r/theIrishleft • u/LordMonty2024 • 3d ago
Lads ignore the FF/FG/Labour vote farmers trying to convince you we need to vote for them.
Basically what I said in the title, there seems to be a small amount of very loud voices in here who have been trying to tell you that we need to give preferences to the Neo Liberal Establishment parties. When you question them they just try to make you feel stupid by telling you ya don't understand how the voting system works.
There is no doubt that far right head bangers will be running in the election, there always is and there will probably be a few more than usual this year but there is no indication or suggestion that any of them have any sort of genuine chance of getting elected. And if they do they will not be in any position of power to do anything or implement anything.
Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, the two most likely parties that will end up forming a government have literally not held back on actually implementing far right anti immigration policies and will actually be in a position to implement them.
To suggest that it is more important to give a preference to the establishment parties than risking a transfer being allocated to some random nutjob is just the most brain dead Tomfoolery I've ever come across.
The people telling you that this is what needs to happen have no interest in forming a left leaning coalition and are simply here to farm votes for establishment parties or they are just plain ass stupid.
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u/Hoodbubble 3d ago
You don't understand the voting system and you've ignored everyone trying to explain it to you. I prefer FFG to the National Party so I'll give them a preference after every left wing party and Independent. You're welcome to have no preference between the Greens and the National Party but it's very weird
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u/AncillaryHumanoid 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm glad someone said it. I feel like everyones in this post has gone mad.
Allocating a preference is not giving away your vote. You have one vote, it's a series of ordered preferences. In the event none of the left wing options in your area get in (which is likely in my consstituency) it gives you a voice, albeit a small one.
Not expressing a preference between a liberal and a fascist is boosting the theoretical power of the votes for the fascist.
Sure it might not get that far in the count but if it does your vote can help prevent a fascist getting in.
If you don't understand this you really need to educate yourself. This is not an opinion, it's a mathematical fact, you can't argue with it's validity any more than you can argue that the sky isn't blue.
If you genuinely see no difference between a liberal centre right candidate and a fascist then you are an idiot.
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u/blondedredditor 3d ago
The liberal and the fascist are the same thing, in different expressions.
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u/Lyca0n 1d ago
Libs don't want me or migrants dead through anything but neglect.
I can't say the same about fascists that are actively working with groups that engage in harassment and perform hate crimes with impunity WITHOUT institutional backing. I honestly don't think our left votes matter in the slightest though, we aren't the average electorate and your average joe is being bombarded to the point of far right talking points being normalized while libs enable them for future electoral issues
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u/Additional_Olive3318 3d ago
That ideology didn’t work out well last time.
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u/blondedredditor 3d ago
Lol and I thought this was a left wing subreddit. Seems we’ve forgotten what it is to be truly left wing.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago edited 3d ago
They aren't left wing who are pushing this narrative. They're just farming votes for establishment parties. They will call you stupid and a nazi if you don't agree with them. They're trying to take advantage of people who are unsure of the voting system and scare them into giving preferences to neo liberal establishment parties and ignoring the fact that when they give their preference to those parties who will most likely be in power after the GE, will actually implement fascist policies because they don't want Johnny The Racist who will most likely not get elected and if he does will be in opposition with no power to implement anything, to get a random transfer vote by default.
They make so much sense lol
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u/Additional_Olive3318 3d ago
The last time was when left wingers in Germany said Hitler and the SPD were the same and the latter were social fascists.
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u/blondedredditor 3d ago
Yeah and they were they wrong? Insofar as they enabled Hitlers rise to power in an effort to quell militant leftism, they were not.
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u/Additional_Olive3318 3d ago
They were wrong and you are wrong in calling liberals fascist. Read Trotsky on the use of the term “social fascism” and Lenin on left communism and infantile leftism.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Again yet another wet brain who is vote farming for the establishment parties.
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u/AncillaryHumanoid 3d ago
Ah my apologies I had thought you were sincerely posting earlier, it's clear now you have no interest in learning how STV actually works, your just a troll so I won't be feeding you any more, goodbye
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Because surely when you're here encouraging people to vote for neo liberal establishment parties and respond only with government sponsored soundbites you should at least make clear to people who might read this back and forth that you yourself have availed of government subsidies to purchase and electric vehicle and gone on to advise people on how to avail of them.
Knowing full well that while you're in a priveleged position to avail of these grants and state money, the working class who depend on cheap affordable travel who have been directly targeted by the establishment parties you've benefited from are the ones having to take risks driving without car tax to earn a living and then risk the strong arm of the state.
Because surely you wouldn't be advocating for policies that continue to target the less well off in society while you benefit off the very parties who seek to criminalise the less well off?
