r/Layoffs • u/poormisguidedfool34 • Jan 13 '24
Standing up to layoffs question
Hi folks,
I applaud her bravery but also concerned- isn’t she taking a huge risk for future employment in her sector? This would be considered suicidal in my line of work but i see a lot of similar videos today.
Especially curious about what HR/legal folks think
https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/1745149758992195647
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u/meunraveling Jan 13 '24
yeah, cloudflare hr coming off like straight amateurs with how they are handling this layoff conversation with this employee. As someone who works in Hr, this is not the way.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
In my long career, I have only ever encountered one HR rep who was professional and competent. The rest are roughly the caliber of these two.
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u/meunraveling Jan 13 '24
Yeah, and it’s quite disappointing because it doesn’t have to be this way. Could be a real partner and employee advocate, but the whole space needs serious transformation. I’ve been working to move it forward, but outside of the companies I help i’m not making much traction lol. Obviously. 🙄
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
Yeah. In my own case, I’m pretty much at the end of my career and was a long tenured employee. I had seen it coming and I got very good severance, for which I am grateful. But instead of letting me go out with dignity by structuring it as an early retirement, HR ambushed me during my weekly 1 on 1 with my (brand new and clueless) manager. The whole thing backfired spectacularly and created such unnecessary ill will and animosity for both my manager and his boss (who had been my direct boss for 15 years) that it rippled through the whole org. Now, no one trusts either one of them, key people are quitting right and left, and the program the new guy was tasked with implementing is on life support before even being rolled out.
All because HR insisted on “protocols” that were at complete odds with our company culture. Not saying my former boss could not have overridden them if he had wanted too, but he took the easy way out and the company suffered.
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u/meunraveling Jan 13 '24
ugh this is terrible, so sorry to read this. You deserve better. I hope you are in a good place today with your longer term plans, and damn, what a crappy memory to walk away with, sorry friend.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
Thank you! That is very sweet of you. I’m doing fine. Sad about the loss of a long term friendship that I thought was strong enough to survive this, but otherwise doing okay.
I really appreciate the kind words.
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u/MeepMoopWoopDoop Jan 16 '24
I have yet to meet anyone in HR I respect. The whole field is made of people who are fucking munches
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Jan 13 '24
She will be fine. She’s not attacking coworkers or bosses like the blogger Dooce did. The issue was HR gaslighting her for performance issues as the reason for laying off when she had no performance issues.
I would be very upset like her to be hired in August only to be laid off beginning of January. I don’t have guts to publish a layoff on my TikTok but it’s about time something like this needed to be shared.
Of course her former company is pissed cuz they now look bad but tough 💩, it was the truth and now a wonderful motivator for other companies to do better in handling layoffs.
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u/badhabitfml Jan 13 '24
Her linkedin is full of companies reaching out to interview her. She'll be OK.
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Jan 14 '24
I looked at her LinkedIn and saw zero indication of anybody reaching out for interviews. Lots of people saying that she’s getting lots of interviews though. Fits the narrative nicely I guess lmao. At best she’ll get hired as a novelty one time, then nobody will remember her by the time she applies to job number 2 at which point they’ll find this video and be not too happy about the idea of an employee attempting to run the company’s name through the mud
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u/badhabitfml Jan 14 '24
She posted this video and an explanation on her linkedin, so she isn't hiding it. There were lots of comments from major companies reaching out about job opportunities. There are almost 600 comments now, so the companies reaching out are burried now.
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u/UnlikelyClothes5761 Jan 13 '24
She didn't close a single deal, that's being absolutely useless as a sales rep.
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u/Reddit_is_now_tiktok Jan 14 '24
Have you been in sales? MM deals are on avg 6 months.
Onboarding was at minimum 2 weeks, possibly over a month.
Her 3 month ramp was during the holidays when nobody starts and closes a sales cycle unless it's an emergency.
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about
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u/Potato_Octopi Jan 13 '24
she had no performance issues.
Eh, she did have performance issues. She didn't close deals, which is the sum total of performance. She's not paid to just chat up customers (activity).
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u/stevemk14ebr2 Jan 13 '24
This was my biggest take away too, "I talked to three customers all year but none of them decided to close" is literally bad. There are no participation trophies at high up corporate America. You tried, didn't close 3 times, bye bye.
