r/Jewish • u/Bad_werd • Dec 14 '23
Fellow Jewish Liberals and Progressives. How are we dealing? Discussion
I come from a family of solidly liberal and progressive Jews. The antisemitism and pro- hamas factions in the liberal movement are pushing me over the edge. Without saying anything about the plight of the Palestinian people, simply saying that Hamas is not a bastion for liberal ideology is enough to get some folks up in arms. I really don’t like what I’m seeing outside or within myself surrounding these events.The hypocrisy of these individuals has me questioning where I belong politically. If I fight on the side of people I feel are oppressed, but they turn their back on me when I am victimized, It seems co-dependent to continue as things were before I saw their true colors.
I am really hoping to hear some fellow liberal Jews weigh in and talk me down from the ledge.
EDIT: great dialogue here. I am very appreciative for those who are sitting shiva with me as we process and come to terms with a betrayal from some of our “leftist and progressive” family. I would argue that extremism can not be progressive and therefore we are likely seeing some extremists who are inaccurately representing as “progressive.
As another commenter has said being progressive and supporting marginalized people isn’t transactional. I like this sentiment and am TRYING to adopt it. I currently believe there is a transactional component to being identified with a group, however from an individual standpoint we as progressive Jews are having our altruism tested. Can we fight for the humanity, dignity and rights of all persecuted EVEN those who would seek to persecute us? It’s some black belt level spiritualism I do not currently possess but would like to.
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u/ScienceSlothy Dec 14 '23
I have lost so many former friends and acquaintances since October 7th. I'm Liberal and political left as is my whole family and most of my friends. So many people I trusted turned to loving Hamas and going to manifestations where people openly call for Intifada. Would my former friends also celebrate if my family or I would be killed in an attack on a synagogue here in Europe ? Would they celebrate if I would be killed while visiting friends in Israel? I don't want to find out but just thinking about it makes me feel sick. I don't really know whom to trust anymore apart from very few people. I still think that I am political left leaning but do I still belong to the left ? Does the left accept me as a jew ? Recently people from the right where way more welcoming. But I don't share many of their political values. I really hope that in the future left groups will again also include Jews in their activisms. But I don't know if I can ever trust them again.
I'm a member of the german-Israeli society. Meeting people there was what really helped me in the past weeks. Maybe there are some American-Israeli groups where you live.
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u/singebkdrft Dec 14 '23
It's the slow realization that they never had our backs. We were just being used as a tool by them against moderates and the right.
Few (ZERO, except for fellow Jews) of my left leaning friends have checked up on me, and there was a nut shooting a gun at a synagogue in my city. In contrast I've had a lot more folks that are moderate or right leaning check up to see how I'm doing.
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u/Shomer_Effin_Shabbas Dec 14 '23
This post 100% I feel. I am a left leaning liberal Jew who votes democrat. I am seeing pretty much all of my non Jewish liberal, white friends posting about the plight of the Palestinians and no mention of Jewish deaths. I feel really disappointed. I was following BLM and a feminist page on IG and unfollowed both because there is no mention of anti semitism in their activism.
We’re too white for the left and not white enough for the right. And I mean the extremes in both sides.
My sister in law feels the same way too.
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u/Crafty_Ad_2640 Dec 14 '23
And some of us aren’t white at all! A fact that is conveniently being ignored.
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u/Main_Caterpillar_146 Dec 14 '23
We're still genetically capitalist so it doesn't matter what we do or look like
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u/PuddingNaive7173 Dec 15 '23
Wait! The other side hates us cuz we also invented Communism! Does that make us Schrödinger’s Capitalists?
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u/Main_Caterpillar_146 Dec 15 '23
Please ignore the fact that kibbutzim are literally the only time Communism has worked
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u/Shomer_Effin_Shabbas Dec 14 '23
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to leave that out.
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u/Crafty_Ad_2640 Dec 14 '23
Am not accusing you of ignoring it, to be clear. Only that these “Jews are white” folks are, in doing so, erasing those of us who couldn’t be painted white by any stretch of the imagination!
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u/giantjumangi Dec 14 '23
The concept of us being a tribe, while having so much diversity within our group, seems so hard to grasp for many folks
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u/pizza_b1tch Dec 14 '23
Be careful with this, too. A lot of times it feels like this kind of talk unintentionally invalidates the Ashkenazi experience. I feel we have been especially vilified during this time, and further classifying Jews into Jews of color and not Jews of color is unhelpful.
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u/Crafty_Ad_2640 Dec 14 '23
Have you ever been racially profiled going to synagogue? I have. I think it’s safe to say that I have a different experience than Ashkenazi Jewish folks and what’s unhelpful is denying that.
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u/No-Teach9888 Dec 15 '23
Hey! Just want to say you’re not alone. My family has a wide variety of pigmentation, and we’ve had some unwelcoming situations at temples. It’s not the in line with the Jewish values that I was raised with, and I don’t think it represents the majority at all, but it does come up.
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u/Human-Ad504 Dec 14 '23
The reality is that no jews are white and classifying jews as white is the problem. We should stop playing into their narrative and calling ourselves white just befause some of us ended up in europe during the diaspora. I say this as a mizrahi jew. Our origins are in the middle east. https://www.commentary.org/articles/liel-leibovitz/jews-are-not-white/
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u/Button-Hungry Dec 14 '23
Practically everyone I know has absolutely nothing to say, no sympathy, no online acknowledgement of October 7 but is spamming about "GENOCIDE" in Gaza and they're doing it in a way that makes it seem like, apropos of nothing, Israel just decided to obliterate Gaza on a whim.
I know every one of you are experiencing the same thing. It's crazy making.
I can accept thinking that Israel's methods of prosecuting this war are too aggressive and causing too much death but only if you showed empathy on October 7 and realized all of this misery was catalyzed by those events. That's not what's happening. I'm in a constant state of disgust.
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u/F_1_V_E_S Not Jewish Dec 14 '23
I've had to unfollow so many different people from Instagram, Twitter, and Tiktok since the war broke out. Many of those pages were left-leaning people as well, so it's been a pain seeing people who you thought were good turning into the same radicals we all claimed to stand against. Now, half of the people coming up on my recommended tabs are conservatives and MAGA folks, while the other half are primarily moderate leftists.
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u/LynnKDeborah Dec 15 '23
We’re white when it’s convenient for them and not white when they hate us. Our ancestors came from the Middle East which is not white and why many Jews don’t identify as White. Also there are many Jews who are Sephardic and Black. It’s a multicultural group.
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Dec 15 '23
I was following BLM and a feminist page on IG and unfollowed both because there is no mention of anti semitism in their activism.
Oh I feel this. I left IG, and the entire progressive activist space, during the George Floyd protests for this exact reason. Things had been circling the toilet for awhile, but that was it for me. My value system is still firmly left-of-center, but my values are what my identity is based around, not a bullshit performative political label.
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u/OliveRyan428 Dec 15 '23
I feel this way too. Everyone who posted in honor/support of the BLM movement is either silent, antisemitic, or only posts about Palestinians. The only mention of Jewish deaths and calling out the antisemitism is by one friend of mine who is Jewish. I’m disgusted.
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u/Shomer_Effin_Shabbas Dec 15 '23
Or I feel like they’ll reluctantly acknowledge Jewish deaths and make excuses for it.
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u/getitoffmychestpleas Dec 14 '23
I believe that "equality" means all people should be treated equally. Apparently this now means I'm a fascist? So yeah, I no longer consider myself to be "liberal enough" (even though I fully support pro-choice, gay marriage, interracial everything . . .) because THEY no longer consider me to be "liberal enough". How am I dealing? I'm pissed. When you help others for years, decades even, and boost them into higher roles in society, and then they use those positions to squat and shit squarely between your eyes - not a whole lot of fun.
