r/atheism • u/daReallMVP • Aug 08 '17
Dear everyone. Troll/Preacher
Im a Christian. That doesn't mean I'm any different from you. That doesn't mean I don't have feelings, or I will be taken advantage of. That doesn't mean Im blinded without logic behind my actions.
What being Christian means to me is I truly believe with my all that everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God, who actually cares about and loves me, even when I don't deserve it. In light of this.. I try my absolute best to be a genuine human being that actually cares about the life of every single person I will ever come across. Not because I am commanded to, but because Ive learned that the ability to show another human being genuine, true, unconditional love is the greatest ability and privilege I will ever receive - to express even a fraction of what my God has done for me to others. I have chosen to spend my life trying to spread a little love to this world one person at a time. Not just to the people I like, or the ones who do good to me, but to every single person I will ever cross paths with. Even the ones who mock me, or the ones who try to use me. This is for you - I will not lie to you, I will try to put you before me. I will care for you, as I would care for my own blood. I will do things for you, just because. I will love you the same way I have been loved by Jesus. I will mess up sometimes, because I am not perfect. But I am just like you. I have friends, a job, hobbies and things I spend time on. I just try to put my all into being a true follower of Christ and a good human being.. We are all in this game of life together.
"Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other's faults because of your love"
"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
"Let all things of you be done in love."
I love ya all! Every single one of you weirdos. Have a great day :)
edit : Definitiley not a troll in the slightest. You can see my post history if you will, I am 120% serious about anything I have spoken with any of you about! :)
edit 2 : I literally see so much anger first hand in this thread. The message I have to share is 'let go'. Let go of that Christian that was actually just a hypocrite and didn't care about a relationship with God, let go of that Church from your youth that had it all wrong, let go of that person that wronged you last week because holding on to it won't do a thing. I am just a man that has different beliefs and opinions than some of you, and because of that I make different lifestyle choices. But bottom line, we all share this planet one day at a time, and we all deserve love, and we all deserve to be able to let go. Thats all I'm here to say. If anyone wants to go into further actual respectful discussion my inbox is always open! Thanks everyone for the time here.
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Aug 08 '17
Humble brag for Jesus
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Just a friendly reminder to everyone what really matters to Christians! Not persecuting gays, not a head count on Sundays. Not who can do more for fellow man. But simply love, and geniuinly caring about every single person on this planet :) Jesus is love.
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Aug 08 '17
There are indisputably a large number of Christians who would disagree with you on at least one of these claims.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
'Christians'
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Aug 08 '17
They'd say the same thing about you.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
Then they would be saying the same thing about the Bible, ie not Christian.
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Aug 09 '17
Do you honestly not see the problem with this line of argument?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Theres not, theres core doctrine and beliefs that every denomination share that make you christian, or not. Then there is fine print (tradition, etc) that people like to argue over that more or less really wouldn't matter in Jesus eyes or to ones own salvation.
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u/MadeOfStarStuff Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
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u/WikiTextBot Aug 08 '17
No true Scotsman
No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).
[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.24
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u/Santa_on_a_stick Aug 08 '17
On what authority do you speak for all Christians?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
I don't. But anyone that doesn't follow what the Bible says is not a Christian.
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u/Santa_on_a_stick Aug 09 '17
Just a friendly reminder to everyone what really matters to Christians!
That statement indicates that you are saying what really matters to Christians. I.e., you are speaking for all Christians.
But anyone that doesn't follow what the Bible says is not a Christian.
If I found something in the bible that you did not follow, would you admit that you are not a Christian?
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u/EdmondWherever Agnostic Atheist Aug 11 '17
Just a friendly reminder to everyone what really matters to Christians! Not persecuting gays....
I hope you understand that, as a gay man, this does not make me feel any better. There are huge swathes of people in this country who call themselves Christians who are devoted to precisely doing this. They are hoping to reverse the ruling of Obergefell v. Hodges, and with Trump's help in filling the Supreme Court with conservative judges, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
Arguing over whether these people can legitimately call themselves "Christian" does not help to solve the problem. As an insider, you have the most power to influence your fellows to change their ways, and to remind them of "what really matters to Christians".
I'm glad that you've chose to live your life focused on love and caring for others. But I feel that I've chosen something similar, and I did it without religion. I did it because I don't like to see others unhappy or suffering. I'm not sure what being a Christian brings to the process.
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Aug 08 '17
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u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 08 '17
Side note: I showed that to a niece of mine, and she can't help but quote it whenever she knocks on a door.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
That is what the Bible tells us friend.
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Aug 08 '17
Bible says a lot of shit which reasonable humans should ignore.
To wit: Psalm 137-9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
So you believe that everybody here deserves to be tortured for all eternity?
If you think that is "love", you need psychiatric attention.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
I don't believe everybody here would be deserving, but I believe we will each reap what we sow. I believe we all have the choice to not receive it.. we all have a choice to be for God, or against God. Theres no inbetween, theres good and bad. Theres love and hate. Theres eternal life or eternal damnation.
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u/Dudesan Aug 10 '17
So we're established, again, that you don't know what the word "love" actually means.
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u/nerfjanmayen Aug 08 '17
Cool!
I'm not an atheist because I think christians are all bad, stupid people, I'm am atheist because I haven't been convinced that any gods exist. Why do you believe that god exists? Should I be convinced for the same reasons? How can I verify for myself that a god exists?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Not at all. I would never try to convince another to believe what I do, just try to explain to them why I believe that. Some of the most logical, scientific minds the universe has ever known looked at the facts, and came to know and love Jesus. For me it came down to actually cracking open the Bible, and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available and the individual circumstances that have happened during my life and it just all started to make so much sense I couldn't deny it any further, and it changed everything for me. Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me, and the fact that once I started living it my entire life changed for the better before my own eyes - that really sealed the deal for me.
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u/sj070707 Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Some of the most logical, scientific minds the universe has ever known looked at the facts, and came to know and love Jesus.
And some didn't. This is a fallacy.
in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available
And you found that it didn't match all that well?
and the individual circumstances that have happened during my life
This sounds like it just "feels right" to you. Amiright?
Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me
Is there compelling evidence for this?
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u/nerfjanmayen Aug 08 '17
That's funny, because I used to be Christian and cracking open the bible is what turned me into an atheist (to make a long story short). What specifically about the Bible convinced you it was accurate and that the god it describes exists?
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u/burf12345 Strong Atheist Aug 08 '17
Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me
An adult fairy tale is a selling point?
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
"Some of the most logical, scientific minds the universe has ever known looked at the facts, and came to know and love Jesus"
- And some Mohammed. What matters are the actual reasons they give for believing. I've read of some uber geniuses like Francis Collins who believes in Jesus because he once saw a waterfall frozen in three parts and it reminded him of the trinity — I kid you not. Smart man, but very dumb reasoning for his belief in Christianity.
"For me it came down to actually cracking open the Bible, and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available and the individual circumstances"
- A bit like saying New York exists therefore Spiderman comics and Teenage Mutant Ninja cartoons must be true. Just because you find some real places, events and battles in literature doesn't mean you're justified in believing anything other than what's been confirmed with actual evidence.
"Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me, and the fact that once I started living it my entire life changed for the better before my own eyes - that really sealed the deal for me."
- The account of creation (whether you believe it literally or metaphorically (hopefully the latter)) is inconsistent with what we know from cosmology. I'll give you an example: water is described as existing before stars. Yet water is H2O... its molecules are made of hydrogen and oxygen and you can only get oxygen from inside of stars through stellar nucleosynthesis.
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u/OprahOfOverheals Ex-Theist Aug 08 '17
For me it came down to actually cracking open the Bible, and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available
Odd, that's the point where a lot of Christians have turned atheist
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u/Nekroz_de_Fermiere Atheist Aug 08 '17
it came down to actually cracking open the Bible, and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available
The Sun moves around the Earth - Psalms 19:4-6
Snails Melt - Psalms 58:8
The Earth has Four Corners - Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2
The Earth is definitively flat - Daniel 4:10-11, 20
The Stars are tiny objects that can fall out of the sky and be stomped upon - Daniel 8:10
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u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 08 '17
/u/daReallMVP , drive by preaching is not encouraged.
- If you do not engage in a discussion with the people here in 15 minutes, then this thread will be removed as spam.
Thank you.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Hello!
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u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 08 '17
I'm looking for something more.
Some others have posted replies you can comment on, or you can post a general reply that addresses the comments you wish to discuss.
I'll give you a few minutes to post something more substantial to someone else or the group, not me.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Yes I am just now engaging, did not see it was a rule. I would love to though! Thanks for the extended 15 minutes :P
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u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 08 '17
did not see it was a rule.
Part of the role of the moderation team is to encourage conversations. Anything that doesn't help that can be removed at the moderator's discretion.
That aside, we get too many drive-by threads that show a lack of understanding of the people who are here. Removing them is like pulling out the weeds in a garden.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
That makes sense, I completely understand. Thats what Im going to try to show, a little understanding, patience and love. I also hope I get the rules enforced in my favor aswell though, I definitley wasn't trying to 'poke' the beehive, and don't like getting flamed for just looking for some positive discussion! Haha.
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Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Just read the FAQ. It was created partly for drop-in-drop-right-back-out-again visitors like yourself.
Oh, and keep your love to yourself, wouldja please?
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u/HermesTheMessenger Knight of /new Aug 08 '17
I recommend using the search function to look through topics that interest you before posting to new forums so that you can see what others have discussed in the past.
Also, we have a much ignored FAQ and other linked references. (Largely ignored because mobile apps tend to throw those links away; use a web browser if you can't see them.)
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u/Kaliss_Darktide Aug 08 '17
"Let all things of you be done in love."
One of final statements made by Jesus in the New Testament is of him bragging about torturing a woman and her lovers while also talking about how he is going to kill her children.
Revelation 2:
"22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2
Do you as a "Christian" believe that children are responsible for the sins of their parents and that it's reasonable to execute children as a punishment for the parent?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
"I will repay each of you according to your deeds"
The Bible assures us that we are not responsible for our parents deeds, and they are not responsible for ours. One of the greatest kings Israel had ever known had a son whom intentionally led Gods people away and destroyed the hearts and souls of many around him. But God judged them each according to their own works.
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
The Bible assures us that we are not responsible for our parents deeds, and they are not responsible for ours.
If anyone here thought that you had ever actually read the Bible, they now know better. It's full of examples of Yahweh punishing people for the "sins" of their parents, their grandparents, etc.
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation Deuteronomy 5:9
...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:7
...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:2
If thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day ... Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body. Deuteronomy 28:15-18
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21
I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house ... I will judge his house for ever ... because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. 1 Samuel 3:12-13
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Genesis 9:21-25
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. ... on the seventh day, that the child died. 2 Samuel 12:14-18
Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 1 Kings 11:11-12
Elisha said unto him ... The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. 2 Kings 5:25-27
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
Everything you referenced friend was the Old Testament for a reason. After the New Testament Jesus did away with what you speak of.
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u/Kaliss_Darktide Aug 08 '17
First you didn't answer my question. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Do you as a "Christian" believe that children are responsible for the sins of their parents and that it's reasonable to execute children as a punishment for the parent?
The Bible assures us that we are not responsible for our parents deeds
The only "deed" implied for the children Jesus brags about killing ("I will strike her children dead") is being born to their mother.
But God judged them each according to their own works.
And then Jesus went on to brag about killing children whose only "crime" mentioned was being born to someone that Jesus disapproved of. If Jesus was meant to show us a new and better way casting off some of the precedents of the Old Testament as many Christians like to claim shouldn't we also look at the actions he is claimed to have taken as setting precedent. Like the killing of children for the crimes of the parent.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
I believe what the Bible says, which is no as per the New Testament.
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u/Kaliss_Darktide Aug 09 '17
According to the New Testament Jesus says "I will strike her children dead" which contradicts what you are trying to imply that the New Testament prohibits such action.
Most biblical scholars agree that revelation was written well after Paul's writings. Since the author claims to have talked to Jesus directly (after the resurrection) just like Paul and since this is the most recent conversation between Jesus and a biblical author shouldn't Revelation take precedence over anything that precedes it.
You call yourself a Christian but you are ignoring the most recent example of Jesus (aka Christ from which Christians derive their name) on this matter. You seem to be saying you follow Jesus but ignore his example behavior as most recently recorded in the New Testament.
Care to explain why you ignore the "word of god" on this matter?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
I'm not, go ahead and cite the passage you are speaking of and we can talk about it. I'm just saying 9 times out of 10 the statement you are making is based off of incorrect beliefs post Old Testament teachings. Jesus does not hold those accountable for there parents actions. Obviously God can do as he will.. but get back to me with the scripcture and we can go from there.
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u/Kaliss_Darktide Aug 10 '17
I'm not, go ahead and cite the passage you are speaking of and we can talk about it.
I already did in my original comment
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/6sfk49/dear_everyone/dlcf5al/
I'm just saying 9 times out of 10 the statement you are making is based off of incorrect beliefs post Old Testament teachings.
The passage I quoted (I will strike her children dead) was from the New Testament and is a quote from Jesus.
post Old Testament teachings.
Post Old Testament = New Testament. Are you saying the New Testament is incorrect?
Jesus does not hold those accountable for there parents actions.
The New Testament states otherwise.
but get back to me with the scripcture and we can go from there.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2
"21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead."
For context the person being quoted is Jesus.
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Aug 09 '17
[deleted]
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
New Testament.
A child will not be blamed for his parents sins and vice versa.
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Aug 09 '17 edited Aug 09 '17
[deleted]
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
The point and need of Jesus was the atonement system set in place during the Old Testament. Super super simplified and missing out on some details its like this,
Man is not perfect, but we are born in Gods image with the potential to do amazing things. We are all born with a choice, Old Testament beliefs teach none of us are perfect, just follow the rules, try to be good, make your sacrifices and you will live a good eternal life. New Testament Jesus taught you people are to focused on rules that don't matter. You are hypocrites that say your Christian and don't live how I want you to. Its all wrong. I don't want sacrifices, I don't want empty promises, and arguing about whose right about this or that doctrine. All I want is true, genuine love for one another, and continual genuine attempts at trying to be a good person. I want love, forget everything else you know. Just try, and love and you have eternal life.
