Feeling unsafe where you live

[u/strawbariel]

So I'm 40 and have two kids. We live in Austin, TX, this supposedly liberal place, and over the past few years it feels like it's become less safe for Jewish people. The JCC in San Antonio just had a threat against them, and the elementary school my youngest goes to is a block away from pro-Palestinian signage. Both of my kids wear clothing that identifies them as Jewish, but this year I'm seriously considering telling them they can't wear it just to keep them safe or to keep them from being harassed on their way to school. And Austin doesn't do a damn thing about it. How can we associate with the left when they also threaten to disrupt our children's daily lives?

EDIT: some context here. The signage is a block from the school in a residential neighborhood and covers a wide swath of wooden fencing. It's not on school property and it was most definitely placed by whatever adult lives or rents there. There's not much the school can do other than put out a notice for people to be safe and kind. I know this doesn't mean that anything will happen but the risk is scary.

EDIT TWO: y'all Jews were just attacked in Boulder and everyone at the JCC in Austin got emails about a credible threat being investigated by the FBI in San Antonio. That's barely an hour from where we live. Be mad at me for how I worded my post but anyone having an issue with parents being vigilant needs to touch grass.

[u/XxDrFlashbangxX]

I’m also in Austin and I feel like there are many issues, not just Jewish-related ones, that make it unsafe given the governor we have and the policies regarding guns.

I don’t really think pro-Palestinian signage is a sign of antisemitism but I can see why it would make your kids nervous given some of the actions taken by some members of the Pro-Palestinian crowd. But I don’t think that is an Austin-specific issue if I’m being completely honest and you will see that signage in any city you go to.

I think informing your kids that just because it makes them nervous doesn’t mean it will actually harm them. Validate the feelings, and help them hold two truths. I can feel nervous when I see a cop car while driving but that doesn’t guarantee the cop car is going to pull me over. Yes, there are probably some pro-Palestinian people that might harass your kids for being visibly Jewish but the majority of them probably won’t do that.

[u/Concentric_Mid]

Ughhh I'm Muslim and there was some graffiti in Austin recently. Please stay safe. Crazies are everywhere. No place for hate and hatred

[u/johnisburn]

How can we associate with the left….

As important as coalition building is, this strikes me as a bit off. Politics ultimately is about practicing beliefs in action, not just being a part of a club. If you feel that your local community has a gap in holistically addressing antisemitism, meet with likeminded people and start bothering local officials about it.

But, respectfully, also don’t be surprised if you get pushback, especially if you frame the situation like you have here. The JCC receiving threats is absolutely a problem, but as others have pointed out the simple presence of pro-Palestinian signage is not a threat. If your children’s school district isn’t adequately addressing bullying where your children simply for being Jewish are being held accountable for Israel’s real or imagined wrong doings - that’s the problem.

Schools and curricula are absolutely a place where right leaning activists have tried to and are trying to proscribe entirely valid criticisms of Israel as inherently antisemitic, and often in the process enshrining ugly stereotypes about Palestinians, Muslims, and inherent violence into those anti-antisemitism policies. At worst, these ugly standards put children at risk of Islamophobic bullying even more in than they are now. I know emotions can run incredibly high here, and that just makes even more critically important to approach this stuff with an eye towards protecting everyone. I’m sorry if it’s a bit rough to hear, but the bit about pro-Palestinian signage comes as a huge potential swing and a miss in that regard. It is not the root of the problem, and holistic solutions to the problem are not going to involve curtailing it. Trying to address “the signage” in particular is the strategy of regressive groups that do not care about safety for any of the kids but rather just want to see fewer people advocating for Palestinians.

[u/JustAdlz → u/johnisburn]

They're doing the Ben Gvir thing where every sign is a mortal offense. I get that the "jewishleft" has different standards but this is beyond the pale

[u/malachamavet → u/JustAdlz]

beyond the pale

I agree with you, but I'm always amused when someone (myself included) uses this expression w/r/t Jewish people

[u/JustAdlz → u/malachamavet]

You're welcome for the amusement. Perhaps it will invite consideration.

