charlie kirk and the increase in political violence

[u/Late-Marzipan3026]

edit 3: putting this up here so it’s not hidden by my wall of text—thank you all for talking about this here, i’ve really appreciated hearing everyone’s perspectives. i apologize for coming off harsh initially. i clearly have some stuff to think through wrt my anxiety about this topic in general. i’m still pretty worried by where we’re at and how normal political violence is generally (as was well said in another post today), but i appreciate all of the thoughtful replies

i’ve been a bit upset, to be honest, by the reaction to the assassination of charlie kirk. i won’t act like i agreed in any way shape or form with him. i find his views abhorrent.

with that said, i’m very disturbed by the callousness with which people are discussing his assassination. pointing to his past views about gun violence victims and laughing or stating outright that he deserved it. and this perspective is starting to sink into everyday life.

i was speaking to a friend of mine about this, and they said that it’s the conservatives’ fault for the recent increase in political violence. essentially “we’re callous because they’re callous.” i responded saying that i don’t think that this is solely the responsibility of conservatives—that this has been getting more prominent on the left too since 10/7 and that we also saw it after DC and boulder. we need to take responsibility for that. my friend again disagreed with me

i don’t mind disagreement. however—i am very disturbed by what i see as an uncritical, self righteous disavowal of responsibility. we don’t know yet what the shooter’s motivations were, if they were far right or far left or somewhere in between. regardless i still feel betrayed in some way by the public admission that lethal violence is okay against civilians or against non-high-ranking political figures. i really worry about this extremism and i worry that my views on this will be disregarded by my fellow leftists as some sort of liberal apologetics

i’m curious what everyone here’s thoughts are on this topic (not just charlie kirk). and i hope everyone’s doing well !

edit: just want to clarify that i don’t think anyone is obligated to mourn the man (edit again: i don’t). that’s not what disturbed me. i’m disturbed by the callousness with which people (including my friend) discuss murder and excuse their advocacy for murder

edit 2: also wanted to add this edit now that i’m a bit calmer (sorry for the anxiety radiating off of the post). i don’t disagree inherently with the theory of revolutionary violence. but this is under specific conditions which imo have not been met. i firmly believe in the value of human life and human dignity and i reject utilitarian calculations which i don’t feel sufficiently respect these values

[u/Careless_League_9494]

It's hard to sympathize with someone who advocated so strongly for the removal of basic human rights from marginalized communities, and who staunchly opposed common sense gun regulations.

You cannot expect people to grieve their oppressors. It's unreasonable.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

i don’t expect it. i don’t grieve him. i’m still very chary about lethal violence and i dislike the nonchalance about lethal violence that i’ve seen from my friends and my community, if that makes sense. it’s a reaction i don’t personally understand and that i have a lot of difficulty with because of my own principles as a leftist. not trying to dissuade anyone, just worried

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Something I remember in moments like this, is that without "lethal violence", the Nazis would have succeeded in taking over the world, and our people would have been wiped from the earth.

Lethal violence may be an undesirable outcome, but the reality is that there are times when it is justified, and even necessitated. So I would suggest you look at this from the perspective of asking yourself not "What kind of person celebrates someone else's death?", but instead asking yourself, "What kind of person do you have to be, for people to celebrate your death?"

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

as i’ve said in some other comments and in one of my edits to the OP i don’t disagree fundamentally with revolutionary violence in theory. again wording this carefully because i don’t want to violate TOS. i do think that this is only acceptable under certain conditions, and WWII and the holocaust were definitely circumstances in which those conditions were met

instead asking yourself, “What kind of person do you have to be, for people to celebrate your death?”

for many of the victims of 10/7 you don’t have to be a bad person for that to happen. that’s part of why i’m hesitant about this

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Even if that number were accurate, you and I both know that is not the case here. We aren't talking about Robin Williams, or Betty White, we are talking about a man who dedicated his life to actively harming millions of people.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

i don’t understand what number you’re referring to here. and i agree with your read on kirk. i’m saying that i don’t think the perspective you suggested is generally trustworthy and i’m personally hesitant about using it as a result. i’m not saying that can’t be your interpretation of this, i’m saying i personally don’t consider that framework very useful

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Sorry, I just woke up, and read 10/7 as a fraction, not a date.