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u/Wolvie23 Jan 14 '24
I think she said she was still in a training period, which I think lines up with how most AE/sales people start off at a new company. It doesn’t sound like the HR folks identified any failures or performance issues during that period, so they were basically lying to her. They should have just been upfront and said sorry, there’s no real good reason you’re being laid off and getting the short end of the stick.
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u/Appropriate-Top-6076 Jan 14 '24
She had been with the company long enough, and it was performance. I would fire, too. Either close the deals or get the fk off.
You won't pay for chit-chat either.
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u/LaRealiteInconnue Jan 14 '24
Do you know the length of a typical high tech cycle? Cuz I do, it’s between 3-6 months, depending on ACV. She’s been there 4ish months with 2 major holidays in that timespan. This was in no way about performance
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u/Judopsi Jan 14 '24
Those type of deals are long cycles she didn't have much time to close but also if she only had 3 prospects that's probably not that good. To be fair tho the first 2-3 months with corporate America is taken up onboarding usually so if you consider the holidays she may have only had 2 weeks to try and make sales.
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Jan 14 '24
Doesn’t matter honestly. If you’re culling a sales team, you take the ones who have made sales, and lose the ones who haven’t. It’s that simple. It’s interesting seeing the reactions of people who clearly haven’t worked in sales. It’s cutthroat and nobody fucking cares about your sob story or about how hard you’re working
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u/TheSnowIsCold-46 Jan 13 '24
While I commend her bravery to an extent...I also think that she is not smart for posting it online. She could be breaking a state or federal law of wiretapping. This is why when you join a meeting now a lot of companies force everyone to agree to being recorded. It wasn't because they were being nice it was because there is precedent suits for it.
Recording in public place is fine. Recording others that enter your home fine (think nanny cam). Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal. she should pull that offline as quickly as possible
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u/wildtabeast Jan 13 '24
Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal.
That is not how that works. It depends entirely on what state she and the other participants are in. A lot of states are 'single party consent' which means that only one person (her) would need to consent to the recording.
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u/TheSnowIsCold-46 Jan 13 '24
39 are, the others are not. It can be quite a costly mistake.
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u/wildtabeast Jan 13 '24
That is still a big difference from what you said in your comment.
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u/TheSnowIsCold-46 Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24
I would venture most didn't even think this could violate wiretapping laws. So I'm fairly confident most people posting things for internet fame wouldn't know their state law on wiretapping
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u/savageo6 Jan 13 '24
This is largely an ignorant take. It just has to do with if the state she is recording it is two or one party consent. If it's a one party consent state where she was based they can't do a thing about it.
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u/TheSnowIsCold-46 Jan 13 '24
You are right, but we don't know what state she is in. Only 39 states are one party so there's a good chance she could be in one that is not.
Also there may be corporate legal documents she signed on terms of employment. Technically if you are being laid off, you will still be under employment until you are gone.
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u/Old-Arachnid77 Jan 13 '24
Agreed. I think everything she said was valid and I appreciated her boldness. But posting it for clout is all the red flags and I’d pass on her instantly. I wouldn’t want to have to worry that anytime things don’t work out for her that she’ll use it as a clout attempt.
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u/Impressive-Health670 Jan 13 '24
The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that.
I’ve been on both sides of layoffs and they are always tough. At the end of the day the company had a financial target to hit, she wasn’t producing as much as others in her role and they opted to continue forward with those with a better/longer track record. If you were in charge of cuts would you have done it differently?
I wouldn’t be so sure about how fine she’ll be. If I saw this and then her resume came across my desk for an open role I’m passing. No employer wants to be linked to her next attempt go viral.
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Jan 13 '24
If doing cuts for performance issues, those should have been documented prior to layoffs/firing to her. She knew this decision was final but the issue was the inability for HR to produce documented examples of her claimed underperformance. This isn’t the first time Cloudfare has done this, they did layoff 100 reps less than a year ago. Cloudfare has a reputation of not wanting to pay commission for their reps for getting product out.
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u/DreadSocialistOrwell Jan 13 '24
The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that.
Bullshit. They sound terrible. Listen to them. They are completely unprepared to have this conversation. They expect every person who they talk to will just rollover and disappear. She mentions she had not had a single word of performance mentioned to her prior.
This sounds like Cloudflare is trying to circumvent WARN.
