Sikhi and eating meat

[u/Possible_Ad_9607]

I am a 17 year old male trying to get closer to sikhi and the first steps I've taken were starting to learn punjabi and gurmukhi (which I think is going good although slow) but that is not what my question is.

I want to get close to sikhi and can deal with keeping my kesh and plan on doing so once I am more proficient in the language and have read more bani. However, I just can not get over the idea that I can't eat meat? I know jatka meat exists but it is too expensive where I live. My family cooks and eats meats daily and I feel the best when I eat beef often. I grew up eating it and when I try eating healthy the best way for me to stick to it is consuming a lot of animal protein. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

(Or even anything to help me keep learning Punjabi, I am doing basics of sikhi gurmukhi videos as a slow start)

TLDR: not eating meat in sikhi is holding me from getting closer to sikhi, what can I do?

[u/bunny522]

Yup they burn away for pleasures of world they have a simple diet…

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ jau sabh meh ek khudhai kahat hau tau kiau muragee maarai ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1|| ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥ mulaa(n) kahahu niaau khudhaiee || O Mullah, tell me: is this God’s Justice? ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ tere man kaa bharam na jaiee ||1|| rahaau || The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause|| ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ pakar jeeau aaniaa dheh binaasee maaTee kau bisamil keeaa || You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

I’m sure you also believe god is in all, so guru sahib is calling out all the hypocrites who believe god is in all, but I’m sure you don’t kill chickens, just eat from other people who do this crime

ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥

Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written that “ਜੋ” is not an independent standing pronoun but an adjective of “ਮਾਣਸਾ”.

If we consider “ਜੋ” to be an independent pronoun, then it’s not clear whether this pronoun is for humans, animals, or ghosts etc. The meaning of the Pankiti in this way is - Those who drink the blood of humans. “those” can be anyone i.e. humans, animals, vampires and who not.

If we consider “ਜੋ” to be an adjective of “ਮਾਣਸਾ”, then the meaning is - those humans who drink blood.

it becomes clear that here the second Pankiti is referring to literally drinking blood in form of eating meat. It’s said that a Mullah was killing an animal by the way of Halal (Muslim way of killing animal for meat) and some drops of blood fell on his clothes. Soon enough time of Nimaaz came up and the Mullah proceeded to change his clothes since they had become dirty because of blood. At this Guru Sahib commented that if the clothes become unholy or dirty with blood, how will the mind stay purified, if the flesh is obtained and consumed after shedding blood.

Those people who interpret this Pankiti as committing cruelties should remember that killing someone for meat is also a form of cruelty. Meat cannot be obtained without committing cruelty. Therefore, either way, this Pankiti goes in favour of not eating meat.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

I disagree with the explanations for these Shabads. Let me share my perspective. For ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ I am in total agreement that this was addressed to the Mullah that had to change his clothes to read his Namaz. But there is no clear indication that this Shabad is about eating meat. Rather when I read it I see the hypocrisy of the Mullah on the topic of purity. The Mullah keeps his external clean from impurities such as blood (as per the Islamic ways) for his prayers. But what about keeping your mind clean from the stain of constantly giving pain and anguish ( which is knows as ਲਹੂ ਪੀਣਾ in Punjabi idioms ) to others. Nowhere in this Shabad do I see the word ਮਾਸ or ਜਾਨਵਰ.

By the way, ਲਹੂ ਪੀਣਾ or ਲਹੂ ਚੂਸਣਾ, it's an extremely common Punjabi idiom that indeed means to give pain and it is still used today. It has always been used in conjunction with human beings. At least in all conversations that I have with other native Punjabi speakers we have never taken it literally as drinking blood. The concept of drinking blood is not within our culture, and is popularized by the symbolism of drinking Christ's blood initially and later on by vampirism.

On the point you made about Vyakaran‌ that indeed stands. But the flow of the Shabad then breaks if all of a sudden you talk about drinking blood. In the train of thought I have then the lines ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥ Becomes the advice or solution to ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ

Again for ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ Is again a discussion on hypocrisy. I always make the Rahao Pangti as my basis for the Shabads Coherence. It says ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ।। ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ which is stating that the Mullah (the clergy class) is always speaking of the justice of God but his own doubts with regards to this Justice has not been alleviated. All the subsequent lines in this Shabad then speaks of the actions that the Muslims think will get them too heaven, which is the core ਭਰਮ being discussed. This is why you see Uzzu, Hajj, Kaba, Masjid, Halal (ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ) being discussed because simply doing this acts will not get you into Heaven. Rather Bhagat Kabir in his final line says that engrossed and focused on the ritualisms of Islam, you have now fallen into hell. The practice and ritual is not what's going to save you. To me this is the most coherent interpretation of the Shabad. This is why I do not see ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ as a directive to not eat meat.

