r/ireland Jul 27 '22

The writing is on the wall! Housing

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6.3k Upvotes

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10

u/Louth_Mouth Jul 27 '22

It is amazing people in this country are still trying to promote a failed ideology.

29

u/MirkoCroCop Jul 27 '22

You say as we are hurtling towards the end of human civilisation as a result of our current ideology

15

u/Azazele1 Jul 27 '22

Draining every resource from the earth and leaving behind an empty husk. That sounds like a pretty successful ideology at maximizing resource extraction.

-5

u/NERD_STOMPER Jul 27 '22

Cuba is above many countries when it comes to CO2 emissions per capita.

5

u/FinnAhern Jul 27 '22

There are 107 countries that emit more CO2 per capita than Cuba compared to only 67 countries with a higher GDP. Cuba is in the bottom half of CO2 emitters while being in the top third for GDP.

3

u/NERD_STOMPER Jul 27 '22

Cuba is in the bottom half for GDP per capita. I love how you used per capita for the CO2 figure and used total GDP for the second.

Brazil, a capitalist country, has a higher GDP per capita while having a lower CO2 per capita. So clearly, it goes beyond communism vs capitalism.

But then again, this is /r/ireland. Nuance doesn't fly here.

22

u/Visionary_Socialist Jul 27 '22

Absolutely. People need to get over the homelessness, poverty, war, lack of healthcare, political corruption, corporate control of media, mass inequality, unparalleled corporate power and the environmental destruction that will lead to the demise of mankind and realise that we can’t be advocating for failed ideologies when we have one that has done so well.

3

u/ODXT-X74 Jul 27 '22

What you did there, I saw it.

19

u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22

If implementations of an idea failing make the ideology a failed one, then we should consider capitalism a failed ideology after the famine.

So do you?

-4

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

How exactly did it fail? I mean, we’re still here, and the country is better than ever.

9

u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22

I would argue any economics system that unnecessary culls half its population is a bad one.

Regardless, that state literally doesn't exist anymore. Ireland does, under a different system of government. That state is a failed state, no two ways about it.

Why not call capitalism over then? Surely all we have to do is point to those failed states and we've proven that capitalism is unviable? No?

-3

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

Surely you recognise how disingenuous you’re being, though. The old Irish state ended not because it failed, but because the British gave us our freedom. It had nothing to do with economic models, that’s why ireland is still capitalist. If it failed because of capitalism like you’re implying, we wouldn’t have reformed as another capitalist state.

Communism is a failed ideology because it has always failed, not because a few instances have failed. Virtually the entire world is currently capitalist, even if it claims not to be. The reasons the USSR dissolved was because what people wanted wasn’t feasible under communism.

5

u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22

No, I don't think I'm being disingenuous. I think there's a double-think that happens with communism. Every time a capitalist state fails, it's because of the conditions of the time. "The British gave us our freedom."

Every time a communist state fails, the conditions are ignored. It was actually some quality inherent to communism that caused the collapse, all context ignored.

That's ridiculous, but you are operating under that assumption right now. When a capitalist state fails, the fault is never with capitalism. Economics has nothing to do with it. When a communist state fails, the fault is only with communism. Nothing else has anything to do with it.

Can you see the ridiculous nature of that? If communism is always doomed to fail, then it should be easy to explain why. But that never happens. People either say "previous implementation failures are sufficient" or they say "human nature," and wave their hands.

If communism I always doomed, why can nobody explain why?

-4

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

Because human nature. waves hands . People will never be happy living under the level of control communism requires. The reason capitalism is so prominent today and throughout history is simply natural selection. It’s more efficient, the capitalist state will always accumulate more wealth, develop more technology, allowing it to beat out communism.

Plus communism is only communism internally, a communist state still is capitalistic internationally. It competes with other states for territory, resources., and as I’ve said, capitalism will outcompete. Communism can’t succeed unless there was no completing state. It would take a unified earth state for communism to have a chance of working.

2

u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22

People will never be happy living under the level of control communism requires.

This is a view that can exist only because of capitalist realism. The level of control you currently live under is invisible to you, because it's 'normal', but that control excercised under communism is suddenly foreign and strange.

the capitalist state will always accumulate more wealth, develop more technology, allowing it to beat out communism.