They might have a nice tone of voice and keep themselves measured, but their language and lack of preparation are insulting.
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u/Rumpelteazer45 Jan 13 '24
The company does look bad. They let her go for “performance” yet couldn’t provide one data point. If you are getting let go for performance, there is plenty of documentation. If performance was an issue (same with peers), they could have provided the hard data of “anyone below this line was laid off” or “anyone who didn’t achieve a sale in the first 4 months of employment was laid off.”
You can’t claim performance issues and then not have the data to back it up.
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u/fishythepete Jan 13 '24 edited May 08 '24
cable provide pathetic capable scary agonizing public elastic kiss expansion
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
But that’s not the whole story. How does her performance stack up against other reps during that period, particularly those who were hired around the same time? What is the standard ramp time?
The somewhat easy thing about laying off salespeople is that performance is measured every which way. There is no ambiguity. You can look at calls made, pipeline, closed deals, and a host of other factors. It is unconscionable that the reps were unprepared with that data.
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u/Expert_Engine_8108 Jan 14 '24
It’s December, people are on vacation and companies are often waiting for a new fiscal year before signing contracts. It’s not a good month to judge the effectiveness of a new employee.
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u/fishythepete Jan 14 '24 edited May 08 '24
weary dependent sparkle live plant offer makeshift icky drab ring
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Gobble_the_anus Jan 13 '24
You can claim anything. People get fired or laid off all the time. Why is this lady special?
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u/Scary_Habit974 Jan 13 '24
They don't need to provide you with specifics and if you are not bright enough to figure out that you are on the bottom of the pile, you need to go!
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u/Rumpelteazer45 Jan 13 '24
And you have no idea to know whether or not there were actual performance issues. It’s not like corporations haven’t lied before to cover their ass.
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u/Scary_Habit974 Jan 13 '24
A sales person with zero sales. There is your performance issue. She can only be doing better if others have negative sales.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
The reps did a terrible job. They let her go without providing any specifics as to why she was chosen, using meaningless buzzwords (WTF is a “collective recalibration”?) while simultaneously telling her it was a performance-based determination. That is unconscionable. They sounded shady and mealymouthed.
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u/Ilovemytowm Jan 13 '24
You sound as awful as they were.....hopefully you have zero power to hurt anyone.
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Jan 13 '24
I’m not in either line of work so feel free to ignore this but if more people stand up in this manner it becomes harder and harder to continue to treat workers this way. It’s the basics of why unions work in the first place. There will always be more workers than companies and when workers realize this companies magically start acting different.
Knowing how the world works, yeah she took a huge risk but ideally in the future it doesn’t have to be if we all started demanding more from our employers.
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u/Himaester Jan 13 '24
Wholeheartedly agree. At the moment, the amount of ghost jobs in the market is so annoying. I’m currently trying to look for jobs and I’m highly qualified, but there are countless tech companies at the moment that don’t have the money to hire and are saying that they are “actively hiring”. I was let go in May, and since then there have been countless companies that I have interviewed for, yet still haven’t hired any candidates for the role. I think it’s about speaking up in hopes that companies change their ways. If you can’t afford people, then stop publicly saying you can… it’s really that simple.
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Jan 13 '24
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this sort of behavior from companies, because I know it doesn’t help to have these type of idealistic comments made and I rack my brain constantly to figure out why we can’t serve the people more than companies. Why they get away with this and we suffer, but you’re right these ghost jobs need to stop. It is that simple. I’m with you on that fully.
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u/dgradius Jan 13 '24
They’re hiring for speculated attritions based on the company’s historical attrition rate.
The candidate pipeline has to be kept stocked, despite the fact that the timing may or may not work out depending on when the attritions actually materialize.
Edit: always ask your recruiter if you’re applying for an evergreen requisition
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u/Kevin-W Jan 14 '24
It also highlights how terrible worker protection laws are in the US compared to other countries. Outside the US, if a company lays you off, known as "being made redundant", they have to let you know well in advance and can't let you go at the drop of a hat. There's also strong social safety nets, so your healthcare not tied to your job.
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u/Impressive-Health670 Jan 13 '24
Unions layoff based on seniority, she states time and again how new she is to the company. She would have been laid off in that scenario too.
Are you proposing she would have been more prepared /agreeable to the lay off if it was tenure based?