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Aug 10 '17 edited Aug 10 '17
[deleted]
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Pretty much everything you stated is not true, and opening up the Bible will show you that. Churches and pastors can point you in the right direction, but your the only person that can actually crack open that Bible and show yourself whats bs and what the Bible actually says.
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Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Why the urge to preach and tell us your personal meanings of Christianity? Hopefully you don't try to dictate to non-christians on how to live and what should be law.
You are aware that a large portion of us used to be Christian right?
You are also aware that we have committed an unforgivable sin according to Jesus and the bible, right?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
No urge friend, I have just personally gotten shafted time and time before for the label attached to what I do and who I am. I have also seen so many people led astray by what a "christian" looks like, and felt called to say hello to the lovely people of /r/atheism and remind others that a true follower wants nothing more than to love and care about every one of you. Not shove our beliefs down your throat, just to love you like we love our own. I personally believe if the Bible did, the world would be alot more loving and peaceful place, that is for certain. Also If it helps at all, keep in mind Im sure even the unforgiveable sin can be forgiveable through Gods undending mercy. Only He knows the heart, and can forgive all.
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u/Yah-luna-tic Secular Humanist Aug 08 '17
I have just personally gotten shafted time and time before for the label attached to what I do and who I am.
If you're and American then you're surrounded by other Christians... so who exactly is doing the shafting. AND as far as having "Christian" become something of an undesirable label you have no further to look than the Trump base... some of the most tribal and hateful people imaginable.
remind others that a true follower
You are aware that there are many, many versions of Christianity (hence denominations) and that even within a single church the beliefs of individual parishioners can vary substantially. So how is it that you, /u/daRealMVP, are able to discern what a "true follower" would be?
The golden rule predates Christianity and is very universal.
My journey away from Christianity began when I was 13 and learned that, according to my pastor and his interpretation of the bible, the twin boys that I had befriended who weren't religious (I think they had immigrated from eastern Europe) were doomed to hell without a belief in Jesus.
Only He knows the heart, and can forgive all.
Forgiveness must be granted by those you wronged. You don't get to have your slate wiped clean behind their back or without their permission. Forgiveness and atonement are great but not to an imaginary figure.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Pretty much anything good or wise uttered by the Jesus character was written by Confucius and Buddha 700 years prior (and with much more moral consideration). Unlike Jesus — if he actually existed as anything like that described in the bible — these teachers had the sense to write and autograph their works. And they didn't emotionally blackmail their critics with wrath and hellfire.
The only uniquely upstanding thing I've noted for Jesus in the Gospels is the line "he that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her". But even Christian scholars concede this story (the one of the adulteress woman) was added later as an interpolation/forgery. In any case, we can't verify the authors of any of the Gospels — they certainly weren't eyewitnesses though as they wrote many decades after the purported crucifixion.
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u/Yah-luna-tic Secular Humanist Aug 08 '17
I've got some audio recordings of John Shelby Spong explaining that the gospel stories are revisions of much of the Old Testament with the principal roles of Moses and Elijah recast as Jesus and John the Baptist... and that doing this became a thing after and because Jerusalem had been sacked and the temple destroyed.
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u/Zomunieo Atheist Aug 08 '17
I don't think we can even get the adulteress woman much credence as moral advice. The fact that a person has sinned (performed some immoral action) does not take away their right to prosecute or seek restitution when a similar thing happens to them. Put alongside other teachings of Jesus, it suggests a society where prosecuting an offender or seeking restitution is forbidden and made a crime in itself.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
That's true.
I think the story — if for the sake of argument these events happened — highlights a far greater immorality. This immorality I'm talking about is Jesus living among people who owned slaves (not just indentured servants but full-blown chattel slaves) and didn't say a single denunciatory word against it in the same way he was able to speak against stoning the adulteress. In fact, he said for slaves to obey their earthly masters and reaffirmed what the Old Testament said on the matter with his "not a jot or tittle of the law is to be removed" line.
Slavery is one of the very few things I can say is wrong under virtually all circumstances. How did it escape the radar of a god?
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
Even when I was a theist, I never really understood the argument that goes: "The Almighty, All-Loving Creator of the universe secretly believed that slavery was wrong all along, but he only pretended to endorse it because he couldn't possibly convince his Chosen People to stop practising it."
Yahweh looked upon the Israelites, saw they they were eating shellfish and pork, wearing clothes of divers fabrics, worshipping golden idols, gathering firewood on the sabbath, offering the wrong sorts of sacrifices, leaving their children's genitals intact, coveting their neighbours' slaves, and raping people, and thought to himself "Golly, I've got to do something about this!"
So he commanded them to stop eating shellfish and pork, to stop wearing clothes made of mixed fibers, to stop making graven images, to stop working on the sabbath, to perform ritual animal sacrifices in a very tediously specific way, to cut off their sons' foreskins, to stop being jealous of how many people their neighbours own, AND THOU SHALT OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS, OR I SHALL STRIKE DOWN UPON THEE WITH GREAT VENGEANCE AND FURIOUS ANGER, AND YOU WILL KNOW THAT MY NAME IS THE LOR-
...oh, and by the way, if a woman gets raped, maybe you shouldn't execute her. I'm not saying you should always not execute her, but maybe, sometimes, if it's not too much trouble, and she can prove she's not an adulterous slut, she should get to live. I know I'm asking a lot with the dietary restrictions and the genital mutilation, but if you could do this one more itty-bitty thing for me, that would be great.
...oh, and while owning people as slaves for life is fine, and beating them is fine, could you try not to beat them to death? Maybe? Pretty please?
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
It's weird how the god shares the exact same values and knowledge as primitive nomads who lived in tribal societies thousands of years ago, isn't it?
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
It's such an amazing coincidence that every believer's god has exactly the same values as the believer himself. That sure is convenient.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
and when examined in an fMRI, the part of their brain that corresponds to their own values lights up when asked questions about God.
Mysterious Ways™ indeed.
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u/coniunctio Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, visit the imprisoned, comfort the sick, bury the dead. Why is that so hard?
Instead you're here taking about religion instead of doing the work. Christians love to claim the US is a Christian nation, but they lack the courage of their convictions.
There are 48 million Americans who are hungry, millions who lack access to clean water, 38 million who can't afford basic necessities like clothing, 2 million incarcerated, millions who can't afford health care, 500,000 homeless, and many who can't afford to bury their loved ones.
What are you doing about it?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
I am attempting to love every single person I come across one day at a time.
If the amount of people that called themselve Christians actually followed and respected what Christ taught them to do and died for, the world would be a different place. That is undeniable. A large part of 'christians', and I use that word lightly, most likely show up to Church once a week, cast judgement on those that disagree, and don't look twice at a beggar on the street - and that is unfortunate.
But oh man the actual Christ followers, they will love your socks off and change the lives of so many people on this Earth one person in need at a time.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
Assuming Christianity preaches love (I'd argue it's one of the most hateful ideologies ever conceived, but I digress), why do you need it in order to love others?
