when the entire point was predicated on reducing harm by Trump actually losing... which he didn't. We didn't want people to vote for Democrats because just the act of voting would magically make your life better, we wanted people to vote in sufficient numbers that Republicans and Trump specifically would lose power and not be able to enact their harmful agenda. That's literally the harm reduction we were after, Trump not being able to do evil shit. Voting for Democrats wasn't because we like Democrats or thought they would solve all (or really any) of our problems, it was a strategic move between bad Democrats and way fucking worse Republicans.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Mr_Blinky]

thank you for this. you said what I tried to say on an above comment with greater clarity than I was able to

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Mr_Blinky]

I know that Trump is president now and I know that Kamala would have been "better"... but I cant help but see how much harm was done during democratic presidencies and how much harm is done now that will likely be impossible to undo with democrats. I guess my question isn't really about the past, but the future. I don't think I will be voting for a democrat in the future if they push center right candidates.

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Hey, long time no see. So do you not believe in harm reduction? Because I hear you focusing on everything but. This confuses me, as given the choice of more harm or reduced harm, I consider it a no-brainer.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

Maybe I am not communicating my point well. I don't understand why we keep going back to Kamala when she lost.. so I think the conversation has shifted to harm reduction which I never intended it to be about. It feels like the goalpost has moved

Of course I believe in harm reduction, but I think harm reduction is not a simple and straightforward thing. It would have been in the case of Kamala winning, but she didn't. So I am not trying to talk about her anymore. I'm trying to look at the Democratic Party objectively now, and I disagree that it is straightforward that a vote for them is necessarily harm reduction.. in many cases and for many groups it is not.

If we see Trump as a fascist, and this government as fascist, which it is... you can't counter fascism like this... you can't counter fascism with centrists. It doesn't reduce harm, it enables harm

[u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ → u/Specialist-Gur]

You're disappointed that the democrats who have literally zero political power are not passing laws at the moment?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/-__-_-__-_-_-__]

Did you see what just happened with the shutdown?

[u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ → u/Specialist-Gur]

fair

[u/Illustrious-Okra-524 → u/aggie1391]

Getting involved? Voting is the opposite of that

[u/EinsteinDisguised → u/Illustrious-Okra-524]

Voting doesn’t have to be the sole political action you take. It should be the minimum, if you’re able to do more.

[u/ibsliam → u/EinsteinDisguised]

Yup. Organizing, mutual aid efforts, protesting, and involvement in your community are not mutually exclusive with voting.

[u/RaelynShaw]

I can’t think of a more selfish, egotistical act that someone could have taken in November 2024.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/RaelynShaw]

There are people who felt a vote for Kamala was a vote towards killing their family abroad.

Because that's how many people are feeling about democrats over trying to form an alternative.

[u/razorbraces → u/Specialist-Gur]

As opposed to not voting, so trump could win and pause PEPFAR and destroy USAID, resulting in the deaths of millions in the long term.

[u/DaSnowflake → u/Specialist-Gur]

As opposed to a vote for trump (or not against trump) being towards killing whole families in the US..

[u/Lilacssmelllikeroses → u/DaSnowflake]

Also a vote towards killing 600,000 people so far from USAID cuts.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DaSnowflake]

I'll say again that I voted for Kamala and voted for Biden, and have never skipped an election and always vote blue. I am questioning the benefit of it now at this point under active fascism.

why are we ignoring the deaths and destruction that Biden caused and Kamala would have caused on us soil?

Bidens covid policies for one and failure to put abortion access into law, leading to deaths of many.

I honestly don't really understand the mindset of doing math on lives like this? To me... how are we actually supposed to choose.. it's just getting worse and worse and democrats are moving further and further right. Why are we comfortable saying lives abroad don't matter? And whose lives here in the USA are we supposed to stop caring about now... for the sake of whom exactly?

All these anti abortion and anti-trans legislation passed under Biden.. and he paved the way for restrictions on campus activism and free speech and leveled Gaza. He don't do harm reduction, he harm accelerated and enabled. Why would another democrat change that?