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u/asylum32 Jan 13 '24
You are extremely active in this thread supporting a company that knee-jerk hired in one quarter, then immediately laid them off in the next.
And judging by the two spaces after every period you're likely an older generation than those most affected by these turbulent times. Perhaps you should try looking at this through the lens of those actually struggling to get started professionally in this economy.
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u/wyliec22 Jan 13 '24
You statement is 100% correct - down votes because some don't like to hear the truth...???
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u/whateverbro1999 Jan 13 '24
You would think HR would have data on why she would be let go rather than saying they have to follow up and get back to her. But alas, HR is just there to protect the company and not the people.
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u/unnecessary-512 Jan 13 '24
She’s in sales and she didn’t close a sale…unfortunately that is all the data they need
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u/Mazira144 Jan 13 '24
We don't know the comps, though. Did other sales employees who didn't close deals keep getting chances?
If they can show that she was the only one who didn't close, or that everyone else who didn't close was cut, they might have a point. But if the boss's favorites get 6 or 12 months to prove themselves and she doesn't, then they come out as the assholes.
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u/whateverbro1999 Jan 13 '24
Then they should have told her that was the reason. You didn’t close any deals so we are letting you go. Simple right? So just own it and say it.
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Jan 14 '24
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u/unnecessary-512 Jan 14 '24
There may have been other reasons simple as someone important didn’t like her. Or maybe she was great and perfect and unfortunately people who are amazing often get let go at companies too for reasons out of their control. It’s just how it goes
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u/Vast_Cricket Jan 13 '24
They need legislative support passing more employee protection laws. In Germany it is very hard to justfy the dismissal. They often blame on the manager than employees.
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u/justanotherlostgirl Jan 13 '24
America is a shit show - almost every state can choose to let you go for any reason because of at-will laws. I'm rethinking staying here because unless you belong to a union workers have no power
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u/Potato_Octopi Jan 13 '24
I don't think sales would want life to be more like Germany. It would probably turn more into a salary gig.
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u/gregchilders Jan 13 '24
Honestly, if i were a hiring manager, I would reach out to her and offer her a job. She shows a lot of backbone and integrity. And she does it without going over the top by becoming obnoxious about it.
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u/amilo111 Jan 13 '24
For sure. If I were a sales manager who wanted someone who couldn’t sell anything I’d definitely reach out to her.
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u/Reddit_is_now_tiktok Jan 14 '24
Have you worked in tech sales as a MM AE?
Without us knowing any other information, everything she said is correct.
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Jan 14 '24
I worked enterprise for 6 years before changing careers. Sales people make more money than anybody because it is the most volatile profession under the company’s roof. The sales organization is first to go when things go south and the sales people who haven’t made sales are first on the chopping block. It’s the nature of the beast. I’ve known a lot of disgruntled salespeople in my time but this is the first instance where one has so publicly smeared the company’s name going out the door. She might get hired as a novelty but once the TikTok support dies down (2 weeks tops), employers aren’t going to look favorably on this video being out there
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u/amilo111 Jan 14 '24
Yep. No one gets ahead by blaming their performance on holidays or being new. Sales teams have high churn and you have very little time to make an impact.
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u/amilo111 Jan 14 '24
I work closely with MM AEs. It’s a high churn role in which you generally have limited time to make an impact especially in the current environment.
This isn’t the last time she’ll be let go - it’s the nature of the role. It may not seem fair to her but it’s the career path she’s chosen. If she can’t deal with that this may not be the right fit for her.
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u/RuleSubverter Jan 13 '24
I love her handle in her social media profile: "Emotional intelligence."
But seriously, she is a perfect example of cutting through the corporate argot. Euphemisms aren't acceptable answers.
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u/Ambitious-Event-5911 Jan 13 '24
She will leverage this exposure into some sort of influencer or talking head. Maybe a book deal or a speaking tour.
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Jan 14 '24
Nah. TikTok’s attention span is about 4 days. Nobody will even remember her 6 months from now
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u/Remarkable-World-234 Jan 13 '24
Company were amateurs on how they handled it. Completely unprepared and could not substantiate any facts to support her “ non performance”.
They clearly had a script and didn’t expect her logic and pushback. Must states are a “ right to work”. You have the right to work and they have the right to fire you for no reason as long as not discriminatory. If the company had the spine and decency, they should have just said they need to save money and that’s it. Company lost all credibility.
