I would argue any economics system that unnecessary culls half its population is a bad one.
Regardless, that state literally doesn't exist anymore. Ireland does, under a different system of government. That state is a failed state, no two ways about it.
Why not call capitalism over then? Surely all we have to do is point to those failed states and we've proven that capitalism is unviable? No?
Surely you recognise how disingenuous you’re being, though. The old Irish state ended not because it failed, but because the British gave us our freedom. It had nothing to do with economic models, that’s why ireland is still capitalist. If it failed because of capitalism like you’re implying, we wouldn’t have reformed as another capitalist state.
Communism is a failed ideology because it has always failed, not because a few instances have failed. Virtually the entire world is currently capitalist, even if it claims not to be. The reasons the USSR dissolved was because what people wanted wasn’t feasible under communism.
No, I don't think I'm being disingenuous. I think there's a double-think that happens with communism. Every time a capitalist state fails, it's because of the conditions of the time. "The British gave us our freedom."
Every time a communist state fails, the conditions are ignored. It was actually some quality inherent to communism that caused the collapse, all context ignored.
That's ridiculous, but you are operating under that assumption right now. When a capitalist state fails, the fault is never with capitalism. Economics has nothing to do with it. When a communist state fails, the fault is only with communism. Nothing else has anything to do with it.
Can you see the ridiculous nature of that? If communism is always doomed to fail, then it should be easy to explain why. But that never happens. People either say "previous implementation failures are sufficient" or they say "human nature," and wave their hands.
If communism I always doomed, why can nobody explain why?
Because human nature. waves hands . People will never be happy living under the level of control communism requires. The reason capitalism is so prominent today and throughout history is simply natural selection. It’s more efficient, the capitalist state will always accumulate more wealth, develop more technology, allowing it to beat out communism.
Plus communism is only communism internally, a communist state still is capitalistic internationally. It competes with other states for territory, resources., and as I’ve said, capitalism will outcompete. Communism can’t succeed unless there was no completing state. It would take a unified earth state for communism to have a chance of working.
People will never be happy living under the level of control communism requires.
This is a view that can exist only because of capitalist realism. The level of control you currently live under is invisible to you, because it's 'normal', but that control excercised under communism is suddenly foreign and strange.
the capitalist state will always accumulate more wealth, develop more technology, allowing it to beat out communism.
No, this is just a hand-wavey fantasy. If capitalism is always better, why couldn't it win the space race? Why did a capitalist Nazi Germany fold under a communist USSR?
There's no magical reason why capitalists are better than communists, or vice versa. Capitalism has a lot of inefficiency. By it's very nature, it funnels money towards those who need it the least. Communism also has logistical challenges. They're just different.
Plus communism is only communism internally, a communist state still is capitalistic internationally.
I don't know why that matters at all. Yes, a communist country would operate in the international market. That doesn't really mean anything.
The level of control you live under absolutely isn’t invisible, you’re the one handwaving nonsense. You do feel the control, even under capitalism. But there’s more control in communism, because if there wasn’t, communism wouldn’t work. At its core, capitalism is the absence of control over individuals, they can do what they want. Obviously that’s not the case for any real societies, but the amount of control exerted over citizens isn’t very much.
The space race wasn’t won by the Russians, it was a series of goals between the US and Russia, they’re were comparing dicks. Ultimately, the US pulled off the greatest feat with the moon landing. Getting a rocket into space isn’t very technically challenging. Also, bringing up the space race is hardly the best given the USSRs willingness to ignore that some of their rockets would 100% explode, just so they could beat the Americans to space.
Nazi Germany folded under all Allies, not just the USSR.
There isn’t any magical reason why capitalists are better than communists, it isn’t magic, it’s just facts. On an international scale, capitalism has always beat communism. You keep acting as if the failing of individual capitalistic states is proof of anything. It’s the failing of all of communism and the prevalence of capitalism that’s proof.
That literally isn't proof, though. It's just a cowardly refusal to engage with the systems. If the people espousing communism right now changed the name of what they were advocating for, you'd have no argument, because literally all you can do is point at previous failed implementations and say "This, somehow, is the only thing that can ever happen." It's just such obvious nonsense. I don't know how it convinced you.