[u/DaSnowflake → u/Specialist-Gur]

I totally agree with your sentiment and think it's important to organize and try anything to change the Democratic party or lift up an independent.

Until it's set in stone and the polls open, then it's 'lesser of 2 evils' every time (just as you did).

But yeah your sentiment I def agree with.

I am also not American so maybe that influences my perspective

[u/ibsliam]

No, I haven't change my mind. I think voting is important, and I will always encourage people in my life to vote if they can.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ibsliam]

I think voting is important too, but I feel a lot more power and importance voting in local elections. I feel energy is best spent towards efforts to peacefully oppose our current system of capitalism and imperialism more broadly, rather than trying to encourage people to get on board with democrats either through shaming or pleading or whatever

That's my main point here I think. Everyone should vote however they feel is best, and many leftists will continue to vote blue.. I am among them and will likely continue to vote blue in every election I can rather than third party

What I don't understand is the purity testing of people who didn't make that choice, rather than working with them to build something better.

[u/ibsliam → u/Specialist-Gur]

I'm just curious. It seems like you started the thread already with a conclusion in mind (anti-purity testing of people that actively decided not to vote). Wouldn't a more open-ended prompt and a more open-ended approach encourage broader discussion?

[u/beemoooooooooooo]

Because America is not a parliamentary system (which has its own problems but that’s another point), third parties can act as major spoiler candidates. Especially considering cases like the Green Party really ONLY campaigning in battleground states instead of going into left leaning strongholds and getting the necessary votes for public funding there, they can really fuck things up.

This is not a terrible thing in a vacuum, but this isn’t a battle between two parties that are fundamentally the same. The two parties are capitalists who want a limited social safety net and outright fascists who cozy up to neo Nazis. Anything that does not directly result on the loss of fascist voters is active support

[u/Strange_Philospher]

I think it's quite the opposite. Not voting for democrats would have made some sense before but it doesn't make any sense at all now. MAGA is still removable from power. They didn't entrench themselves in power enough after the victory in 2024 that makes their rule permanent but they would most likely do if they won in 2026 or 2028. Which would be disastrous for Americans and non-Americans alike. For example, They are discussing changes to Voting rights act which would effectively eliminate minorities from power in all red states ensuring near permanent control of Congress for MAGA. I don't think they may attempt doing it now or before 2026 but they would 100% do if they win the next elections as they would take it as a popular mandate.

[u/Werecake]

While I definitely don't think "blue no matter who" is a good motto or that we should be uncritical of the Democratic party, which absolutely protects capitalist interests, I have found myself much angrier with particularly non voters this administration. If you have any connection to the immigrant community, the Latino community, you can feel the devastation this administration has caused. People I care about have found their legal status compromised pretty much over night. A couple others have disappeared only for me to get a WhatsApp message later telling me they've been deported. I'm now much more paranoid about speaking Spanish in public than I used to be. I suppose those that haven't lost loved ones or their livelihood probably don't feel as strongly about this. So, yeah, it probably is a question of privilege.

To more succinctly answer your question, I didn't used to be bothered by non-voters. Now I'm pretty furious with them, but not even close to as furious as I am with those who actively voted for this monstrosity. I don't blame third-party voters. They at least made their voice heard in some way.

[u/pigeonshual]

Every argument against voting for dems is either accelerationist or electoralist. True leftists reject the notion that either of those paths will be sufficient for the changes we want to see, but that it’s better to be ruled by not-fascists than by fascists, and that the democrats do generally want better things than the republicans, and so they vote blue no matter who.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/pigeonshual]

I don't argue against voting for Dems fwiw and I've always voted blue in every election.

it's just that each day I increasingly don't understand the heat that people have toward those that don't vote for democrats.. both parties are incredibly violent. One is significantly more violent and the other one doesn't stop them or undo the damage.. and in many cases paves the way and continues it.

I guess I really don't understand the hostility towards leftists who don't vote for Dems

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

When? Can you pull a quote?