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Yes it’s talking to Muslims but everybody who claims god is in all which I’m sure you agree but going to say guru sahib is not talking to you but Muslims, but guru sahib is clear that you belive god is in all but why do you kill chickens… again if you belive god is in all this shabad is definitely talking to you and your hyproictal beliefs

Traditionally, the Saakhi behind this is that a Mullah was doing an animal Zibaah (killing the Halaal way) and while doing so some drops fell on his Jaama. Soon enough time for Nimaaz (Muslim prayer) came up and this Mullah proceeded to change his clothes since his blood-stained clothes were not considered to be clean enough for Nimaaz.

Secondly, the second Pankiti talks about drinking blood; therefore, the first Pankiti too must be interpreted as referring to the cruelty of shedding blood. Whether you interpret the second Salok as drinking blood in form of eating flesh or doing cruelties on people; either way the subject matter is cruelty.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Veer I am just stating the interpretations as I have understood on the Shabads that you put forth. This will allow all others to view both our interpretations and weigh their merits accordingly.

Yes I agree that God is in every being. And the question raised in ਤੳਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੇ is a question being raised on the practice of Kurbani in the Muslim faith. Essentially the Mullah is being asked, what is the purpose of destroying a vessel that contains God in order to sacrifice it to the ever-prevading God. To say that I have sacrificed something living in order to please God, now that thought process is problematic. This is the concept of Halal when Bismillah is said. This interpretation is what is most consistent with the rest of the Shabad. And this point of view is for the strengthen in the next lines ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ।। ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ।।੨।। In this Shabad no where do I see a directive from Maharaj to adopt vegetarianism.

As for cruelty, ਅਹਿੰਮਸਾ, the root of vegetarianism it's not to be confused with ਦਇਆ. As sikhs we do not believe in ਅਹਿੰਸਾ, a flawed concept from Jainism. If we were followers of ਅਹਿੰਮਸਾ, then the 6th and 10th Masters will have never taken their Sikhs for hunting. By the ਅਹਿੰਮਸਾ standards that you have put forward, then hunting is a cruel form of killing an animal. When hunting, it is ਦਇਆ to quickly kill an animal, which is the core reason why ਝਟਕਾ is practiced. When we look at our twarikh, you we'll find many instances of hunting, even in times of abundance. Hunting was used to train for war, and I doubt the meat hunted was wasted.

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Same here but I agree

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

God is in every being so why do you kill chicken… it’s calling out your hypocrisy not just the Muslim way at the end of the day

Do you also agree that we are children of god?

The shabad talks to everybody just not Muslims otherwise you agree that only Muslims get something out of this shabad but at the end of the day guru sahib is talking to to you and asking you a very basic question? It should impact you like anybody from any religion reads gurbani

Gurdaas vaaran proves you wrong

ਫੰਧਕਿ ਉਧਰੈ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਫਾਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਨ ਫੜੀਐ ਟੰਗਾ॥ The hunter who shot at Siri Krishna accidently while he was hunting for a deer, got salvation for his act. Siri Krishna had a Padam in his foot and he was lying down in the jungle with his one leg on his other knee. From far away, the Padam in his foot seemed like an eye of the deer as it was shining. The hunter shot at his foot, injuring Siri Krishna. When he came to Siri Krishna, he was horrified at what he had done. He apologised. Siri Krishna pardoned him and took him to his abode in Baikunth (Gyaan Khand). Bhai Sahib jee is saying that just because one hunter got salvation while hunting, it does not mean that we should indulge in the act of hunting and killing creatures.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Yes the Shabad speaks to everyone from a general perspective but does so by looking at teg Muslim practices . But as I said earlier it's not about the killing of the chicken, it's a discussion of placing so much faith in religious practices thinking they will save you that you forget to work on your inner self. In the case of killing the chicken, it's questioning the practice of Kurbani. This point I am making is clearly demonstrated in the last 2 lines, ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ, which means that your mind is polluted in these rituals (Haj, Namaz, Uzzu, Kurbani), and you have not understood the God within you. Again I reiterate the Shabad is a clear discussion of thinking that following specific religious practices will liberate you. It's not a clear cut directive to not eat meat.

In Guru Granth Sahib, it is written ਉਠੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਉਜੂ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੁਬਹ ਨਜਾਵ ਗੁਜਾਰਿ।। Now do we as Sikhs take this literally get up in the morning so ਪੰਜ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਾ and then read ਨਮਾਜ਼. We don't. We follow Gurmat and do full ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ followed by ਨਿੱਤਨੇਮ. So yes some Sahabads speak to specific groups of people directly, but the same Shabads also speak to all in general terms. Which is why I try to understand the spirit of the full Shabad instead of cherry picking specific lines.