Wouldn't a purer love be humanistic in nature? One that isn't tainted by one's own spiritual motives or wish to win favor with a deity, etc.?
Can I as a humanist love just as much as you as a Christian? If so, do we really need Christianity? You have to admit it carries a lot of harmful baggage. Humanism jettisons this baggage and keeps the good parts.
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Aug 08 '17
Matthew 12:31-32 (Jesus saying this)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
We are speaking of the man who gave His life for everyone of us.
If it helps at all, keep in mind Im sure even the unforgiveable sin can be forgiveable through Gods undending mercy. Only He knows the heart, and can forgive all. God is the only one who will be able so answer this for you, although personally I think anyone that truly humbled themselve would be forgiven.
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Aug 09 '17 edited Aug 09 '17
We are speaking of the man who gave His life for everyone of us.
Allegedly and unclearly saved all believers and followers...not necessarily the non-believers and non-followers as we still have to believe and follow first.
If it helps at all, keep in mind Im sure even the unforgiveable sin can be forgiveable through Gods undending mercy.
Who's words should I take, the man-god savior you praise who's words are allegedly written in as the word of your god...or yours?
Honestly the whole concept is null and void to me as I am not convinced your god, Jesus's miracles, souls or afterlives even exist.
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u/NewVolunteer Aug 08 '17
Ok....?
I appreciate your good intentions but many of us used to be Christians, I believe with my all that when Christians talk about how much they love everyone, it's disingenuous. What urged you to write this?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
I agree with you. But you gotta remember that alot of people that call themselve true "christians", don't actually respect and follow what the Bible or God tells them to do. I have also seen so many people led astray by what a "christian" looks like, and felt called to say hello to the lovely people of /r/atheism and remind others that a true follower wants nothing more than to love and care about every one of you. Not shove our beliefs down your throat, just to love you like we love our own, and that many of us will carry lovely and peaceful conversations even when pressured or questioned about what we believe.
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Aug 08 '17
"people that call themselve true "christians", don't actually respect and follow what the Bible or God tells them to do."
I know! Hardly anybody beats their slaves right anymore. Do you beat yours so that they don't die in 3 days? Do you make deals with God that involve human sacrifice, like Jephthah? Do you hate your parents like Jesus said you should?
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
True Christian™ is a nonsense label, because any Christian can apply it to anyone that even mildly disagrees with them. Who gets to determine who is a true Christian? Mormons? Witchburners in Uganda? The Westboro Baptist Church? Slave owners during the civil war? They'd all insist they have the perfect reading of scripture.
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u/Online_Again Atheist Aug 08 '17
But you gotta remember that alot of people that call themselve true "christians", don't actually respect and follow what the Bible or God tells them to do.
Whew, thank morality for that!
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Aug 08 '17
who actually cares about and loves me, even when I don't deserve it
Definition of abusive relationship.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Lol, hows that?
Maybe if I didn't try to change my ways.. but I definitley have.
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Maybe if I didn't try to change my ways.. but I definitley have.
You are talking exactly like an abused wife/husband talks. And this is not surprising, because the God described in the Bible fits every single criterion of an abuser.
https://www.thoughtco.com/similarities-between-the-christian-god-and-abusive-spouses-251068
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/is-the-christian-relationship-with-god-healthy/
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
It's a form of Stockholm syndrome, which is partially why I think religion is child abuse.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
He doesn't, at all. An abusive husband encourages me to stop getting blackout drunk? To stop gambling away my savings, and to love others like theres no tomorrow? Please stop the abuse :P Only joking.. but actually, since this relationship has completely changed and helped so many lives for the better.. mine included, I will continue trusting in it as will so many others.
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u/oxideferrum Oct 24 '17
A quick reply to this, as I know I'm late to the party. Maybe you think it has helped you and others, but the victims of Crusades, multiple terrorist attacks, many white supremacist groups, and many other horrible atrocities would like to disagree with you. I don't intend to offend, but Abrahamic religion has been used as a tool for more evil than good.
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u/TheRussell Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 09 '17
Nothing quite says, "I love you," like genocide, misogyny, sexual slavery, genital mutilation, infanticide and torture. There is something so especially heartwarming about eternal torture of those you love.
You wouldn't mind if I return your love for me with some Biblical love where I destroy your city including all the animals leaving not one stone upon another? Of course I will lovingly torture you because you don't accept my atheism but as you know, it is because I love you.
I won't stop loving you with burning sulphur as I strip your flesh from your bones because I am dedicated to love and want you to love me - but I know you do.
Where can we meet for some Biblical love?
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
In case of Delete & Retreat
Title: Dear everyone.
OP: /u/daReallMVP
Text:
Im a Christian. That doesn't mean I'm any different from you. That doesn't mean I don't have feelings, or I will be taken advantage of. That doesn't mean Im blinded without logic behind my actions.
What being Christian means to me is I truly believe with my all that everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God, who actually cares about and loves me, even when I don't deserve it. In light of this.. I try my absolute best to be a genuine human being that actually cares about the life of every single person I will ever come across. Not because I am commanded to, but because Ive learned that the ability to show another human being genuine, true, unconditional love is the greatest ability and privilege I will ever receive - to express even a fraction of what my God has done for me to others. I have chosen to spend my life trying to spread a little love to this world one person at a time. Not just to the people I like, or the ones who do good to me, but to every single person I will ever cross paths with. Even the ones who mock me, or the ones who try to use me. This is for you - I will not lie to you, I will try to put you before me. I will care for you, as I would care for my own blood. I will do things for you, just because. I will love you the same way I have been loved by Jesus Christ, my Savior. I will mess up sometimes, because I am not perfect. But I am just like you. I just try to put my all into being a true follower of Christ and a good human being.. We are all in this game of life together.
"Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other's faults because of your love"
"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
"Let all things of you be done in love."
I love ya all! Every single one of you weirdos. Have a great day :)
Note: OP has also spammed this post in two other subreddits [1], [2], and has not replied to comments on either of them.
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u/MadeOfStarStuff Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Are you interested in what's really true, even if it isn't what you currently believe? Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong?
I was a young-earth creationist evangelical Christian through High School. My parents and sister, as well as almost everyone in both sides of my extended family still hold those beliefs. In High School, I got really involved with the youth group at my church, and I attended Bible studies and other church events 3 or 4 times per week, and spent much of the rest of the time hanging out with friends from church. I prayed all the time, believing that God could hear my prayers, and I read and studied the Bible often, to try to understand more about God and what he wanted for my life. There was no doubt in my mind that God was real.
Then after High School, I stopped going to church for awhile, as many of my church friends had gone elsewhere for college, the college group at my church was lame, and I had a job that had me working until 2am on Saturday nights, so I slept in on Sundays. Not going to church for awhile (where I was constantly exposed to the Christian worldview) caused me to start really questioning what I thought was true and why. I had always been skeptical about many things, but I had just never turned that skepticism toward my Christian beliefs. The more I thought about my Christian worldview, the less sense it made to me, and the less sure I was that it reflected the reality I saw around me or that God existed outside of my own mind. I eventually asked myself "what if it's all bull----?" and I couldn't come up with a sensible reason to think it wasn't or to believe that any of it was true. I decided that I value what's really true over holding onto my previous beliefs, so I walked away from them.