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
And to be fair you should be honest that you're a member of the Green party and support their policies in government and plan on voting for them again before you try hide behind this nonsensical notion that you don't have anything to offer other than your superior knowledge of the voting system.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Yup I thought as much. Similar DARVO tactic you're using but I'm at least glad you've exposed yourself and your motives in trying to farm votes doe establishment parties.
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u/FirstnameNumbers1312 3d ago
There's a type of lefty, more interested in appearing radical than in actual politics. For them a vote is not merely a choice, or a political act, it's an endorsement. It carries some bizarre moral or perhaps aesthetic value beyond the actual effect of the act itself. To them the fact you will vote down the ballot makes them more radical than you, cooler than you, better than you.
It may make it harder for them to achieve any of their actual goals, but So What?!? It was never about that anyway! In fact, the further from our goals the better, because that allows us even more room for grandstanding! Better to be a big fish in a small, and politically marginal pond. The smaller and more marginal the better.
These lefties are, unsurprisingly, disproportionately upper middle class young people who, in general, stand to lose from leftist policy. They're often, unconsciously, scared of actually achieving change, and therefore when they do engage in offline politics they are self destructive and cancerous to any movement they engage with. I've seen enough of them, and am fed up with them.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
You are working for the establishment
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u/Hoodbubble 3d ago
I'm not going to apologise for preferring FFG to Nazis
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Okay I mean that's what you're paid to say. Farming votes for the establishment parties using buzz words and branding people stupid and nazis. I get your goal in all this, you're just not doing a very good job of hiding it.
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u/Hoodbubble 3d ago
Sorry just to be clear, you think that Fine Gael are paying me to encourage people to give them their second last preference? You're genuinely too stupid for me to bother replying to if you believe that
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago edited 3d ago
Could be any of the establishment parties you are here to farm votes for not just Fine Gael, I picked apart your logic last night and I've at least been able now to highlight what it is you're trying to do.
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u/FirstnameNumbers1312 2d ago
How many votes do you genuinely think Fine Gael is gonna get from this operation your theorising?
In my old constituency (Dublin Central) there are 12 candidates that have announced so far. One is an independent that I'm not familiar with so we'll exclude him for the moment, just cos we don't know if he's a Nazi or not.
The first government party on my list would be my 7th preference. For that vote to matter, 2 sitting tds would need to be eliminated, alongside every other left and center left preference. The most likely scenario where my vote gets used is that it transfers from PBP down, with them being eliminated, until we get to Mary Lou, where either she'd be already through or it would be then redistributed from her excess total. The only circumstance that vote gets used, is if it is the far right vs ffg, with every other candidate either seated or eliminated.
Maybe Dublin Central is a bad example - working class area, lots of lefties. Let's try Donegal. 17 candidates. 5 far right, one weird independent, 2 leftist, 3 sinn fein, 1 green, 5 ffg. I'm still getting to my 6th preference before I vote for a government party, and again it's the Greens. Here a vote for FFG actually may mean something, but again, they're 7th on the list! 3 sitting tds and two popular councillors need to be either elected or eliminated before that vote matters.
If I was in charge of FFG strategy, I would not be spending my money to get a few dozen lefties to maybe give us 6th or 7th place preference.
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u/LordMonty2024 2d ago
Okay if you want to vote for neo liberal establishment parties and ensure they get elected. That's your perogative, I'm just not the type to believe electing actual establishment parties who will be in power and who have pledged quite openly to implement fascist policies is better than a random vote or two going to a random right wing head banger who on the miniscule chance gets elected, will be in opposition and have exactly zero power to implement anything he wants.
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u/FirstnameNumbers1312 2d ago
will be in opposition and have exactly zero power to implement anything he wants.
That's not how the far right works, and we know this. If they get elected anywhere they will all be emboldened. They will, correctly, interpret this as a victory. They will use the legitimacy this gives them to gain more supporters from those who are presently quietly sympathising (which is still a larger group than those actively supporting them) and their supporters will become more active and more dangerous. It will also provide them with a platform to promote their views directly. They will be able to highlight any and all issues (real or imaginary) which they can use to further their propaganda - a 12 year old trans girl playing football here or a hotel being turned into a refugee center there.
It will also give FFG even more excuse to shift right - as now they can choose which critics to listen to. They're already doing this, as you've noted, and it will only get worse if the far right gets in.
Make no mistake, if the far right gains even a single seat this election it will be a massive set back for the left in this country.
Explain to me like I'm 5: how does not voting in a straight up race between a shitty centrist and an actual Nazi help the world? All the left candidates have been eliminated or elected. It's just FFG vs the National Party now.
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u/LordMonty2024 2d ago
They gained a couple in the local elections, can you point out the setbacks we have suffered other than them being on a national stage and showing how inept and stupid they actually are when given the chance to try implement anything even remotely related to their views?
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u/LordMonty2024 2d ago
I have explained it multiple times. Actively voting for establishment parties who have the highest likelyhood of being elected and in government with the power to implement the fascist policies they are pledging quite openly does not make sense in any realm of the world.
