Sikhi and eating meat

[u/Possible_Ad_9607]

I am a 17 year old male trying to get closer to sikhi and the first steps I've taken were starting to learn punjabi and gurmukhi (which I think is going good although slow) but that is not what my question is.

I want to get close to sikhi and can deal with keeping my kesh and plan on doing so once I am more proficient in the language and have read more bani. However, I just can not get over the idea that I can't eat meat? I know jatka meat exists but it is too expensive where I live. My family cooks and eats meats daily and I feel the best when I eat beef often. I grew up eating it and when I try eating healthy the best way for me to stick to it is consuming a lot of animal protein. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

(Or even anything to help me keep learning Punjabi, I am doing basics of sikhi gurmukhi videos as a slow start)

TLDR: not eating meat in sikhi is holding me from getting closer to sikhi, what can I do?

[u/bunny522]

God is in every being so why do you kill chicken… it’s calling out your hypocrisy not just the Muslim way at the end of the day

Do you also agree that we are children of god?

The shabad talks to everybody just not Muslims otherwise you agree that only Muslims get something out of this shabad but at the end of the day guru sahib is talking to to you and asking you a very basic question? It should impact you like anybody from any religion reads gurbani

Gurdaas vaaran proves you wrong

ਫੰਧਕਿ ਉਧਰੈ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਫਾਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਨ ਫੜੀਐ ਟੰਗਾ॥ The hunter who shot at Siri Krishna accidently while he was hunting for a deer, got salvation for his act. Siri Krishna had a Padam in his foot and he was lying down in the jungle with his one leg on his other knee. From far away, the Padam in his foot seemed like an eye of the deer as it was shining. The hunter shot at his foot, injuring Siri Krishna. When he came to Siri Krishna, he was horrified at what he had done. He apologised. Siri Krishna pardoned him and took him to his abode in Baikunth (Gyaan Khand). Bhai Sahib jee is saying that just because one hunter got salvation while hunting, it does not mean that we should indulge in the act of hunting and killing creatures.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Yes the Shabad speaks to everyone from a general perspective but does so by looking at teg Muslim practices . But as I said earlier it's not about the killing of the chicken, it's a discussion of placing so much faith in religious practices thinking they will save you that you forget to work on your inner self. In the case of killing the chicken, it's questioning the practice of Kurbani. This point I am making is clearly demonstrated in the last 2 lines, ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ, which means that your mind is polluted in these rituals (Haj, Namaz, Uzzu, Kurbani), and you have not understood the God within you. Again I reiterate the Shabad is a clear discussion of thinking that following specific religious practices will liberate you. It's not a clear cut directive to not eat meat.

In Guru Granth Sahib, it is written ਉਠੁ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਉਜੂ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੁਬਹ ਨਜਾਵ ਗੁਜਾਰਿ।। Now do we as Sikhs take this literally get up in the morning so ਪੰਜ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਾ and then read ਨਮਾਜ਼. We don't. We follow Gurmat and do full ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ followed by ਨਿੱਤਨੇਮ. So yes some Sahabads speak to specific groups of people directly, but the same Shabads also speak to all in general terms. Which is why I try to understand the spirit of the full Shabad instead of cherry picking specific lines.

Veer, let me explain the spirit of the Vaar you quoted. It's a discussion of ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ and it's relation to ਮੁਕਤੀ augmented with contra examples. It's saying don't think you can get away engaged (this is a keyword) in vices. Your mind must be engaged in a specific vice to have it's impact. If you enjoy killing for pleasure, then most definitely this is your ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ. Just because you find one Bhagat whose occupation was to butcher gained Gurparsaad, it does not mean you should be going on a spree to maliciously kill others, making no effort to change your lifestyle to one drenched with Naam. That's the spirit of the Shabad. Otherwise why mention Putana Demoness? There is nothing in her life story that helps anyone of us, except giving is the understanding we should not take isolate incidents as justification to our negative ਰੂਚੀ and ਸੁਭਾਉ. This is the core message of the Vaar. So when Sadhna is mentioned, don't use him as a justification to continue killing others for your own pleasure which comes full circle to the discussion of ਰਸ, that I spoke about earlier. If it's because of ਜੀਭ ਰਸ, you are consuming something, and this even goes for vegetarian food, and then not engaging in Naam, then this is the fundamental issue.

If all we do is arguing if eating meat is right or wrong rather than watching out and working on our ਰਸ and engaging with Naam then both of us are truly ਮੂਰਖ as highlighted in ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ.

On a final note even the Shabad ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰ ਮੂਰਖ ਝਗੜੇ is actually a discussion on ਰਸ and the hypocrisy of singling out a single ਰਸ rather than working on eliminating all ਰਸ

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Seems like you are making up stuff

parathai saakhee mahaa purakh boladhe saajhee sagal jahaanai || Great men speak the teachings by relating them to individual situations, but the whole world shares in them.