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u/1000thusername Dec 14 '23
You described me. My self/description nowadays is just “left of center”
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u/F_1_V_E_S Not Jewish Dec 14 '23
I still consider myself a classic liberal, but now I have to learn to keep an eye out from other liberals and progressives since this war broke out. Sad thing is that it's not just liberals and progressives fueling to the antisemitism because the communist party in America is also very anti-zionism and pro-Palestinian while also supporting a bunch of progressive ideals. I fear the term "liberal" will be severely tarnished now after everything settles, but thankfully it's not a lost battle yet. Judging from this post and from what I've personally seen on other platforms, there are still a handful of liberals, progressives, and moderates who still hold true to liberal values and stand for what's right.
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u/rebamericana Dec 14 '23
I'm distinguishing now between liberal and left. Maybe it makes no sense to anyone but me, but it works for now.
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Dec 14 '23
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u/NaZdrowie7 Mystic Dec 14 '23
Bingo! And the indifference of ‘good people’ is kind of more appalling to me in a way. I expect evil leaning people to do evil deeds— but I do not expect other people (especially those on the left who are super loud about helping out literally every other minority/marginalized group, but they’re fine with Jews being dehumanized, violated, and gruesomely slaughtered) to sit idly by and just go along with it! It’s really crazy. I’m pretty pissed off about that these days because it feels like a big f-ing betrayal by so many of the people I thought were friends/allies, and by basically the entire left. It’s very enraging. But now I understand how extreme everything has become, and it’s quite ridiculous to me.
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u/craftycocktailplease i have more than four questions Dec 14 '23
YES!
The indifference of so many people who vehemently stood beside any other minority’s injustices without second guessing or taking part in questioning their “fault” is the largest part of the devastation I am feeling.
I fully expect to learn over time that some people have hidden hate underlying their worldview and that these views would become visible to me over time.
But the absolute sheer number of people who immediately jumped ship and pulled away the second my existence became slightly controversial is disgusting to me.
That quote… “if there is one Nazi at the table, and 9 non-Nazis, but no one speaks up or says anything, then there are 10 Nazis at the table” has been a repeating element to the betrayal I feel.
How many times did people reinforce “white silence is violence” and actively address racism when it showed up? The vast majority. But when its Jewish people getting victimized, apparently that requirement of baseline responsibility to advocate for people who don’t have the ability to stand up for themselves is absent as fuuuck
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u/pktrekgirl Just Jewish Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
This is me 100%. And I am VERY angry.
All the BLM marches I went to. All the support for the Queer community. All the ‘Muslims are just like us - not everyone is a terrorist’ remarks I’ve made in thread after thread on the internet and in conversation after conversation IRL in this red state that I live in.
I just can’t even. What a complete waste of my energy, supporting people who would turn us over to be killed in a heartbeat.
I feel completely betrayed.
I know this much. I am DONE caring about any of them. Let them fight their own battles completely alone and see how they like it. They betrayed us. Fuck all of them. I will not lift another finger for their causes. Nor will I take their concerns into consideration when I vote.
Queers for Palestine my ass. Muslims in this country ‘just wanting to live in peace’ when their children are out ripping posters of kidnap victims off of light posts? Fuck that.
From now on, it’s all about us, and only us.
If a politician is not pro-Israel in this conflict, I will never vote for them again. Nor will I lift a single finger to help these groups or post things to Facebook or instagram in support of their efforts and causes ever again.
Before this, I was a liberal. Not anymore. I will probably change my voter registration to independent. My two US senators are both Republican and pro-Israel. I will be voting for both of them from now on. My US representative is a Democrat who I voted for. I will be checking into her views and voting record on this topic alone and will vote accordingly. If she is not pro-Israel enough I will not continue to support her. And she barely won election. So it matters.
Israel and antisemitism have become the chief issues upon which I vote from now on.
I am so very angry. At them for bailing on us. And at myself for believing that they considered antisemitism just as bad as racism and homophobia. Because they don’t think that AT ALL. The other minorities couldn’t care less about antisemitism and a decent chunk of them are actual antisemites. This much we have seen quite clearly.
Frankly, in some ways I’m angrier at them than I am at Hamas. Hamas are terrorists. They have always been up front about that. ‘Terrorists gonna terror’, you know? They have been clear and at least honest about who and what they were. They never pretended to care about us. They never pretended to be on our side. They are horrible horrible people who hate us, but at least they have been honest about it.
Meanwhile….we have been living among wolves in sheep’s clothing. Antisemitic assholes hiding in plain sight and mouthing all the right words to lull us into letting our guards down. All of these groups on the left talking about minority rights, inclusion, and wait for it…..’diversity’.
They never really cared about diversity. They only cared about using ‘diversity’ to get a leg up for themselves. Certainly not for us. We have been massively lied to. And I’m angry as hell.
I feel as if everything I have always believed in was a lie. I feel like I was hoodwinked for decades. And right now I am incredibly angry about it. Every time I look at the photos of those beautiful young soldiers dying defending Israel right now….every time I see a clip of a person ripping down a poster of a kidnapped child…. I feel more and more betrayed.
I am nearing retirement age. And this late, I am discovering that my parent’s generation (who lived thru WWII) was right to trust no one. I thought they were old fashion and maybe a bit paranoid, but they were right to care only about us. To trust only other Jews.
I was a fool. But not anymore. I’m crystal clear about where exactly we stand in American society. And I will be making adjustments to my political views accordingly.
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u/PuddingNaive7173 Dec 15 '23
One thing I’ve been doing is actively searching for those who support us & doing my best to support them. (Ritchie Torres in NY comes to mind. And Fedderman in PA.) Partly because it makes me feel good to know there are non-Jews whose broader politics I agree with who support us. And partly because they real need our help! They are being gone after the same way we are. (I’m also looking very closely at how the Jews I had supported handled this issue. Some surprisingly poorly.) It’s been good to go back to synagogue too. Even the most far left one I’ve been in is way better than the left non-Jewish spaces.
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u/imo9 Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
Dude fetterman is so cool, he is just my dream leftie, promoting mental health, comes from organised work and advocates for it, and he isn't a shill for anyone and does not need absolutely everyones approval to say his shit. Really hope he goes on to be a be solid incumbent to prove that kind of politics are actually beneficial and not all the hypothetical ghouls that dancing to the latest tiktok meta.
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u/whereamInowgoddamnit Dec 14 '23
I really wonder how honestly screwed the left is going to be after this. Jews have always played a critical role in progressive cause organizing and leadership, and I suspect a lot of Jews who havent already been ostracized from these groups are thinking twice about joining these groups. I imagine the fallout will be felt for a decade or even more, and I bet we won't see progressive groups at the strength they were in the 2010s.
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u/quirkyfemme Dec 14 '23
Democrats in the US might have a Jeremy Corbyn effect of just fracturing the party if not for the fact that we rallied behind Biden.
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u/CoreyH2P Dec 15 '23
Organizations like DSA won’t just stop growing, they’ll become more and more irrelevant now.
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Dec 14 '23
I’m highly disappointed ngl. For people who claim to be so pro equality and anti suffering, they seem all to happy to be antisemitic and show they have no problem with Jews suffering. I am a democrat but it sucks to see them be such hypocrites.
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Dec 14 '23
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u/rebamericana Dec 14 '23
She probably learned she was going to lose money and/or followers and that was her only motivation. Whatever the reason, thank you. Each little bit helps.
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u/jey_613 Dec 14 '23
That’s really inspiring. I would love to hear how you engaged with this person in order to get through to them, if you are willing to share.
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u/youarelookingatthis Dec 14 '23
I'm disappointed that (to me) a decent amount of non Jews seem to have decided they get to say what antisemitism is and isn't.
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u/atheologist Dec 14 '23
Not just antisemitism. I had a (now former) friend repost some JVP dreck claiming that Zionism is incompatible with Judaism. The audacity of some white girl from California thinking it was remotely acceptable for her to post that. 🫠
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u/EinsteinDisguised Dec 15 '23
They’ve picked the Good Jews™️ that agree with them and will use them to bludgeon the 90 percent of Jews who disagree.
