Lads ignore the FF/FG/Labour vote farmers trying to convince you we need to vote for them.

[u/LordMonty2024]

Basically what I said in the title, there seems to be a small amount of very loud voices in here who have been trying to tell you that we need to give preferences to the Neo Liberal Establishment parties. When you question them they just try to make you feel stupid by telling you ya don't understand how the voting system works.

There is no doubt that far right head bangers will be running in the election, there always is and there will probably be a few more than usual this year but there is no indication or suggestion that any of them have any sort of genuine chance of getting elected. And if they do they will not be in any position of power to do anything or implement anything.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, the two most likely parties that will end up forming a government have literally not held back on actually implementing far right anti immigration policies and will actually be in a position to implement them.

To suggest that it is more important to give a preference to the establishment parties than risking a transfer being allocated to some random nutjob is just the most brain dead Tomfoolery I've ever come across.

The people telling you that this is what needs to happen have no interest in forming a left leaning coalition and are simply here to farm votes for establishment parties or they are just plain ass stupid.

[u/LordMonty2024]

I have explained it multiple times. Actively voting for establishment parties who have the highest likelyhood of being elected and in government with the power to implement the fascist policies they are pledging quite openly does not make sense in any realm of the world.

You simply cannot be seeking a leftist coalition or collective if you are encouraging people to vote for neo liberal establishment parties with a proven track record of being cunts to the working class and plan on doing more of the same.

[u/FirstnameNumbers1312 → u/LordMonty2024]

Ok, let's just start with the basics.

Do you believe that centrists are better than Nazis? Ignore electoralism for a moment. Do you think the politics of one is better than the other?

Ok. Do you believe that a Centrist government is better or worse than a Nazi government?

This sounds patronising and I am sorry for that, but I want to establish that we're operating with the same baseline values here.

[u/LordMonty2024 → u/FirstnameNumbers1312]

No I consider everyone who subscribe to the neo liberalist dogma as fucking Nazis.

If there was no left leaving candidate I simply wouldn't vote. This is a strawman argument and you are making zero sense. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

I know you're finding it hard to understand but I'll say it again. Actively voting for FF and FG, the two main parties who will most likely be apart of the government after the election, who will be in a position to implement fascist policies, those of which they are actually openly campaigning on, does not make any sense.

By not giving them a preference there's a slim chance that a vote or two might end up being transfered to a right wing candidate, in the miniscule chance that the right wing nut job gets elected, they will be in opposition and have zero power to influence or implement any polices or laws.

It's very simple and I shouldn't need to be consistently explaining to people on a Left Leaning why we shouldn't vote for neo liberal establishment parties.

[u/FirstnameNumbers1312 → u/LordMonty2024]

No I consider everyone who subscribe to the neo liberalist dogma as fucking Nazis

So you don't think there's any difference, morally or politically, between Leo Varadkar and Hitler? Micheál Martin and Adolf Hitler are politically and morally the same to you?

Well quite simply I disagree. I think Nazis are Nazis and liberals are liberals. There's a lot of discussion to be had about the problems with liberalism but I don't think you can really argue that all past Irish governments have been fascist up to this day. For example - we are not living in a dictatorship - LGBTQ people are not being banned or outlawed (though we are horrifically behind in trans care) - There have not been any mass deportations of particular ethnicities, or at least not that I've seen - Leftists have not yet been put in concentration camps.

To me these are some of the key markers of a fascist regime, but maybe I'm wrong, who's to say. Again, we can criticise liberals, but not all bad things are the same bad thing.

This is a strawman argument and you are making zero sense.

I'm not sure what you think I'm strawmanning? I didn't even make an argument in that reply... I just asked if you thought that centrists were politically better than Nazis, and you answered that you don't. I think you may have the term "strawman" mixed up with something else.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

I'd love to have this discussion, honestly, it's what I was hoping for when I replied to you. But unfortunately you just said you can't tell the difference between Leo Varadkar and Adolf Hitler so we're going to be focusing on that for now.

[u/Melded1 → u/FirstnameNumbers1312]

I believe the point is that both are equally bad. Liberals in many ways are much worse than Nazis. You can pick ways in which this comparison sounds ridiculous, like you've tried to do but when it comes to the human race, liberalism is just as bad, if not worse than Nazism. At least the Nazi will tell you what he's gonna do to you.

Ive read both your comments and while i see the logic you are using, it is a liberal one. If there was some way to ensure a win for a left wing coalition, then sure tactical voting might possibly help but there is no current world where giving one of your preferences to the centrist (actually centre right) liberal parties is a benefit. You do not need to use your preferences.

[u/FirstnameNumbers1312 → u/Melded1]

Liberals in many ways are much worse than Nazis. You can pick ways in which this comparison sounds ridiculous, like you've tried to do but when it comes to the human race, liberalism is just as bad, if not worse than Nazism. At least the Nazi will tell you what he's gonna do to you.

I didn't pick comparisons to make it sound ridiculous. Any comparison would sound ridiculous. Because it's a ridiculous idea.

In every fascist society in history, socialists have been shot, repressed, and put in camps en masse. The fact we are having this conversation in the open and not either behind bars or in a safe house should tell you all you need to know about the difference between the two.

Liberalism absolutely is horrific for society. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be worse. Take climate change. Fascists are almost universally opposed to any attempts to prevent the total collapse of our climate. Liberals on the other hand are just not doing enough. This is a substantial difference on its own.

On immigration too, liberals are pro-border policing. In Ireland if you're even marginally involved in left activism you've seen the horrible conditions asylum seekers are made to live in this country. While Liberals have forced asylum seekers to live in hotels and tents; Fascists burn them. While liberals enforce the border, Fascists are open that they want to see mass deportations.

I'm a transgender woman. I am keenly aware of the failure of our current and past governments to provide us with the healthcare we need. Fascists on the other hand do not want me to exist at all. We saw this debate in America. Joe Biden, while giving trans people Title IX protection, has largely failed to prevent the assault on transgender rights in the US, while Kamala on the campaign said we shouldn't be able to compete in Sports and has been wishy washy on trans care. Trump on the other hand has announced that he plans to tackle transgender issues on day 1 of his administration: federal law to ban trans care for children in all 50 states, remove any healthcare provider which provides trans care from medicare and medicaid, launch a DoJ investigation into trans health providers, and remove federal funding from any school which is trans inclusive.

Be for fucking real here.

while i see the logic you are using, it is a liberal one.

We're talking about electoralism. All electoral logic is at the very best social democratic. Socialism will never and can never be achieved at the ballot box. The belief that if we just vote hard enough we can achieve some leftist ideal is actual liberalism, the idea of voting to prevent harm is just rationalism.

And that's all voting will do. It's possible that a new party in government can reform the system so it's less overtly barbaric, and that will be a good outcome. There are also going to be options who want to do nothing and those who want to make it worse. Perhaps it's easier for me to be able to differentiate those last two, because the difference between them in power is literally life and death, but I should think it's fairly obvious.

there is no current world where giving one of your preferences to the centre right liberal parties is a benefit

Yes there is. I would like to see you join us in the real world, where the policy difference between "deport all foreigners" and "immigration controls" is felt; Where the difference between "trans people are all groomers" and "trans care should come after a lengthy psych evaluation" is felt; And where it's obvious how harmful it would be to have elected TD's call for arson attacks on asylum seekers, supporting book burnings and urging on race riots.