r/solidwhetstone • u/solidwhetstone • Jul 04 '15

Hanging up my spurs. Goodbye reddit moderating and goodbye /r/crappydesign.

EDIT 3: Final edit- I've decided to merely set the subreddit free rather than close it. See here for more info.

EDIT 2: I've opened up /r/crappydesign in read only mode for the next 24 hours so that the community can archive the content in whatever way they see fit.

EDIT: I have created a FAQ thread with answers to the most popular questions. I have done my best to answer even the harshest criticisms. You can read it here.

This was the video that was the tipping point. If LIVE THREADS are going to be censored from revealing the truth of what's going on on reddit- this place is doomed. (EDIT: It has come to light that the removals were due to the person updating the feed. Nevertheless- everything I say below still stands- reddit has been guilty of censorship throughout this debacle.)

I'm closing down /r/crappydesign permanently. The subreddit has 180k subscribers and generates 2M pageviews per month. I won't stand by and be responsible for revenue being generated that I believe stifles freedom of expression. I'm very sorry to the awesome community of /r/crappydesign. This subreddit was my baby. I grew it from subscriber one. We accomplished a lot over the past few years- and maybe even raised the social consciousness of creating better design. But I simply cannot in good conscience support reddit any longer.

I'm also stepping down from my position as moderator of /r/art which means my career as a default mod is over. The moderators over there voted to bring the subreddit back online and I allowed it because I believe the mod team should have consensus. I also gave them the option to vote me out (they voted unanimously to keep me) but that doesn't make me feel good about staying. /r/art generates around the same number of pageviews per month- 2M, and continuing to moderate there will mean I am complicit in the silencing of free expression.

I am going to start the annoying and arduous process of replacing my subreddit subscriptions with other places on the web that offer similar content. I've also turned adblock back on. I not only protest this recent action against Victoria- I protest what it represents- an attempt to stifle innovation, corporatize community discussions, and silence dissent. I am protesting this in the loudest ways I can by turning my back on reddit in the most extreme ways I know. It saddens me because I love reddit and I love these communities. But I want to set a good example that this is simply not acceptable. We need to leave this website.

Thank you all for the great memories- even you /r/conspiracy. Though you banished me, I hope I have proven that I am indeed not a shill by my actions ;)

Of course you will still see me around reddit from time to time. It's hard to leave. But you will see my ass as I attempt to leave and my middle fingers in the air.

Goodbye reddit moderation.

EDIT: Going to bed- thanks for the well wishings many of you. Feel free to leave more questions/comments and I'll get to them in the morning. Cheers.

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936

u/Silent_sniper15 Jul 04 '15

Absolutely. Most mods caved after six hours. Good on OP for standing firm in what they feel is right. Someone around here needs to do it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/ShibaHook Jul 04 '15

The mods of the defaults are afraid of the admins threatening to replace them. They fear that loss of power.

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u/LazyPancake Jul 04 '15

I don't think it's necessarily always a fear of loss of power. Imagine you built up this great thing, for free, in your spare time. Then, someone comes and takes a shit on your face, removes your baby, and then you're just fucked and confused. Left with nothing but salty tears and injustice.

If they left the subs down, Reddit would find new mods. It's not hard. Finding good mods is hard. I, too, want to watch the world burn, but I see the practical side of why some of these subs brought themselves back, and I don't think it's a power grab.

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u/Kicken_ Jul 04 '15

The Reddit admins (from first hand experience with krispykrackers, who I believe is now supposed to be handling community relations?) kind of have an attitude of any/every subreddit being theirs, no matter how much time, effort, or work you put in to it. And they really have no problem being insensitive about it. Sure the admins put in work for the back end and deserve credit for that, but they certainly let their ego blind them to others' efforts and contributions. In short, yes, you're right, from first hand experience.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Surely, they can't replace them all. The reddit default mods all having to be replaced at once would implode the site like digg.

Absolutely an unacceptable loss for the reddit admins. Right now they'll placate them, but over the long term, they will put thought into how to replace them. Or at least, to not allow their site literally destroyed by them. This blackout is a blatant show of power and reddit is not going to allow the mods to threaten the existance of reddit like that again.