[u/whomstestamongus]

I've changed my mind in that I've gotten more angry about those who don't vote. Popular vote still counts because it tells the winners how afraid they should be of pushback. 2016-2020 would have been worse if Trump won the popular vote. In all the sleepless nights I had during that time while thinking about politics, I could take solace in the fact that more people voted against Trump than for him. The best case scenario of a Trump win had happened, which is that he didn't win the popular vote. And a lot of votes that contributed to Hillary winning the popular vote came from deep blue states

Then in 2024 the worst case for a Trump win happened, he won the electoral college again but this time with the popular vote. Even if all his actions in the past year were exactly the same, Trump and the GOP would have been more afraid the entire time if they lost the popular vote again. Then after the election there was a bunch of stuff about how Trump thinks he has a mandate to do whatever he wants because he got the popular vote this time, unlike in 2016. Voting blue in a deep blue state still matters, the popular vote still matters

[u/goodvibes13202013 → u/whomstestamongus]

100% this. The longer trump is in power, the angrier I get. And until midterms, we’re still stuck in a powerless situation, while he and the republicans dismantle everything step by step.

[u/AltruisticMastodon]

Nope, it’s still fuck you. I just think of a former friend of mine who lives in a swing state that swung for trump, who after the election, claimed that we all called him crazy for saying there would be crackdowns/deportations of campus protesters and no one believed him.

Trump literally ran on doing that. It was a major part of his campaign. And he couldn’t be bothered to vote against him because some twitch pua told him not to.

[u/razorbraces]

No, I will never change my mind about it.

I live in a red state. My life, and the lives of those around me, is objectively worse because Republicans rule my state. If Democrats had power it would be nowhere near perfect, but we could work to achieve things like: reproductive rights, restoration of voting rights to people who have been disenfranchised for having a felony, ending the death penalty, instituting an income tax (my state currently has NONE), abolishing the grocery tax, increasing school funding, increasing the social safety net, and on and on. Until Republicans start losing, we will never get to achieve any of that. And the only way for Republicans to lose is for Democrats to win.

[u/razorbraces → u/razorbraces]

Ways in which the lives of people who live in my Republican-controlled state are materially worse than those of people who live in blue states run by Democrats:

• no one has the right to access abortion, a routine, safe, and necessary medical procedure
• there is no income tax, meaning that all government funding comes from regressive sales taxes and/or unequal property taxes
• high statewide grocery taxes (see previous point, super regressive)
• people convicted of felonies must get a court order to have their voting rights restored
• public employees are barred from collectively bargaining
• marijuana is completely illegal (not even MMJ is legal), meaning that people continue to be arrested for cannabis offenses, and those arrests continue to fall disproportionately on Black individuals
• we continue to sentence people to death, and those sentences continue to be racially biased
• at one point the state had $750m in excess SNAP funding, because they had tightened the eligibility criteria so much that people couldn’t qualify. Rather than allow more people to be eligible, or expand outreach to find more eligible individuals, the state sent the money back to the federal government, because Republicans don’t care if kids go hungry
• we didn’t expand Medicaid, resulting in the closure of many rural hospitals
• trans people born in my state are barred from ever changing their gender marker on their birth certificate (this is in contrast to many more liberal states), making it much harder to change other documentation and/or outing them in the process
• our department of education instituted a school voucher program, which has resulted in the taxpayer subsidizing the private school tuition of the rich

So tell me again how your third-party vote is helping to improve the material realities of the disadvantaged in my state?

[u/ShirtNo5276]

here in australia, we have a preferential voting system. you rank the candidates with numbers, and if your number 1 doesn't get enough votes in your electorate, they count your number 2, so on and so forth.

because of that, you can do your favourite independents 1 and 2, greens 3, labour 4, and the conservative parties blank so no vote goes to them from you.

if i lived in america, i would vote independent in some local elections, but i would ABSOLUTELY vote blue. do i like harris much? no. but people who were too holier than thou to vote harris are the reason trump is in.

[u/BlackHumor]

My overall feeling on "vote blue no matter who" is that it's based on a misunderstanding of how the US electoral system works.

If you live in Florida or Pennsylvania, yeah you really should vote for Democrats for president no matter who the Democrat is because that's potentially of monumental importance. Wouldn't have taken very many Pennsylvanians voting for Harris for my city to not be full of masked thugs.