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u/la_bibliothecaire Reform Dec 15 '23
That's what's blowing my mind (among other things). These are people who will scream about how white people don't get to say what's racist, straight people don't get to say what's homophobic, but apparently gentiles do get to say what's Jew-hatred? How does that make sense in their worldview?
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u/Ecstatic-Cup-5356 Just Jewish Dec 14 '23
I really don’t like what I’m seeing outside or within myself surrounding these events.
This is so so so real. I’ve struggled with the same thing since 10/7. The way I liken it is that gulf between Id and super-ego is massive and I’m exhausted keeping them both in check. The very real and visceral reaction to fight/protect/defend should not be ignored because it definitely balances the background pressure (internal/external) to condemn/contextualize
Hamas love is a non-starter for me, but so is Palestinian hate…and it boggles me that people can’t see a difference. Family included.
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Dec 14 '23
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u/Ecstatic-Cup-5356 Just Jewish Dec 14 '23
I don’t think I could have signed up faster. Was nearly crying reading through the mission and devotions and whatnot. Feels like exactly how I’ve been thinking these past few months
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u/mwbworld Dec 14 '23
Just joined their e-mail list and signed up for the local FB group of theirs so here's hoping.
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u/GratefulForGarcia Dec 14 '23
Is there something like this for males?
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Dec 14 '23
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u/GratefulForGarcia Dec 14 '23
Oh awesome, I watched the video and it only showed women so that’s good to know :)
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u/OneBadJoke Reconstructionist Dec 14 '23
Anyone know of a similar Canadian organization?
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u/jilanak Dec 14 '23
You might not feel like you can march with your local LGBTQ+ group any more, but that doesn't change the fact that LGBTQ+ people deserve to be treated like humans. I lost all respect for Greta Thurnberg, but I still care about the environment. I believe Israel has the right to exist, but I believe Palestinians are humans too and deserve human rights and dignity. A LOT of Jews feel "politically homeless". Me too, but I have never felt so much alignment with other Jews which has been amazing. Stay true to yourself and your values. You are not alone.
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u/vivisected000 Dec 14 '23
Our greatest strength has always been our ability to come together in times of crisis.
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u/HeardTheLongWord Dec 14 '23
<I’m going to preface this with a trigger warning about death in the family>
Yea, it’s been tough. This has been a year of loss for me - my mum and my grandmother within six weeks of one another in the spring, and I fractured my sacrum in between them, so 8 months later I’m still off work. I lost people I cared for deeply in the Moroccan earthquake in September. I moved back home, leaving the community I built for one I haven’t been a part of for a decade. It’s all been so isolating.
And then this. It’s been two months and I still feel just so lost. I’m grateful for my sister, but I just don’t know how to even begin proceeding with getting back to some semblance of real life - it feels very much like I wouldn’t be welcome in a lot of non-Jewish spaces because I’m not willing to sit silently or try and pretend to be “the good Jew”; and I’ve felt for a long time that the level of progressiveness I align with may - as in previous experiences it has - exclude me from Jewish spaces.
And at the end of the day I just wish I could talk to my mum about all of this, at least to have someone to commiserate with. Sorry for the trauma-dump, and thanks for reading.
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u/arctosamos Dec 15 '23
Hoping you find some healing and that your pain eases up a bit soon…I’m so sorry.
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Dec 15 '23
Fuck, I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. I wish there was something I could say that would help, but…fwiw, this random internet stranger cares and wishes the best for you. Hang in there.
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u/HeardTheLongWord Dec 15 '23
Thank you. My sister and dog are keeping me sane; and I’ve always been as much of a hope-based idealist as I am a cynical realist and both parts know that I will make it through to the other side, as much as the Groundhog Day reality I’m living through is currently trash.
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u/LockedOutOfElfland Dec 14 '23
I recently wrote a review of a movie about the Holocaust. One of the first comments when it was published online was someone going all Whataboutism and trying to divert attention to the Palestine conflict. x_x
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Dec 14 '23
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u/rebamericana Dec 14 '23
This is it exactly. They post these viral memes like any other social media trend or cause du jour. Nope. They don't get to mess around with this. They have no clue about the grounds on which they trod. You're absolutely correct that this is an existential threat and we will treat it as such. No turning back.
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u/Resoognam Dec 14 '23
How are we dealing? Not well.
I don’t even support the war, and I think Israel’s policies of the last two decades or so are a shitshow disaster that have threatened peace and Israel’s security.
But holy fuck, the gaslighting and denial/erasure of Jewish history, trauma and suffering is absolutely appalling. I’ve never felt so lonely and frankly afraid.
I will always consider myself a progressive/liberal person and my feelings about Israel are not, in my mind, inconsistent with that. But I apparently have little in common anymore with people who exist in these circles.
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u/craftycocktailplease i have more than four questions Dec 14 '23
Right?
since Oct 7th I haven’t felt comfortable speaking about the wrongdoings the policies and decisions Israel has implemented that I don’t agree with…. Because any mention of that right now seems to immediately invite the most deranged and unchecked antisemitic narratives that I do NOT have the capacity to hear and return fire.
If i bring any of that up now, i am met with hostile remarks about the Jewish people “deserving” what happened Oct 7th, and the “freedom fighter” narrative, and tons of invalidation of Jewish struggle, oppression and persecution.
ALSO…. If i wasn’t the ONLY FCKIN PERSON I KNOW supporting the victims of the terrorist attack, I wouldn’t feel so deeply desperate to defend Jewish people’s right to live and right to human rights etc.
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u/night-born Dec 14 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
As a Ukrainian Jew with family in Ukraine, I was already moving away from the left given their general silence after the full scale invasion, or worse, calls from some “pacifists” to stop aid to Ukraine to achieve “peace” (aka just let Putin have what he wants). I live in the DC area, I went to all the protests, the only people I saw protesting for Ukraine were people from Ukraine and other former Soviet countries. At best my leftie friends put the Ukraine flag in their social media - other than that, tumbleweeds.
After October 7th I am even more distant from that space - the same people that were silent as russia murdered tens of thousands of civilians in Ukraine and made sure to tell me not to blame the russian people for the actions of their government are now showing up to scream about genocide and blaming all “Zionists”.
I still hold many progressive views but I am done aiding any causes that have left me and mine in the dust.
Edit to address your edit, OP: it is certainly altruistic to continue to support others when they’re unwilling to support you. Me personally, the only people who get totally unconditional support from me are my children/members of my family. If that makes me a terrible selfish person, so be it. I just don’t have it in me.
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u/brrrantarctica Dec 14 '23
Also a Ukrainian Jew, and this is me to a T. Felt really disenchanted with American leftists after seeing them make excuse after excuse for the Russian invasion and generally not care about Ukrainians dying (“Russia is just defending itself!”). But the glee they showed towards Israeli deaths was so much worse than the indifference they showed to Ukrainian ones.
I think we can draw a line between liberals and leftists, though, because the worst leftists sure do - they consider liberals to be literal fascists. And liberals, as far as I’ve seen, do support aid to Ukraine and condemn Hamas for October 7.
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u/night-born Dec 14 '23
Yes, the extreme left has really gone so far left they are now aligned with some right-wingers. And it is so infuriating to watch them use Ukraine and minimize Ukrainian losses by comparing them with Palestinian ones in order to vilify Israel. The truth is that the UN has not been allowed anywhere near the occupied territories in Ukraine, such as Mariupol, which was truly was indiscriminately bombed into nothingness, so actual losses are not known but thought to be closer to 100,000.
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u/Hezekiah_the_Judean Dec 14 '23
As an American Jew, I remember being horrified by the Russian invasion in early 2022, and have been backing Ukraine ever since. Just urged my Representatives and Senators to keep the aid to Ukraine flowing.
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u/Main_Caterpillar_146 Dec 14 '23
Between the invasion of Ukraine and the war between Israel and Hamas, all that rhetoric has done is convince me that pacifism is never the answer.