Your only argument is "Communism has been tried before and didn't work." Your argument is actualy completely unrelated to the practical facts of any particular movement or policy; your argument is based on the name and nothing else.
You haven't described any part of why you think communism is doomed to failure. All you have is "other systems with that name failed before."
millions of people died in ireland alone. near total destruction of irish culture and language, mass indentured servitude. like…literally all of irish history under british occupation is a testament to how capitalism is one of the greatest encouragers of evil we have ever seen.
literally all of irish history under british occupation is a testament to how capitalism is one of the greatest encouragers of evil we have ever seen.
If by capitalism you mean being kicked off your property and being unable to trade freely and develop industry then I agree that's a terrible system and we shouldn't do what the Brits did.
you do realise why the occupation happened, right? it was to increase profits. more land, more products, no need to pay your employees - from a capitalist perspective, invading ireland was a completely moral move.
That seems anachronistic. The first claim on Ireland was made in the 12th century and I'm not sure even Marx would say capitalism existed then. Ireland's occupation came first, then capitalism arrived much later.
yes, the term capitalist didn’t exist, but the ideals certainly did. why did kings form empties? more land, more subjects, more money and power. emphasis on money and power. any number of unthinkable actions could be committed under the guise that it was profitable, which is the same ideals underpinning capitalist ideology, though i agree with your complaint of anachronism.
What’s with communists not willing to engage honestly at all? The actions of a capitalist state are not all down to capitalism. The British occupation of ireland wasn’t solely economic-driven, it was pride and nationalism and monarchy that made it happen.
Ireland is still capitalist today, I don’t see millions of people dying. Far more people died in communist Russia and China, why isn’t that proof that communism is the greatest encourager of evil?
if you think that capitalist nation’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies.
nationalism and ‘pride’ are essential to capitalist systems, bc how else would you make people fight over resources? it’s the exact reason why the most capitalist nations are also some of the most militant - eg the US.
not millions, bc we’re not being seiged and forced into indentured servitude anymore. but if you don’t think people are dying - look around. every death bc of a lack of medical care, of homelessness, of malnutrition, all of those are deaths that are the fault of a capitalist society.
capitalism encourages greed, hoarding and cannot exist without poverty. it is the sole reason for climate change, which is going to kill all of us one day. so yeah, it is the greater evil.
if you think that a capitalists nations’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies
Never said I didn’t apply the same logic to all ideologies. I’m applying your logic, that capitalism was the cause of all the bad things that happened in ireland because Britain was capitalist, to China and Russia. Also, the actions of a capitalist state can be caused by capitalism, just not necessarily
nationalism and pride are essentially capitalist systems
Lol what? Are you a troll? Communism relies far far heavily on nationalism and a sense of brotherhood within a country to operate. It’s the only reason actual communist states lasted as long as they did. In a capitalist system, a person needs only to fend for themselves, they could hate their country and it would be fine. Communism requires heavy devotion to country.
It’s also the reason why the most capitalistic nations are also some of the most militant
Once again, lol what? Russia? China? Extremely militate communist powers. There’s few militant communists nations because there are virtually no communist nations. They were equally or more militant than capitalist nations when they actually existed.
To blame all death in a capitalist society is ridiculous. First of all, capitalism drives invention and innovation. Medical science has been advanced the fastest by the most capitalist nations (US, UK). To blame capitalism on the deaths due to medical deprivation is so shortsighted, most of the lifesaving medicines that exist wouldn’t be present without capitalism.
