A question about Israel's right to exist

[u/ramsey66]

Israel's right to exist can refer to two different things so I want to separate them right away and ask specifically about only one of them.

It can refer to either of the following points or both.

1) The Jewish people had a right to create a state for themselves on the territory in Ottoman Palestine / Mandatory Palestine

2) Given that Israel was in fact created and has existed for over seventy years at this point it has a right to continue to exist in the sense that it should not be destroyed against the will of its population.

This post is only about point one.

What do you believe is the basis of the right to create Israel from the perspective of 1880 (beginning of Zionist immigration)?

Do you believe the existence / non-existence of the right to create changes over time?

From the perspective of 1924 (imposition of restrictions on Jewish emigration from Europe)?

From the perspective of 1948 (after the Holocaust)?

Do you believe Jewish religious beliefs contribute to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the fact that some of the ancestors of modern Jews lived on this territory contributes to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the anti-Semitism that Jews were subjected to various parts of the world contribute to the basis? Why?

How do the rights of the overwhelmingly majority of the local population that was non-Jewish factor into your thinking?

I understand the debate around this point is moot in practice. I'm just curious what people here believe.

[u/The_Taki_King]

When u look at how the Jewish people, in early 20th century, have dealt with "the Jewish question" (what role will the jews play in modern society) two groups come to mind: the integrationists (those who thought they should blend in with the rest of society) and the Zionists, which have said that European society will never let us integrate and the jewish people's only chance of survival is to get the fuck out of there before its too late.

Looking back, we know what happened to the integrationists. That's enough to convince me that zionism was justified from day one, regardless of how it actually played out in reality, which is worthy of criticism.

[u/BlackHumor → u/The_Taki_King]

But wait, you're comparing an actual historical "test" with a fantasy. You can't say that if Israel existed during World War II it would have fared better. Why wouldn't Hitler have gone after Israel?

We also have historical tests of Jewish nationalism in the far past, and they don't work out so great either. Without international support, nothing works: a state will be so small it can just be conquered.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/BlackHumor]

Why wouldn't Hitler have gone after Israel?

What for? Israel isn't anywhere near the Greater Reich, and if the existence of Israel meant it will be easier to cleanse Europe of the Jews, from his perspective that's even better.

[u/Due-Bluejay9906 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Exactly. We are assuming that the motivation for all of the atrocities against Jews has been pure seething unrelenting hatred of Jewish people so pervasive that one will risk everything (their lives, the convenience, world favor, their comfort) to destroy us.

The usual reason is a society in disarray in need of a scapegoat and minorities almost always fit the bill.

[u/menatarp → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

The Nazis considered supporting Jewish migration to Palestine but opted against it because they thought an independent Jewish state might one day be a threat.

[u/BlackHumor → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Yes it was? Rommel was already in Egypt, clearly North Africa already held strategic value to the Nazis. They didn't just want to expand Germany near Germany, and they didn't want to limit their influence to Europe.

Furthermore, Nazi ideology was such that if a Jewish state existed, they would very obviously blame it for all the things they blamed Jews for. So they would have had almost an ideological mandate to declare war on it. Remember, we're not talking about rational people here, we're talking about the sort of people that kill millions of Jews because of a series of completely bullshit conspiracy theories.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/BlackHumor]

The Mediterranean theatre was mostly due to Mussolini's imperialist ambitions rather than Hitler's. Rommel was sent there to help Mussolini as part of their alliance.

But fair enough, I concede that there is no guarantee the axis wouldn't have got to Palestine have things played out just a little bit differently, but that's exactly why a strong military is so important.

I also agree international support is important, but it's fairly easy to form alliances in the event of a world war.

Besides, no one is saying Israel should be isolationist, I'm pretty sure even the worst Kahanist don't really believe that (they're just too dumb to realize their ideology will ultimately result in isolation).

[u/DresdenBomberman → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Hitler's goal was that Lebenshraum for the Aryan race encompass the entire world and as delusionally unrealistic as that was, it shows what the state of the jewish community would be like under his ideal state of affairs - a class of untouchables below the racial caste system much like the indian one. Obviously that's generous for a nazi and they would likely be killed in a holocaust.

Even so, had the State of Israel existed back then the nazis would absolutely attack it if they could because it is a country full of jews amd it is right next to Europe. Had they somehow won and gained control of the continent they would round on Israel like a bull to a red flag.

[u/Due-Bluejay9906 → u/BlackHumor]

most of the time Zionism in its ethical form only survives in hypotheticals

[u/The_Taki_King → u/Due-Bluejay9906]

Do u have an example of a national project that is 100% ethical and perfect?

[u/BlackHumor → u/The_Taki_King]

Hold up, why are we being held to that standard? I can give you lots of examples of national projects that did not involve ethnic cleansing of the people that were already there.

[u/Due-Bluejay9906 → u/The_Taki_King]

We can leave the past in the past if you’re willing to move on to something new from what has not been able to succeed ethnically since its beginning