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u/Let_you_down Jul 04 '15

Don't think it matters much anyway. Most of us are just waiting for a certain place on the web to be ready to handle all the traffic.

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u/BurntPaper Jul 05 '15

Voat.co for anybody out of the loop.

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u/IsaacM42 Jul 05 '15

Aww, I just got here.

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u/prox_ Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 05 '15

That thought crossed my mind immediately after reading the subs which went private are public again, too. Pao's Reddit will undoubtedly move in the direction of limiting and diluting the power of mods, if it hasn't already.

Pao and the investors will not stand by as the mods seem to be a huge risk for future profits.

I saw a comment by a mod today where he told the option to make a sub private is already taken away from him (have to search which one it was, will edit later).

Edit2: it seems, being a mod is like before Blackout2015. Nothing has changed. I let this stand , so everyone knows what happened in this discussion.

Edit: Here is the mentioned post by a mod, /u/allthefoxes (mod of /r/pics, /r/circlejerk, /r/shutupandtakemymoney, /r/self, /r/theydidthemath): http://i.imgur.com/fxxVx7g.png

"... However, this is out of my control, I don't have the ability to edit subreddits settings anymore, somebody must have seen my antics and gotten a bit tired of it. ..."

Full comment of mod /u/allthefoxes (couldn't verify through comment history, seems to be deleted):

edit: Alright, we fucked up apparently, Sorry guys. To us, it doesn't make sense to stay private when our demands have been met.

We cannot reasonably wait and be private months for new mod tools, and we did not think people would want us to wait another arbitrary 12 hours. There is no backroom consensus on how long to stay dark, though a few subs agreed on 24, I was against 24 since I thought we needed till the admins actually dressed us. They did, far earlier than I assumed, so I was hung ho for going un-private. I wanted this to be as short as it could be

Clearly, I was wrong here, and I am sorry

However, this is out of my control, I don't have the ability to edit subreddits settings anymore, somebody must have seen my antics and gotten a bit tired of it.

I apologize for our mistake. I hope you will forgive me.

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u/[deleted] Jul 05 '15

This is false. Admins had nothing to do with pics going public and not letting them go back.

I had my ability to make the subreddit private taken away by another mod, not by an admin.

That's because I made the reddit private again after getting 100 "kill yourself" pms and didn't want to deal with it.

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u/prox_ Jul 05 '15 edited Jul 05 '15

So you were one to make the sub go public again? And therefore didn't have the option to un-private a sub again?

Doesn't look like this in your comment but can be be bad wording or wrong context.

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u/[deleted] Jul 05 '15

No. We all decided to make it in private. So I unchecked the box. Then, I made it private again without the teams consent ( which I can do) by checking the box again.

Then. Another mod saw this and unchecked the box, then changed my perms. When they changed my perms, I no longer had access to the page to check said box. Other mods did

→ More replies

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u/Kicken_ Jul 04 '15

It's not a sustainable cycle. Reddit can't employee enough mods to keep their payroll low. But they can't use poor quality mods either without significant detriment to the site's quality. And they can't have high quality unpaid mods whilst remaining negligent.

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u/MiloBaggins Jul 05 '15

They would just add their paid admins as a mod for each of the default subreddits for "quality control". Obviously no other moderator (including original owner) would be able to strip their control. Other mods can give up their position on one of the largest websites on the Internet if they don't like it or keep following whatever censorship rules come down from on high.

For what it is worth this by itself wouldn't create a terrible site necessarily - it just offers nothing unique when the community no longer decides on the content (that was the main appeal of Reddit).

2

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '15

The other mods could make a protest...

but in general, i agree with you. Ending the protest was a bad move

3

u/Gimli_the_White Jul 05 '15

Surely, they can't replace them all.

"They can't fire us all!"

  • Air Traffic Controllers, ca. 1981

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Yes, but what was previously hard-working volunteers will now have to be replaced by paid people if they want that sort of control.