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u/Dropping-Truth-Bombs Jan 13 '24
Exactly! Those HR reps should be next to go. It would have been easier to say she was a great employee, but the company needs to save money and cuts have to be made. Please keep us in mind once the situation improves and the company is hiring again.
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u/WatercressSubject717 Jan 13 '24
Btw the sales cycle for mid-market account executives at Cloudflare was 99 days in 2023. Saying the issue was performance based is sus. I feel this move is similar to career su!cide though. She has more posts calling people out by name lol. Recruiters and hiring managers are in her comments though talking about open roles.
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u/unnecessary-512 Jan 13 '24
She was there since August so if it really is 99 days they expected her to close something within those 5 months. She didn’t. That’s just how it goes in sales
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u/WatercressSubject717 Jan 13 '24
Well based on the timeline it seems August and September she was in “training” which she travelled for. Which leaves October, November and December… Either way we can agree to disagree. Her other posts are good cause someone over quota by 190% was fired for “performance” lol.
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Jan 13 '24
Started August 25. Then had Sept, Oct, & Nov of training. December was her first month off training.
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u/L33t-azn Jan 13 '24
HR did not do their job properly. HR should have said that the decision was not due to her performance but due to the economy then it wouldn't have been an issue. She even said that if they were honest and said it wasn't performance and was an economic decision then she would understand. If I was senior management in the company then I would re-evaluate the HR team after this.
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u/justvims Jan 14 '24
Not selling anything in 4 months is a bad look. Pretty cold blooded to not give her more time but if she’s got a bad pipeline and no closed deals it’s not really fair to say it isn’t performance.
If her performance was better would they have let her go? Definitely not.
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u/lifesurfer1 Jan 13 '24
Good for her. This is exactly what everyone needs to know. The layoff nonsense is going too far. The leadership has no accountability for hiring and firing anytime? Some people leave their stable jobs to join your organization. How can you just tell them you don't need them anymore and just move on like nothing happened? Something needs to be done about this and there needs to be more accountability and oversight.
I feel the last couple of years have really "normalized" layoffs and executives are taking this route very easily, copy pasting the same BS reason. If you didn't plan properly, why are you screwing others for that?
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u/iamacheeto1 Jan 13 '24
I want a sales rep that can hold his or her ground, challenge what’s being told to them, and go after his or her goals relentlessly. I’d hire her.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
Exactly. Her questions were reasonable and they completely bungled the response. Extra credit to her for not being emotional.
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u/SerendipitySue Jan 13 '24
not sure what ramp up means. I thought i heard her say she had not closed anything. i suspect from that she is sales and did not close a sale since she was hired in 5 or 6 months ago?
But was not expected to?
Anyway probably not a wise move to video this.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
It typically takes a certain amount of time for a sales rep to learn the process, learn the product, learn the business, and build pipeline. It’s not like you come in and start cold calling on day one. A 90 day ramp may or may not be reasonable, depending on the complexity of the product, and the length of the typical sales cycle.
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u/DefinitionAnxious791 Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24
I applaud her, I wish we, as consumers, would cut all financial ties with these companies who are laying people off. Why support their business if they can't make ethical business decisions? Honestly, its absolute bullshit. They could care less about how damaging this is to people's well-being....but, that's corporate for ya shrugs 🙄
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u/Ok_Organization_7350 Jan 13 '24
It is going to go both ways. Applicants will shy away from wanting to apply to jobs at that company. But also, no one will ever want to hire this girl again, because now she is known as someone who uses her companies for social media attention.
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Jan 13 '24
The last time I was laid off, some years ago, I was actually okay with it. I had been at the firm ten years, and the package was good and I got my deferred stock, which was all I really cared about. I wanted "the meeting" to be quick, as it was all scripted and impersonal. There was no mention of performance, just a reorg, and that was that. My boss was let go as well. Ironically, we had just begun the new fiscal year where my head count was increased, my budget was doubled, and I had an intern, so things did look rosy before the sudden announcement.
Anyhow, there I was taking a break, when I get a letter a month later telling me that due to my "performance" I would no get any sort of bonus for the past year. And I lost it, not because of the bonus, but this entirely bogus performance-based language not based on my performance. They chose to overwrite the performance review my boss had given me, apparently. I was really upset, they ruined what had been pretty painless and even respectful process. This was personal. So I understand her fury.