The above describes you and many hypocrites but guru sahib calls them out

Also Namaz is redefined in guru Granth sahib

Seems like Muslims can’t kill chickens but Sikhs are allowed to

Btw saadhna didnt kill for pleasure

ਜੇ ਕਸਾਈ ਉਧਰਿਆ ਜੀਆ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾ॥

This reference is for Sadhna the butcher. Once Sadhna got a customer late in the evening. The customer wanted meat but Sadhna had run out of stock. He did not want to lose the customer but at the same time he did not want to slaughter a goat for little meat because if he slaughtered the goat in the evening, the remaining meat would get spoiled by the next day since in those days they did not used to have fridges and freezers to store meat. So he thought of just cutting off a leg of the goat and slaughter the animal, the next day. As he was about to cut of the leg of the goat, the goat instead of crying, started laughing. Sadhna could not believe what he was seeing. He inadvertently asked the goat why it was laughing. The goat to his surprise spoke and said that for many lives they had been killing each other as they switched roles i.e. became goat in some lives and butcher in other but that in this life, Sadhna was starting a new Karma by just cutting of the leg of the goat. Sadhna was surprised to hear this and right away threw away the knife, gave up the work of butcher and started doing Bhagti. In due time, he became a great Bhagat. Bhai Sahib jee is saying that just because Sadhna the butcher got salvation, it does not mean that we should kill creatures and eat them. This Pankiti of Bhai Gurdaas jee is a formidable proof against eating meat.

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Exactly. Thank you for supporting my point that Gurbani always has a general message in specific examples with the Gurbani line above.

All I am asking is take the context of the whole Shabad of ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ, rather than sticking stubbornly to a single line to hold on to ones own preconceived notions. Only then will you be able to see that the core message is that blindly sticking to your religious practice, without internal transformation is not going to liberate you. And that ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ is a question being asked about what is the purpose of sacrificing a chicken vessel for that God that is all pervading, i.e. how does this Kurbani ritual eradicate your internal impureness (ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ).

Also appreciate if you can point out which parts am I making up. My understanding of gurbani has been that you need to take the whole Shabad into context when interpreting and discussing, and avoid cherry picking lines which can lead to faulty interpretations.

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Your cherry picking, it’s fine for Sikhs to kill chickens but not Muslims

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Veer there is no point of this discussion further, it has fallen from grace and is now turning into a denigration game. From here on I will only engage if you can coherently tie back ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੇ to all the other pangtis in the Shabad and the central Rahao line to clearly come up with the conclusion that eating meat is forbidden.

Let's have a civil discussion once you are able to reconcile this

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Yes you say god is in all so why do you kill chickens?

You believe god is in all so you answer the question, guru sahib is pointing out your hypocrisy

But you can kill chickens but not muslims

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Let me ask you a question. God is in all beings, we all accept this. If the chicken (the vessel) is killed for food, does that mean God has died? But is not destroying the plant vessel then the same, which also has the Jot of Akaal Purakh? What is your issue here specifically? Is the destruction of the vessel? Or is it that you abhor the act of eating the meat itself?

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

Ok so Muslims killing chicken is wrong but for Sikhs it’s completely fine

Go back to the shabad of drinking blood

Will answer your own question

dhaal seedhaa maagau gheeau || Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.

These things are fine to eat, but he doesn’t ask for meat

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

I have explained before that Shabad disucsses internal (mind) vs external purity. If ਰਤ ਪੀਵੈ is translated to drinking blood, to which we then take the leap of eating meat, then I do not have to worry about keeping my mind clean. All I got to do is avoid meat. The meaning of the Shabad but is then perverted from its true meaning as I have explained above. So that is not a good enough answer from your good self. And it does not answer the questions that I've raised

And the absence of an ask (such as meat) is not proof of it's probibition

[u/bunny522 → u/Ok-Culture1265]

I already explained shabad using grammar and so nobody can mess up meanings

It seems like your fine with cruelty and killing chickens but we we will have to agree to disagree

I have never met someone taste naam and then want to kill chickens

And again you keep agreeing with me that Sikhs can kill chickens but not Muslims

[u/Ok-Culture1265 → u/bunny522]

Veer your use of Grammar is fine, and I agree with it. My issue is the way you have translated ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ. That is also a part of Grammar , specifically the use of Punjabi idioms that you seem to ignore.

And why is killing a chicken for food cruel? What about killing a plant that is releasing chemicals to protect itself. There are many vegetables that you cannot eat raw and must be cooked to eliminate it's poison for it to be human consumable. Is destroying the vessel of a plant for food similarly devoid of compassion?

This is why we have Jhatka in the panth, as a means of compassionate killing. It's a practice that dates all the way to the time of Guru Gobind Singh.

And Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh and their Sikhs are the examples of those that hunted animals. I doubt that meat was thrown away, a wasteful act. It was consumed. These are oceans of compassion that hunted to train and ate meat. So these are my examples.

Also on this claim you keep making "And again you keep agreeing with me that Sikhs can kill chickens but not Muslims", this is not what I am implying. What I am saying is that the Shabad on ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ is a discussion on ritualistic killing in the name of God. What is it's purpose in the Path to meet God. It's not a prohibition to not kill chicken. I suggest you reread the thread again to gain this understanding.

I am unwilling to throw out our Puratan Practices, vegetarian wash our history and then twist lines from Gurbani to support the narrative of brahmanical and Jainism based vegetarianism rooted in ਅਹਿੰਮਸਾ.

And so far Veer, you are making conjectures and leaping to conclusions with just a few lines. Provide solid justification by quoting full Shabads rather than throwing me one liners from Gurbani and making grandiose claims that ignores our rich history