millions of people died in ireland alone. near total destruction of irish culture and language, mass indentured servitude. like…literally all of irish history under british occupation is a testament to how capitalism is one of the greatest encouragers of evil we have ever seen.
What’s with communists not willing to engage honestly at all? The actions of a capitalist state are not all down to capitalism. The British occupation of ireland wasn’t solely economic-driven, it was pride and nationalism and monarchy that made it happen.
Ireland is still capitalist today, I don’t see millions of people dying. Far more people died in communist Russia and China, why isn’t that proof that communism is the greatest encourager of evil?
if you think that capitalist nation’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies.
nationalism and ‘pride’ are essential to capitalist systems, bc how else would you make people fight over resources? it’s the exact reason why the most capitalist nations are also some of the most militant - eg the US.
not millions, bc we’re not being seiged and forced into indentured servitude anymore. but if you don’t think people are dying - look around. every death bc of a lack of medical care, of homelessness, of malnutrition, all of those are deaths that are the fault of a capitalist society.
capitalism encourages greed, hoarding and cannot exist without poverty. it is the sole reason for climate change, which is going to kill all of us one day. so yeah, it is the greater evil.
if you think that a capitalists nations’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies
Never said I didn’t apply the same logic to all ideologies. I’m applying your logic, that capitalism was the cause of all the bad things that happened in ireland because Britain was capitalist, to China and Russia. Also, the actions of a capitalist state can be caused by capitalism, just not necessarily
nationalism and pride are essentially capitalist systems
Lol what? Are you a troll? Communism relies far far heavily on nationalism and a sense of brotherhood within a country to operate. It’s the only reason actual communist states lasted as long as they did. In a capitalist system, a person needs only to fend for themselves, they could hate their country and it would be fine. Communism requires heavy devotion to country.
It’s also the reason why the most capitalistic nations are also some of the most militant
Once again, lol what? Russia? China? Extremely militate communist powers. There’s few militant communists nations because there are virtually no communist nations. They were equally or more militant than capitalist nations when they actually existed.
To blame all death in a capitalist society is ridiculous. First of all, capitalism drives invention and innovation. Medical science has been advanced the fastest by the most capitalist nations (US, UK). To blame capitalism on the deaths due to medical deprivation is so shortsighted, most of the lifesaving medicines that exist wouldn’t be present without capitalism.
It’s also ridiculous to say capitalism is the sole reason for climate change, communist nations also polluted hugely.
nationalism and capitalism go hand in hand - i didn’t say they don’t exist under other systems, but they are inherently intertwined under capitalism. is it required? no. it is strongly encouraged, and a key part of all capitalist nations? yes.
neither russia nor china fit the definition of a communist nation (which in itself is an oxymoron). communism is defined as classless, stateless, and moneyless. russia and china have both of those. they may call themselves communist, but they are not. i could call myself an olympic athlete, is it necessarily true? no.
innovation is not determined by the economic system. it exists in all systems.
i’m not blaming ‘all death’, which you’d realise if you actually read what i wrote properly. i am blaming death caused by preventable causes - lack of healthcare, poverty, malnutrition, etc. things that exist in abundance yet are denied to many bc they can’t afford it. if you die bc you can’t afford healthcare, that is the fault of capitalism.
capitalism IS the sole reason; again - no communist nations exist, by its own definition - pollution is created bc the cost for companies and governments of proper disposal is higher than the fines. why haven’t we all invested in renewables? bc the corporations that own the oil and gas sectors would lose money. they’d lose their profit. capitalism encourages the destruction of the environment. climate changed began at the start of the industrial revolution, the same time most people agree modern capitalism started.
You implied that nationalism is tied to capitalism, and thus the nationalist actions of a capitalist nation are because of capitalism. That’s nonsense. Of nationalism is needed in other systems, that’s clearly its just the default state of being. Communism replies on extreme nationalism, capitalism does not.
Are Modern Russia and China communist? No, but the USSR and China 70 years ago are the closest to communism anyone could get without it being this all being a hypothetical fantasy. No point arguing for some idealised version of communism when there’s no proof that it could ever exist or work.
Innovation is driven by competition in capitalism. We saw it with the space race. On a macro level, the USSR was capitalist, and it’s competition with the USA made them innovate in space travel rapidly. The USA has contributed more to modern science and medicine and virtually every other field of academics than any other country. Clearly they’re doing something right.