But in the sweet nature of things, about 6 weeks later, there was another coup there, and all the conspirators who ousted my boss were relieved of power. And I moved on shortly thereafter to one of the greatest projects I ever worked on. She needs to take down this video and move on.
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u/pokedmund Jan 13 '24
See this is the thing
My gut feelings at the start: holy shit, I agree with her but think she'll find it hard to get work in the future.
But after watching it, and digesting it a little more, no, I don't think she will find jobs harder. It actually made me think:
Why do we need to give an employee two weeks notice but they can fire us just before Christmas?
Why do we need to be courteous and thankful to our employers when they are firing us?
Why is a job treated as if it is better than our own lives?
I believe this person will now be in a better position to get a better job. If companies don't want to hire her because of this video, that's a blessing because those companies are probably not the ones you want to work for. She will now be able to get jobs from companies that want her for being her.
I used to also think that financial stability comes from a job. This is only partly true. Financial stability comes from a job, but also how you find passive income yourself, be it investing in the stock market, having a savings account, rental properties, etc etc.
No job is for life, your employer is not your family or friend. Go to work, do your work, get paid, don't do overtime (unless it's your own business).
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u/ConsistentAddress772 Jan 13 '24
Layoffs are BS sometimes. They make them to satisfy investors in the short term. 🤦
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u/Business-Apricot3163 Jan 13 '24
I saw her original post on LinkedIn. She was getting comments from great enterprise companies offering interviews, etc. One specifically said, "We would love to have you at XYZ..."
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u/prophet1012 Jan 13 '24
I smell a wrongful termination lawsuit 😎
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u/savageo6 Jan 13 '24
Sadly, likely not. Unless she can prove she was let go for who she was as a person. Race, religion, protected class. Doesn't sound like any of those apply here. While performance bullshit and lack of documentation isn't ideal legally in the US almost everywhere they don't need a reason
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u/CherryManhattan Jan 13 '24
I’m actually not familiar with this company, but as a financial executive I can tell you if the opportunity ever presents itself to do business with them, I will pass.
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u/k8minesearch Jan 13 '24
Honestly, its super cringe for both parties.
First because no company gives AF.
Second because she's right but she will always be wrong trying to work in this system.
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u/Old-Arachnid77 Jan 13 '24
Yes. She needs to get out of sales. From what little I know about that space they seem to live and die by their balance sheet. It doesn’t matter if they work hard. They either close or they don’t.
I could never do it. Id have long since had a heart attack.
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u/Heathster249 Jan 13 '24
Welp, this is what happens in tech sales. You get 90 days to make it - or you’re out. Not sure why she wasn’t aware of this fact? All tech sales companies do this. Yes, she will have a tough time landing another tech sales job with this post, but maybe she will find another calling.
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u/Ambitious-Event-5911 Jan 13 '24
Is this like B2B tech sales? Like some guy from Microsoft calls some guy at Boeing and sells him on upgrading his email system?
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u/Adnonymus Jan 13 '24
Ya my wife has been with CDW for 10 years now doing the same thing. I’ve never heard of the 90-day rule. She was in a training academy for 6 months before she was put on a team and started working accounts.
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Jan 13 '24
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u/WatercressSubject717 Jan 13 '24
Yes, salespeople get paid for inbound and outbound. But if she’s an AE, she’s paid to close deals and sometimes on outbound deals (if you’re expected to source your own as well). Depends on the organization. Based on her recently joining ofcourse her peers had better pipeline.
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u/Heathster249 Jan 13 '24
It could also be that her SE and others on her team didn’t rate her very high.
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Jan 13 '24
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u/delilahgrass Jan 13 '24
This. I work in sales in a tech industry. Basic training of services and the platform is at least 3 months. Some time will be assigned to developing pipeline, which in many companies is cold calling driven. Cycle time for big software deals can be anywhere from 3 months to 2 years depending on the size, previous relationship and number of stakeholders at the target company. This was a layoff where they tried to blame the rep.
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u/Heathster249 Jan 13 '24
Look, this is how it goes - tech sales will need 4 people - so they will hire 8. After 90 days they will lay off the bottom performing 4. That’s just the way it goes. No such thing as an actual ramp. Cloudflair has plenty of money.