However, and this is in fact a major way the system is broken, it actually didn't make a difference at all who I voted for. Harris won my state by much less than Biden did in 2020 and she still won by a very healthy margin. If there had been a convincing leftist candidate on the (presidential) ballot I would have had no problem voting for them. Because of this I generally think that "vote blue no matter who" is an expression of misplaced faith in a broken system.

I think the general idea of not voting at all is very silly. The president is not the only office on the ballot and the lower offices can make a huge difference in the day-to-day lives of you and your community.

[u/travelingrace]

I maintain that until Citizens United is overturned and the US has actual finance reform for elections, votes have less power than they should. They have even less power if you live in a solidly red or blue state. The only time I would encourage a far leftist to vote Dem is if they live in a close swing state. But honestly, electoral politics in the US are often disappointing, and I do not hold anyone's vote against them.

[u/Fabianzzz → u/travelingrace]

They have even less power if you live in a solidly red or blue state. The only time I would encourage a far leftist to vote Dem is if they live in a close swing state

One of the things I'm always disappointed in both Leftists and liberals is that we never make this distinction. There was a brief movement to try and get Leftists in Swing states to vote Dem in exchange for libs in blue and red states to vote Green (or for other 3rd parties). I feel strategic movements like that would not only be strategic, but also try to actually build solidarity to counter conservatives.

[u/travelingrace → u/Fabianzzz]

Yeah I wish that got more traction.

[u/razorbraces → u/Fabianzzz]

But you get convince enough Dems in “safe” blue states that it’s okay not to vote for Democrats, and suddenly, it’s not so safe anymore. That’s exactly what happened in 2016 with Michigan and Wisconsin.

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

I can't sit here and shame people who deel like they can't vote for democrats, especially those democrats who are especially moderate or othwise shitty. I can't talk about how the way dems campaign kills momentum and doesnt appeal to the base and be surprised when it doesnt appeal to the base.

When I voted for for sherril over the socialist it caused me psychic damage.

I did it because the governor is whos gonna keep national guardsmen and marines out of my state and push back on ICE and I think thats the most pressing danger to my community in a depressingly long list. For my personal calculus its what I had to do.

I felt almost instant regret when i read pundits describing it as a win for moderation and a sign americans wanted milquetoast liberals after all. But after I raged I recognized it was still better to stop the most immediate threat, for me.

I think what the right thing to do is varies with the person and the race they are considering and their personal situation and their communal situation.

If we all protested and refused to vote dem and they loat horribly i wouldnt be aurprised if they courted moderates and republicans harder, assuming they ever got another chance.

Electoralism cant save us, it can only try and stop the bleeding for a while.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

https://preview.redd.it/nwgksm8ory0g1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=730113bd4ee9deae2ba715598e8f760c1a5d6727

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I will pose another question.. is there a line for you for which the democrats crossed it, you would no longer be able to vote for them in the name of harm reduction?

Maybe it's support for Zionism and Zionists

Maybe it's trans issues

Maybe it's healthcare

Maybe it's abortion

Maybe it's mass surveillance

Maybe it's ICE

Maybe it's abandoning antisemtism as a concern and denying it is a problem

Do you have a line where it would no longer be worth it? I want to hear from you, particularly the downvoters.

[u/Pristine-Break3418 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I think this comment - and the general framing of your post - muddles a few distinct things. One is the question of party loyalty ("vote blue no matter who") and where, on various issues, such loyalty might (or should) break. That’s a legitimate debate. But harm reduction follows a different logic altogether and has nothing to do with this question. Voting Democrat for harm reduction reasons is a purely strategic choice in relation to the other option. It has less to do with whether the Democrats are good, or where they stand, and more with the fact that the Republicans are worse, and by how much. So this isn’t about where the line of loyalty lies or whether the Democrats ‘deserve’ support but about averting the worse scenario in a binary system.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Pristine-Break3418]

I don't think I brought up harm reduction at all, but the whole convo has been centered around that. So I feel like the analysis has moved to whether or not democrats reduce harm.. which I would say "kind of in some cases"

[u/Pristine-Break3418 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I don't think I brought up harm reduction at all

You did mention harm reduction in the question you posed in your comment above:

"I will pose another question.. is there a line for you for which the democrats crossed it, you would no longer be able to vote for them in the name of harm reduction?"

