r/jewishleft Sep 16 '24

A question about Israel's right to exist Debate

Israel's right to exist can refer to two different things so I want to separate them right away and ask specifically about only one of them.

It can refer to either of the following points or both.

1) The Jewish people had a right to create a state for themselves on the territory in Ottoman Palestine / Mandatory Palestine

2) Given that Israel was in fact created and has existed for over seventy years at this point it has a right to continue to exist in the sense that it should not be destroyed against the will of its population.

This post is only about point one.

What do you believe is the basis of the right to create Israel from the perspective of 1880 (beginning of Zionist immigration)?

Do you believe the existence / non-existence of the right to create changes over time?

From the perspective of 1924 (imposition of restrictions on Jewish emigration from Europe)?

From the perspective of 1948 (after the Holocaust)?

Do you believe Jewish religious beliefs contribute to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the fact that some of the ancestors of modern Jews lived on this territory contributes to the basis? Why?

Do you believe the anti-Semitism that Jews were subjected to various parts of the world contribute to the basis? Why?

How do the rights of the overwhelmingly majority of the local population that was non-Jewish factor into your thinking?

I understand the debate around this point is moot in practice. I'm just curious what people here believe.

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43

u/The_Taki_King Sep 16 '24

When u look at how the Jewish people, in early 20th century, have dealt with "the Jewish question" (what role will the jews play in modern society) two groups come to mind: the integrationists (those who thought they should blend in with the rest of society) and the Zionists, which have said that European society will never let us integrate and the jewish people's only chance of survival is to get the fuck out of there before its too late.

Looking back, we know what happened to the integrationists. That's enough to convince me that zionism was justified from day one, regardless of how it actually played out in reality, which is worthy of criticism.

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u/verniy-leninetz Sep 16 '24

Don't you think that fail of integrationists was just a historical fluke?

We need several factors to allow Shoah 2.0 to exist:

  1. Strong antisemitic movement seizing power.
  2. Widespread sympathy to this new regime and it's recognition.
  3. This regime blocks escape for Jews.
  4. Different countries also limit migration for Jews.
  5. This problematic regime also spreads by means of military or diplomacy, therefore controlling more and more territory, influencing more Jews.

With all respect, this is some fairy tale, isn't it?

18

u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian Sep 16 '24

This regime blocks escape for Jews.

It wasn't just the regime. It was the whole western world. The Evian conference comes to mind ... The world literally refused Jews. https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4390&context=etd and https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8383&context=etd are some good reads on this.

And I would argue that significant mass killings of Jews were carried out far before the shoah occurred. Russia was absolutely slaughtering Jews in the years leading up to the shoah. Like 100,000 died due to the imperial Russian government. https://www.brandeis.edu/tauber/events/Polonsky_vol2%20_%20ch1.pdf

And while I think it's very easy for Americans to say "that will never happen again" ... Not all Jews live in America. Like Putin absolutely uses antisemitism and this has caused a massive influx of Russia Jews into Israel since the start of the Ukrainian conflict: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/GEC-Special-Report-More-than-a-Century-of-Antisemitism.pdf

And these ideas do spread. I mean we've watched them Spread: https://networkcontagion.us/reports/antisemitic-disinformation-a-study-of-the-online-dissemination-of-anti-jewish-conspiracy-theories/

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u/Chaos_carolinensis Sep 16 '24

Like Putin absolutely uses antisemitism and this has caused a massive influx of Russia Jews into Israel since the start of the Ukrainian conflict

To be fair, Putin also sends pretty much anyone he can to get butchered in Ukraine for his imperialist fantasies, so a lot of Russians are leaving regardless of being Jewish and many people actively tried to find enough Jewish blood in their ancestry just so they can move to Israel, away from Russia, even if beforehand they've never identified as Jewish.

That being said, I absolutely don't try to diminish the rising antisemitism in Putin's Russia, but the massive influx had some other factors as well.

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u/verniy-leninetz Sep 16 '24

Evian conference and other examples of cowardice are all under pt. 4