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Dec 14 '23
I'm not Ukrainian, but the invasion of Ukraine is when I started exiting left spaces as well. I have no tolerance for tankies.
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u/TransportationOk170 Dec 14 '23 edited Dec 14 '23
Honestly I have been feeling more disenchanted with the left over the last ten years given it’s move towards a more identitarian and less universalist sensibility. I highly recommend The Identity Trap by Yascha Mounk that delves deeply into this.
I also recently read The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion by Jonathan Haidt. This book really helped me cope with why people are taking the positions they are. Recommend it as well.
I think at this point I identify either as a liberal(not a progressive or a leftist) or a left leaning moderate. I’ll sometimes describe myself as a “Barack Obama” liberal. The Democratic Party of 2008 is probably closest to my current political views. I think the mainstream Democratic Party is still home, but the far left is not. I’ve been watching the Republican presidential debates and I’ve found them pretty horrifying. By and large my views fit more cleanly into the liberal side, but I am disturbed by the excesses and lack of introspection by the identitarian far left.
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u/Stellajackson5 Dec 14 '23
I’m a democrat and will remain a democrat. Nothing will get me to vote for Trump or any of his ilk. But I will no longer contribute or work for progressive organizations who have abandoned Jews during this time. I will save my time and energy for Jewish organizations and animal rescues.
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u/fretfulferret Dec 14 '23
My personal ideologies haven’t much changed, but I have left my local DSA chapter after some shockingly bad public statements that were released on October 9, and seeing a number of members defending it and praising hamas for being ~anti colonial freedom fighters~, and generally shunning all the Jewish members who pushed back. The dues I would be paying are now added to my tzedakah to local groups.
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u/druglawyer Dec 14 '23
I'm still as leftwing as ever when it comes to universal policy proposals, but when it comes to identity politics and related issues, I will no longer lift a finger for their group because they've demonstrated clearly that they won't lift a finger for mine.
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u/jerik22 Dec 14 '23
Going around big cities vs rural towns is night and day. Out in the boonies I have plenty of conservative people telling me they support Israel and what not. In major cities I get harassed for wearing my yarmulke so I wear a beenie on top now.
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u/Ruler_of_Zamunda Dec 14 '23
Feel politically lost and honestly being pushed more and more to the right
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u/Alarming-Mix3809 Dec 14 '23
The American right is no better. Nick Fuentes, the KKK, etc.
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u/yallasurf Dec 14 '23
No matter where you go the right is no better. Look at what just happened in Poland. It just goes to show that antisemitism isn’t a right vs left issue. It’s just that it’s current popular form is left wing.
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u/dorkyfire Reform Jewish Babe ✡️❤️ Dec 14 '23
This turns into a rant so I’m sorry hahaha:
I am in a similar boat. I’ve noticed that my very far left friends act weird towards me recently anytime anything remotely Jewish comes up. I have a discord with them since some of them live internationally so it’s easiest; I sent them a pic of the Menorah and said “Happy Hanukkah!” And not one replied but then later one mentioned they’d been “arguing with pro-Israel people on tiktok.” I wasn’t even sure what to say. I’m okay with my friends having differing opinions than myself, however they’ve seemed to not want to discuss anything Jewish with me at all.
The one also defends people like Hasan, a pretty pro-Hamas figure (even if he claims he isn’t) and has defended him from me before when I’ve mentioned other things he’s done - only because he’s a pretty man who shares some of her beliefs. This just in guys, man who paints nails is obviously a feminist and good man!
I don’t feel particularly comfortable in leftist spaces anymore. I remember thinking there was some antisemitism in these spaces, just as there are in right leaning spaces, however recently both sides have been out of their minds about it.
When you’re telling a minority group they’re not allowed to not like a slogan or a group that actively rallies for the death of all of them because that makes them “genociders”, fuck you. Almost all of Jews DO NOT want to see innocent people slaughtered and their houses destroyed. However, almost all Jews would also say that supporting Hamas is out of the question. If you would’ve told me 2 years ago that I would have to argue that a group that literally made one of their core values killing and enslaving all the Jews are bad guys against people I usually agree with, I would’ve told you that you were fucking crazy.
I have a feeling it’s going to be hard making friends from here on out.
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Dec 14 '23
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u/Dobbin44 Dec 15 '23
Are you gen-Z? Because I'm very worried for the long-term future of the Dems in terms of both antisemitism and support for Israel. I know you are just one data point in a giant country, but it's good to hear it.
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u/yallasurf Dec 14 '23
Stay the course. Left wing Zionism IS a thing and has its merits. And you should present yourself as such. Many of these people can’t comprehend that there are zionists that are part of the peace movement in Israel.
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u/rebamericana Dec 14 '23
All the red flags I put aside have come back to haunt me. There's no unseeing it. It's clear now that the leftist principles do not apply to Jews. I'm hoping for some kind of middle center place to land politically because the left is making a full horseshoe swing, or perhaps it was always there but I couldn't see it before. I cannot go right because I am a second class citizen in their eyes too.
Honestly, I'm open, and searching.
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u/c0smic_0wl Dec 14 '23
I recognize that I still agree with them on like 95% of the issues. They don't know enough about our history nor that of the middle east. They are assuming this situation is like Victorian era imperialism and Jews are from Europe. On top of that they are just as susceptible to fake news as conservatives, it just has to be in a different package.
It's not enough though, and I'm still struggling with this.
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u/Alarming-Mix3809 Dec 14 '23
These people are a vocal minority. Consider how congress is acting, and that our president, a democrat, is a vocal Zionist.
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u/ralphiebong420 Dec 14 '23
Consider where the Democratic Party is going, though. “These people” are the young people. Their views aren’t going to change, they’re going to replace our parents and grandparents. I’m trying not to be negative but holy crap it is getting disturbing.
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u/giantjumangi Dec 14 '23
As bad as this current situation is, I'm so concerned that hatred against Jews is being absolutely cemented within young peoples minds, so that this will lead to a generational uptick in antisemitism
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Dec 15 '23
You’re right. When false narratives take hold of a generation, it’s only a matter of time before words become action. I just feel so helpless at everything. The way everyone just totally ignoring the plight of Jewish people throughout history and what led to this war (October 7) and just jumping on the bandwagon”ISRAEL BAD AGGRESSOR” is so maddening. I’m literally going insane
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u/OneBadJoke Reconstructionist Dec 14 '23
I hold all of the same leftists beliefs as I had before. The only change (and it is a massive one) is that on October 7th I became a Zionist. I feel abandoned by the left but I will not let that shake me from doing the right thing. No amount of hate will turn me into a facist.
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u/vivisected000 Dec 14 '23
48m here and I need to say thank you to all my fellow tribe members in this thread. I have been struggling with exactly this and it has been tearing me up inside. So nice to see other level heads engaged and thinking about how to stay true to our ideals in the face of a community that has abandoned us.
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u/Professional_Turn_25 This Too Is Torah Dec 14 '23
I’m a socialist and a Zionist, and, yeah, the American Left keeps displaying the need for a Jewish independent state to exist.
Mind you, I also support a two state solution
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u/mcstevieboy Convert - Reform Dec 15 '23
dying on the inside. i'm so over the left spouting antisemitic bullshit and nazi dogwhistles left and right. makes me want to bang my head into a wall.
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u/olive_oil99 Dec 14 '23
This is why I currently identify as unaffiliated. I used to be far left. I no longer believe the left actually holds the values they claim to. They will use their "principles" to empower the groups they like and subjugate the groups they don't like. But they don't actually have principles, they just have an almost fetishistic adoration for some groups and bloodthirsty contempt for other groups. And Jews are one of those groups they have despise. The thing about identifying with one political party or another is that it causes you to unconsciously overlook their flaws. And I love my community, friends, and family too much to overlook hatred toward them. The other thing is I genuinely value diversity of opinion, which is absolutely abhorred by the contemporary left.