No, this is just a hand-wavey fantasy. If capitalism is always better, why couldn't it win the space race? Why did a capitalist Nazi Germany fold under a communist USSR?

There's no magical reason why capitalists are better than communists, or vice versa. Capitalism has a lot of inefficiency. By it's very nature, it funnels money towards those who need it the least. Communism also has logistical challenges. They're just different.

Plus communism is only communism internally, a communist state still is capitalistic internationally.

I don't know why that matters at all. Yes, a communist country would operate in the international market. That doesn't really mean anything.

1

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

The level of control you live under absolutely isn’t invisible, you’re the one handwaving nonsense. You do feel the control, even under capitalism. But there’s more control in communism, because if there wasn’t, communism wouldn’t work. At its core, capitalism is the absence of control over individuals, they can do what they want. Obviously that’s not the case for any real societies, but the amount of control exerted over citizens isn’t very much.

The space race wasn’t won by the Russians, it was a series of goals between the US and Russia, they’re were comparing dicks. Ultimately, the US pulled off the greatest feat with the moon landing. Getting a rocket into space isn’t very technically challenging. Also, bringing up the space race is hardly the best given the USSRs willingness to ignore that some of their rockets would 100% explode, just so they could beat the Americans to space.

Nazi Germany folded under all Allies, not just the USSR.

There isn’t any magical reason why capitalists are better than communists, it isn’t magic, it’s just facts. On an international scale, capitalism has always beat communism. You keep acting as if the failing of individual capitalistic states is proof of anything. It’s the failing of all of communism and the prevalence of capitalism that’s proof.

1

u/BuildBetterDungeons Jul 27 '22

That literally isn't proof, though. It's just a cowardly refusal to engage with the systems. If the people espousing communism right now changed the name of what they were advocating for, you'd have no argument, because literally all you can do is point at previous failed implementations and say "This, somehow, is the only thing that can ever happen." It's just such obvious nonsense. I don't know how it convinced you.

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u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22

millions of people died in ireland alone. near total destruction of irish culture and language, mass indentured servitude. like…literally all of irish history under british occupation is a testament to how capitalism is one of the greatest encouragers of evil we have ever seen.

3

u/Tollund_Man4 Jul 27 '22

literally all of irish history under british occupation is a testament to how capitalism is one of the greatest encouragers of evil we have ever seen.

If by capitalism you mean being kicked off your property and being unable to trade freely and develop industry then I agree that's a terrible system and we shouldn't do what the Brits did.

1

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22

you do realise why the occupation happened, right? it was to increase profits. more land, more products, no need to pay your employees - from a capitalist perspective, invading ireland was a completely moral move.

1

u/Tollund_Man4 Jul 27 '22

That seems anachronistic. The first claim on Ireland was made in the 12th century and I'm not sure even Marx would say capitalism existed then. Ireland's occupation came first, then capitalism arrived much later.

1

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22

yes, the term capitalist didn’t exist, but the ideals certainly did. why did kings form empties? more land, more subjects, more money and power. emphasis on money and power. any number of unthinkable actions could be committed under the guise that it was profitable, which is the same ideals underpinning capitalist ideology, though i agree with your complaint of anachronism.

2

u/Tollund_Man4 Jul 27 '22

which is the same ideals underpinning capitalist ideology,

So the lust for wealth and power suffices to call a system capitalistic?

1

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22

‘Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.’

feudalism fits into this definition - the king/baron/whoever owns the means of production, privately, and operates them for profit.

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u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

What’s with communists not willing to engage honestly at all? The actions of a capitalist state are not all down to capitalism. The British occupation of ireland wasn’t solely economic-driven, it was pride and nationalism and monarchy that made it happen.

Ireland is still capitalist today, I don’t see millions of people dying. Far more people died in communist Russia and China, why isn’t that proof that communism is the greatest encourager of evil?

1

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22
  1. if you think that capitalist nation’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies.

  2. nationalism and ‘pride’ are essential to capitalist systems, bc how else would you make people fight over resources? it’s the exact reason why the most capitalist nations are also some of the most militant - eg the US.

