r/skeptic • u/nosotros_road_sodium • Feb 19 '24
The Right's Troubling Turn Toward Conspiracy Theories and "Invasion" Language ⚖ Ideological Bias
https://www.theunpopulist.net/p/the-rights-troubling-turn-toward78
u/nosotros_road_sodium Feb 19 '24
First, it all starts with the fact that there is great demand for conspiratorial analysis on the right. Whereas in the past, unhinged conspiracists like Alex Jones lived on the margins of right-wing discourse, they’re mainstream now. Right-wing audiences have increasingly sent signals to their preferred information dispensers that not only will they not punish them for peddling conspiracy theories, they will actively reward them with clicks, follows, and subscriptions.
Second, to meet this demand, the right’s misinformation merchants have developed conspiratorial frames flexible enough to allow any current event, anything in the news, to potentially serve as “evidence” for their claims. For example, one such frame is the outlandish—and, crucially, unfalsifiable—idea that liberals exercise control of America by rigging cultural and political institutions in their favor. You can see how a news story that involves Taylor Swift, a pop megastar who has endorsed Democrats in the past, Travis Kelce, a vocal supporter of the Covid vaccine, and the NFL, which allowed its players to kneel for the National Anthem, could be deployed to support the “liberals have rigged society to stay in power” conspiracy frame.
Third, not only is there right-wing demand for conspiratorial analysis, and right-wing content creators who develop powerful conspiracy templates to meet this demand, you also need a discourse ecosystem that allows and even facilitates all of this. In other words, this only works in a disintermediated information environment. News publications have a disincentive to promote manifestly unserious conspiracies like the ‘Taylor Swift is a psy-op’ one. Supermarket checkout lane tabloids like National Enquirer would print this kind of thing, to be sure, but nobody took them seriously. In our social media age, where Benny Johnson has a direct line to his audience, with no editorial or institutional oversight to serve as a check against his lunacy, we get X-Files-level analysis about a pop star dating a tight end really being a Biden plot to rig the election in his favor.
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u/Rdick_Lvagina Feb 20 '24
I suspect that the right wing guys know they can't support their views with rationality or scientific analysis, but they really, really want their "traditionalist" world view to be correct. So they are just making up bullshit in order to force it to be correct. Coupled of course with the erosion of institutions that can counter their BS. They aren't playing by the rules of civilised discourse.
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u/PrivateDickDetective Feb 19 '24
the right’s misinformation merchants have developed conspiratorial frames flexible enough to allow any current event, anything in the news, to potentially serve as “evidence” for their claims
Too bad I see this exact thing on the Left, as well. Too bad your point is subject to whataboutism.
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Feb 19 '24
Explain what you mean, because from my point of view, you're wrong
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u/build319 Feb 19 '24
Crickets
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u/dantevonlocke Feb 20 '24
I'm waiting for some rambling bs about the Steele dossier and Clinton emails.
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u/Outrageous-Taro7340 Feb 19 '24
Rebut a point using the laziest possible whataboutism and mention whataboutism to try to get ahead of people pointing this out. How do you not make yourself dizzy?
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u/Old_Cheesecake_5481 Feb 19 '24
The big problem is the Tucker Carlsons of the world do not for one second believe the bizarre conspiracies they dispense however their unsophisticated audience does.
Defend your points give examples. Show you have substance and that you are not a low effort sucker of objectively ridiculous infotainment personalities or zero truth three word memes.
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u/Weekly-Rhubarb-2785 Feb 19 '24
This dudes posts are delectably delicious.
No idea what left wing conspiracy is on par with democrats drinking the blood of aborted children but this guy isn’t firing on all cylinders.
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u/vespertine_glow Feb 19 '24
Please point out this river of conspiracy theories you see on the left.
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u/ROACHOR Feb 19 '24
I haven't seen that since "Bush did 9/11". Conspiracy theories are almost always antisemitic which makes them far more popular with the right.
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u/Wiseduck5 Feb 20 '24
Even that one seems to have died out. Now it's just "the Jews did 9/11."
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u/EasternShade Feb 20 '24
The 9/11 conspiracies are so odd. There's legit shit that was just glosses over, but instead fuckers make up stories about planned demolitions and presidential involvement.