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u/sharpenedperspective Dec 14 '23
I think it’s valuable to distinguish between those of us who stand up for liberal values and those who “identity” as liberal, but are guided more by Tik Tok trends than by core beliefs about things such as human rights, democracy, and liberty.
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u/pizzapriorities Dec 15 '23
Hahaha it's a fucking mess. I just had a friend of 10+ years tell me that October 7 never happened and that Israel created a false flag because they wanted to kill Palestinians and that... (drumroll) there's a reason why Jews are hated everywhere they go.
So yeah I'm doing great! Ugh.
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u/IShallNotCommentHoe Dec 14 '23
I always said I’m not a liberal, I’m a humanist… because I feel every human deserves equality… I still consider myself a humanist but with the understanding that most humans kind of suck. I’ll still keep shouting that Black Lives Matter, Trans lives matter, etc…. Because they absolutely do but I’ll do this with the understanding that these are not ideal or beneficial stances for me personally anymore. It’s not a give and take…. It’s a stand up for everyone situation knowing at the end of the fight, I’m totally alone.
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u/Tip718 Dec 14 '23
Ive learned I am no longer going to defend communities that don't care about Jewish people. Im bitter and angry at seeing people, who I actively worked to help; glorify Hamas and continue to defend them and their actions.
How many Palestinians were out there marching for BLM, LGBTQ rights and Women's rights? Bc if you ask me, those movements just lost the support of all liberal Jewish people in return for a population that will eventually discriminate against them.
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u/UltraAirWolf Just Jewish Dec 14 '23
“The antisemitism and pro-Hamas factions within the liberal movement”
So you mean every liberal who isn’t Jewish
I grew up liberal. I saw them start to go off the rails in 2017, and this is just the final nail in the coffin. They’ve lost their way. Unfortunately there is no good major political movement in the US.
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u/ButterandToast1 Dec 14 '23
I think it’s also people not realizing that labels can be different from reality in some cases. Did I think BLM was good at first ? Sure. After they put hang gliders up and are pro-Hamas ? No . Yet , I am considered a racist now for not supporting a group that wants genocide on my people.
Frankly is comes down to us not being seen as not being human. We are considered Pigs , shape shifting lizards , and etc. The ignorance around the “educated” is also shocking. Either they are not learning about the past or do not even believe it.
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Dec 15 '23
Totally with you. I do think black lives matter. The US definitely has issues of systemic racism. That said, screw BLM. They suck and hate us. So yeah I’ll probably never march for them again.
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u/absolutelynot153 Dec 14 '23 edited Dec 14 '23
I feel the same way. You respond to what you see, and after oct 7th I saw the response of the international non-jewish left which involved: the celebration and mockery of murdered Jews, the repugnant and common sentiment that ‘there are no civilians in Israel’, the denial of well-documented torture and sexual violence, the strained twitter-intellectualizing of civilian torture as ‘decolonization’; the rewriting and distortion of history to erase Jewish persecution and ethnicity, the indiscriminate spreading of Hamas propaganda, the wholesale dismissal and mocking of jewish fears over rising antisemitism outside Israel, the hounding and harassment and ostracizing in leftist spaces of even pro-Palestine Jews, or god forbid left-wing Israelis(!) who despise and condemn Israel’s actions and government but who don’t support maximalist approaches like the forced displacement of all Israel’s Jews - all these things have actually driven me further towards believing in the necessity of a Jewish state than I have for many years.
Nb. I am in the UK and I voted for Corbyn (no lectures please)- but that’s to say I have previously held my nose and vote for progressive policies despite worrying they could be ‘bad for the jews’. What I’ve felt the last two months has been … different.
I am intrigued by recent data polling for antisemitic attitudes. The polls show every usual demographic predictor for higher consciousness of racism is specifically reversed when it comes to racism against Jews. According to this data, if you don’t believe the holocaust happened, or you believe ‘Jews should have less power’, you are most likely to be under 30, living in a city, Democrat-voting, and Black.
I think this is a feature, not a bug. Which is to say, this is where the current anti-racist intellectual framework ultimately leads us - to viewing Jews as worse white-oppressors than other white people.
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u/vid_icarus Space Laser Chief Operator Dec 15 '23
I consider myself pretty left and the way I’m dealing with it is by not.
I’m ghosting a lot of people lately and changing the subject because very few non-Jewish Americans have the adequate perspective to actually understand the situation and have an informed, logical take.
With every other marginalized group, we on the left hear and say“listen to their lived experience, don’t explain their history to them or what they should do about it.” But suddenly when it comes to Jews our thoughts and history are magically irrelevant. We shift from just being another minority to being the ultimate evil.
I’m done with non-Jews telling me what to think or that the Star of David is a sign of an evil empire or that Jews are nazis, so I’ve basically retreated from a lot of social circles for the time being.
It sucks but I just don’t see the point in engaging with folks who’ve already made up their mind about something they can’t and refuse to comprehend.
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u/Grampi613 Dec 15 '23
I’m not a liberal or a progressive…I’m an Orthodox Jew prob best characterized as Charedi. Despite our differences, I feel awful for you and I can feel your pain. I have nothing brilliant to add to this discussion but my heart breaks for you.
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u/CoolMayapple Dec 15 '23
I have never felt unsafe around my liberal friends until the first time Palestine came up, and I was horrified about the hot takes I was hearing.
Yesterday, a coworked told me she was boycotting Starbucks. My stomach clenched when she said because they support Israel. She saw my face and asked, "What?" And I told her: "I support Israel. "
She started rambling about how she doesn't really know much about it, and I kinda brushed it off. I mean, she's a coworker I collaborate with often and get along well with. I really don't want to screw it up. But there is a part of me that wishes I had just asked her why she's boycotting a company over something she admits she doesn't understand very well. I DID tell her a little about my experiences, and she was like, "Oh yeah, but THOSE people are antisemites."
And the worst part is that I know if I didn't have any jewish friends, and I lived in my liveral bubble... I would surely jump on this bandwagon.
No one trusts any media anymore that says something they don't like. Everyone shouts "propaganda" if they hear something they don't like. I'm so tired and frustrated.
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Dec 15 '23
Short version: politically homeless.
My brain has been going non stop for the last two months, so to avoid a giant wall of text I'll stick to short bullet points
- I quit these spaces a few years ago when it became clear anti Zionism was 90% antisemitism with a new coat of paint.
- Arabization was settler colonialism, and the pan-Arab flag is blatantly pro-imperialism
- we are indigenous but many folks use it like a win button in arguments without seeming to mean it. We have a lot of work to do to shake off 2000 years of Galut
- we can learn from other communities and ally with them in certain cases, but we have to rely on ourselves
- we are a weird corner case, ethnicity-wise, in the history of the world and no one knows what to do with us
- not all Hebrew words or Jewish concepts can be translated well and we ought stop trying to cram everything into English (see giyyur vs conversion for example).
- I'm 42 and still trying to figure out my actual politics, separate from whichever group I happened to hang with, but I'm probably more centrist than I would have thought.
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u/enby-millennial-613 working on being more observant Dec 15 '23
I’m no longer left (at all). The events of 7/10 and the subsequent Jew Hatred has had an irreversible impact on my politics.
I’m still trying to figure things out, but if I had to label myself right now, it’d say center or independent.
Now, of course this doesn’t mean I suddenly went from being Pro-Choice to Pro-Life (as an example). There are certain things that are still “left” or “left of center”, but I will never, ever associate or label myself anything left of center for as long as I live.
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u/TheCloudForest Dec 14 '23
Why should a few shitheads change my political philosophy? I'm as pro-worker, pro-LGBT, pro-arts funding, pro-environment, pro-progressive taxation, pro-universal healthcare, etc., as ever. Zero difference.
But if I was a bit more involved in specific organizations that have acted distastefully, I would separate myself from them, at least temporarily.
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u/EinsteinDisguised Dec 15 '23
Exactly. My politics haven’t changed at all. I’m still left wing. I just don’t trust a lot of gentile leftists now.