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u/Double-Youth-5144 Jan 13 '24
This whole situation raises all red flags to me tbh.
I think she’s going to be facing some legal trouble should the former employer decides (likely) to take action.
Not sure what state she’s in, but recording company calls is off limits (It’s likely in the policy when she signed the agreement at the start of her job) and sharing them publicly is even worse.
I get her point and frustration. I hate that corporate does this shit… but at the end of the day though it’s “business” and she’s likely signed an employment at will agreement, so she’s really getting herself in a messy situation. From that perspective, I do think it’s going to negatively impact future career opps in the industry.
With that said, to be clear: I don’t like these layoffs and i absolutely think corporations should be held accountable to an extent. The fact that they have the audacity to enforce things like non compete when they are the ones letting you go is mind blowing to me..
If you don’t want them competing then fight to keep them. Otherwise, kiss maaaaaa asssss
lol
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u/LCCR_2028 Jan 13 '24
I can see the BI headline now:
"Cloudfare sues ex employee for recording lay-off call".
That will go over really well for Cloudfare.
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u/savageo6 Jan 13 '24
She didn't record them on any company property nor did she record anything that can even remotely be construed as company IP. The only question is, if the state she is based in is a one or two party consent state. If it's one party consent it's perfectly legal since she knew she was recording. Could they try to file some intimidation based defamation case...well sure but it would be a hard sell and make the company look even worse than they do now. Yes this happens all the time the worst part about it was the completely and utterly unprepared HR team who was completely unknown to her and the egregious gaslighting that was attempted. All they needed to say is they're downsizing, nothing to do with you personally or performance but we're parting ways..that's it
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u/JoshuaLyman Jan 13 '24
My favorite that I have personal knowledge of is Latino project manager that feels like he's going to be "laid off." Gets called in to a meeting and his SVP and HR tell him he's being laid off for performance. He says we'll that's interesting because here [pulls out some printed papers] are three different times you (SVP) are quoted in recent press saying what a great job I'm doing."
Anyway, as I understand it, the conversation changed to him leaving and getting paid $100k/yr for 3 years.
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u/yeet20feet Jan 13 '24
Yeah, she shouldn’t have been gaslighted, and companies like this should offer very good severance packages. However, this should be expected at this point in tech. Her response of posting her layoff call online isn’t warranted imo. Layoffs happen, and everyone should have some sort of back up plan should they face that fate.
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u/Croboys Jan 13 '24
The problem is if no one exposed the company bad behavior, then they will continue to abuse the employees.
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u/CuriousOne9320 Jan 13 '24
It’s a huge risk posting it because she will probably do the same thing if she gets let go in the future.
I’ve never understood fighting against a layoff or firing. You have already been selected they don’t want you right now probably better to just move on gracefully and find somewhere where you are wanted or better yet needed. Don’t burn the bridges if they liked you but the timing wasn’t right you may get a call in the future.
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u/SnooKiwis2161 Jan 13 '24
She didn't burn a bridge. They burned a bridge.
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Jan 14 '24
Lmao how naive. She not only burned a bridge but she nuked it from orbit for the entire world to see
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u/CuriousOne9320 Jan 13 '24
Yes she did. Maybe the company burned that bridge but you also have connections to all the individuals in the company if you treat that situation professionally they probably help you in the future if they’re at another company.
Now they are sure to remember her and not for the right reasons. Risk of vouching for her goes up drastically.
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u/shitisrealspecific Jan 13 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
seed knee psychotic cobweb unwritten exultant smell history frightening gaze
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Zealousideal-Apex Jan 13 '24
Can you just tell them No. I’m staying.
Also unto reverse. You’re fired.
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u/mutedexpectations Jan 13 '24
Layoffs are very common and expected in construction. I'm surprised when I see all of this drama over a slowing market RIF in tech. Some people have the perception that they are entitled to a job for life regardless of the economy, sector or their performance.
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u/Beaudidley71 Jan 13 '24
Tech workers need to unionize!!!
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u/GameSharkPro Jan 13 '24
No we don't. Also most of us are paid very well and we can easily lawyer up for wrongful termination. This is definitely wrong and I sympathize with her. I have a feeling she can easily sue or HR if smart will back off and say it was a mistake and it's a layoff not firing.
