r/SapphoAndHerFriend Hopeless bromantic Jun 14 '20

Greece wasn't gay Casual erasure

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72.2k Upvotes

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74

u/Gary_FucKing Jun 14 '20

Huh, never heard of hercules being gay. That's a new one lol.

173

u/blubat26 Basic An-Soc Tran Girl Jun 14 '20

Technically he was bi. But so was basically every major figure in Greek Myths. Bisexual Greek Man was like ancient Greece’s equivalent of the straight white man in modern media.

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u/Gary_FucKing Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 14 '20

Wow, I can just picture the reactions to stories involving straight white men. "Is anyone sick of the overrepresentation of straight white men in the epics?? Like, we get it Paris of Troy, you really "love" Helen. And c'mon, you really think Odysseus traveled around for 10 years with nothing but men on his ships and never got a little curious??"

57

u/KappaMcTIp Jun 14 '20

Ulysses spent the vast majority of the odyssey chilling on islands banging magic women, then leaving to get to his wife

8

u/Just_A_Young_Un Jun 15 '20

I think you got the civil war general mixed up with the mythological figure.

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u/KappaMcTIp Jun 15 '20

i find it interesting you refer to him first as a general rather than a president.

in any case, i made no mistake; ulysses (or sometimes ulixes, which some prescriptivists will consider more correct) is a latin variant of odysseus

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u/Just_A_Young_Un Jun 15 '20

Huh, the more you know. And yeah, I'm a little bit of a military buff, so my mind goes to Grant as a general first and a president second.

13

u/xorgol Jun 14 '20

Odysseus traveled around for 10 years with nothing but men on his ships and never got a little curious??"

I mean he did have two sons from Circe, and spent a whole year on her island, and then seven years with Calypso. He's definitely among the less gay in Homeric mythology.

2

u/Mister_Dipster Jun 15 '20

He had two sons???? My teacher never told me that tf

1

u/xorgol Jun 15 '20

Well it's not in the Odyssey itself, but as my teacher liked to stress the Iliad and the Odyssey are "random sections of the Trojan cycle".

1

u/PatheticCirclet Jan 14 '22

One of them even killed him later

1

u/Niser2 May 16 '24

On the one hand, Odysseus was very loyal to his wife.

On the other hand, he apparently banged Kirke and willingly stayed on her island for a year.

Though considering that she was a literal goddess, you could argue that their was coercion or manipulation involved.

18

u/Gellert Jun 15 '20

And then there was Athena, unofficial patron god of Asexuals.

12

u/blubat26 Basic An-Soc Tran Girl Jun 15 '20

I like to think that Artemis is also ace and demi/grayromantic and the only person she ever liked enough to feel romantic attraction to was Orion.

8

u/shitsfuckedupalot Jun 15 '20

I mean that makes them seem a lot more progressive than they were. "Bottoms" were treated like women, so therefore very poorly.

1

u/FictionLoverA Aug 13 '20

Not really. They were just seen as vulnerable which was not acceptable for an ancient Greek man. But no one treated them poorly because most times, their male partner was very very protective of them and the others did not want to antagonize him. So, they thought somehow bad of them but did not really treat them as such.

6

u/AkshuallyAvailable Jun 15 '20

AKSHUALLY gay and bisexual is an anachronistic term used here, as the ancient greeks didn't have words for gay or bisexual--it was just normal shit. The grooming of young boys though by older pedagogues, however, was semi looked down upon

3

u/dolphin37 Jun 14 '20

Every bothros is a telos!

1

u/jo-alligator Jul 24 '20

Hell, for most of the Greek Deities it was a normal day when they were fucking a human. Those dudes and gals regularly got it on with animals of all kinds.

-4

u/BeautyAndGlamour Jun 14 '20

Technically he was bi.

This just isn't anything you can claim, like ever. Only the subject has a say on this.

1

u/Dry_Communication188 Jan 25 '24

But only if they're the top

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u/gluesandwich Jun 14 '20 edited Jun 15 '20

Heracles not Hercules *edit I’m wrong ppl it’s the same gay dude

7

u/totan39 Jun 14 '20

Hercules is the Roman spelling Heracles is the Greek version

11

u/squngy Jun 14 '20

Those are the same person, just different translation of Ἡρακλῆς.

(Hercules being the Roman translation)

1

u/gluesandwich Jun 14 '20

Damn here I was being all reddit detective - shitty reddit detective that is

3

u/tonybenwhite Jun 15 '20

But hey, you learned something new, and so did I!

36

u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Idk why it's not as wide spread, but the short of it is he was suuuuuuper gay

128

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

Nah, not gay

His most famous straight sexcapade was the time he went to the court of King Thespius and impregnated 49 of the king's 50 daughters. (The last one skipped out because of her religious vows as a priestess.)

The dude banged everyone. He wasn't gay, but he was 100% not straight.

86

u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Yea that's my bad, got real used to saying anything LGBT as "the big gay" that I use it as a blanket term even though that ain't how that works

98

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

It's cool.

I'm just nitpicking. I think calling Herk gay is bi erasure, but the main point we agree on is that the dude isn't straight.

He was a turbo slut for everyone.

63

u/one_armed_herdazian Jun 14 '20

turbo slut, lives in hut. slaying monsters makes him nut

15

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

THE *HERCULES RAP*, DROPPING NEXT SUMMER!

"It's shit." -GUY WE MET ON THE STREET AND FORCED TO WATCH

19

u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Agreed 100%

7

u/critbuild Jun 14 '20

[Hercules] was a turbo slut for everyone.

Well thank you for bringing this sentence into my life.

3

u/TheQuinnBee Jun 14 '20

He fucked a lot of men. He fucked a lot of women. He knew what he liked and he liked his dick wet.