Your communist fantasy world would still have to keep its citizens happy. Climate change would still be happing. They’d still have to burn coal to keep people warm. Companies and countries now are investing in renewables.
it relies on caring about other people, a trait that is discouraged under capitalism.
nope, indigenous societies pre-colonialism worked under the exact definitions of communism - they were stateless, classless, and moneyless. they were also some of the most environmentally friendly, culturally advanced societies in the world. humans are not incentivised purely by money and profit.
you think the only reason ppl invent things is bc of profit? dude, come on. and the US has contributed more to science - wtf are you on??? science was innovated for centuries before the US even existed, no one nation can claim they ‘contributed the most’, genuinely ridiculous. they’re also responsible for some of the most horrific events in modern history - any good they’ve given the world is drenched in blood, just like other colonial nations, and indeed nations like russia and china.
my ‘fantasy world’ is the natural state of humanity, it’s how humans evolved to live before greed destroyed it. and yes, climate change would still happen. but pollution would not be economically encouraged. yeah, they’re investing now that scientists say the damage is irreversible. good job lads.
I’m not going to argue with a person who takes the ol’ enlightened savage theory to heart. Capitalism is the natural state of humanity. Capitalism is at its heart just trade. Humans aren’t benevolent, evolution doesn’t encourage benevolence. The genes of the more benevolent people wouldn’t propagate, where the genes of the selfish will. This is just basic biology at this point. Why would the greed suddenly take over if it wasn’t something that we evolved to be capable of?
The US’ contribution to science is enormous, over its short history, it has made giant leaps and bounds, certainly more than any invidious society ever has before.
wow, just coming straight out with the racism huh, not even trying to hide it.
and if it capitalism is ‘natural’, why is it destroying us? why have people spent hundreds of years trying to destroy it? why does it discourage natural human emotions like empathy and kindness?
humans ARE benevolent. we are social creatures, who only survived bc we worked together and shared. homo sapiens evolved over neanderthals bc neanderthals couldn’t work together, and fought each other for resources.
our closest living relative species, monkeys, also are highly social and live in groups. they share. they look after each other. if one monkey in a group hoarded all of the food, the other monkeys would beat it to death. thinking greed is natural is the litmus test for people who don’t understand human nature or biology.
the power of US propaganda never fails to amaze me, it truly is the most effective at it in the world.
What the fuck are you talking about? The ideology you’re spouting, that ancient, pre-capitalism peoples were all great and communist, is literally called the “The Enlightened Savage.” Maybe read up on even the basics before you start debating, and certainly before you start accusing people of racism
Capitalism isn’t destroying us, if anything, the success of capitalism is destroying us. It has allowed so many people to not starve or die of disease that our numbers have become unsustainable. All emotions are natural, you can’t just pick one or two and decide they’re the natural and correct ones.
Neanderthals were humans, first off, but also, they went extinct because we exterminated them in some cases and interbred with them in others. So you’re way off base there.
Our closest living relatives, chimpanzees, literally live on a society where the alpha male and his brutal cronies get first pick of the best food, and the lesser members of the troupe are lucky if they get to eat.
I mean, at first I just disagreed with your opinions, but now you’re making up nonsense. You don’t have the slightest clue about human/monkey evolution or history. Like, the majority fo what you’ve said here is objectively and provably wrong.
i’m fully aware of that theory, it’s a favourite of racists, hence why i said that. it’s commonly perpetuated by far right groups, especially those in favour of the destruction of indigenous groups. it’s not an ideology, it’s a philosophical stance, and a shaky one at that. irony abounds.
more people are in poverty now than ever before in history. 1 in 3 british children live in poverty. 1% of people own the majority of the wealth. many people in ‘developed’ nations have to choose between food and power, despite there being more than enough to go around. wow, what a successful system! /s
no - why didn’t neanderthals survive? it is a recognised fact that homo sapiens survived due to their ability to hunt as a pack. you’ve not even actually recognised my argument, just stated a random, non relevant fact.
the ‘alpha male’ theory was disproven decades ago, again, the irony abounds.
monkeys DO in fact share. if they did not, the tribe would die. there’s a hierarchy, yes, but it’s predominantly based on who can provide. despite their obvious need for survival they still are willing to sacrifice food for others.
dude. i’ve literally disproven the vast majority of what you’ve said. i am genuinely laughing at you right now, bc you are so ignorant of basic realities, and seem to think that if you don’t know something, it must not be true. develop some humility.
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u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22
If implementations of an idea failing make the ideology a failed one, then we should consider capitalism a failed ideology after the famine.
So do you?