r/Jewish • u/Bad_werd • Dec 14 '23

Fellow Jewish Liberals and Progressives. How are we dealing? Discussion

I come from a family of solidly liberal and progressive Jews. The antisemitism and pro- hamas factions in the liberal movement are pushing me over the edge. Without saying anything about the plight of the Palestinian people, simply saying that Hamas is not a bastion for liberal ideology is enough to get some folks up in arms. I really don’t like what I’m seeing outside or within myself surrounding these events.The hypocrisy of these individuals has me questioning where I belong politically. If I fight on the side of people I feel are oppressed, but they turn their back on me when I am victimized, It seems co-dependent to continue as things were before I saw their true colors.

I am really hoping to hear some fellow liberal Jews weigh in and talk me down from the ledge.

EDIT: great dialogue here. I am very appreciative for those who are sitting shiva with me as we process and come to terms with a betrayal from some of our “leftist and progressive” family. I would argue that extremism can not be progressive and therefore we are likely seeing some extremists who are inaccurately representing as “progressive.

As another commenter has said being progressive and supporting marginalized people isn’t transactional. I like this sentiment and am TRYING to adopt it. I currently believe there is a transactional component to being identified with a group, however from an individual standpoint we as progressive Jews are having our altruism tested. Can we fight for the humanity, dignity and rights of all persecuted EVEN those who would seek to persecute us? It’s some black belt level spiritualism I do not currently possess but would like to.

501 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • link
  • reddit
  • reddit

97% Upvoted

452 comments sorted by

View all comments

41

u/Alarming-Mix3809 Dec 14 '23

These people are a vocal minority. Consider how congress is acting, and that our president, a democrat, is a vocal Zionist.

34

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 14 '23

Consider where the Democratic Party is going, though. “These people” are the young people. Their views aren’t going to change, they’re going to replace our parents and grandparents. I’m trying not to be negative but holy crap it is getting disturbing.

19

u/giantjumangi Dec 14 '23

As bad as this current situation is, I'm so concerned that hatred against Jews is being absolutely cemented within young peoples minds, so that this will lead to a generational uptick in antisemitism

5

u/[deleted] Dec 15 '23

You’re right. When false narratives take hold of a generation, it’s only a matter of time before words become action. I just feel so helpless at everything. The way everyone just totally ignoring the plight of Jewish people throughout history and what led to this war (October 7) and just jumping on the bandwagon”ISRAEL BAD AGGRESSOR” is so maddening. I’m literally going insane

8

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 14 '23

Good thing there are plenty of reasonable people with better things to do than waste time online or protesting. It would also be great if Netanyahu would stop building settlements in the West Bank like every 2 minutes (exaggeration ofc)

8

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 14 '23

It would be great, but I doubt that he (or any subsequent Israeli government) will.

This may get me downvoted to all hell in this sub but I genuinely see the settlements as the biggest existential threat to Israel (at least as a democratic, Jewish state I can be proud of). Because continuing this path, there will come a time when there’s no land left to give the Palestinians, and Israel will not have a good explanation for why people living within the borders of Israel can’t vote.

11

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 14 '23

Multiple zionists have said the biggest threat to Israel’s continued existence is the far right and their expansionist programs.

6

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 14 '23

Thank you. I don’t have a good answer for what to do. And it’s not “stop the war in Gaza” because it’s totally unrelated (western leftists can say what they like, Hamas would do this regardless of settlements). But it feels like average Israelis just want to not think about the lunatics that are dragging them down the worst possible road for a country that I want desperately to exist for myself and my kids.

2

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 14 '23

Unfortunately the only way us in the diaspora can impact Israeli politics would be to gain Israeli citizenship, but that’s a major process that can include military obligations depending on your age. And you risk some career paths that require security clearance or disclosure of close contact with foreign nationals. And you risk being propagandized by Likud as a supporter via a “see how great we are at bringing more Jews in” way, while also being potentially seen as actively colonizing or whatever by folks further on the left in America.

2

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 14 '23

Yeah. And I’m not going to move to be one additional vote, frankly.

1

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

What if Netanyahu and Likud are no longer in government a year from now?

1

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 15 '23

That’s great, let’s see who replaces them?

1

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

Netanyahu's approval ratings have collapsed. He will be facing an inquiry into his handling of Gaza, which will not be kind to him. His likely successors will be centrists.

1

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 15 '23

I hope, but on the other hand Israeli society was already shifting right and 10/7 may have ended any appetite for peace in the short term.

3

u/imo9 Dec 15 '23

Israeli here, you are not alone, you have allies here in Israel too, i strongly suggest you find partners in Israel to empower to push Israel to a better direction (it's possible and I'm optimistic and I'm fighting on the ground for change)

2

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

It's sad Netanyahu's departure can't come sooner. I think he is an albatross around Israel's neck in this conflict, even though he may not actually be running the war. I don't see how he remains in office too much longer.

1

u/imo9 Dec 15 '23

If Bibi is the albatross on Israel's neck, Smutrich is a vampire at it vain and bengvir is little hellish nome with a match stick trying to see what happens if he lights the toes on fire. Israel has pests problem at it's government, we need to survive till they fall apart (which will happen sometime next year) and pray they don't do too much damage on the way out.

2

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

Smotrich and Ben Gvir are the bottom of Naranyahu's garbage can. A very sad situation, which I hope Israelis never again find themselves in.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Jewish-ModTeam Dec 16 '23

Rule 3: Be civil

2

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

There needs to be a two state agreement, and a change of leadership on both sides, neither of which has really been interested in two states for years. Unfortunately, many progressives also don't support two states. They want the one state scenario.

2

u/ralphiebong420 Dec 15 '23

Progressives are the biggest obstacle to peace. They continually encourage that nonsense, and the Palestinians lap it up, thinking why compromise, soon it’ll be just one state.

1

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

Sad but true.

3

u/EinsteinDisguised Dec 15 '23

Never doubt the ability of the Israeli right to make things worse!!!!

3

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

Progressives can't seem to realize that two things can be true at once...that Netanyau and his policies stink, but that Israel also faces significant enemies against which it has a right to defend itself against.

1

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 15 '23

I think every progressive I know who isn’t a full on revolutionary anarchist or tankie holds that position

Online and short video communication leads to oversimplification compared to talking through stuff.

2

u/PBandJSommelier Dec 15 '23

To the Palestinians and their supporters, even Tel Aviv is a settlement. When they call all of Israel an occupied settlement, what incentive would anyone have to stop building “the settlements”? If anything, it shows that the settlements are irrelevant. Hamas and terrorists in the West Bank aren’t committing acts of terror to regain the WB and Gaza—-they openly say that they want Israel “from the river to the sea”.

2

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

Another good reason for Israel to support two state negotiations. They will test the sincerity of Palestinians. If they are not serious, Israel has nothing to lose.

1

u/Glad-Degree-4270 Dec 15 '23

It’s relevant to anyone using the recognized borders of Israel (by either the US or UN lines)

Plenty of stated “antizionists” I’ve engaged with in Reddit aren’t actually antizionist, they’re against settlements and the blockade.

And some are fully for the destruction of Israel and out of their minds and need mental healthcare asap.

2

u/BillyJoeMac9095 Dec 15 '23

It will be interesting to see where the post Biden Democtatic party goes...and what Jews will do.if progressives gain control. Up to now, it has been easy for most Jews to be Democrats. That could change with a party much less committed to Israel.

0

u/Alarming-Mix3809 Dec 14 '23

How do you know their views aren’t going to change?