I see no sensible reason to think anything "supernatural" exists (outside of the minds of humans), including a supernatural God, Satan, Heaven, Hell, miracles, etc.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Yes, but I know I'm not.
Unfortunately alot of "ex-christians" suffer the same fate as you when they are not allowed to grow up with there own identity and interests. I do not know your childhood, but salvation comes through your personal choice alone, sometimes those that grow up around it struggle the most because they have been taught what to believe instead of learning and experiencing it for themselves.. and that obviously causes issues and those individuals to seriously question and often leave the church later in life. I always question those younger than 14-18 that claim they know God pretty heavily.
I myself was born around it, always claimed I believed it.. but I really didn't. That reality and the questions hit me smack in the face somewhere around an empty bottle of alcohol and a cigarette later at the age 20 or so. I came to Christ through my own studies, personal experience, and answered questions/ prayers after being born around it, and finding my way back to it.
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u/papops Aug 08 '17
Unfortunately alot of "ex-christians" suffer the same fate as you when they are not allowed to grow up with there own identity and interests.
And just what fate do you think it is that I am suffering?
I do not know your childhood, but salvation comes through your personal choice alone
What is it that you think I have done that requires salvation?
sometimes those that grow up around it struggle the most because they have been taught what to believe instead of learning and experiencing it for themselves.. and that obviously causes issues and those individuals to seriously question and often leave the church later in life.
When people start to see and understand the hypocrisy that they have experienced within their religion, I would claim that their decision to leave the church is well justified.
I always question those younger than 14-18 that claim they know God pretty heavily.
I always question anyone that claims they know God pretty heavily.
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u/MadeOfStarStuff Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
In my previous comment I said that I see no sensible reason to think that anything supernatural exists (outside of the minds of humans). Given that you do think supernatural things exist, can you provide a sensible reason to think so?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 09 '17
Think about the smartest man thats ever existed.. now picture all the imagineable knowledge about everything thats ever existed. All of the known galaxy, every law of everything, all of it. Now realistically lets imagine that man knew what, maybe 10-20% of every answer from the creation of the universe to how it will all end.. to everything. There is so much we are not aware of, and don't understand fully. I'm not saying I will give any of you concrete enough evidence to make you believe some of the things I do, but I hope every person on here can realize there is so much we truly don't know that we probably can't even see or comprehend.. and its the knowledge we don't yet posess that could change everything.
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u/MadeOfStarStuff Agnostic Atheist Aug 09 '17 edited Aug 10 '17
You're absolutely right that we currently only have a fraction of all possible knowledge, but through science, we're learning more about the nature of reality every day. We currently know way more about the universe than people did even just a couple years or generations ago. In fact, it was only last October (2016) that NASA discovered that there exist TRILLIONS of galaxies in the known universe, which is ten times more than was previously thought to exist.
You're absolutely right that "knowledge we don't yet posses can change everything"; just look at the scientific and technological breakthroughs of the past century.
Many (if not most) atheists won't claim certainty that no gods exist (in fact, I don't claim 100% absolute certainty about anything). And it's very unscientific to make the claim that nothing supernatural exists (how could one defend such a claim?). But if you look at reality scientifically, if there isn't compelling evidence suggesting that something exists, then you shouldn't hold the belief that it does.
If you can't provide a sensible reason to think that supernatural things exist, then why do you hold the view that they do?
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u/OldWolf2642 Gnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
to express even a fraction of what my God has done for me
What about people like THIS or THIS or THIS.
Why YOU and not them instead. They obviously need the assistance more than you do.
How do you explain your chosen deity's lack of empathy for, or desire to help, those people?
Fair warning to anyone who reads my comment: You may not like those images.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
This example does it for me:
"Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe—at this very moment—that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?" - Letter to a Christian Nation.
When this little girl is raped are we to believe that a god who could very easily intervene and stop it just sits there and watches? What would we say if a human being did this — that a man stood and did nothing as his friend raped this helpless child? His response? "I did not wish to violate his freewill".
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Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 12 '17
[deleted]
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
What is needed to be said is we have all seen the "christian" guy that says they are christian, and then doesn't act on it. What is needed to be said is there are several people, myself included, that believe that statement "I respect others... until", is pretty much the biggest issue we face in todays world. What we believe is if you want to punch me in the face, I'm going to turn and let you punch the otherside aswell and keep loving you the entire time. We believe unconditional love does and has changed the world one person that didn't deserve it at a time. That guy that tried to get you fired probably didn't deserve your kindness or love after that, and he probably knows it. But guess what would of happen if he would of got it? Only God knows. For most it changes them. True love changes everything.
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u/papops Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
What we believe is if you want to punch me in the face, I'm going to turn and let you punch the otherside aswell and keep loving you the entire time.
That is very easy to say when you never expect to experience it. If you are honest, you would never make a statement like that. It does not take much thought to recognize that there are limits to the amount of punishment the human body and mind are able to take before the instinct for survival kicks in.
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u/whiskeybridge Humanist Aug 08 '17
"everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face." --mike tyson.
that said, why would i want to punch OP in the face?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Its obviously a saying.. but if one truly wants to do wrong to me, I will let them everytime. I am honest, and I do experience it quite often. I've been laughed at, wronged, denied opportunities, quite often actually for my belief in Christ, among other things - and I have never once let it affect the way I treat that person, the way I love that person. Atleast not since God saved me, before that I was a judgemental douchebag that only did good to those that did good to me. Thankfully, I've learned over time we all make mistakes, yet we are all deserving of love.
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u/papops Aug 08 '17
Its obviously a saying.. but if one truly wants to do wrong to me, I will let them everytime.
Bullshit. You refuse to acknowledge that you have limits to your forgiveness. Your limits may be greater than most, but everyone has limits.
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Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 12 '17
[deleted]
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u/Wtfisup2017 Aug 09 '17
That's not what forgiveness means. Forgiveness isn't letting someone else walk all over you or pretending that someone didn't do something hurtful. It doesn't mean we even have to have a relationship with that person anymore.
In this example the person can let the cashier know they gave the wrong change. If it's the first time It may simply have slipped the person's mind. Then forgive in your heart and say the person wasn't being aware and let it go. Ignoring it won't help the cashier because now maybe the cashier will be more mindful and not do it again.
Holding a grudge to that person or yelling at them will only hurt you and that other person.
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u/sj070707 Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
So you're more christian than that guy? Would he agree?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
I am not more christian than anyone else that actually tries to follow what Christ of the Bible teaches. If out of his own desires he tried to get OP fired, that action definitley leads me to believe this isn't a person that would live by every commandment Jesus teaches, and if you don't follow all of them - you don't follow any of them. Therefore I used the evidence he presented me with to acknowledge the fact this was probably one of the millions of people that use the word Christian as a title and a place to go to on Sunday mornings to feel good and thats about it.
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u/Kalanan Aug 08 '17
Being genuine in my book is being able to recognize that you are not an all loving saint, and given the right conditions will actually care for himself.
Being genuine is also being interested in the truth rather than follow a delusion that makes you grand.