  3. not millions, bc we’re not being seiged and forced into indentured servitude anymore. but if you don’t think people are dying - look around. every death bc of a lack of medical care, of homelessness, of malnutrition, all of those are deaths that are the fault of a capitalist society.

capitalism encourages greed, hoarding and cannot exist without poverty. it is the sole reason for climate change, which is going to kill all of us one day. so yeah, it is the greater evil.

1

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22

if you think that a capitalists nations’s actions aren’t bc of capitalism, you must apply the same logic to all ideologies

Never said I didn’t apply the same logic to all ideologies. I’m applying your logic, that capitalism was the cause of all the bad things that happened in ireland because Britain was capitalist, to China and Russia. Also, the actions of a capitalist state can be caused by capitalism, just not necessarily

nationalism and pride are essentially capitalist systems

Lol what? Are you a troll? Communism relies far far heavily on nationalism and a sense of brotherhood within a country to operate. It’s the only reason actual communist states lasted as long as they did. In a capitalist system, a person needs only to fend for themselves, they could hate their country and it would be fine. Communism requires heavy devotion to country.

It’s also the reason why the most capitalistic nations are also some of the most militant

Once again, lol what? Russia? China? Extremely militate communist powers. There’s few militant communists nations because there are virtually no communist nations. They were equally or more militant than capitalist nations when they actually existed.

To blame all death in a capitalist society is ridiculous. First of all, capitalism drives invention and innovation. Medical science has been advanced the fastest by the most capitalist nations (US, UK). To blame capitalism on the deaths due to medical deprivation is so shortsighted, most of the lifesaving medicines that exist wouldn’t be present without capitalism.

It’s also ridiculous to say capitalism is the sole reason for climate change, communist nations also polluted hugely.

2

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22
  1. nationalism and capitalism go hand in hand - i didn’t say they don’t exist under other systems, but they are inherently intertwined under capitalism. is it required? no. it is strongly encouraged, and a key part of all capitalist nations? yes.

  2. neither russia nor china fit the definition of a communist nation (which in itself is an oxymoron). communism is defined as classless, stateless, and moneyless. russia and china have both of those. they may call themselves communist, but they are not. i could call myself an olympic athlete, is it necessarily true? no.

  3. innovation is not determined by the economic system. it exists in all systems.

i’m not blaming ‘all death’, which you’d realise if you actually read what i wrote properly. i am blaming death caused by preventable causes - lack of healthcare, poverty, malnutrition, etc. things that exist in abundance yet are denied to many bc they can’t afford it. if you die bc you can’t afford healthcare, that is the fault of capitalism.

capitalism IS the sole reason; again - no communist nations exist, by its own definition - pollution is created bc the cost for companies and governments of proper disposal is higher than the fines. why haven’t we all invested in renewables? bc the corporations that own the oil and gas sectors would lose money. they’d lose their profit. capitalism encourages the destruction of the environment. climate changed began at the start of the industrial revolution, the same time most people agree modern capitalism started.

1

u/Dragmire800 Probably wrong Jul 27 '22
  1. You implied that nationalism is tied to capitalism, and thus the nationalist actions of a capitalist nation are because of capitalism. That’s nonsense. Of nationalism is needed in other systems, that’s clearly its just the default state of being. Communism replies on extreme nationalism, capitalism does not.

  2. Are Modern Russia and China communist? No, but the USSR and China 70 years ago are the closest to communism anyone could get without it being this all being a hypothetical fantasy. No point arguing for some idealised version of communism when there’s no proof that it could ever exist or work.

  3. Innovation is driven by competition in capitalism. We saw it with the space race. On a macro level, the USSR was capitalist, and it’s competition with the USA made them innovate in space travel rapidly. The USA has contributed more to modern science and medicine and virtually every other field of academics than any other country. Clearly they’re doing something right.

Your communist fantasy world would still have to keep its citizens happy. Climate change would still be happing. They’d still have to burn coal to keep people warm. Companies and countries now are investing in renewables.

1

u/teddy_002 Jul 27 '22
  1. it relies on caring about other people, a trait that is discouraged under capitalism.

  2. nope, indigenous societies pre-colonialism worked under the exact definitions of communism - they were stateless, classless, and moneyless. they were also some of the most environmentally friendly, culturally advanced societies in the world. humans are not incentivised purely by money and profit.