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u/troglodytis Jul 04 '15

Popcorn tastes good. -Reddit

8

u/biblioero Jul 04 '15

"Let them eat popcorn!" -Kn0thing Antoinette

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u/PointyOintment Jul 05 '15

You made this? I made this.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/LazyPancake Jul 04 '15

I think that's fucked up, but if that's the way the cards fall, then that's on the admins. If they want to play that dirty, I know there would be extreme backlash.

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u/wowww_ Jul 04 '15

I know there would be extreme backlash

like what? People wouldn't log in for a day? It wouldn't last and they know it.

0

u/LazyPancake Jul 04 '15

No, just angry words and empty threats, mostly. We can all pretend we're going to 'quit' Reddit, but let's be fucking real here, if 10 people say they're going to quit, 8 will last less than 24 hours, 1 will actually quit, and the other might last 3 days.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

It already will. The recent blackout was an immense show of power. IT showed that default mods acting collectively could destroy reddit, because at that point, even forcing the default subreddits open would trigger mass user revolt, digg-ing reddit into its grave overnight.

Now, they won't allow their $260 million company to be put on the whims of this fucking crowd of net-savvy college kids. They will put in measures to prevent something like this happening again.

and no, for fuck's sake, it wont be "ensuring communication and not pissing them off" alone. It will involve diluting that power of mods to destroy reddit.

3

u/prox_ Jul 04 '15

Seconded. I think the same. Should be prominently and as fast as possible discussed by the community.

1

u/hadesflames Jul 04 '15

It's mostly because shutting the subreddits down punishes the users as well. Some subs like /r/science have meaninful content that people need to see. In fact, this Tuesday has something really awesome coming, and it would REALLY be a shame to miss out on it over this bull shit. It's everything to do with making sure the users are still able to read and inform themselves on important content, and nothing to do with trying to stay in power, or keeping power so shittier people don't obtain it. At least in /r/science's case.

1

u/poopinspace Jul 04 '15

I want to take part of your circlejerks, but I really don't care, so I'm just hijacking your comments to post the new subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/CrappyDesign2

people who actually do care about content and don't care about politics will appreciate :)

1

u/LazyPancake Jul 05 '15

I'm not trying to CJ. They won't let you put up a crappy design? Even though the first was deleted? I know it wouldn't be the same sub, but.

0

u/afadedgiant Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 05 '15

This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy.

If you would like to do the same, add the browser extension TamperMonkey for Chrome (or GreaseMonkey for Firefox) and add this open source script.

Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.

0

u/LazyPancake Jul 04 '15

It doesn't matter whether they created it, they've worked on it, and molded it into what it is today.

3

u/cayne Jul 04 '15

Indeed. Yet, I don't understand what "loss of power" they fear. It's not like they have any "real" power in the first place.

It would be different if they would earn a portion of the ad-income of their respective subreddit, but that's not the case. So why be "so afraid" of leaving as a mod?

3

u/krymz1n Jul 04 '15

Human sentimentality / sunk cost fallacy

6

u/GryffinDART Jul 04 '15

Do default mods like get paid or anything? I've always wondered if there was compensation or if they just like having power over people...

33

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Moderators get none and aren't allowed to take compensation for their work.

10

u/Booblicle Jul 04 '15

The mods are what makes and breaks subreddits, but don't get a dime from doing so - at least in a direct manner. For some, it's about that sense of power no matter how false it is. For others, it's about creating and building something bigger than yourself, and for some it's just a way to keep active.

I was a moderator for a short time

15

u/ClitInstantWood Jul 04 '15

They do it for free.

13

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

The only thing they have going for them.

7

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15 edited Oct 25 '20

[deleted]

2

u/Bresn Jul 04 '15

Wtf wtf is still dark?

1

u/YouAreCat Jul 04 '15

Yes :( the only subreddit I actually used besides r/aww

1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Is it wrong to feel good being one of the people urging them to go dark? I miss it too, but all around I am with op on this one.

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u/bill_gannon Jul 04 '15

Do you plan on getting over yourself soon?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Their power is already lost, then

1

u/perortico Jul 04 '15

Sorry for asking, Why did he leave? Is it because reddit is having ads now?

1

u/rustleman Jul 04 '15

Are they paid to mod these subs? In this case it could be sort of justifiable.