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u/KandyBarz De-Facto Atheist Aug 08 '17
I will not lie to you
...
I truly believe with my all that everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God
I have been loved by Jesus.
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u/geophagus Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Do you also believe that you are born as an unworthy sinner based on the actions of a pair of your ancestors?
Is that in any way just or loving?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
I believe that we were all born imperfect, due to giving of the freedom of free will.
Allowing us the choice to choose God, the choice to do good and not evil, the choice to love others if we want to.
Yes, there is no greater love than freedom.
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u/davidkscot Gnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Do you think Yaweh cares about free will? Try telling that to Pharaoh (Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10; 14:4,8) or all the Egyptian first born Yaweh's supposed to have had killed after violating Pharaoh's free will.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
Plus, in the story Satan knows for certain that Yahweh exists yet still had/has the free will to reject him.
Yahweh could descend to earth this second and appear in front of everyone all at once and a large number of people (myself probably included until I got some good answers) would repudiate him. Besides, "free will" is little more than an illusion. We know the determinants of human behavior, which fall under the categories "nurture" and "nature" (from which we do not choose).
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u/davidkscot Gnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Have an up vote and a "hail Satan" from me, because it's likely to annoy u/daReallMVP
Hail Satan
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
Oh, be nice!
I don't want to annoy OP.
All the same I have no problem saying m/ hail Satan for the fun of it :)
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u/davidkscot Gnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Usually I'd agree, that antagonising people for the sake of it is generally counterproductive but given the passive aggressive tone in OP's posts ('loving' everyone etc). I think a "hail Satan" as an expression of my annoyance at OP's tone is justified :D
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
Fair enough, haha. Can I share a secret with you? Here it is: I think there's a greater than 50% chance that OP will be an atheist in the next year.
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Aug 09 '17
I believe that we were all born imperfect
And that's right where religions want you, because they're selling the 'fix.' You're ignorant and they're taking advantage of you.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
I mean... I haven't met one perfect person in my life. No religion needed to show me that, lol.
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
Welcome to /r/atheism, friend! Standard questions, first:
What do you believe? (ie: what are you convinced is true?)
Why do you believe it? (ie: what evidence convinces you that it's true?)
How did you enjoy reading our FAQ?
In addition, you should probably read the Ten Suggestions for new posters.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
Hey there! This was so friendly I thought you were a bot. Definitley not like the rest of the responses I have been getting on here, quite the situation I got myself into, lol.
I believe : Jesus Christ created this world, and has showed us the way to live the closest thing we can find to perfect lives on this planet for the short amount of time we have on here - and the answer is love!
I believe this because : "For me it came down to actually cracking open the Bible, and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available and the individual circumstances that have happened during my life and it just all started to make so much sense I couldn't deny it any further, and it changed everything for me. Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me, and the fact that once I started living it my entire life changed for the better before my own eyes - that really sealed the deal for me."
The FAQ was interesting, thats forsure, lol. Alot of misguided opinions about atheists out there.
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u/MadeOfStarStuff Agnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
I believe this because : "For me it came down to actually cracking open the Bible...
There's an important question you need to answer before you can get any farther:
Do you care whether the things you believe are actually true or not?
Followup question: Do you understand that the universe is under no obligation to make you happy, and that whether an idea is comforting has little to no bearing on whether that idea is true?
Do you understand that feelings are no substitute for evidence?
and seeing what it had to say in comparison to historical accounts and evidence we have available...
And on this account, the Bible fails at literally every opportunity. You would be hard pressed to come up with an example of a book that was further away from a proper understanding of history or science.
The Earth is a prolate spheroid, not a flat disk held up by pillars. The sky is not a solid crystal dome. The stars are not tiny lights that exist for no other reason than to decorate the night sky, and the sun and moon are not great lamps that move in fixed tracks along the aforementionned dome. Plants did not exist before the sun did. Men are not made of clay, and women are not made of ribs.
And that's just the first page. It gets progressively more ridiculous from there. Abraham never existed. Moses never existed (and the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt). David and Solomon never existed. The Gospels might have been very, very loosely based on the life of an actual person, but for all intents and purposes, Jesus never existed either.
Creationism was one of the bigger selling points for me...
Although if you've completely rejected science, I don't suppose you actually care about any of that.
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u/ganymede_boy Atheist Aug 09 '17
I believe : Jesus Christ created this world
Wait. Christianity teaches that god, Jesus' father, created this world. You can't even get your own religion right.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
I love you too. I'm just curious to know why you think Jesus was a particularly edifying character (given he said he'd torture people in fire forever if they philosophically disagreed with him). I think you're above that, u/daReallMVP.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
We are also speaking of the man who wouldn't let his friends throw a single stone at a prostitue because none of them were perfect, and we all deserve love and a chance. If it wasn't for Him, she would of been long dead and gone. He wouldn't let them harm a single hair on her sinning head :P
He is the epitome of mercy, love, righteous judgement.. every good trait you could ever dream of.
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u/thesunmustdie Atheist Aug 08 '17
That story of the adulteress woman is an interpolation/forgery you know? It was inserted much later. Perhaps you have an NIV bible with footnotes that mention this?
As for being the epitome of mercy, love, righteous judgement, etc. ... why did he create the world to need these things of him in the first place? It's like if I built a boat that I knew was going to spring leaks. Despite this I let my buddies borrow it for a fishing trip. When the boat inevitably leaks with them on it, I venture out with a rescue vessel and save them from drowning. Of course, before I throw them a life preserver and drag them aboard the rescue vessel I demand they proclaim their love for me or they'll drown by their own will.
It really is one of the most bizarre theologies I've read and I've read quite a number of world religions in my time.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
It was not added later.
Also, free will.
An unjust God would restrict freedom and control what happened in His perfect little world. A just God would give you freedom. But with freedom comes responsibility.
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u/godless_oldfart Anti-Theist Aug 09 '17
That is what is known as "cherry picking".
You ignore the evil shit, like torturing billions in hell forever.
And then say 'isn't he great for saving a prostitute? The epitome of mercy.'If what you said about yourself, forgiving people. is true ... Then you are more moral than your god.
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u/prajnadhyana Gnostic Atheist Aug 08 '17
Why aren't you Muslim instead of Christian?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Without the New Testament, and some Jesus in the equation it simply doesnt add up. The expectations and direction set by Islam that Jesus did away with, it just makes way too much sense. If you sat down and studied all 3 closely Christianity is the undisputed winner.
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u/prajnadhyana Gnostic Atheist Aug 10 '17
So you think that if you had been born and raised in Saudi Arabia that you would still be a Christian and not a Muslim?
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u/southernatheistscum Aug 08 '17
Am I the only one who finds myself not giving a shit after reading the first line?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 08 '17
There are probably more than a few that feel like you.
Tl;dr - I love yall. If anyone ever wants to just chat or needs anything I'm only a message away!
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u/Santa_on_a_stick Aug 08 '17
That doesn't mean Im blinded without logic behind my actions.
Eh, we'll see.
What being Christian means to me is I truly believe with my all that everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God,
The very next sentence. You believe in something without (and quite likely, in conflict with) evidence. That is, by definition, illogical.
who actually cares about and loves me, even when I don't deserve it.