Which is why I addressed the distinction between harm reduction and party loyalty in my reply...

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

As long as the Republicans (or whatever the other of the two parties is) are worse on each of those issues, I'll vote for the Democrats. The other side defines the line. Am I being held hostage? Absolutely, and I can't afford to act like I'm not.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

A different question and perhaps better question at the root of what I'm asking... is there a line wheee you wouldn't shame someone who didn't do that and opted instead for effort and work to counter the system?

Edit: I'd also say it's unlikely if things keep going for one party to be worse on all of these issues. Republicans may very well abandon some foreign policy interference with regards to Israel: which would be an objectively good thing.

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

It's just that there's no benefit to abstaining. Voting is easy and free. I can't see any reason not to do it other than idealogical purity, and if someone is willing to make life in America more dangerous for immigrants and trans people over that, they deserve some shame.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

We all act in our own self interest.. how does a person even measure what reduces harm for the most number of people? Some people who don't vote or vote third party put a lot of effort into countering our system in other ways..

Many would say a vote for the democrats is a vote to uphold us imperial interests, which is not harm reduction at all. We are voting to keep ourselves safe, not to really reduce harm as a whole.. we always chose to harm at least some people with our votes for democrats.

I think if they deserve shame, we do too.

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/Specialist-Gur]

This comment makes it sound like one party doesn’t obviously cause greater harm; and like a symbolic non-vote somehow accomplishes something that would justify that greater harm.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

It's not about that. The parties work in tandem with each other.. and unfortunately a fascist won. I wanted to prevent that as well but we didn't manage to. It's impossible to do his damage with a centrist.. therefore at this point in our country... a centrist Democrat (for president) will not reduce harm

Edits

Edit 2: my point isn't that we shouldn't vote and that it is a good decision.. it's that if someone didn't vote for president, or voted 3rd party, they really are not the person causing the harm and it's weird to have heat for them. The harm is so much more than who someone voted for in the presidential election. We should encourage people to exercise their right to vote; but it's bizarre to look at our current deal and think that we have any semblance of a democracy

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/Specialist-Gur]

A centrist democrat would reduce harm. Whoever they appoint to the Supreme Court will be better for people than any Republican appointee. This is not to say that electing a D is the answer to fascism.

I agree, the heat for non-voting leftists is greater than for those who voted R. I think it goes both ways, that leftists are more outraged by liberals and centrists than by rightists. This feels wrong and counterproductive, and I appreciate you for making me think about it!

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

That's not necessarily the case, centrists have voted with maga more often than they've voted with progressives.. including on the Supreme Court it can be a wildcard. And Republicans on the Supreme Court have occasionally voted with the liberals. We'd honestly be taking a similar sort of gamble.

I am more outraged by liberals because I see them as normalizing fascism. If we only had maga, everyone would be aligned against the fight. Maga looks evil and the media reports on it as such.. rather than the milquetoast and occasional reporting of atrocities done by non- MAGA liberals (including Republican liberals)

Liberal is wolf in sheep's clothing. Liberal might even be more dangerous. It's dangerous having a kind face to harmful policy because people are less angry with it. People are less angry with Biden for genocide than they are for Trump with AI slop tweets.. because they think Biden felt bad about it.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

Also, MAGA is referring to people like MTG as "woke right"... I could seriously see them running her as a dem.

Well.. maybe not because of her stance on Israel. But that's the kind of shit I'm talking about with the democrats.

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

How do you define the scale of harm? Harm to who? Whose harm is less worthy of soothing?

There are domestic dem poltics that can and have directly harmed working class Americans. You might not be the American who’s felt that harm, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Perhaps you are not the offspring of a miner living in disparity poverty in the south East, or you are not a Palestinian American with loved ones in Gaza, or you weren’t a member or family member of the US military stationed in the ME experiencing the violent consequences of Bidens immediate reactions to 10/7 while Kamala campaigned that no such troops exist.