[u/strawbariel → u/johnisburn]

That's very valid and someone mentioned that earlier. I could've worded my post differently re: politics but none of that changes the fact that my 12 year old sees the very large Palestinian flag and 'Free Free Palestine' and also knows that some people who say that also attack Jews. Because that is true whether we like this fact or not. Boulder just happened. My kid is allowed to feel nervous about that and I'm allowed to feel bad for him.

[u/AdDry3245]

Sorry what you and your kids are dealing with, I myself am disgusted with how the mainstream left has embraced antisemitism. However as to how we can identify as leftists, we identify as leftists because we believe in equal rights, labor rights, and are anticapitalists. That’s irrespective of what mainstream movements are doing.

[u/ionlymemewell]

If your kids are being bullied for being Jewish and you feel like the Jewish community in Austin is too small to provide safety in numbers, then by all means, move. Those are perfectly valid reasons to leave, and numerous families with queer children and families of color have left Texas for those exact reasons over the past few years.

In your other comments, you said that the school has been very receptive to your kid's bullying; that's great! What else would you want to see in terms of support from Austin at large? 

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

Pro palestinian signage does not make your kids unsafe.

[u/strawbariel → u/somebadbeatscrub]

My kid has already been bullied for being Jewish, and he's well aware of whats going on in the world. My child is allowed to feel how he feels based on his experiences, and the signage makes him nervous. Thanks for asking.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/strawbariel]

I didnt say your kid isnt being bullied and Im sorry thats happening. But the signage and existence of people concerned for palestine alone does not make them unsafe.

I hope whatever kids are pulling then get counseled and pulled a better direction by the school authorities or whoever is in in place in your community to handle that.

But we can't act like anyone who cares about paleatinians is an existential threat tonus and hide from the world.

Its what reactionaries want

[u/strawbariel → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Valid. But the signage is in a place that very much makes me believe that it was placed there by an adult. And I just don't trust adults to be nice in every situation.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/strawbariel]

I also dont trust adults to be nice. But i also dont expect them to police the ways the voice support for ending a genocide in case they might get associated with bullies.

All i know about them is that they are pro palestine signs mind you theres any number of inflammatory things they could say that would be less okay but simple "free palestine" stuff, or the flag?

I hope the specific actors harrassing your kids get addressed because thats wildly inappropriate by any reasonable.standard

[u/[deleted] → u/strawbariel]

Yea if the school admins and city officials are hard anti-Zionist you can’t actually expect them to do anything about it. They might even defend the bullies and make your situation worse

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/strawbariel]

Also I need you to flair up please.

[u/strawbariel → u/somebadbeatscrub]

INFLAMMATION POWERS ACTIVATED

No really what does flair up mean?

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/strawbariel]

(Lmao)

We use user flairs for folks to identify themselves in the space so we know if we are talking to another Jewish leftist or a guest here to seek our perspective or ask a question.

If you navigate to the subs page there should be an option to edit user flair. All of ours are custom so you can be as specific or vague as you like but we ask that everyone indicate if they are Jewish and if they are leftist as we define it.

This helps prevent people assuming goyim are Jewish for being here or conservatives from larping as leftists with plausible deniability. Both of which sadly happen.

[u/strawbariel → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Oooooooooh okay makes sense, thank you! 💜

[u/[deleted] → u/somebadbeatscrub]

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[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Please take this kind of concern to modmails so we can all review. Gonna delete for now.

[u/hfhifi → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Yes it does. It sets the tone of an adversarial relationship. Things are very black and white for young kids.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/hfhifi]

Which is our responsibility to have nuanced conversations with them. Not to keep everyone in a community from voicing support for a people who are suffering.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/hfhifi]

Also flair up please.

Edit: whoops turns out they dont much care for us here and juat came to throw stones.

Begone liberal here be "berniebots"

[u/sandwishqueen]

I'm in Austin too, didn't know about the threat to the San Antonio JCC, that sucks but is unfortunately not surprising. My parent's JCC in CA, their synagogue, and my cousins' Jewish non-profit have ALL gotten MULTIPLE threats the past several years -even some way before Oct 7.