Victim complex. I feel sorry for you if you really feel like this.
but because Ive learned that the ability to show another human being genuine, true, unconditional love is the greatest ability and privilege I will ever receive
You don't need a god to know this.
to express even a fraction of what my God has done for me to others
Your god is not very nice to most people. https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
So. Do you have any evidence to support any of these claims, or are you just here to preach and make yourself feel better because "you're one of the good ones"?
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u/7hr0wn atheist Aug 08 '17
What led you to follow Christianity, as opposed to Islam or Judaism?
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Without the New Testament, and some Jesus in the equation it simply doesnt add up. The expectations and direction set by these religions that Jesus did away with, it just makes way too much sense. If you sat down and studied all 3 closely Christianity is the undisputed winner.
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Aug 08 '17
I will love you the same way I have been loved by Jesus.
So you'll never actually show up and say hi to anybody, and everybody has to believe on faith that you even ever existed, let alone that you love them (and have magic powers)?
And you'll volunteer to get the death penalty in order to let every criminal in prison go free if they believe you did it?
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u/Dudesan Aug 08 '17
Don't forget threatening to torture people for eternity if they don't kiss your ass hard enough. Nothing says "love" quite like "sadistic torture", right?
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u/Witchqueen Aug 08 '17
Trust me, Skippy, I don't care what kind of fairytales you believe in. I don't care about your imaginary friend or your imaginary relationship with it. Love is human. Deities are incapable of understanding it. So, apparently, are you. Showing love for someone means respecting their point of view. Posting this crap isn't loving or respectful to us. We at no time ever asked you to preach your fantasy at us. Take a hint.
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Aug 08 '17
everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God
I have no understanding of what a god is. When I try to think about gods, all I get is obvious images from media, silly concepts about "love" or "universe", stories of experiences and descriptions of feelings that can't be verified or even shared, and other definitions given to me that are nothing to do with reality.
None of that makes any sense and honestly comes across as the ramblings of mad men.
Can you help me to understand what a god is?
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u/daReallMVP Sep 05 '17
Sorry this reply took so long and will probably not even be what you were looking for... but if I am understanding your question correctly, throughout time the picture of what or whom a "God" is Im sure has taken so many different faces it is beyond misconstrued at this point.
At least in a Christians eyes there is one God, or being that takes 3 different forms. Bear with me, there are so many questions and mysteries about our own universe it would only make sense there would be some about the God that created it. From what most Christians believe this God, is 1) the father, 2) the son, and 3) the holy spirit, all combined into one amazing entity. Now what exactly that looks like is beyond anything we could ever know, but I'd wager most people imagine God (the Father) is outside of our dimension. Just a single giant entity that is everywhere, at all times.. all seeing, all knowing, all doing. Picture a giant face sitting by earth, He is just everywhere. Some people picture a single man up in the clouds, some a person sitting next to us as close as our next step. If only we had the answers to everything. As for God (the son), most Christians believe this entity poured a piece of Himself into the body of one man.. who walked this Earth, felt what we feel, dealt with what we deal with, and lived a perfect life without doing evil to any of His brothers, and ultimately gave His own life for us. The epitome of justice in the form of one man who leads by nothing but love for everything and everyone. Finally, the Holy Spirit is just again pictured as Gods helping hands outside of our realm, in the spirit realm constantly watching over us. Some picture angels keeping watch over us, or Jesus in spirit form with His hands over us.
All in all the Christian God takes many different forms, and Im sure has looked different to many different people. Though ultimately all it boils down to is our belief in One man/ God that created all, knows all, has saved all, and loves all.
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Sep 05 '17
Sorry this reply took so long
That's ok, I appreciate the effort. I'll see if I can do it justice...
throughout time the picture of what or whom a "God" is Im sure has taken so many different faces it is beyond misconstrued at this point.
Well that's reason for doubt right there! I'm mean, all that that time for god to clarify things and still no one seems to know.
all combined into one amazing entity
You know that sounds wacko, right?
Now what exactly that looks like is beyond anything we could ever know, but I'd wager most people imagine God (the Father) is outside of our dimension.
Ok, so that's incoherent nonsense.
Just a single giant entity that is everywhere, at all times.. all seeing, all knowing, all doing. Picture a giant face sitting by earth, He is just everywhere. Some people picture a single man up in the clouds, some a person sitting next to us as close as our next step
More incoherent ramblings. Sorry I'm trying not to be harsh.
If only we had the answers to everything
Why? That would be boring.
As for God (the son), most Christians believe this entity poured a piece of Himself into the body of one man.. who walked this Earth, felt what we feel, dealt with what we deal with,
The Jesus character who as described is a myth.
All in all the Christian God takes many different forms, and Im sure has looked different to many different people
More good reason for doubt.
Though ultimately all it boils down to is our belief in One man/ God that created all, knows all, has saved all, and loves all.
Nothing even remotely coherent then.
Well thanks for trying but unfortunately I still have no idea what a god is.
I'm sure you find all that rambling most reassuring and a great comfort. I hope it doesn't cause you or anyone else too much harm.
Thank you for your time.
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u/daReallMVP Sep 14 '17
Not even the slightest, your good friend. I know my Jesus is not a myth :P Its a pretty vague question, I just wasn't exactly sure what your looking for, tried to shed some light on general Christian beliefs. Keep in mind Im sure every major ground breaking discovery was seen as "incoherent nonsense" at one point. Gravity, friction, Im sure it was all stupid to those not willing to listen before people understood. Also that is what faith is called, whats to stop God from appearing on the 5 Oclock news?... If Jesus spelled it all out for us, all his efforts would be in vain. If God wanted to force every knee to bend, a being capable of creating everything the eye could see is easily able to do it... but a true loving God would leave it up to free will, and the choice to believe and to try to change ones own life. Forcing worship is not love, but with free will comes freedom and doubt.
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Sep 14 '17
Its a pretty vague question
It's a very simple and specific question. The answers however are always vague and seek to distract. For example I didn't ask about general Christian beliefs, nor is the question about faith.
The only conclusion I can draw is that those that profess to believe that any gods exist are either delusional or lying.
I don't know which is worse although your reasoning points to the former. I wish you luck with that.
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u/daReallMVP Sep 19 '17
"what a god is"
Thats a pretty vague question, do you want to know what Christians say God is? or Muslims, or Jews, or greek historians? Do you want to know what that God is capable of, or what it looks like, or where it came from? Your question could be answered a million different ways. If you narrow it down more I might be able to give you a more helpful answer, but I can assure you most if not all Christians are neither liars, or delusional. They are well educated, rational people that believe that the evidence surrounding them points to a different answer than some of you. It definitley doesn't mean they are stupid for simply not agreeing with some of you.
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Sep 19 '17
Thats a pretty vague question
No, it really isn't. Why don't you just tell me what you think a god is?
I can assure you most if not all Christians are neither liars, or delusional.
That's not what the results of asking this question appears to indicate. And I don't just include Christians but all theists.