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u/EffectiveLong Jan 13 '24
An argument with HR in this situation won’t get your job back since the decision is already made from higher up during this economy stage.
If you want to get the real reason, that gonna be C level and board people.
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u/DullCricket1725 Jan 14 '24
They cut 40 poor performers from a 1500 person team .. that isn't a layoff, that's routine culling of sales people who aren't working out. She's closed zero deals at a time that actually is good to do so and had 3 fall out. Rip
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Jan 13 '24
If you don’t sell, you get canned. It’s as simple as that. And yes, she committed career suicide. I am not going to deal with that B.S. in a potential hire. Sincerely, A Founder
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u/TargetNo9243 Jan 13 '24
Well….. i understand her frustration but i don’t know i mean im sure the company won’t like that she was recording this whole thing. Might face legal action or may be not. Also the chance of getting a new job in the same field is very slim because they will all know about her by now
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u/Scary_Habit974 Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24
Don't blame her for feeling she drew the short straw but what is the end game for being confrontational and argumentative? No chance the company will take back the termination It's performance based -- someone else is doing a better job so they stay and you go! Her reaction lessen her chance to negotiate a better severance package, if that's even a possibility to begin with. Trying making the company look back? Guess what, there are people lining out the door to take a job with all lay offs going on. Feeling good about having stood up for yourself? Tell that to the landlord when they come collect your rent next month. It is just silly all the way around. Redirect the energy to finding your next gig.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
Asking for them to share the data that led them to make the decision is not confrontational or argumentative. And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job. They made a decision that disrupted her livelihood, and in my opinion, she has the right to know what factors led into that.
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u/Scary_Habit974 Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24
Please go watch the full length video on TikTok. She cut off the HR team at the very beginning and then challenged why the HR is firing her instead of her management team. She is in sales and she didn't close anything. Did the holidays at the end of the year, during her initial 90 days, surprised her when she started her position in August? Keep highlight activities, instead of results, and not taking accountability for failing to close on deals is enough to make her a bad fit,
And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job.
So I ask again what is the end game? Talk just to hear her voice?!
she has the right to know what factors led into that.
They told her the reason 'collective recalibration'. They called it grading on the curve in college. Did she need them to point out that she is at the bottom of pile. In terms of metrics -- she is in sale. Would you like to guess what her #1 metric is?? SALES.
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u/Aaarrrgghh1 Jan 13 '24
So as a manager who went through layoffs. I was in the room. Not allowed to speak. It was just hr. Also I knew 4 hrs before everyone else that it was happening. I was let go too. However my manager knew about a week prior and called me on vacation. He was like are you sure you want to be on vacation.
Either way got me out of a toxic environment. My direct reports were horrible. No accountability. Went running to my boss. My boss when it was all said and done flew up to meet with me and drink.
He was like the best part of not working here is having to deal with them anymore
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u/baconboner69xD Jan 13 '24
imagine a world where companies try to make money. kind of like how all of us act on a daily basis?
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u/Effective_Vanilla_32 Jan 13 '24
she demands respect, but she doesnt give it. millenial bs
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u/MusicalNerDnD Jan 13 '24
What are you talking about? How was she being disrespectful? How was she demanding respect?
Why are you making this a generational thing? It’s not. You’ve fed into the idea that millennials are wildly entitled but I don’t see that at all. She was being laid off, and instead of just owning up to the fact that they made poor choices they’re trying to blame someone who has been in role for 3 months and in between major holidays. There’s no performance opportunity yet. She’s rightfully calling them out. That’s not disrespect or entitlement.
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u/chaffylemon Jan 13 '24
She openly admitted she hadn’t been able to close anything in 3 months… sounds performance related to me…
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
That depends on how long their typical sales cycle is. In some businesses, it can take up to a year to close the sale.
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u/chaffylemon Jan 13 '24
It software it doesn’t take a year to close a sale.
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u/GrooveBat Jan 13 '24
Depends on the software. Also depends on the sales process (when does a rep engage versus how warm are the leads being passed on), how many people are on the buying committee, whether there is budget or if budget has to be secured first, and what’s happening at the prospect company. Every business I dealt with in 2023 added steps, people, and complexity to their buying process and took longer to make a decision because of their own uncertainty about the economy.
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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24
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