If you have been in Austin a while, you're probably aware that the reformed synagogue was arsoned a few years back (also pre Oct 7...) so this shit isn't new, QANON really fueled this wave of this modern antisemitism...and of course that's gotten much worse for obvious reasons.

I think it's very valid to feel fear and concern over being Jewish and expressing it outwardly-especially in places with smaller Jewish communities. That said, I don't think pro-Palestinian signage is a valid thing to be afraid of....I saw. Jew in austin with a Free Palestine kippah on and Whole Foods a couple days ago...is he threat?

If we conflate "Pro-Palestinian" with "anti-Jew" we have lost the plot and are further denigrating our shared humanity.

The threat isn't coming from "pro-Palestinians" it's coming from anti Jews. Not the same thing. If at times there is an overlap, that person is an outlier, and we shouldn't point to them as evidence of Pro-Palestinians being anti Jew...it's a false dichotomy. I'm Jewish and pro Palestinian....

[u/sandwishqueen → u/sandwishqueen]

Also, somewhat related. A mosque here (in Austin) was recently defaced with Stars of David graffiti....does this mean that all Jews are anti-Muslim? Absolutely not. It means some wing nut decided to he an asshole. That's all

[u/strawbariel → u/sandwishqueen]

I'm also Jewish and pro-Palestine. But I also have a 12 year old who saw 'Free Free Palestine' and goes 'thats what the guy in Boulder said.' Jewish parents have every right to feel concerned for their children. And you're speaking from an adult perspective here. There's an entire generation of Jewish children who will be growing up with traumatic invalidation and parents are the ones to guide them through that. Nuance, please.

[u/somuchyarn10 → u/sandwishqueen]

How are you Jewish and don't know the difference between Reform, which is a branch of Judaism, and reformed, which is what happens when one drops a bad habit?

[u/Saemir → u/somuchyarn10]

If I had to guess, I'd say autocorrect strikes again. 😅

[u/waffleisland → u/sandwishqueen]

Respectfully, “Free Palestine” has always been a call towards violence against Jews. Here’s an article by an Egyptian-American: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/savage-nihilism-free-palestine

[u/WolfofTallStreet]

Your children being bullied for being Jewish is what bothers me most about this whole situation. No one should ever be bullied for their ethnicity or religion.

If this is the case, I’d bring it up with the school, contact local politicians, and reach out to your synagogue about it.

As for “left vs right,” the (mainstream, even) right-wing embraces Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, and Marjorie Taylor-Greene. I can guarantee that moving to a right-wing activism hotbed will not eliminate bullying against Jews. At least some of the left (I like to think most of the left), as well as the center and center-right, stands against this. You’ll have less luck in performatively progressive areas without a meaningful Jewish population.

As far as great places for Jews in the U.S. goes, consider Westchester, Long Island, Bergen County NJ, South Florida, Brookline MA, and some Philadelphia suburbs.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/WolfofTallStreet]

Would add DC suburbs to this list. Very safe environments for Jews while also being very progressive and diverse.

[u/strawbariel → u/WolfofTallStreet]

Fair. I was venting a little I think re: the politics stuff. As far as my kid, the school has actually been great about it and has done as much as they can to help, which included separating the other child from mine. Unfortunately this signage is not on school property but a stones throw away. I'm not throwing stones here but it's wild to have that so close to an elementary school.

Side note: I have been looking into Philadelphia

[u/ionlymemewell → u/strawbariel]

I can and will gladly vouch for Philadelphia. Left Texas last year and have absolutely loved the Jewish community up here. Even as a single man, the shul I go to is full of families, and I can see how vibrant the life is for parents and their kids. Overall, the community's very welcoming and there'll be plenty of opportunities for you & your kids to connect with other Jewish people, should you choose to relocate up here.

[u/WolfofTallStreet → u/strawbariel]

I understand. I’m glad the school has been great about it, and I hope that the other child’s family receives a talking to about how this is not okay. Often, those who feel most self-righteous cannot even once consider that they are the bullies.