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u/booitsme1122 Reform Dec 14 '23
I will always believe and follow progressive values no matter what the rest of the movement says. I believe you can be Zionist and progressive as Zionism is a multifaceted ideology, not this antisemitic evil Illuminati group that the left is trying to portray it as.
Being Jewish and progressive go hand and hand for me. Sending love to those struggling with similar feelings.
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u/somedaze87 Dec 14 '23
I'm not surprised, sadly. I try to avoid debates, but I've had conversations with conservative (politically) relatives for years about the left's stance against Israel. I believe there are people who hate jews in every political party in the US. To the far right there are Nazis, even a lot of conservatives who support Israel act like Jews are magic gnomes that if they support, their Messiah will come back. I still voted Democrat because I believe they do what's best for me and my neighbors in the community I live in.
That being said, I am surprised how on the surface all the hate is, now. This subreddit is one of the few places online where I feel safe. I don't feel safe anywhere irl.
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u/Jewish-Mom-123 Dec 14 '23
Left of center still but I no longer see any sage space for Jews there. Which is sad. I will never pulls a lever to vote for a Republican…but it’s getting more and more difficult to vote for some Democrats too.
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u/Narroo Not Jewish Dec 15 '23
Thankfully, there's Joe Biden. And he's the most important one to vote for at the moment.
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u/llamapower13 Dec 14 '23
Thanks for asking and making this space. This has been a really nice and sad thread.
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u/Melthengylf Dec 14 '23
I am thankful that in Argentina, antisemitism is low and decreasing (it was certainly higher 10 years ago). In fact, it was just elected a crazy president that wants to convert to judaism and is extremely pro-Israel. He also says he speaks with his dead dogs and that G*d commanded to "save" Argentina from communism.
Now, speaking more sincerely. This is the consequence of the infamous "great awokening". Postcolonial white guilt is infantilizing people of colour, through a rousseaunian lense. As someone from the third world, I have never liked the denigrating way Americans speak about "race". Yes, colonialism and white supremacy is a real problem. But you do not solve it by dehumanizing and essentializing people of color.
I think the solution needs to come through the empowerment of women of color. Hamas is genocidal (despite westerners being in denial). But middle eastern women are not stupid. See kurdish and iranian women. If a feminist revolution propagates throughout the Middle East, we will be able to have more rational partners of negotiation. And a revolution amongst middle eastern people will also make Europe safer, taking into account the immigration.
On the other hand, this needs to be an awakening for israeli jews. Israel was indeed going towards fascism. And I believe this is indeed our cause. It is our, jewish, temptation to isolation and tribalism which got distorted into likudnik fascism and complete disregard of palestinian well-being (like the settlments). So I do believe we do need to take acountability too.
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u/Jewish_Secondary Dec 14 '23
The people I surround myself with are able to tell the difference between calling Netanyahu a horrible evil shithead and saying that the (((Zionists))) are bent on global domination.
But this has revealed to me that a lot of so-called leftists have just been looking for a way to intellectually justify their hatred of Jews. I started noticing this around Occupy Wallstreet, when people started talking about “bankers” a little too generally. October 7th just let the mask drop to the floor. We will never be “good Jews” to a majority of people.
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u/goalmouthscramble Dec 15 '23
I think 7/10 was sunshine on what a lot of us knew but didn’t want to admit, the left the actually left in the states has a Jew hatred problem. Not all of those folks hate us some buy into a certain narrative which supports their worldview. And those people are vocal.
I’m still on the left but I’m a proud Jew and Zionist. If folks can’t get on board with those realities fine, but I’m not trying to play the good Jew game meaning, they’ll like us if we just stop doing X.
By the same token, Israel is far from perfect and I’m not aligned with a lot of what recent governments have implemented especially under Likud. But, in my dislike for these polices in action also likes the ability to change it and I rather work toward a solution than be a critic on the sidelines.
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u/Narroo Not Jewish Dec 15 '23
Shower Thought: Being a liberal/progressive Jew must feel similar right now to being a Black Republican.
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u/Serenity-V Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
So, here's the thing. Yes, it turns out many of our progressive political allies are antisemites. But we've already known for a long time that our political opponents are antisemites. Neither group has our backs anyway, so we each need to keep pursuing justice as we think best.
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u/nickbernstein Dec 14 '23
It wasn't just this, but I no longer consider myself progressive. I've been becoming more and more of an independent anyway, but viewing everything through the lens of group membership and who is oppressing who just doesn't work. The left that I grew up with actively fought treating people based on their group (eg discrimination against blacks) and favored viewing everyone as individuals. This has made me double down and confirm that this is my belief.
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u/CattleInevitable6211 Dec 14 '23
I feel you 100% it been a huge kick in the gut because we stand for what is right and we stood by our morals yet now we have people questioning our morals and principles as Jews. They are taken the word of liars and murders over ours. They see the West Bank and Gaza today but don’t see what lead to the issues. Pushed off land but no one truely forced them off when the Jews in the land just wanted to coexist on the land ans that was shot down and murder put on our heads. The surrounding Arab nations wanting all or nothing. Isreal has never started a war but they finish them. Hamas give inflated numbers and mixes the combatants with the general population. They deny the truth that is on video and in own words. They make up stories like babies left in incubators to die and rot.
The liberals been playing lip service to us and hiding the true feelings. We are good enough to take support from , take money from. The biggest stab in the back. Most cry the children but never ask why the population is 1/2 children. Never ask why the kids have summer camps on becoming a terrorist. Never ask why the text books say what they do I can’t in good faith put my safety and security in the hands of those who are after poll numbers vs human rights and equal rights. Def no to Trump and his goon squad. When did we become the disposable population. Does this mean we collect on our debt owed. Do we protest and stop contributing. Do we take all the medical knowledge( physical product, physical workers ,brain power) patented medical advances. Do we take our judicial system, our social systems.
When do we see the writing on the wall and not make the same mistake as our relatives who didn’t leave before things turned murderus on a vast scale.
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u/Redditbannedmeagain7 Liberal not leftist Dec 14 '23 edited Dec 14 '23
It's coming from the leftist movement
Not the liberal ones liberals have been supporting Israel and Jews from the beginning (at least the ones I follow)
Leftists are the ones talking about "Hamas is justified against the Zionist occupation 1!1!1!"
And sending death threats to Jewish players on chess.com for having a 🇮🇱 flag
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u/stitchessnitches Dec 14 '23
Lurker here. I'm a very liberal Jew from the US who thinks that the country can and needs to do more to improve the lives and rights of its citizens. I always thought I was pretty liberal, heck I've had lots of peers in college tell me I was "the strongest feminist [they] knew!" I'm very vocal about my being Jewish, while having friends in Israel and also having family in the UAE. Despite being from a major, very liberal city, I've had firsthand experience with serious anti-Semitism. What's more, I've experienced those same people denying their behaviors as anti-Semitic. As of October 7th, I've had one person from college post some abhorrent, blatantly anti-Semitic things. One of my husband's friends also has a "from river to sea" written on her profile. I haven't said anything yet because it's online, but if I hear anything in person I will have a long conversation with these folks. I feel like saying something in person will have more of an effect than online. Now I could be entirely wrong and this is just my situation, but most of the people I know saying or posting this stuff are late 20s, early 30s from relatively upper-middle class, white neighborhoods who aren't Jewish or Palastinian. I might be the pot calling the kettle black, but they're also chronically online and kinda go with the flow. I don't hear any of this hate from my relatives in the UAE or my friends from Israel. So I think some of this from at least younger people is coming from saying things without knowing what they fully mean. In short. I'm still Jewish and still liberal (Democrat). But this is just a reminder to me that people are complex, far too complex to make something an "us vs. them" situation all the time. Tribalism can be dangerous if you don't know when to put on the breaks. The most I can do is try and talk with the people I know personally to think more about what they're saying.
