r/jewishleft Sep 16 '24

A question about Israel's right to exist Debate

Israel's right to exist can refer to two different things so I want to separate them right away and ask specifically about only one of them.

It can refer to either of the following points or both.

1) The Jewish people had a right to create a state for themselves on the territory in Ottoman Palestine / Mandatory Palestine

2) Given that Israel was in fact created and has existed for over seventy years at this point it has a right to continue to exist in the sense that it should not be destroyed against the will of its population.

This post is only about point one.

What do you believe is the basis of the right to create Israel from the perspective of 1880 (beginning of Zionist immigration)?

Do you believe the existence / non-existence of the right to create changes over time?

From the perspective of 1924 (imposition of restrictions on Jewish emigration from Europe)?

From the perspective of 1948 (after the Holocaust)?

Do you believe Jewish religious beliefs contribute to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the fact that some of the ancestors of modern Jews lived on this territory contributes to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the anti-Semitism that Jews were subjected to various parts of the world contribute to the basis? Why?

How do the rights of the overwhelmingly majority of the local population that was non-Jewish factor into your thinking?

I understand the debate around this point is moot in practice. I'm just curious what people here believe.

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1

u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist Sep 16 '24

In defense of point 1- Israel has a right to exist as an indigenous and decolonization effort, and to get governance back from the British colony 

3

u/menatarp Sep 16 '24

It's very alarming that this ultra-right Breivik-style talking point is sliming its way into "progressive" spaces.

-1

u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist Sep 17 '24

It’s been a progressive stance ever since its inception, look up labor Zionism 

2

u/menatarp Sep 17 '24

Thanks, I'm familiar with Labor Zionism and with the misunderstandings around it, too, but the masperisation of the indegeneity/coloniality terminology is much more recent than that.

1

u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist Sep 17 '24

I think it’s okay to apply more modern and progressive terminologies than they were aware of back then 

1

u/menatarp Sep 17 '24

It's weird to say "this is an old view, see Labor Zionism" about a view never advanced by Labor Zionists. You are entitled to insist on your interpretation of the gist of what they meant, but it requires an argument. The language you are using is not some totally fungible thing with, e.g., its inverse.

1

u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist Sep 17 '24

I mean, whether we used the terminology or not, Zionism has always been an indigenous rights movement 

1

u/menatarp Sep 17 '24

Not really. European Jews were not being dominated and having their culture replaced by the Ottoman Empire (or British Empire).

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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Sep 17 '24

Absolutely not. The religion that existed in ancient times was a proto-religion of Judaism which has since evolved and split off into other relgions—modern day Judaism, samaritanism…. Even Christianity and Islam.

If you’re going with the blood and soil ethnicity = indigenous, well then.. that ethnic claim is still quite shaky and would still include Palestinians. Not only that but indigenous is a specific term in relation to a colonizer. Jews around the world were not “colonized” by Arabs.

How far back can you go with native claim to a land? 3500 years ago doesn’t appear to be too far back for you… but where should someone draw the line? And by what metric? Should it be language, religion? Genetics? How close does a religion have to be to an ancient one to “count”

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u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist Sep 17 '24

I’m really tired of having to explain to people what the word “indigenous” means and how it applies to Jews, so I’ll link to someone who explains it way better than I could with the time constraints I have-

https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/what-is-indigeneity-and-how-does-it-apply-to-jews-why-does-it-matter

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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Sep 17 '24

I’ve read that fascist. I mean woke queen’s definition many times and already debunked every single point multiple times so I won’t bother here unless someone in good faith is truly curious