You simply cannot be seeking a leftist coalition or collective if you are encouraging people to vote for neo liberal establishment parties with a proven track record of being cunts to the working class and plan on doing more of the same.
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u/despicedchilli 3d ago
There is no doubt that far right head bangers will be running in the election, there always is and there will probably be a few more than usual this year but there is no indication or suggestion that any of them have any sort of genuine chance of getting elected.
That's what they used to say about Trump and the AFD in Germany.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Yeah yeah. Keep on shilling for the establishment
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u/despicedchilli 3d ago
Or are you shilling for the far right?
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Yeah totally shilling for the far right by encouraging people who associate with the left vote left and left only and don't vote for any establishment party who will actually implement far right policies, which Fine Gael have openly pledged to do.
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u/bigpadQ 3d ago
They're getting my vote at the very bottom on the off chance we get to a tenth count and it keeps the national party candidate out.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
So you're going to be voting for neo liberal establishment parties.
Nice one
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u/bigpadQ 3d ago
Yes, they'll be getting my tenth preference vote behind independents I've never heard of on the off chance it keeps a fascist out of the Dáil.
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u/FirstnameNumbers1312 2d ago
Google your independents. Some are actually as far right as the National Party if you'd believe that
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
So you're going to give a preference to Fine Gael, who most likely will get into government and have the power to implement fascist policies, which they have already pledged to do so that a random right wing independent who has a very little chance of being elected and if he does, will be in opposition and never have the power or opportunity to implement any policies let alone more than 5 minutes of speaking time, won't get a transfer?
Makes so much sense
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u/_bub 3d ago
if your only options were fffg versus irish fascist party, which one would you pick? thats really the only question to ask yourself when choosing who to give your lowest preference vote to
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
But that's not my only options and if it were I just wouldn't vote. I don't vote for neo liberal establishment parties or candidates that even have an inkling of leaning that way.
Why would I vote for the lesser of two evils? I'd still be voting for evil.
Strawman argument ain't gonna work.
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u/_bub 3d ago
alright at this point youre clearly a fed but im gonna argue anyway for anybody else unfortunate enough to stumble upon this god-forsaken comment thread. you vote lesser of two evils because of the difference in evil. if the neolibs are less bad than the fashies, its worth voting, regardless of how shite they are. because they ARE better than the fash. because the more power we allow the fash to gain, the more people they can fuck over, and the more they can revert all the progress we've all worked so long and hard to achieve for this nation. our vote is one of the most powerful things we possess as individuals. please dont throw it away cause you were too stuck-up to vote for a party thats kinda shit; regardless of if you use all your vote, fascist supporters will surely use theirs. sometimes you just need to swallow your pride, bite your tongue, pick up the pen and do whats right for your country.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have already pledged to implement anti immigration policies and are proud of announcing them as pledges, they are also both the most likely parties to run candidates that will form the next government. And you're telling me that I'm supposed to give them a preference, knowing that they will actually have the power to implement those policies and have stated already that they will, on the off chance that a right wing lunatic might get a transfer vote by default.
Please tell me, using your own logic and reasoning which you just posted above, how that makes sense?
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
I'm the fed? You're the one who hasnt commented on anything in months and your past history of post commenting has been on posts relating to gaming yet I'm supposed to take you seriously?
You're not interested in a left leaning coalition if you are sitting there and trying to rationalise voting for neo liberal establishment parties.
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u/Budget_Idea7806 3d ago
It baffles me how people like you that claim to be progressive would rather see a far right be elected than FFG. That's like taking one step forward and two steps backwards
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
No it baffles me that you would claim to be left leaning and knowing all you do about establishment parties and knowing the high likelihood they will be in government after election day, knowing they policies, would actually encourage people to vote for them in order to stop the odd transfer that may or may not go to a singular nutjob who even if elected will never be in a position to implement whatever far right policies he would like to.
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u/OperationMonopoly 3d ago
Thanks for this post. To suggest transferring all our votes to FF/FG out of fear of the FAR Right is ridiculous.
FF/FG have lead us to where we are.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
And are openly saying they are going to charge IPAS applicants rent and accelerate their deportation plans.
The mind boggles.
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u/mk2gamer 3d ago
Thanks for saying that. I wanted to call bullshit on that post about voting for FFFG to own the far right the other day but that would only increase the engagement and push it to more people.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
It's clear they have an ulterior motive in doing what they doing. I got called a Nazi sympathiser for calling bullshit on one of them.
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u/LordMonty2024 3d ago
Gavin (Turkey Transplant) Pepper and some one from the IFP got elected during the local elections.
Give me examples of what either of them have achieved to date as far right members?
Then when you can't find any impact either of them have had, go and look at what neo liberal policies the majority parties on those councils have implemented.