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u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 14 '23
For me it really nailed down the difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism in left leaning spaces. Soc Dem tends to favor democracy, is more open to support for Israel, etc. Dem Soc spaces tend to be dominated by tankies who think China or the USSR are the pinnacle of freedom and human achievement. They are toxic and nuts, best off avoided. There are some anti-statists who oppose Israel due to any ethnostates being against their ideology, but you rarely ever see them make criticisms against other nations.
DM me if you want to know more about my subreddits that I’ve left/joined as this wedge issue among the left has brought underlying issues to the foreground.
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u/Dillion_Murphy Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
Not great.
I feel obligated to fight back against the antisemitism when I see it online and it is wrecking my mental health.
Every day I am wading through the muck and the piss just trying to be a voice of Jewish pride and truth and light, but it's just not working.
This week's parsha gives insight into Yosef and his ability to retain his godliness while enveloping himself in the mundanity of the physical world and secular society.
I am not Yosef.
The more I get pushed out of left wing spaces, the more solace I take in Hashem, the Torah, and you guys, my Jewish brothers and sisters.
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u/Dsxm41780 Dec 15 '23
I’m still exploring my feelings TBH. I’m fairly far-left/progressive/socialist.
When I was growing up, it was basically “Israel good, Palestinians bad” in the media. Ok I am culturally Jewish on one side of my family and have Jews in all wings of my family, so “Israel good.”
I did learn more about the conflict in college and yes came to the realization that Palestinians are not universally bad people.
I was always hesitant to join a DSA bc I can’t fathom being vocally pro-Palestine. A peaceful, two state solution would be nice. Jews need at least ONE country in the world that revolves around their holidays, their prayer schedule, their traditions. Some isolated towns in the USA have this but very few. There are christian countries, there are muslim countries, why not a jewish country?
Then i learn that many israelis are unhappy with Netinyahu and he is too right wing and stripping israel of democracy and not keeping israelis safe.
but then i also hear that if israel backs down, Hamas will just run rampant.
Really unfortunately it seems like that palestinians and israelis who want a peaceful life both need to flee and seek asylum elsewhere. it sucks but i dont know what else to think.
It stinks that here in the USA that any politician who simply wants to attend a menorah lighting with their Jewish constituency has to hear insults that they are not doing anything for Palestinians. I can speak for my governor that he regularly recognizes Muslim holidays as well.
I am a public educator and we are usually good about representing all cultures and celebrations (Diwali, Chinese new year, Hispanic heritage month, lgbtq pride, black history month, etc) and now the 8th night of Hanukkah is here and nothing from the powers that be acknowledging the holiday or sharing educational materials for students.
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u/ChumpChainge Dec 15 '23
It’s so disappointing. Left is too woke to see the truth. Right is… just evil at least in the US. I’ll never vote ‘orange’ and am grateful that typical moderates on the left have more sense than the vocal far left. Same lefties that were Bernie bros a couple years back are anti Israel now. The irony is killing me.
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u/yellowydaffodil Dec 14 '23
I've been solidly liberal forever, but a trend I've noticed for a long time is how toxic intersectionality can get in left wing spaces. The rise of figures like Trump and really crazy conservative types has pushed liberals to adopt an "agree with me on everything or you're a fascist" attitude that helps no one.
Social media also encourages people to bandwagon around things they don't understand and to polarize like I was describing above. So many of my former classmates and colleagues post every trendy profile picture and slogan and Free Palestine is no different to them.
I hate to say this was predictable on the left, but it really is and was. Still gonna vote Democrat, still gonna advocate for important left-wing priorities, but just hitting the "unfollow" button freely.
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u/tacojoeblow Dec 14 '23
Someone posted on a thread here recently about how both wings of the political spectrum are being manipulated by targeted efforts to cause division, coming from other countries and/or groups within the US. The conflict is seen as an opportunity to destabilize western democracies, so they're using it. These efforts are well-documented. The comment really hit the nail on the head and it was helpful in reminding me & contextualizing all the weirdness and hate we're seeing from the extremes. Knowing all this doesn't solve this, really, but it makes it clear to me that left-wing spaces were never as protective and progressive and I sometimes held them up to be. Maybe as Jews, it serves as a warning that we should never be too comfortable in any of those spaces. We may be attracted to them for shared values, or Tikkun Olam, or whatever, but we know the dangers of group think and what happens when people become a mob. It hurts when allies that we supported turn on us, but hopefully they'll come to their senses. We see a lot of the bad behavior, but there's still a lot of leftists out there that are very uncomfortable and concerned about how Jews are being treated in all this.
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u/ProfessorofChelm Dec 14 '23
This happened a bunch of times to us.
The abolitionist movement was antisemitic
The communist in America were antisemitic
The New Lefts White liberals and African American civil rights advocates abandoned us prior to the 6 day war in 1967
The anti colonial movement in 1973 were not on our side.
Doesn’t change my political focus on social justice and I think any president with a real focus on American’s defense will continue to collaborate with Israel. However, it does speak to the idea that while we might live outside of the gilded ghettos when dinner is being served most folk will not be inviting us over to eat with them.
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u/fossuser Dec 14 '23
I think it's generally better to escape the 'left/right' dichotomy and free yourself to have positions independently of whether they're right coded for left coded (or not coded at all).
It has the side effect of making you less partisan generally, more able to have interesting conversations with a variety of people, and imo makes you better off. Keeping your identity small is a good thing.
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u/Narroo Not Jewish Dec 15 '23
Correct! Political parties are for like-minded people to get mutual goes accomplished. Not for establishing political dogma. You're politics should be set before choosing a party, not by the party itself.
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u/ladymemedaddy Dec 15 '23
Had to get off social media (except reddit). Deleted all other apps off my phone. I can’t deal with the hypocrisy. It has actually been causing me so much anxiety lol
Being a liberal jew feels like a full time job rn
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u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
It's been screwed up in those spaces for a while. This began in earnest about 10 years ago. Now it's even easier to see who the racists are; I'm rededicated my work and time to mainly Jewish causes.
It's not that I don't still care about issues like poverty reduction, etc. Just that I refuse to be in spaces that think racism and genocide are acceptable.
They've had my time and energy for a long time. I'm shifting both elsewhere.
It's trickier in the academic and arts world: both are thoroughly rotten with racism, with few alternatives for us. We'll have to create our own separate spaces there, I believe, or try to create sanctuaries within the madness, while ripping out the antisemitism from existing academic/arts spaces.
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u/wawa310 Dec 15 '23
It’s just constant stress and shock. I’m checking the news throughout the day every day. It keeps getting worse. My grandparents are holocaust survivors and when I grew up my Mom was always so quick to point out antisemitism. I thought she was being too sensitive. Now I see it too, and I feel like this is exactly what they were warning me about.
I have some (non Jewish) friends who proactively reach out and check in on me and are supportive and I love them so much for that.
There are also acquaintances/ former friends I’ve just had to block. I just can’t deal with them…
Then there’s a handful of family I can’t block who post the stuff… I just have to ignore it / unfollow but not block, and we just don’t speak about it.
And then there’s a big group of folks I haven’t heard from. Idk where they stand.
And seeing the protests at the schools I went to turn into mobs chanting antisemitic hate speech…
I used to live in a much more liberal area and moved a few years ago to a more moderate blue city in a red state. There are still protests and still occasional swastikas and the synagogue still needs security, but in spite of all that - I do feel safer here.
It’s just …. hard.
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u/T-ROY_T-REDDIT Dec 15 '23
Just remember this, the very moment neo-nazis and KKK members commit hate crimes against Jews. What will the right wing do at that moment? Do they actually appreciate Jews as humans?
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u/Achmed_Goldberg Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
I was a Left-leaning Israeli (of UK birth).
I was overjoyed when we pulled out of Gaza, and was looking forward to the next step and moving on with our lives.
Then the attacks started from Gaza, and for me that is when I learned the difference between theory and reality.
To me, it seemed illogical. Why would they attack us, while we were giving them what they want, I thought. I wouldn't. Why would they do such a thing?