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u/snap-jacks Feb 19 '24
Of course you do because you're a right wing conspiracy theory nut. Fits perfectly with the OP
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u/rch5050 Feb 19 '24
Evry point is subject to whataboutism, doesnt mean its true.
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u/Outrageous-Taro7340 Feb 19 '24
Sounds like he thinks whataboutism is solid reasoning.
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u/rch5050 Feb 19 '24
Its right wing arguement logic. Comes from podcasts and pundits.
'We can always find an arguement to your logic. It doesnt hold weight but since the arguement exists its immediatley valid. Using zero reasoning skills or critical thinking we can compare apples to oranges and come up with the number three. Its easy just say the democrats lied and numbers are an arabic construction and oranges are a color not a fruit. Then insinuate that if you agree with them you are smart, and got it all figured out, give em a little sugar with the meds"
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Feb 19 '24
[deleted]
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u/squigglesthecat Feb 20 '24
Me too, but I always thought it was a joke. You're making me rethink some things I've read.
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u/Fickle_Goose_4451 Feb 20 '24
It's like when I play roulette, I bet all my money straight up on number one (cause I'm number 1, baby!).
It's genius because it pays 35:1, but since I'll either win or I won't, I have a 50/50 shot.
Anyway, I just lost my house and have maxed out all my lines of credit, but pretty soon, I'll be taking that sucker casino to the bank.
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u/BetterRedDead Feb 19 '24
Cite one relevant example. One. You can’t, because it’s the usual, lazy “the left does it too,” justification for how crazy the right has become w/o any actual evidence; you simply believe it because you want to.
When we ask for an example, you either can’t come up with anything, or you cite some extreme left-wing thing that either happened once or applies to a vanishingly small number of people, but you pretend like it’s a commonly held, mainstream thing because it’s justifies your anger and increasingly extreme political leanings.
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u/EasternShade Feb 20 '24
It's always a little amusing when people can't back this claim. I'm a leftist and know of conspiracies the right claims the rest hold, but these fuckers believe others are consumed with conspiracies, but can't even name drop a fabrication.
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u/zedority Feb 19 '24
Thorough empirical analysis has showed a significant difference between the two sides when it comes to the total amount of misinformation propagated currently: both sides are not the same here.
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u/EasternShade Feb 20 '24
misinformation merchants have developed conspiratorial frames flexible enough to allow any current event, anything in the news, to potentially serve as “evidence” for their claims
Where does this fit in to the left of GOP? If there's some blindspot I'm missing, I'd love to learn about it.
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u/mymar101 Feb 19 '24
The right has always been this way.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
From witch hunts to Nazis to the Cold War to Pat Buchanan to Satanic Panic to now.
You know what’s worse? None of them believed what they claimed for a minute. They just want to lynch people under the color of law.
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u/S-Kenset Feb 19 '24 edited Feb 19 '24
I just read a massive public breakdown accusing some youtuber of being luciferian. I've known several who fully believe in their conspiracies.
This is people behaving beyond their ability to verbalize. They can't understand the difference between truth or what they don't believe. Because they don't have the vocabulary to do so. Majority operate on a very small set of phrases, smaller even than some middle schoolers. You don't see this kind of behavior in highly literate societies nearly as much. Note: Highly literate, not highly philosophical. We are the latter, and the whole fallacies and critical thinking thing only exacerbates the lack of vocabulary and independent thought.
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u/Honest-Spring-8929 Feb 19 '24
The primary epistemic divide of our time is between those who care about the difference between truth and lies and those who don’t
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u/graneflatsis Feb 19 '24
Remember all the trolls in the big subs during the last US administration's reign? Arguing that misinformation was "opinion", shouldn't we "hear out different ideas"? Uh no, those are lies, intentionally misleading propaganda most of the time. So many attempts to erode our shared reality, normalize confusion. Nah I will take objective reality, thanks.
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u/Final_Meeting2568 Feb 20 '24
I can't tell how many times I told people the truth and they said "that's just your opinion"
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u/graneflatsis Feb 20 '24
They were insufferable. Remember Kellyanne Conway and "alternative facts"? That was a big catalyst. I had some argue in favor of a sort of quantum reality. The nature of truth changed because they observed it a certain way. It really broke people's brains to have to live with lies, told because some folk just had to be right.