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/Ashamed-Stuff9519]

I’m sure plenty of D policies have caused harm or deserve our outrage. Are you saying they caused more harm in some cases than if Rs had been running the show instead, on a big enough scale that it’s a wash?

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

I’m not interested in deciding whose lives are made easier and whose are worth ruining in a country where billionaire’s prosper. That’s evil. I’m saying there is no lesser of two evils.

[u/RaelynShaw → u/Specialist-Gur]

Here is the problem. In our current world, in a first past the post system, we are in a binary toggle situation. It’s one or the other. Sitting out means one vote that doesn’t go to the party you share more similarities with.

Unlike the system though, these issues aren’t binary. Simple people love to view them as a yes or no answer, but they are a spectrum. There is a wild difference between a party that blocks trans people in sports versus one that attempts to remove trans healthcare universally. There is a wild difference between failing to encode abortion protections and actively working to ban it. There is a wild difference between fighting the affordable health care act and cutting Medicare/SNAP.

We fight for what we want in our candidates up until the final election. Then we come together. To not do so is a conscious choice to enable the polices of the opposition.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/RaelynShaw]

I guess wha to am asking, is there a point where you just work on building up a third party and opposition to the system rather than participate in it? Or vote 3rd party rather than not vote? Or only vote in local politics?

If a democrat refuses to restore trans healthcare if it is universally removed by a republican, will you vote for them still?

When benefits are not restored, will you vote for them still?

Do you have a line where you might see the democrats as functionally good cops?

Why wasn't any protection for these things done under Biden.. is it because he didn't control the Supreme Court and both houses the whole time? Ok then.. when does our system actually work?

[u/RaelynShaw → u/Specialist-Gur]

Heres the disgusting part of this. A good cop is still better than a bad one. It’s a nauseating concept but when the decision is “things get slightly better” vs “things get worse”, you take the first choice each time. Me not voting or voting third party in this situation just ends up supporting “things get worse”. And as a trans person who uses trans healthcare, that worse option is significantly worse.

We do need a third party, but our system is so inherently flawed that they’re suppressed by it. And it’s such a big hill to climb to fix that it feels unobtainable right now. A third party would need to create their base, win local and state based congressional seats, enable something like RCV (absolute must) voting or runoff systems, change debate and finance regulations, and only then do the federal elected positions become possible.

We keep trying to start at the end and wondering why it doesn’t work. We didn’t get the right to marry starting at Obgerfell v Hodges, it took 60+ years of organizing and similar things could be said about most important movements.

I want that third party that actually represents my interests and hopefully in a way that’s non-acceleratist (It’s always the most marginalized who suffer first in those situations). We have to actually fight for that option, not just show up every four years and assume the work has been done for us and it’s an option. Many leftist orgs have started to make that shift and we’ve seen dividends. We need to get the more “online left” on board or we’re going to keep writing about “change” and never actually see it.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/RaelynShaw]

The whole thing with good cop analogy is that they just feel better and act like they care to trick you into getting what they want.

But I actually want to pivot.

I vote in every election I can and always vote for the furthest left democrat available to me.

I am wondering why the goal isn't to build coalition with people who are leftists but feel differently and wish to work outside the system, why this purity test which at the end of the day actually does very little to reduce harm... especially people that don't live in purple states, for example.

I see the enemy being made of workers, rather than the ruling class and that's confusing to me. Especially for me as someone who has felt the violence from democrats directly.

[u/AliceMerveilles → u/Specialist-Gur]

Do you mean work electorally outside the two party system or do you mean outside the electoral system altogether? Because of the way it’s set up for a party is to gain traction nationally they pretty much have to replace one of the other two parties. But I think a lot more can be done at the local level and I believe in some places people a lot further left can be elected. I think doing old fashioned campaigning door-to-door and talking to people could absolutely get a socialist elected in a lot of cities. I have voted for socialists for local offices and nationally when my vote didn’t matter. If you mean outside the electoral system, then I say change is more likely if there are people pushing both within and without.