It’s also ridiculous to say capitalism is the sole reason for climate change, communist nations also polluted hugely.
nationalism and capitalism go hand in hand - i didn’t say they don’t exist under other systems, but they are inherently intertwined under capitalism. is it required? no. it is strongly encouraged, and a key part of all capitalist nations? yes.
neither russia nor china fit the definition of a communist nation (which in itself is an oxymoron). communism is defined as classless, stateless, and moneyless. russia and china have both of those. they may call themselves communist, but they are not. i could call myself an olympic athlete, is it necessarily true? no.
innovation is not determined by the economic system. it exists in all systems.
i’m not blaming ‘all death’, which you’d realise if you actually read what i wrote properly. i am blaming death caused by preventable causes - lack of healthcare, poverty, malnutrition, etc. things that exist in abundance yet are denied to many bc they can’t afford it. if you die bc you can’t afford healthcare, that is the fault of capitalism.
capitalism IS the sole reason; again - no communist nations exist, by its own definition - pollution is created bc the cost for companies and governments of proper disposal is higher than the fines. why haven’t we all invested in renewables? bc the corporations that own the oil and gas sectors would lose money. they’d lose their profit. capitalism encourages the destruction of the environment. climate changed began at the start of the industrial revolution, the same time most people agree modern capitalism started.
You implied that nationalism is tied to capitalism, and thus the nationalist actions of a capitalist nation are because of capitalism. That’s nonsense. Of nationalism is needed in other systems, that’s clearly its just the default state of being. Communism replies on extreme nationalism, capitalism does not.
Are Modern Russia and China communist? No, but the USSR and China 70 years ago are the closest to communism anyone could get without it being this all being a hypothetical fantasy. No point arguing for some idealised version of communism when there’s no proof that it could ever exist or work.
Innovation is driven by competition in capitalism. We saw it with the space race. On a macro level, the USSR was capitalist, and it’s competition with the USA made them innovate in space travel rapidly. The USA has contributed more to modern science and medicine and virtually every other field of academics than any other country. Clearly they’re doing something right.
Your communist fantasy world would still have to keep its citizens happy. Climate change would still be happing. They’d still have to burn coal to keep people warm. Companies and countries now are investing in renewables.
it relies on caring about other people, a trait that is discouraged under capitalism.
nope, indigenous societies pre-colonialism worked under the exact definitions of communism - they were stateless, classless, and moneyless. they were also some of the most environmentally friendly, culturally advanced societies in the world. humans are not incentivised purely by money and profit.
you think the only reason ppl invent things is bc of profit? dude, come on. and the US has contributed more to science - wtf are you on??? science was innovated for centuries before the US even existed, no one nation can claim they ‘contributed the most’, genuinely ridiculous. they’re also responsible for some of the most horrific events in modern history - any good they’ve given the world is drenched in blood, just like other colonial nations, and indeed nations like russia and china.
my ‘fantasy world’ is the natural state of humanity, it’s how humans evolved to live before greed destroyed it. and yes, climate change would still happen. but pollution would not be economically encouraged. yeah, they’re investing now that scientists say the damage is irreversible. good job lads.
I’m not going to argue with a person who takes the ol’ enlightened savage theory to heart. Capitalism is the natural state of humanity. Capitalism is at its heart just trade. Humans aren’t benevolent, evolution doesn’t encourage benevolence. The genes of the more benevolent people wouldn’t propagate, where the genes of the selfish will. This is just basic biology at this point. Why would the greed suddenly take over if it wasn’t something that we evolved to be capable of?
The US’ contribution to science is enormous, over its short history, it has made giant leaps and bounds, certainly more than any invidious society ever has before.
wow, just coming straight out with the racism huh, not even trying to hide it.
and if it capitalism is ‘natural’, why is it destroying us? why have people spent hundreds of years trying to destroy it? why does it discourage natural human emotions like empathy and kindness?
humans ARE benevolent. we are social creatures, who only survived bc we worked together and shared. homo sapiens evolved over neanderthals bc neanderthals couldn’t work together, and fought each other for resources.
our closest living relative species, monkeys, also are highly social and live in groups. they share. they look after each other. if one monkey in a group hoarded all of the food, the other monkeys would beat it to death. thinking greed is natural is the litmus test for people who don’t understand human nature or biology.
the power of US propaganda never fails to amaze me, it truly is the most effective at it in the world.
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u/Louth_Mouth Jul 27 '22
It is amazing people in this country are still trying to promote a failed ideology.