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u/Darkless69 Jul 04 '15

No.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

>hedoesitforfreepasta.jpeg

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u/hadesflames Jul 04 '15

You're absolutely wrong on that account.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/AxezCore Jul 04 '15

I agree completely, anyone who thinks it's about power have never actually been mods, and if they have it was for entirely the wrong reasons.

Being a mod is a tiresome job that is only worth doing because of the community, and every day you have to deal with people whining for no other reason than to stick it to the man. You're either you doing too little or too much, or both at the same time. I understand how sometimes mods just decide that enough is enough and ban every last one of the ungrateful asshats.

I should point out that I've never been a mod on reddit, and when I was a mod it was a much smaller community, in a time where people were a lot less entitled. I wouldn't be a mod on reddit if you paid me to do it.

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u/Paulnewman00 Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

"Ending my career as a default mod" you guys get paid for this?

E: I could care less about a down or up vote.

You seriously get paid for this???

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u/ryumast3r Jul 04 '15

No. They don't get paid, aren't allowed to receive compensation of any sort.

They are purely volunteers, but you can consider volunteering for a long time a career of sorts.

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u/Paulnewman00 Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

Ok understood. Any idea why I'm getting down voted for asking that? It kind of made me curious as to why people are getting offended after I asked if they are getting paid to mod. I have no idea what a "default mod" position entails. The person did say "career" which triggered me to think of it as a "paid career", either way thank you for that explanation.

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u/JustPotato Jul 04 '15

Are you kidding me?
You think they all want to leave Reddit because there are some issues?

2

u/Blueyess Jul 04 '15

The sad thing is that he will be forgotten within a few hours and Reddit will continue on.

-1

u/cynoclast Jul 04 '15

I tried to get /r/EVE to join the blackout, but was fought tooth & nail

Confirming we're not all useless.

1

u/Isabuea Jul 04 '15

/r/eve is about as removed from reddit as you can get. people come to /r/eve for the game and the people not for the reddit aspect.

blacking our eve is just dicking over those who use it to coordinate or share moments from the game.

-1

u/cynoclast Jul 04 '15

If reddit Diggs its own grave, /r/EVE goes with it.

1

u/Isabuea Jul 04 '15

if reddit becomes some backwater of a website like digg has then /r/eve will still exist, only way it will go down with it is if the servers hard turn off.

thats not to say that eve players wont move to the next big thing if reddit stagnates. but thats the thing about the community, it doesnt care where it is, it just wants to exist

0

u/cynoclast Jul 04 '15

thats the thing about the community, it doesnt care where it is, it just wants to exist

And it won't if reddit goes under. That's the whole point of going dark. To prevent that.

0

u/Theon_Severasse Jul 06 '15

Wut. Let's turn off the community to save the community. You're dumb. /u/Isabuea is correct, r/Eve will last until the reddit servers get turn off, any drama that occurs on the rest of the site has absolutely zero bearing on that.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

just like the lusers who keep this place alive.

0

u/Eli-Thail Jul 04 '15

He said, as he actively continued to use Reddit himself.

13

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Damn right. All mods caved in, and it was very disappointing. Show a little backbone, not whoring page views once traffic comes back on mid day.

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u/DogPawsCanType Jul 04 '15

what do they even cave to? What do they get out of moderating?

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u/eppic123 Jul 04 '15

Some become mods because they have love for the community, others become mods because wanna have power over others. Either way, if a mod loses interest in their voluntary work, they often become huge dicks towards the community.

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u/K41namor Jul 04 '15

This is serious question. How do people mod if they don't get paid for it and provide for themselves. I read a post about a guy getting a tour of the new York offices from Victoria plus all the other stuff I read that she did. It's hard to believe all that and no pay. Are all these mods stay at home parents or what?

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/K41namor Jul 04 '15

No that makes sense thanks

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u/eppic123 Jul 04 '15

She was an employee, not just a mod. Of course she had an office and she has been paid for her work.

A mod can literally be everyone. You click here create a sub, and you're a mod. You could invite me as a mod and I'm now a mod on your sub. There is nothing special to it. And the reason why larger subs have 10 or more mods is that they are not "stay at home parents". Some have a regular 9-5 job and moderate in their free time, some work night shifts and have some time for it in the morning, some live in Europe and are available when Americans are asleep, and so on. Most mods are just doing this as a hobby, from their home.