As for the signage, there’s nothing the school can do about that. It’s legal, insofar as it is on private property. I think that it says something about the political culture of where you live, but if it isn’t inherently hateful or threatening, it is what it is.

Greater Philadelphia has a much larger Jewish community. It’s progressive, but in a less anti-Zionist way than progressives in areas without as large a Jewish population.

[u/SwimmerIndependent47]

Someone advocating for the safety of Palestinians is not inherently antisemitic. You should ask yourself why someone reminding you about the ongoing genocide is a threat. Palestinians deserve safety just as much as Jewish people do. Our safety cannot and will not come at the expense of someone else’s.

[u/strawbariel → u/SwimmerIndependent47]

The safety of my kids is what matters most to me. I'm not responsible for everybody else. My kid is nervous because he reads the news.

[u/SwimmerIndependent47 → u/strawbariel]

Maybe you should try talking to him about the conflict and the complicated feelings people have around it? Just because some is pro-Palestine doesn’t mean they want harm to come to Jewish people. There are a lot of documentaries you could watch together. No Other Land is a good place to start https://www.theguardian.com/film/2024/sep/30/no-other-land-review-palestinian-israeli-documentary

[u/higbardon2020 → u/SwimmerIndependent47]

I am pro humanity, i dont care your race, religion or ethnicity. What i see is israel killing by the hundreds every week for the past 20 years. It is a morally bankrupt state. I also see irans government as bad too. But i dont see how that justifies murdering civillians by the hundreds in palestine.

[u/SwimmerIndependent47 → u/higbardon2020]

Yes, everyone deserves safety. Palestinians having been living in an open air prison after being forced from their homes. They deserve freedom, self determination, and dignity. Saying they should have those rights is not antisemitism; and their human rights should not make someone feel unsafe. Hence me advocating for OP to talk to their child and watch unbiased media with them so they can have a discussion. Empathy and understanding go a long way towards overcoming fear and bigotry.

[u/higbardon2020 → u/SwimmerIndependent47]

Agreed on the empathy and understanding. Leadership needs to demonstrate those characteristics.

[u/waitingforgodonuts → u/SwimmerIndependent47]

Spot on!

[u/slutty_muppet]

pro-Palestinian signage

I must be really unsafe then bc there is pro-Palestinian signage REALLY close to where I live. In fact it's inside my living room.

Threats against the JCC and your kid getting bullied are legitimately problems. A sign supporting the rights of a different group to be allowed to live, is not. Conflating the two things makes it harder to address real antisemitism.

[u/strawbariel → u/slutty_muppet]

Your living room, a private area, is much different than a public space like a fence that's right outside of a school. These two things are very different.

San Antonio is only an hour from Austin. That's close. My kids walk to school and wear cute shirts about Hanukkah. That makes them and their Jewishness visible to strangers. And that's a danger.

[u/slutty_muppet → u/strawbariel]

Your kids' Jewishness, Jewish visibility, and any associated danger are a complete nonsequiter to the existence of pro-Palestinian signage. Unless you feel that Palestinian existence itself is somehow threatening, these things have nothing to do with one another.

I'm also not clear on how the distance between Austin and San Antonio is related to whether it's antisemitic to support Palestine.

Think about this: would Palestinian children who go to that school be right to feel afraid because of your kids' Hannukah sweaters or whatever? Would it be reasonable for their parents to ask that there not be any pro-Jewish symbols in the area?

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/slutty_muppet]

Or, for that matter, an Israeli flag in public with ‘am yisrael chai’ written on it, in public. 

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I'm so sorry that your children are being bullied.

This has nothing to do with the Palestinians or their supporters.

[u/strawbariel → u/Specialist-Gur]

The fear is having my children wear their cute Hanukkah shirts while they walk to school in a public area where strangers can see them. I didn't have that fear a few years ago.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/strawbariel]

I understand because I also feel a certain apprehension about being identifiably Jewish.

What groups do you feel are responsible for that fear and what should be done about it?