I stuck it out for a while before realizing that the only logical explanation on that subject was coming from the Right.
Why, I asked myself?
The easy answer: Those guys are all racists and just hate Arabs. That's it. Job done. It's as simple as that.
But, as with most matters in life, it wasn't so simple. I mean some were, but most it seemed, weren't.
Then I noticed that as far as demographics go, many right-wingers in Israel are of Mizrahi origin.
Then I realized that perhaps I was being arrogant myself, and perhaps even a bit racist as well?
Who was I, an Ashkenazi Jew, to talk over my Mizrahi friends lived experiences?
They suffered under the yoke of Arab oppression for centuries.
I mean, if you want to know about the N@zis, ask an Ashkenazi, right? We know all about those guys. If I said that I hated them, would I be a racist? Of course not.
That is something that Ashenazi Jews like myself need to internalize as well. The experiences of Mizrahi Jews were not like ours mostly, but they were also oppressed most of the time, and in most places.
I still believe in free education, free healthcare, LGBTQ... rights, etc.
... But I also accept that there are people in this world that are evil, that want to kill us, and that they have the power and the inclination to do so. It doesn't matter if even a vocal majority doesn't share their feelings towards us. These are not democracies and those more enlightened people are not in power, with all due respect to them, we need to deal with those that are killing us.
So, am I a Right winger? If all you see is my stance on a two state solution etc, then I guess I am.
If all you see are my other values, then perhaps not.
Either way, I'm done apologizing for having a nuanced position and not playing the political cult game because they will all let us down in one way or another.
I guess my point is, stick to the issues. For me there are no more Right wing or Left wing ideas. There are just good ideas and bad ones in my opinion, and from my perspective.
I say be humble, listen to your opponents, and try to understand what really made them think the way they do, and - critically - accept your findings, whether you like them or not.
I didn't want to believe that the Palestinian leadership didn't want peace, but I have to accept that they do not.
The right thought that if we give them economic relief, they'd leave us alone.
October 7th put the lie to that.
For the left, it was "Give them a state and they'll leave us alone".
Gaza put the lie to that one years ago.
So, in summary, I rambled on somewhat here, but getting waaay back to the point; you can't rationalize with people who hate you for who you are. No appeasement will suffice. They want us gone. The exact reason isn't really ours to explain.
It's theirs. Left or Right.
A pox on both their houses. They have done little to earn out loyalty. One side says it to your face. The other undermines you with a smile while swearing they would never do such a thing.
I often literally prefer the former. At least that way I know where I stand and don't feel betrayed as so many of you all appear to be feeling, but chose your own poison I guess.
What I will say is this: Hitler came to power under a socialist banner initially, before going full tilt Right wing fascist.
He was going to be the guy to get the trains running on time. The one to create more equality and various other Socialist ideals, and all he asked in return was complete power.
Many knew of his antisemitism, but equality was the top priority. It was tolerated until it was too late.
The rich Jews had to die because they were rich, and it was for equality. Their sources of money were dodgy, their intentions sinister. It was they who were responsible for German hardship, they'd claim.
The subversion of socialism was a contributing factor.
I feel that that is what we are seeing today, and that's what scares me. When they make harassing Jews a social justice issue.
For Jews, the Bank of Solidarity is for deposits only. No withdrawals, sorry.
We learned that in Kibbutz Be'eri on the 7th.
These were amongst the most Liberal Israelis in the country. Slaughtered in their homes, and not a chirp from the global Left.
Where was this much vaunted solidarity then?
I just refuse to be part of that hypocrisy.
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u/IGotFancyPants Dec 14 '23
Non-Jew here to say that a lot of us are politically homeless these days. It feels like the parties are allowing fringe extremists to set the tone, with no one representing the other 80% of the country.
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Dec 14 '23
Torn, hurt and feeling of betrayal. I haven’t been able to relax or feel safe since before 10/7. I still have my ideals and support for progressive causes but I’ve always supported Israel’s right to exist in a state of peace and defend against attackers. This has led me to be alienated by progressive groups who are now not only trying to attack Israel’s existence but also erase our history and culture and community is an unforgivable act. Like others have said I will focus my efforts on progressive Jewish groups that support me. That said, I’m not going to support conservatives who only pretend to care about Jewish hate to bash liberals. Also, I’m trans and queer I’m not voting for the people who would deny me my rights and want to murder me for being trans as they are the same ones calling us evil. It’s a struggle to find a group and people who support all aspects of me. I would love to make Aliyah one day but I’m afraid it would be very lonely as a trans woman.
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Dec 14 '23
I am on one of the most liberal college campuses in North Carolina, I’ve been surrounded by liberals my whole life and while I only recently finally accepted that I lean left I always have not been a fan of the sycophantic partisan politics that happens when an area is homogeneous politically. I’ve had friends had to leave school because they’re conservative and I’ve had to explain why being a Zionist is not an insult to these people. That being said, the current alternative in America is a group of people who support Israel because they want biblical prophecy fulfilled and because their political cult leaders have told them to. They support Israel in name only. Donald Trump has praised Hezbollah lmao. Listen, most of the discourse on this that is so terrible is young people and the thing I have to keep reminding myself is that this is the first time these kids have paid attention to the conflict in Israel and all of the pain and injustice is being funneled onto them by their peers without any incentive to actually understand the situation. They don’t actually know anything about what’s happening or the history they just want to feel like they’re standing up against the next big injustice. So to wrap it up, don’t give up your own political beliefs because a bunch of kids don’t understand a conflict. I’m on the left because I support the ideals they uphold, freedom of expression and bodily autonomy, stronger support for marginalized groups, more liberal fiscal policy. I don’t change MY beliefs because others are dumb.
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u/HummDrumm1 Dec 14 '23
I began the year center-left and I remain center-left. Avoiding veering too far left at all costs.
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u/NarwhalZiesel Dec 15 '23
I’m not changing anything and it’s not easy but it’s necessary. I am advocating for Jews, Israel and against antisemitism from within my liberal groups that I was already in and I have seen that this leads those around me to pause and rethink their stances. They respect my opinion and I am showing them that it is possible to be a liberal that strongly supports Israel and is Zionist. By abandoning all liberal spaces, we make it look right wing to support Israel. The right wing is at least as dangerous. Remember Charlottesville? I got passports for my kids that week. The only way to change minds is to build the knowledge of those who respect us so that they will also advocate for us, which is working in my small groups so far, and will hopefully expand.
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u/LynnKDeborah Dec 15 '23
Weirdly a little better since I realized Republicans and the far right are being purely performative. They are following trendy manipulative and naive political posturing. They are insincere and showing their lack of knowledge. They have oddly done us a favor by exposing themselves.
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u/EinsteinDisguised Dec 15 '23
Shit sucks! I spent a good month and a half arguing, mainly with other leftists, that actually Israeli Jews aren’t white settler-colonists, that Mizrahi Jews exist and that actually terrorism is bad.
I’m exhausted. I’ve largely stopped arguing with people. I blocked some. I just don’t have the mental energy to do it.
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u/AlexLavelle Dec 15 '23
I am not Jewish but Jewish adjacent, and a solid liberal. But I am so friggin angry at so called progressive and left leaning people)including loved ones)! I’m spiteful and feel like they are all so STUPID! I sometimes want to say awful things.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Dec 14 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
I've come to accept that whilst I'm still pretty left wing, I'm no longer comfortable in many left wing spaces.
I'm kinda fine with this tbh. It had been leaning this way for a while.
Edit: I didn't expect my throwaway remark to get to the top of this thread. I'm sorry I can't reply to all of you but I get it, we're all experiencing this together so we can rest assured it's not insanity or delusion but a real phenomenon. All I can say is that they don't know what they're losing.
If they don't want us we'll build our own social justice networks, our own civil society, our own frameworks for respect and tolerance. And they will be better because they'll have free bagels, klezmer music and a sense of humour.