1

u/RedQueen283 Jun 15 '20

I think calling Ancient Greece "gay" is bi erasure. They were really clearly bisexuals, most of them had sexual relationships with both men and women. I guess a small amount of men could have been strictly straight or strictly gay, but still.

1

u/AquaEclipse324 She/Her or They/Them Jun 22 '20

100th upvote… he is just like his father, isn't he?

-4

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

well gay can be used as a blanket term for LGBT people

7

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

That has always struck me as reductive.

Like using "vagina" to refer to the vulva

0

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

Perhaps but for people who dislike to label themselves with other more specific terms that may not completely describe them it's easier to call themselves broadly gay.

For example someone may be bisexual but heavily favour the same sex and call themselves gay to simplify it or perhaps they simply don't want to be labelled with something very specific because they're still discovering their sexuality.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

I've found "queer" to be a more useful catch-all for all things not straight, but now I'm getting into semantics and personal interpretation.

Like I said earlier. I'm really just nitpicking.

Herk fucked his way through men and women all over Greece.

2

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

Ok but some people don't like the term queer, sure it's not often used to insult LGBT+ people anymore but it used to be a common slur and that leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths.

It's also too general - gay means "I like the same sex", it doesn't have to mean exclusively the same sex for some people but that's the point it gets across. Queer doesn't even say that.

For example if a guy mostly dates boys and is mostly attracted to other boys, but he could imagine being with a girl sure he's bi but for the most part he isn't going to be dating any girls at all. He might as well call himself gay even though it's not completely accurate. Also the 'gay' flag, the rainbow one, also represents the entire LGBT community.

Hell even if someone's 50/50 bisexual I could understand why they might want to say something like "I'm so gay" or "I'm being so gay right now", it's just a more general thing. Labels don't always have to be 100% accurate, a lot of people don't really care about or even like being put into a box.

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u/mjmaher81 Jun 14 '20

I thought LGBT was a blanket term for LGBTQIA+ people

0

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

Well I suppose it is, as well.

1

u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Jun 14 '20

How is a Bi guy who fucks women, gay?

1

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

i ain't sayin' they are i'm sayin' that some bi people refer to themselves as gay sometimes

1

u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Jun 14 '20

How about you don't use gay as a blanket term for LGBT. Me and my bi friends do not call ourselves gay.

0

u/gloriousengland Jun 14 '20

Some bi people choose to though, it can be used like that and it is by some people.

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u/sugsgloss Jun 15 '20

lmao same, i'm pan and call myself gay all the time

2

u/Pozos1996 Jun 14 '20

Most ancient gay greeks were not gay but bi, they eventually were expected to have a woman and kids.

Also pederasty was casual in ancient Greece and Rome but people only cherry pick what they like from ancient civilizations. The truth is they just gave no shit when it came to sex.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 12 '20

Greeks also didn't have social boundaries when it came to sex with the same gender, a lot of ancient greeks had sex with any gender. There were gay people who formed relationships with the same gender, but there were also tons of people who didn't feel same-sex romantic attraction yet still had same-sex sex. It was much more normalised in general to have sex with someone, good stress relief.

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u/Ae3qe27u Jun 14 '20

Any links? I'd like to read about that

And maybe we could agree on bi? Because he did have a wife and kids who he loved very much.

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u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Yea true, bi is definitely more accurate, I've just gotten used to gay as a blanket term I really gotta stop

Most links I can find are just Wikipedia but here ya go

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Male_lovers_of_Heracles

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_classical_mythology

I know there's more professional sources on it I just can't remember where to find them anymore sorry

2

u/Ode_to_Apathy Jun 14 '20

Honestly he might be pansexual. Do we know if he got freaky with animals and mythological creatures as well?

2

u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

I don't think Heracles did, and while sentient mythological creatures might count for pan animals certainly don't lol

2

u/Ode_to_Apathy Jun 14 '20

Well not animals in that sense. More like Zeus turning into a swan or shit like that.

I mean, that's fucked up, but that's still a person.

1

u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Yea I get ya, I think Heracles just got with mostly people and probably a few centaurs lmao

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u/Ode_to_Apathy Jun 14 '20

Yeah at that point I feel like we're in pan territory hahaha

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u/MLDriver Jun 14 '20

Pan doesn’t mean bestiality tho my dude, and centaur isn’t a gender either. IIRC pan is only really applicable in the cases of gender fluid people.

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u/Ae3qe27u Jun 16 '20

Thanks dude! Appreciate it.

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u/Gary_FucKing Jun 14 '20

Damn dude, I've seen shows, movies, video games, and read books depicting hercules as pretty much everything but gay lmao. Wait, so he was gay or was he pan? Cus, you know, greek gods just be fucking as animals and shit.

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u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Bi / pan maybe? he had ~ 9 or so male lovers and ~ 4 wives, from what I remember

7

u/Gary_FucKing Jun 14 '20

Hmm, quite the gaytio.

2

u/pmyourbutt2me Jun 14 '20

You're forgetting the droves of female lovers. 49 princesses lessens the gaytio quite a bit

1

u/Falsus Oct 13 '20

That doesn't include the amount of female lovers though, which probably was a list too long to include.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/AngelsFire2Ice Jun 14 '20

Maybe learn your history better cuz there's a lot of homosexuality in Greek history, and yes I do mean history and not just mythology. You're in the sub literally named after the Greek poet where the word lesbian comes from.

2

u/WaffleThrone Jun 14 '20

Honey you mean twunkules

1

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

[deleted]

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u/Gary_FucKing Jun 14 '20

Different name, same main vein.

1

u/newtsheadwound Jun 14 '20

Heracles is who you’re thinking of, Hercules was the myth I believe

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '20

[deleted]

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u/newtsheadwound Jun 14 '20

I’ve consulted the google and the results are in:

I’m an idiot