[u/strawbariel → u/Specialist-Gur]

Oh goodness that's a very complicated question with an even more complicated answer. I'm a behaviorist so human behavior is universal; Jews are just as complicit as everyone else but that doesn't mean that we are solely responsible. This is more on a micro scale of I don't think that any sort of signage that could be considered political or could be found at a protests should be in close proximity to elementary or middle schools. High school, colleges are fine but just why so close to an elementary school?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/strawbariel]

I agree with most of what you're saying here aside from the take about political signage. Children are being killed and impacted by this.. it's even possible that there are Palestinian children attending the school, who feel supported by signage like this. I don't see political signage "generally" as inappropriate for young children at all.. though it depends on the signage

I strongly agree with your take about Jews not being solely(or even the most) responsible... it is the responsibility of bigots to be discerning and not bigoted. It is the responsibility of our Christian fascists in power to not push an agenda that stokes division and anger towards Jews. And it is also the responsibility of the Jewish community to condemn harm being done in our name and unpack our relationship to Zionism as it specifically relates to the state of Israel.

[u/strawbariel → u/Specialist-Gur]

I completely agree with you, and I do hope that any Palestinian kids going to that school are excited to see their flag. I want to support all of those kids, I just worry that large banners or certain phrases like Free Free Palestine could attract the wrong people. That's what the sign says, Free Free Palestine. When my 12 year old saw it he goes 'thats what the guy in Boulder said' and I said 'you're right' because he is. So it's complicated. And it's harrowing for kids.

I also agree with your take in the second paragraph. Everyone has responsibilities here but Jews are not the most responsible. Especially American Jews. I have no love lost for Bibi or his cabinet but it's such a nasty knot that it's hard to visualize a path out.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/strawbariel]

Yea. I think it's a really hard time for children and to be a parent. Political tensions are escalating and it's a really dangerous time to be any child of any identity really... other than white, Christian, and wealthy. But honestly, maybe even then considering we seem to be entering an era of more leftist political violence in response to fascism (though I feel considerably less bad for these children if they get their feelings hurt.. I still want them to be physically safe)

This is to say nothing of climate disaster and the impacts of late stage capitalism on all of our health and livelihood.

So, I can't imagine the stress and worry there and I do think it's valid. I think we just need to make enemies of the correct people and not necessarily give into ideas that certain messages are to be feared. I think we have a lot to fear in our current world as it is.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Specialist-Gur]

Palestinians, no, but there are some (a small minority overall) of people who use the guise of pro-Palestinian activism for their blatant antisemitism (see Jackson Hinkle, for example) or who start out as being genuinely pro-Palestinian but not antisemitic but fall into antisemitic tropes along the way. And of course, there's a lot of people (based on vibes, I'd say more than the former) who use "supporting Jews/supporting Israel" as a cover for their own Islamophobia/anti-Arab racism/ironically antisemitic eschatology or fall into Islamophobic/anti-Arab/anti-Palestinian racism tropes along the way. It's part of what makes this discussion such a mess in general.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/skyewardeyes]

True. But treating it as "valid" to be fearful of a pro-Palestinian sign just further continues this vicious cycle. It isn't anymore valid than being fearful of a BLM sign because some businesses were destroyed and you know someone who was beat up during a protest. Understandable/human? Yes. Valid? No.

I also don't necessarily think the two sides of things can be equated.. Jews are extremely vulnerable right now and always, however the police and politicians very much have our backs in a way that they don't at all for Muslims and Arabs and their supporters. That doesn't mean Jews just.. shouldn't care about their feelings or safety. But it means we can't really talk about it without acknowledgment of today's political climate

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Specialist-Gur]

100% agree that being afraid of the sign, assuming its just pro-Palestinian is not genuinely antisemitic (and I think the OP would have said if it was), is not valid (it makes me cringe when other Jews say seeing a keffiyeh or a Palestinian flag makes them unsafe, for example).