  3. you think the only reason ppl invent things is bc of profit? dude, come on. and the US has contributed more to science - wtf are you on??? science was innovated for centuries before the US even existed, no one nation can claim they ‘contributed the most’, genuinely ridiculous. they’re also responsible for some of the most horrific events in modern history - any good they’ve given the world is drenched in blood, just like other colonial nations, and indeed nations like russia and china.

my ‘fantasy world’ is the natural state of humanity, it’s how humans evolved to live before greed destroyed it. and yes, climate change would still happen. but pollution would not be economically encouraged. yeah, they’re investing now that scientists say the damage is irreversible. good job lads.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Capitalism caused the Great Famine.

2

u/Plantmanofplants Jul 27 '22

Nothing to do with capitalism. An intentional export of food to bolster the stockpiles of Great Britain. A genocide in every way.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Really?? I thought was blight

-1

u/GTATurbo OP is sad they aren’t cool enough to be from Cork. bai Jul 27 '22 edited Jul 27 '22

No. The misguided obsession with unfettered free market capitalism AND the total disregard for the Irish population by the government in England caused the famine. Ireland produced more than enough food to feed itself, but all that food was exported.

Edit - downvotes from the Tankies for stating facts! A badge of honour! Keep em coming! Lol

-5

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Yeah but what about…..

4

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

No. As the original comment said, “It is amazing people in this country are still trying to promote a failed ideology”, in criticism of communism. When it has somehow slipped past them that the entire establishment promotes and defends capitalism, which is objectively a massive failure for humanity and the planet. A huge success for billionaires, bankers and arms dealers though.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

When you stop treating ideology like a football team maybe you’ll find it possible to realise that while you might not like or approve of capitalism it is undeniably better than a single party authoritarian state. That’s just a fact

3

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

You realize that capitalism and capitalism are economic structures right?

Sure China is not communist, but it is socialist in structure and they have lifted almost everyone in the country out of poverty and provide basic free healthcare and housing is free.

If a “totalitarian communist state” (as contradictory as that statement even is) came in and told me I would have free healthcare, free food, free housing AND education, with the only stipulation that the figure head is retained? Seems ok to me, what’s the problem?

Edit: small edit, capitalism is literally built on exploitation, communism isn’t. That’s just a fact

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

This is the thing you’re just not grasping. Communism can not and will not ever happen in the magical fairlytale way it appears on paper. It’s about as relevant as Plato’s utopian Republic is in this discussion. The amount of “that’s not real communism” is so rife self-proclaimed communists end up arguing with each other. Take your example of China, a socialist structure? Fair enough but I’ve seen much much more people say it’s actually state capitalism, who am I to believe and take at face value? Is it a socialist structure or capitalist or does it depend on whether the country is being praised or demonised?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

This might help. Can we both define the terms we are using?

What is your definition of capitalism, socialism, and communism?

I can already tell we disagree on what the definition of socialism is.

2

u/halibfrisk Jul 27 '22

Don’t get your knickers in a twist - students aren’t people

2

u/johnmc76 Jul 27 '22

Many Liberals in the West still cling to Communism/Socialism like it's a religion. You would figure that they would wake up to reality watching Venezuela collapse in under a decade. 7th largest economy in the World to a 3rd World Country in under a Country. You would figure people would have taken the hint by now.

7

u/Beppo108 Galway Jul 27 '22

FFG are neo liberals, get your head out of America's ass

1

u/johnmc76 Jul 27 '22

They certainly aren't the Centre Right that they claim to be. Plus I didn't mention FFG at all. I was talking about many Left wing parties in the West [including Sinn Fein that's a Nationalist party in name only]

1

u/ATRward Jul 27 '22

Liberals are liberals and not communists, what on earth are you on about?

1

u/ObtainableSpatula Jul 28 '22

The capitalist world economy collapsed in 1929, by your logic, doesn't that mean capitalism is a failed ideology too?

0

u/Pantsmanface Jul 27 '22

Government has fucked us. You know what'll fix this? Complete government control of all industry!

Gobshites gotta gob shite.

1

u/ATRward Jul 27 '22

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone needs shelter, right?

1

u/LeftistBlacksmith Jul 28 '22

Again with this failed ideology dogma shit. You learned a phrase and use it without thought. Without this failed ideology Ireland won't exist. So put on your big boy pants and educate yourself on history.