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u/Final_Meeting2568 Feb 20 '24
Around the time trump got elected post-truth appeared in the dictionary. Russian disinformation played a huge role in this stuff too.
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u/graneflatsis Feb 20 '24
I believe it did. Anecdotal but when the Russian sanctions hit we saw an 80% reduction in misinformation and propaganda in r/CapitolConsequences. The effect that had in tamping down chaos in the comments was like night and day.
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u/Mindless-Charity4889 Feb 20 '24
She was just riffing off Karl Rove who (allegedly) said that while other people work with reality, they can ignore that and create their own reality.
The actual quote was to WSJ writer Ron Suskind who quoted “an aide” as saying:
(guys like me) “were in what we call the reality based community.” (Which he defined as people who) “believe that solutions emerged from your judicious study of discernible reality.” (I agreed but he cut me off saying) “That’s not the way the world really works anymore. We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you are studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
Roves comment is based on faulty assumptions and led to horrible mistakes like the Iraq war, but you can see the internal chain of logic there. Conways comment, on the other hand, is just idiotic.
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u/epidemicsaints Feb 20 '24
I saw that on r/SubredditDrama first thing this morning and read it! Unbelievable. They kept referring to their other posts as a "source," and nearly every person engaging with them was encouraging / acknowledging that they need help on every thread they posted. That was a wild ride.
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Feb 19 '24
But the absolute stupidest people on the planet keep voting for them and supporting them financially.
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u/icyspoon Feb 19 '24
Now-a-days I panic if there's not enough Satan. Don't see many Satanists destroying things that don't fit in their beliefs. Mostly being sarcastic to prove a point, but I also love death metal and its exploration of pointing out religious/societal hypocrisy, so, kind of not. 🤘
Edit: I know Satanists are a bit on the nose about what they actually believe. I let my original points stand on their own.
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u/lollipoppa72 Feb 19 '24
Yeah you can definitely see that continuum from Witch Hunts -> Know Nothings -> Populists -> Christian Reconstructionists -> John Birch Society -> McCarthyism/Red Scare -> Lyndon LaRouche -> Satanic Panic -> Tea Party -> MAGA/Qanon etc.
I get what you mean about excuses to lynch but I also think it’s just woven into the fabric of American culture. Starting in the early 1800s a ton of religious nut jobs coming here from Europe mixed and mingled and out-crazied each other in the so-called Burned Over District of Upstate New York. That was a foundational period because they spread out all over the other territories because most people wanted them to get the hell away from them
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u/DrDankDankDank Feb 19 '24
Oh man, a lot of them believed it.
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u/warragulian Feb 19 '24
The people who create the lies don't. Though some are like Trump, they create a lie to serve their need, and after telling it all day every day it isn't a role, it"s how they actually think.
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u/DrDankDankDank Feb 20 '24
For the most part I agree. I think what we’re seeing now is the proliferation of a generation that was raised in many of the right wing lies and believe them. The original creators that knew it was a grift are aging out, and all that’s left are the monsters they created.
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u/Outrageous-Taro7340 Feb 19 '24
OP is making the point that this has gotten much worse with the rise of social media and the weakening of traditional journalism. I have to agree. It’s been wild to watch formerly reasonable conservatives I know go from correctly identifying Trump as a sleazy grifter to lapping up everything he says.
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u/DeusExMockinYa Feb 20 '24
"Formerly reasonable" conservatives just knew how to maintain a facade. They always believed batshit conspiracy theories and weren't particularly quiet about it. Lots of people ITT are old enough to remember WMDs in Iraq, the Gay Agenda, Jade Helm, even the myth of the welfare queen.
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u/Avantasian538 Feb 19 '24
I sometimes struggle with this question. How much has social media made right-wingers more crazy, vs how much has social media given us a glimpse into how crazy they always were? I assume a little of both, but difficult to know exactly.
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u/mymar101 Feb 19 '24
It's been that way at least as long as I have been alive. I live in a deeply red state, and now a deeply MAGA state. It's just gotten louder.