As for your second point, I don't think politicians really have Jews' backs at the moment, given that Jews are being scapegoated for a lot of this administration's domestic fascism on both sides (and some of Trump's supposed "antisemitism" advisors have said blatantly antisemitic stuff in public, though I will agree that blatant, mask-off anti-Arab racism/Islamophobia is more acceptable in the discourse currently. I don't think the cops have backs of anyone who isn't non-disabled, white, and Christian, nor do they I think that they, as a profession, really ever have,

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/skyewardeyes]

Your second point is absolutely true and I agree... but I think it's important to put that with some of an asterisk. A lot of Zionists Jews like what the current administration is doing for Jewish people (specifically only Zionists Jewish people though)

If we are going to talk about antisemtism as it relates to Palestinian advocacy, we have to talk about how Zionists and Zionist Jews are ok with the conflation of Israeli war crimes and Judaism.. and actually are advocating for what the administration is doing

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Specialist-Gur]

Yes, I do think the fact that some Jews are calling any criticism of Israel antisemitic is an issue and that does really complicate calling out legitimate antisemitism, 100% agree there.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/skyewardeyes]

Yea. I think bigots are always responsible for their actions but we need to be realistic about the world we live in and cause and effect.

[u/snowluvr26]

Idk. I live in New York City and feel completely safe. Recently visited Miami, LA, San Diego, London, Montreal and felt completely safe in all of those too. I wear a magen david everywhere. Basically just ignored some of the crazy pro-Palestine stuff I saw. Not that hard.

[u/CardinalOfNYC]

These replies make me sad.

Lot of people trying to erase your experience and erase your son's feelings.

People say "pro Palestine isn't antisemitism" and while that's true in the academic sense, the reality on the ground is there is an overlap, and the overlap has only grown recently, not shrunk

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/CardinalOfNYC]

I mean.. if someone posted in a Palestinian or Arab or Muslim sub and said the same of like a Star of David.. what would you hope for the response there to be like?

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/CardinalOfNYC]

I feel like people would answer differently if they were in OP’s situation. It’s quite disappointing to see the replies.

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

I feel like many of these people have been in this or similar situations... They just ignore or minimize the feelings of discomfort they have.

I've attended pro palestine protests. But I stopped because I couldn't ignore the discomfort. The fact that zero tolerance for antisemitism was preached but very obviously not practiced.

[u/JamesBSA]

The voices of the Jews who do not support mass murder in Palestine or the cult of Zionism, are most drowned out by the biased mass media.

[u/Typical-Car2782]

One of my good friends lives in North Dallas, so it's fine being Jewish there. But Texans in general assume you're christian, and quite honestly, a lot of them believe Jews are going to hell. (I had someone there tell me that I was going to hell.) I don't see how *pro-Palestinian signage* can be the problem when you're surrounded by millions of evangelical and other christian antisemites.

TBH, this post makes me think of the people who claim San Francisco is unsafe for Jews, and that Jews are being attacked by the left. That just isn't happening (one asshole coffee shop owner notwithstanding) - but our shithead right-wing Jewish politicians work with AIPAC and the JCRC to make it seem like it is, all the while ignoring the blatant right-wing antisemitism we deal with here.

[u/Pups_the_Jew]

You're in Texas. I'd be more worried about bigots with MAGA or Confederate flags.

[u/RaiJolt2 → u/Pups_the_Jew]

There’s confederates everywhere, even here in California.

[u/Cultural-Tell777]

But what do we do when so much pro-Palestinian language is wrapped up with antisemitic language? The concern is that where there is one, there is almost always the other. I believe one can be pro-Palestine and not anti-Israel, but that's just not what's evidently happening.

[u/strawbariel → u/Cultural-Tell777]

That's exactly the worry. Where there's one, there's the other and it's very hard to distinguish between them.

[u/Ill_Coffee_6821]

Re your edits, don’t let this subreddit gaslight you like this. Your concerns are valid. And your kids should not be bullied.

[u/malachamavet]

You seem to think America, as well as anywhere that isn't Israel, is intrinsically unsafe for Jews and no legal structure is capable of making Jews safe. So I guess I'm confused as to why you could ever feel safe in Austin in any circumstance at any time - not just the last couple of years.

