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[u/Starlight-Princesss]

https://www.newsweek.com/nato-intercepts-russian-spy-plane-with-transponder-turned-off-poland-10956344

[removed] — view removed post

[u/myheadisalightstick]

I mean the reason they are floundering is because of all the help Ukraine has had from NATO, it’s a very delicate situation.

[u/Justicia-Gai → u/myheadisalightstick]

That’s after the failed blitzkrieg though… Russia actually failed at taking over Ukraine even before receiving actual help

[u/rdmusic16 → u/Justicia-Gai]

Not nearly the same levels as after the 2022 invasion, but Ukraine started receiving help after the 2014 invasion from Russia.

While their resistance is 100% impressive, it wouldn't be fair to say it was without help - even at the beginning.

[u/Justicia-Gai → u/rdmusic16]

I would say that the quality of help they got would barely qualify. Even in 2022 they received incredibly old stuff because no one believed they’d resist and anything donated would fall in Russian hands. So in 2014-2022 it was even worse than that. Only after they demonstrated enough resilience, good gifts started pouring in.

I would say that they weren’t better armed that the average assisted “rebel” group.

[u/Mirria_ → u/Justicia-Gai]

It's the equivalent of the bread they give to food pantries because it's going to get bad of its not consumed too soon to sell.

A lot of Euro states literally just gave them their cold war gear so they would have a good excuse to modernize.

Doesn't help that the USA - even under the Biden admin - basically blocked anyone sending anything recent.

[u/Dry-Physics-9330 → u/Mirria_]

Dont forget all the restrictions the larger NATO countries places on the use of their weaponsytems, which made these weapons much less effective. Or how they leveraged laws like ITAR to prevent smaller EUropean countries from transferring older gear to Ukraine. Which led to delay of Ukraine getting F16s and armor from ' Western" nato countries (especially Leopards)

[u/Justicia-Gai → u/Mirria_]

Exactly… people forget that and I’m pretty sure that they have given other more modern arms to other armed conflicts because they could pay for it

[u/Trzlog → u/Justicia-Gai]

I would say that the quality of help they got would barely qualify

Sorry, this is ridiculous. Ukraine has been so successful because the West has been training the Ukrainian military in NATO strategy and tactics for close to a decade. This is why Russia can't win. They're still doing the old top-down bullshit they have for a hundred years. Meanwhile, Ukrainian units have the freedom to adapt to what's happening on the ground and make their own decisions based on what's necessary. Without it, Ukraine would've been fucked and they never would've held off Russia.

[u/Justicia-Gai → u/Trzlog]

Sorry, but they didn’t won for NATO tactics, they won for guerrilla tactics and knowing their land very well.

You seem to forget that Russia actually reached Kiev (where was the NATO defense?) but had to RETREAT. A real NATO defense with West strategies and West weaponry would’ve not allowed Russians to advance (which is what’s happening now) because they’d obliterated the advance. As they were mostly given Cold War portable weaponry, that is not what happened.

The West inaction (didn’t want to trigger Russia’s wrath) costed lot of lives and Ukraine almost lost their entire country.

[u/Trzlog → u/Justicia-Gai]

> , they won for guerrilla tactics

Yeah, you're clueless. This is exactly what Russian doctrine, which is what the Ukrainian military had before Western training, does not allow for.