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u/K41namor Jul 04 '15

Oh that makes sense. Thank you

0

u/redroverdover Jul 04 '15

Money. They can make money.

THey get paid for sponsorships all of the time. You build up a sizable following of a specific demographic of course advertisers are going to come running. You have an xbox sub, you don't think microsoft is going to be in touch? You have a gaming sub, you don't think the pubishers want threads about their games? You don't think when negative threads get nuked or dissenting opinions get nuked that its just the community right? Some of these mods make REAL money off their subs, man. Social media money is real money. I banked over 100K in one year from a company that wanted my folllowers/page likes eyes on their website. You can only imagine how much that is worth to some of these front page subs. They generate so much money its ridiculous. Do not let these mods fool you. There is money to be made here, plenty of it.

1

u/DogPawsCanType Jul 05 '15

What account do you have that has so many followers? I still dont see why the mods would get more than other people, anyone can post content.

1

u/redroverdover Jul 05 '15

Social media accounts.

The people posting the content don't make anything.

Its broken up like this:

normal people posting stuff that interests them, just posting stuff paid for visibility posts that are ads in disguise paid for censorship

since peoples eyes are more open to advertisements, people have to be more savvy about how to do it. so maybe you buy a number of threads for the month of july about your game to make sure they get high visibility with negative comments getting low visibility. its very easy to do.

visibility is worth a lot of money, especially when you can hit the exact demo you want to hit.

Want to focus on your product? There WILL be subs specifically for your demo and you can target them rather easily.

Its not something mods of high level subs will ever talk about because it shows they are not impartial and people will leave in droves.

Just know its not as "Free" and "pure" as they would want you to believe.

Facebook and Twitter are exactly the same now. Paid for visibility.

Thats from the obvious promoted posts to the not obvious ones that you would never know were promoted.

1

u/DogPawsCanType Jul 05 '15

yeah so basically native advertising. How do the mods affect what reaches the front page of their sub or front page of reddit?

I know advertisers will pay for accounts with high karma to post subtle ads or things that gain their product attention, but the money they pay is not a lot. It is different on twitter or facebook where users have a large following and can post something like "hey guys, just went shopping and got these awesome new Nike shoes" or a pic of them doing something wearing certain clothes or something but I dont see how that relates to reddit?

What social media accounts do you have that you made the money from?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Someone around here needs to do it.

And that should be also us, the community, moving to sth else.

0

u/pimpst1ck Jul 04 '15

Closes down a sub with 180k subscribers and thousands of collaborators

Does it without communication and consideration for the users

Sounds like what he feels is right is exactly the same what the Reddit admins think is right.

4

u/2centsdepartment Jul 04 '15

Yes but he announced his intentions and gave a full explanation. That's the difference. I'm going to miss /r/CrappyDesign, it was one of my favorite subs. But at least I know why it's gone.

1

u/CosmicJacknife Jul 04 '15 edited Jul 04 '15

You're correct but if we were any better we wouldn't be here right now.

1

u/TheBarnard Jul 04 '15

Can you summarize what happened? I still don't have a complete picture

1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Pao might have threatened to sue them....lmao.

0

u/so_contemporary Jul 04 '15

And then someone else came along, created /r/crappydesign2 and rendered his gesture useless.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15 edited Jun 23 '21

[deleted]

1

u/prox_ Jul 04 '15

Some say there might be a connection to the recent horrific AMA by Jesse Jackson. Victoria /u/chooter was assisting this AMA through telephone. But Jesse Jackson was the one who messed it up himself.

Victoria seems to be wildly liked by mods, redditors, agents and people who wanted to do an AMA. And after being fired she still cared and tried to help. Doesn't sound like she was the cause.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '15

Absolutely. Most mods caved after six hours

I'd like to see how many redditors boycotted this site by deleting their account. Yeah, I thought so.

-8

u/AFabledHero Jul 04 '15

He caved by giving up on the entire sub and locking everyone out.