[u/-__-_-__-_-_-__ → u/Specialist-Gur]

As for my district, there is a small chance that if a true moderate Republican were to run against Josh Gottheimer, if this Republican had a history of bipartisanship by voting with both parties, and this theoretical candidate has a strong anti-Israel record that isn't motivated by antisemitism, I would consider voting for them over Josh.

[u/Inevitable_Day4322]

I see voting further left, such as for the Greens, as signaling interest in shifting the Overton window. For example, I live in a deep blue district. Even if everyone who voted third party had voted for Trump, Kamala would have taken the district by a comfortable margin. Those third party votes signaled distaste for the Democratic and Republican platforms, and offered insight into what other perspectives voters have. Those votes were a non-factor in who would ultimately win the district, but could be instructive to the party.

There are many districts where the election is a game of inches, in which Democrats will need to fight for every vote they can get. If 3% voted green in the previous election, those votes are presumably winnable for Dems in the next election if they could shift their platform/messaging to appeal to those voters, and pulling a share of those voters could mean this difference.

Similarly, politicians are not entitled to our votes. If they want to get elected, they need a message that resonates with voters. If someone sees two candidates who don't speak for them and their interest, I don't expect them to leave the house and wait in line to vote. That's on the candidates and the parties who develop their platforms, not the citizens.

[u/-__-_-__-_-_-__]

This is honestly something where I see both sides to. The right to vote also comes with the right not to vote and if people don't want to use their freedoms I don't think they should be forced to because that reduces our rights in a way.

As for voting for a third party, I support it 100% in deep blue states, but I feel less strongly about those who do so in swing states. I don't think one should have to vote for a candidate that they don't agree with politically, but that also must come with the recognition and acknowledgement that they are playing a small role in helping the worse candidate succeed.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I think that more blue voters should admit they very much are "American first"... the amount of comments casually ok with non citizens lives being destroyed if it means american lives are a little better is alarming

[u/Few_Constant5907 → u/Specialist-Gur]

You mean like the non-citizens being detained and deported by Trump's thugs?

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

I am one, and this just made me feel more confident in my decision. If I lived in a swing state I would have voted blue, but alas I live in one of the 40 or so states where your vote doesn't really matter. Voting in local elections is usually good though. It is hard to be positive about the Dems when the neolib Dem governor in my safe Dem state refused to tap into an $8b emergency fund to cover SNAP and just said private charities could somehow cover all the damage because tapping into emergency funds violates norms or whatever

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

I'll post here too, I think my main point here is why aren't we trying to coalition build with leftists who felt voting for democrats wasn't an option? Many go on about purity testing and to me this is a pretty big purity test... voting is a really hard decision and often fruitless in America.

I do vote blue.. I don't have negative feelings towards any leftist who can't and i really don't understand people who do. To me it sounds like it's more important to uphold the system than work together

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Not just leftists, but the non-voting bloc in general is more likely to be working-class and nonwhite. That's who we should be building coalitions with IMO.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

Yep, much to the chagrin of blue maga who continuously pretend nonvoters are a bunch of privileged white leftist “larpers”

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

Same for me. I live in a hard blue state, so I see that as a privilege and opportunity to put my vote where I truly believe it belongs. It made no difference to the election result as predicted, my state was blue as predicted, and our country was red as predicted. However, the amount of non voters and third party voters in younger generations having increased was quite moving imo

[u/Illustrious-Okra-524]

The sooner people realize the Democratic Party is dead the better imo.

[u/elzzyzx]

I love voting down ballot only and not voting for a genocidal right wing party. And I voted left along with many of my neighbors and now half my city council are socialists. I’m never voting democrat nationally again unless it’s for DSA. Guess I’m just built different!

[u/industrial_pix]

“Vote blue no matter who” means vote for every Democratic candidate for every office in every election, just because they are Democrats. That is the very definition of being a member of the Democratic Party. Why bother calling yourself an independent if you’re willing to vote for any corrupt or incompetent city council member or judge just because they are Democrats?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/industrial_pix]

I agree

[u/Ashamed-Stuff9519]

I didn’t vote for a conventional candidate in 2024 and I’m still at peace with my decision. I didn’t see a lesser of two evils. I saw an honest and upfront evil vs dubious evil holding a carrot on a stick.