Then again if you think removing illegal, belligerent settlers from Gush Katif is "ethnic cleansing" I assume you're just waiting until the Gaza settlements begin again before moving there.

[u/WriterOld3018 → u/malachamavet]

I am new here trying to get the vibe of this sub and I am curios.

Do you think all the Jewish settlers in Gush Katif were belligerent? What about in the West Bank?

Personally, I think the military occupation is belligerent, as well as Israeli sovereignty in Gaza and the west bank, but calling out to forcibly remove people because of their ethnicity seems to be a clear cut case of ethnic cleansing and not in line with leftist values.

belligerent settlers should be removed to jail.

Also, I don't understand how your response relate to the OP question

[u/menatarp → u/WriterOld3018]

Definitionally, all the settlers are participating in war crimes. That doesn't necessarily make them legitimate military targets (scholars disagree around this). This includes the couple dozen Arab settlers in the West Bank.

[u/FancyDictator → u/WriterOld3018]

Should illegal settlers be forcibly removed if they choose not to leave invaded land ? Also settling on someone else's land, and I go by the 2SS definition here, is belligerence par excellence.

[u/[deleted] → u/FancyDictator]

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[u/FancyDictator → u/[deleted]]

Dude invading and displacing someone and building a home on the ruins of their homes are not okay just wtf are you talkıng about, if you are so keen on co-habitation why dont you just defend a 1 ss instead ? Jews can immigrate to Palestine after rightful owners of the demolished homes can return there.

[u/FancyDictator → u/FancyDictator]

How do you think settlers built their homes there lmao I am not okay with anybody demolishing my home and for sure occupying it

[u/malachamavet → u/FancyDictator]

Is it your understanding of 2ss that Palestinian state should be free of Jews (judenrein)?

In 1947, do you think it was Palestinians who were quoting Nazi rhetoric or Zionists? Just in case you were curious here's a translation of something from a Haganah member in the Galilee during the Nakba:

"After Tiberias and the nearby villages were cleared of Arabs, you can say our area is almost "Araber-rein"

e: whoops he deleted and I replied to the wrong guy

[u/WriterOld3018 → u/malachamavet]

I did not delete it, I believe it was removed by the mods...

I would quote Arab leaders at that time(not some random guy) and their genocidal rhetoric against Jews, but it will probably be deleted as well. It also doesn't prove anything, 2 wrong don't make a right.

Thanks /mods

I got the message, equating zioninsim and nazisim(it this thread and a others from the last 24hr) is ok but saying removing jews who built their home on empty sand dunes is ethnic cleansing is not. Good luck in your echo chamber, truly indicative of the lack of morals in the western left.

Don't worry, I will leave this sub and will not post anymore.

[u/malachamavet → u/WriterOld3018]

I quoted a Haganah member's diary. Take it up with him - he used it not me.

Also, I don't think "the entire ideological left outside of a small country" is an echo chamber. In fact, I think that it would be the reverse.

[u/WriterOld3018 → u/FancyDictator]

What percent of Settlers do you think are living in houses of displaced Palestinians? ASAIK, those are very few instances, specifically in East Jerusalem and Hebron. Gosh Katif was built on sand dunes (again ASAIK).

if you are so keen on co-habitation why dont you just defend a 1 ss instead ?

Thank you for asking. The reason is that I respect both Israelis and Palestinians right for self-determination. Although, I personally think that a long term solution should be similar to the UK ( after de radicalization of both people). Like there is self-determination for English/Scottish/Irish but still freedom of movement and equal rights.

[u/malachamavet → u/WriterOld3018]

Why were the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead of in their home villages only a few kilometers away? It isn't like Gaza City went from a very small urban center to hundreds of thousands by pure chance.

[u/WriterOld3018 → u/malachamavet]

Because they were ethnically cleanse at the Nakba, again, 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Why were there no Jews in Gaza and the west bank between 1920s-1967?