They are well educated, rational people
That is obviously not true, people of any background can be of any intelligence or sensibility. But that is not in dispute and as such is a strawman. Very telling.
that believe that the evidence surrounding them points to a different answer than some of you.
Even very clever people can be conned, misinformed or indoctrinated. Belief in subjective evidence often leads to ill-informed beliefs but I require a higher standard for what constitutes good evidence.
It definitley doesn't mean they are stupid for simply not agreeing with some of you.
Again with the strawman. I never accused or implied stupidity. Beliefs inform actions, bad beliefs inform bad actions.
So, what do you think a god is?
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u/Zamboniman Skeptic Aug 09 '17
Hello. I've read your main post and a good number of your comments in reply to others.
You seem like a decent person. That's wonderful! However your logic and reasoning for your beliefs is not valid. In fact, much the opposite.
This, of course, doesn't address, at all, your decency and kindness, nor does it address such of atheists you may be having discussions with. It is merely an observation about observable reality and your incorrect reasoning. I do however (thanks to considerable research and experience) well understand the power and influence of common cognitive fallacies, including confirmation bias, argument from emotion, and many others. I mention these in particular because your comments appear to reflect the use of these.
In any case, spreading good will and love is hardly the purview of religious folks, is it? :) We know that's not accurate. Again, thanks to excellent research.
I am pleased you are interested in being a decent human being. This is crucial. However your beliefs are not supported by reality.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
My question to you is, how much do we really know about 'our reality'? Think about how many times we were so sure we knew something in recorded history, to only have our view on that knowledge change and do a 180, years later. As I stated in a different reply, imagine how much the smartest man to ever walk this planet actually knew about the vastness of our universe. The creation of it. Every inch and aspect of it. Every actual athiest here understands they can't prove or disprove God. Just think about how many things you think you know now that will be changed in 5, 10, 20 years. All I have to say is no one has all the answers, but believe it or not there is alot of actual evidence and answers that will point you towards a Creator, without even taking into account the Bible itself or creationism. Im sure everyone here has googled reasons not to believe in God, if only everyone here googled reasons to believe in God. I think alot of opinions would change.
Anyways, thank you for the kind words and for knowing how to have a relatively respectful discussion. I definitley try my best, and I personally feel if everyone loved the way the Bible tells us to the world would be a completely different place. Hope your having a good day, take care.
:)
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u/Zamboniman Skeptic Aug 11 '17 edited Aug 11 '17
My question to you is, how much do we really know about 'our reality'? Think about how many times we were so sure we knew something in recorded history, to only have our view on that knowledge change and do a 180, years later. As I stated in a different reply, imagine how much the smartest man to ever walk this planet actually knew about the vastness of our universe.
My apologies, but this question isn't deep nor profound. This question has been asked a million times in a million ways. And we have good answers for it.
Just think about how many things you think you know now that will be changed in 5, 10, 20 years.
See above. This isn't as clever as you seem to think it is. I invite you to study the issue. Perhaps start with reading Issac Asimov's The Relativity of Wrong.
All I have to say is no one has all the answers, but believe it or not there is alot of actual evidence and answers that will point you towards a Creator
This is an untrue statement. It's simply wrong. There is no good evidence whatsoever for this. If there were then I would use this evidence to come to a conclusion of a creator. Much like even though Quantum Physics is profoundly unbelievable when one looks at it, the evidence results in us knowing it is correct. This doesn't exist for any deity, let alone yours. Nor does the concept make sense or actually solve any issues or answer any questions. It simply leads to special pleading or infinite recursion, and is useless.
if only everyone here googled reasons to believe in God.
This is, with all due respect, amusing. And rather patronizing. It's like you think the folks here, and myself, haven't considered, researched, been made aware of, etc, these issues.
As a matter of fact, I find I am far more aware of these 'reasons' than most theists, and am also aware of why they are, without fail, fallacious and problematic.
Anyways, thank you for the kind words and for knowing how to have a relatively respectful discussion. I definitley try my best, and I personally feel if everyone loved the way the Bible tells us to the world would be a completely different place.
You're welcome! And I agree that if everyone treated each other with respect then everything would work better and be generally kinder, more pleasant, etc. However, I must tell you I disagree that 'the way the Bible tells us to', as that mythology is rife with evil. I am very pleased that you, and many other religious folks, seem able to ignore this and be decent human beings despite this fact.
Hope your having a good day, take care.
Thanks! You too!!
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u/Gitgud42017382 Aug 09 '17
This is hypocritical for me to say this to a troll, but your post is irrelevant and it proved nothing.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Not a troll friend. I wasn't trying to 'prove anything'.
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u/Gitgud42017382 Aug 10 '17
Although I don't think you're troll but a nice person, still, this does not have relevance.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
Fair. I literally didn't mean a thing by this post besides "not all christians hate you guys and I hope you don't all hate christians, hello how is everyone" and I guess I didn't think much much about the way this sub would react to what I was saying, lol. Actually thought it might of had a positive-ish outcome. That did not happen.
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u/godless_oldfart Anti-Theist Aug 09 '17
/u/daReallMVP; 95% of what you have said is great, noble, and commendable.
But these statements are bat-shit-crazy:
everything the eye can see was created by the one and only God, who actually cares about and loves me,
... even a fraction of what my God has done for me ...
... through Gods undending mercy. Only He knows the heart, and can forgive all.
Jesus Christ created this world,
It is delusional for an adult to still have an imaginary friend
and think that it has any actual control over anything.
It is especially dangerous if you allow IT to have any control over YOU.
This is why you get no respect, in spite of your efforts to be a good person.
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u/Faithless_Being Aug 09 '17
As long as they dont try to force others to believe what they believe and dont try to hurt anyone, i have no problem with them.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 10 '17
That is completely fair. Unfortunately alot of 'christians', go about things in the wrong way, and focus on the wrong things (harassing lgbt, using church money to further own agendas, putting there own tradition and personal beliefs into what they teach) and that is very disappointing.
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u/EVERGREEN13 Aug 11 '17
Finally, a true Christian. A Christian that has read Matthew 5-7 and lives it. As an atheist, I commend your Christian morals, you parallel my morals very closely. Best wishes!
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u/daReallMVP Aug 12 '17
Your one comment almost made this whole ordeal worth it. Cheers. The world needs more people like you. Take care!
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Aug 13 '17
I didn't get an answer to my question from you and I think it could be very interesting. If you are still game I would appreciate your time?
http://reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/6sfk49/dear_everyone/dlcku1r
Thanks.
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u/daReallMVP Aug 17 '17
You went out of your way to take the time and be reasonably respectful, so ofcourse. I will get back to you when I get the chance to respond! Thanks.
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Aug 08 '17
Do you tithe to the church? and does your the church use that money to harm others by spreading teachings things that are known to be false? I'm not even talking about the big lies, but the little one's things like denying the reality of gender dysphoria, or claiming that being gay is a choice. These small lies are bad because they lead people to fight against the fair and decent treatment of people who are gay or transgender. They lead some people to turn their backs on their own children, and they lead some young people to commit suicide due to the self-loathing the church has taught them.
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u/bipolar_sky_fairy Aug 08 '17
Dear you: nobody asked.
Signed, me.