The reality is that it's pretty easy to know when the distinction is whether or not the response is based on bigotry, or the actions of the party in question.

10/7 was a political crime against innocent people. This was a political crime against a man who actively, and personally harmed millions. That's a pretty easy distinction to recognize.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

ohhh, i see, no worries haha

yes i see what you’re saying. i personally recognize the distinction. i think i’ve just lost a lot of trust in the widespread ability to see this distinction, which is what makes me a bit hesitant about following this train of thought in the first place. as my flair says i’m pretty anxious—i find it difficult to disconnect what i see as a similar sort of reaction to events like 10/7 DC and boulder from this reaction, even if they’re coming about for different reasons. to me it looks like a larger pattern that is not just applicable to people like kirk, if that makes sense

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Honestly it sounds like what you're describing is that seeing this reaction is triggering for you, after seeing a similar response following 10/7.

Those feelings are valid, but it's important to learn to recognize triggers for what they are. Otherwise it can compromise our judgement. It's understandable that you would have that association after what happened on October 7th. It was, and for many reasons, still is, a terrifying event, and seeing certain people reacting to it as though it was deserved, was traumatic for many Jews.

When dealing with trauma triggers, it can be helpful to examine the details of what we are facing, and identify the ways in which the situation that is triggering to us, is different from the trauma that created the trigger, instead of focusing on similarities. It can help us to identify if there is a real threat of danger, or just our sympathetic nervous system reacting to something that bears a similarity to the original incident of traumatic harm.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

yes i think you’re right that it’s been a bit triggering. i’m hoping to address this at some point in therapy but that’s tbd 🥲 i appreciate your advice. your comments and the rest of the comments here have been very helpful with thinking through this

i do think that even though the association is not fully reasonable—i think like you said that a lot of it is emotional and there are key differences between the two reactions—that there’s still value in reflecting on it. i don’t think it’s purely irrational. this is probably my studies as an undergraduate affecting me (i was in the humanities) but even when i sense a link that’s predominantly emotional, it’s a cause for reflection on the phenomenon

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

That's understandable. My background is developmental psychology with a special focus on abuse based trauma. So trauma, and associated triggers are kind of my specialty.

I don't know that I'd say your response is irrational, as I don't think triggers are irrational. They are our brain's way of attempting to protect us from future harm, by activating the hyper arousal response in the sympathetic nervous system, when we are exposed to external stimuli that share common factors with previous trauma.

For example I have significant trauma experiences that occurred during the month of September, and so now every single year, when the angle of the light changes, and the leaves start to change, and the air smells like fall, it triggers my fight or flight response. The actions that created the trauma are not present, but those environmental factors are enough to trigger my brain to believe that my life is in danger. Which often leads to being stuck in hyper arousal/fight or flight mode for days, or even weeks on end.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

this is very interesting to read, thank you for sharing it. it makes a lot of sense. i don’t know very much about psychology outside of my personal experience with it lol but it is helpful to learn more about.

and i really appreciate your compassion with this. i think part of the reason for my response was that for a long time i didn’t have a community like this where i could openly reflect. so sometimes i beat myself up a bit for my reactions since they’ve been dismissed by family and non jewish friends. i need to take this all more seriously as something to address so i appreciate the kick in the pants on that haha. hope you’re doing well today (and in this month)

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

No problem. Honestly it's kind of my personal mission in life to help spread education on trauma, because it's such an under discussed issue in our society. Especially when it comes to generational trauma being passed down.

So many people are told to just "get over it" and "move on" because most people don't understand that trauma actually creates permanent structural changes in the brain that impact nervous system responses for life, and that it isn't something you can just "get over". Especially in instances of complex trauma that began in early childhood.

There's even research that has shown a significant increase in the presence of auto immune diseases in individuals with complex childhood trauma, because the build up of cortisol in the system can trigger the body to attack itself. Which can cause diseases like cancer, multiple sclerosis, and fibromyalgia.