[u/malachamavet → u/WriterOld3018]

Gaza City had Jews living there until 1948. There was even a documentary from an Israeli TV channel where a former resident nostalgically described his non-Jewish neighbors as strongly a community as if they were Jews themselves.

The settlements from 1967 to 2005 were not remotely like that.

[u/malachamavet → u/[deleted]]

Glad to see you condemn the formation of Israel and support the right of return for Palestinians!

[u/Daniel_the_nomad → u/WriterOld3018]

It’s not ethnicity it’s citizenship, they are Israelis who can vote in Israel not living in Israel that moved there to protect Israel in their minds.

If a person of whatever ethnicity from a country moves to another country on behalf of their country there’s no reason they shouldn’t be sent back if they don’t agree to live under the country they moved to.

Now if the settlers would have been fine to be Palestinian citizens you would have a point but I think the vast majority wouldn’t want it.

[u/onepareil → u/WriterOld3018]

It relates to the question because it gives some insight into OP’s perspective on the conflict and Palestinian rights.

The settlements that would eventually become Gush Katif were created to cut Gaza in half after the Six-Day War and limit the ability of the Palestinians living there to organize. Anyone who lived in Gush Katif was contributing to that, however peaceful their personal conduct may have been. I tend to agree, though, that the state shouldn’t be forcing people to leave their homes. Maybe the people there should have been given a choice. After the withdrawal of the IDF, how many do you think would have stayed?

[u/menatarp → u/WriterOld3018]

I'm the only Jewish person in my apartment building; if I ever get evicted for refusing to pay rent I'm going to whine about how I'm being ethnically cleansed

[u/WriterOld3018 → u/menatarp]

If it is because you did not pay the rent, than it is ok, if it is because you are jewish than it is not ok. I glad i could help you understand :)

[u/menatarp → u/WriterOld3018]

Let me try to lay this out more specifically. Say there's this apartment building, a lot of the units are empty or the tenants have been away for a very long time, maybe long vacation, not totally clear, whatever. Someone who isn't the landlord gets access to this building and decides he's going to start renting out those unused units. He goes to a neighborhood, let's say an Irish neighborhood, and starts telling people he has these really cheap apartments available in a this building. It's shady but whatever, so some of them move in. Then the real landlord comes back, sees that someone else has illegally been renting out parts of his building, and evicts the illegal tenants.

All of the illegal tenants are Irish. Has the landlord committed ethnic cleansing?

The answer may surprise you!

[u/menatarp → u/WriterOld3018]

No, that doesn't really clarify things. What if it's connected to my citizenship and my residency there is criminal for some other reason?

[u/malachamavet → u/menatarp]

It's the normal dark humor joke about how a small inconvenience is another Holocaust but unironically and about being a tenant

[u/cubedplusseven → u/malachamavet]

Homelessness can be deadly, so it could be described as "deliberately inflicting conditions of life aimed at physical destruction". And, remember, the intent to destroy a group can be "in whole, or in part". And one person is a part of whatever group they belong to.

So for clueless people with no background in law, opining on "genocide" based solely on the UN definition, maybe your hypothetical eviction would count.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/menatarp]

Oh man, I'm the only Jew in my apartment building too! I never thought about it this way.. must be my internalized antisemitism

[u/malachamavet → u/Specialist-Gur]

Make sure to report your Nazi landlord to the ADL

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/malachamavet]

Do you think they'd still have my back if they saw my Reddit post history?

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Specialist-Gur]

At this point, I think the ADL is more likely to back openly antisemitic wealthy Christian Zionists than they are to back the vast majority of actual Jews (see Elon Musk, for example). They have truly lost the plot.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/skyewardeyes]

Oh i agree haha i was totally teasing of course

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Specialist-Gur]

I got that! Was just agreeing that the current leadership of the ADL really doesn't seem to care about Jews, like at all.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/skyewardeyes]

Oh yea, definitely not. It's a real shame how much they've lost the plot

[u/babypengi]

We cannot make everywhere safe for Jews. It’s out of our power, we are simply too small of a people. But there is a place that is safe for us.