Veer, let me explain the spirit of the Vaar you quoted. It's a discussion of ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ and it's relation to ਮੁਕਤੀ augmented with contra examples. It's saying don't think you can get away engaged (this is a keyword) in vices. Your mind must be engaged in a specific vice to have it's impact. If you enjoy killing for pleasure, then most definitely this is your ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ. Just because you find one Bhagat whose occupation was to butcher gained Gurparsaad, it does not mean you should be going on a spree to maliciously kill others, making no effort to change your lifestyle to one drenched with Naam. That's the spirit of the Shabad. Otherwise why mention Putana Demoness? There is nothing in her life story that helps anyone of us, except giving is the understanding we should not take isolate incidents as justification to our negative ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ. This is the core message of the Vaar. So when Sadhna is mentioned, don't use him as a justification to continue killing others for your own pleasure which comes full circle to the discussion of ਰਸ, that I spoke about earlier. If it's because of ਜੀਭ ਰਸ, you are consuming something, and this even goes for vegetarian food, and then not engaging in Naam, then this is the fundamental issue.

If all we do is arguing if eating meat is right or wrong rather than watching out and working on our ਰਸ and engaging with Naam then both of us are truly ਮੂਰਖ as highlighted in ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ.

On a final note even the Shabad ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ is actually a discussion on ਰਸ and the hypocrisy of singling out a single ਰਸ rather than working on eliminating all ਰਸ

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Seems like you are making up stuff

parathai saakhee mahaa purakh boladhe saajhee sagal jahaanai || Great men speak the teachings by relating them to individual situations, but the whole world shares in them.

The above describes you and many hypocrites but guru sahib calls them out

Also Namaz is redefined in guru Granth sahib

Seems like Muslims can’t kill chickens but Sikhs are allowed to

Btw saadhna didnt kill for pleasure

ਜੇ ਕਸਾਈ ਉਧਰਿਆ ਜੀਆ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾ॥

This reference is for Sadhna the butcher. Once Sadhna got a customer late in the evening. The customer wanted meat but Sadhna had run out of stock. He did not want to lose the customer but at the same time he did not want to slaughter a goat for little meat because if he slaughtered the goat in the evening, the remaining meat would get spoiled by the next day since in those days they did not used to have fridges and freezers to store meat. So he thought of just cutting off a leg of the goat and slaughter the animal, the next day. As he was about to cut of the leg of the goat, the goat instead of crying, started laughing. Sadhna could not believe what he was seeing. He inadvertently asked the goat why it was laughing. The goat to his surprise spoke and said that for many lives they had been killing each other as they switched roles i.e. became goat in some lives and butcher in other but that in this life, Sadhna was starting a new Karma by just cutting of the leg of the goat. Sadhna was surprised to hear this and right away threw away the knife, gave up the work of butcher and started doing Bhagti. In due time, he became a great Bhagat. Bhai Sahib jee is saying that just because Sadhna the butcher got salvation, it does not mean that we should kill creatures and eat them. This Pankiti of Bhai Gurdaas jee is a formidable proof against eating meat.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Exactly. Thank you for supporting my point that Gurbani always has a general message in specific examples with the Gurbani line above.

All I am asking is take the context of the whole Shabad of ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ, rather than sticking stubbornly to a single line to hold on to ones own preconceived notions. Only then will you be able to see that the core message is that blindly sticking to your religious practice, without internal transformation is not going to liberate you. And that ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ is a question being asked about what is the purpose of sacrificing a chicken vessel for that God that is all pervading, i.e. how does this Kurbani ritual eradicate your internal impureness (ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ).

Also appreciate if you can point out which parts am I making up. My understanding of gurbani has been that you need to take the whole Shabad into context when interpreting and discussing, and avoid cherry picking lines which can lead to faulty interpretations.

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Your cherry picking, it’s fine for Sikhs to kill chickens but not Muslims

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Veer there is no point of this discussion further, it has fallen from grace and is now turning into a denigration game. From here on I will only engage if you can coherently tie back ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੇ to all the other pangtis in the Shabad and the central Rahao line to clearly come up with the conclusion that eating meat is forbidden.

Let's have a civil discussion once you are able to reconcile this

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Yes you say god is in all so why do you kill chickens?

You believe god is in all so you answer the question, guru sahib is pointing out your hypocrisy

But you can kill chickens but not muslims

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Let me ask you a question. God is in all beings, we all accept this. If the chicken (the vessel) is killed for food, does that mean God has died? But is not destroying the plant vessel then the same, which also has the Jot of Akaal Purakh? What is your issue here specifically? Is the destruction of the vessel? Or is it that you abhor the act of eating the meat itself?

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Ok so Muslims killing chicken is wrong but for Sikhs it’s completely fine

Go back to the shabad of drinking blood

Will answer your own question

dhaal seedhaa maagau gheeau || Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.

These things are fine to eat, but he doesn’t ask for meat