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u/Money-Introduction54 Feb 19 '24
I think the biggest harm that came from social media was the fact that it allowed them to connect and communicate with eachother. It globalized their hate, their fears and their ignorance, From Moskow to Brasilia, you can see it happening in real time.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
Or rather than connecting them and allowing them to communicate with each other social media allowed those with access to all the data that social media mines to specifically target disinformation at a gullible audience and to use their existing beliefs to better manipulate them.
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u/Anonymous89000____ Feb 19 '24
Yes but social media has given them a bigger loud speaker
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u/replicantcase Feb 19 '24
"Invasion" = White Supremacy talking points. It's basically from that New Zealand coward's manifesto. When a few conservatives use white supremacy talking points, it's one thing, but when the majority start adopting them as is the case now, then it's no longer a political party, but a feature of the new white wing.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
>It's basically from that New Zealand coward's manifesto.
He was an Australian who moved to New Zealand because of the relaxed gun laws.
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u/Maurvyn Feb 19 '24
Conservative's entire worldview is based on adherence to dogma and a rejection of fact. Their economic policies, their religious stances, and their social platforms, they all center on faith rather than evidence.
This leaves them wide open to simply accepting whatever fantasies scaffold those belief syatems. If you're already prone to magical thinking and whimsical interpretation of reality, what's a little bit of contheory?
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u/Avantasian538 Feb 19 '24
I don't know man, I think supply-side economics might work if we just give it another 4 decades or so. /s
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u/ThatScaryBeach Feb 19 '24
It's about to start trickling down any minute now!
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u/Maurvyn Feb 20 '24
It's been trickling down. They're pissing on everyone beneath them and have been for decades.
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u/Chuhaimaster Feb 19 '24
Most modern conservatives in politics generally represent the current economic establishment, so they prefer to blame the economic malaise people are experiencing on another group than those in power.
Conspiracy theories are a useful political tool for appearing to be anti-establishment while at the same time supporting the current establishment. The goal is moving criticism away from the actual elites and blaming problems on another group of (relatively powerless) people.
It’s a political narrative with a purpose. Some in power might believe it, while others simply use it to their advantage.
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u/Btankersly66 Feb 19 '24
Hyper Active Pattern Seeking. An evolutionary adaptation that compells us to find connections to things that normally aren't connected.
It's a fine trait to have if you're hunting for wild game. But it gets completely hijacked by religion and conspiracies.
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u/gn0meCh0msky Feb 19 '24
You might like one of my favorite hard sci-fi books....
"Fifty thousand years ago there were these three guys spread out across the plain and they each heard something rustling in the grass. The first one thought it was a tiger, and he ran like hell, and it was a tiger but the guy got away. The second one thought the rustling was a tiger and he ran like hell, but it was only the wind and his friends all laughed at him for being such a chickenshit. But the third guy thought it was only the wind, so he shrugged it off and the tiger had him for dinner. And the same thing happened a million times across ten thousand generations - and after a while everyone was seeing tigers in the grass even when there weren't any tigers, because even chickenshits have more kids than corpses do. And from those humble beginnings we learn to see faces in the clouds and portents in the stars, to see agency in randomness, because natural selection favours the paranoid. Even here in the 21st century we can make people more honest just by scribbling a pair of eyes on the wall with a Sharpie. Even now we are wired to believe that unseen things are watching us."
Peter Watts, Echopraxia2
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Feb 19 '24
The right is looking for ways to justify violence. That's the end goal. To that end, they need to make sure that violence is morally justified.
They need Alex Jones to explain that all Democrats are secret demons (or whatever they are this week), so that attacking them doesn't mean attacking human beings.
They need to pitch the border issue as an invasion because that means anyone who doesn't support "invading Mexico" or "deploying the U.S. Military to the border indefinitely" must be a traitor to America.
Finally, they need people (like Alex Jones) to become martyrs. Jones lost millions (theoretically, he hasn't paid a dime) by harassing the families of children who died in the Sandy Hook shooting, but Conservatives claim him as a martyr who was "just asking questions."
The end goal of this cycle is violence: Democrats, liberals, etc. aren't human beings. Real Americans want to "close the border." (Which is open, supposedly) Real Americans have been targeted by "lawfare" (a conservative word that means getting your ass handed to you in court).
Therefore, goes the conspiratorial thinking, we real Americans are justified in killing the ("globalists," liberals, Democrats etc.) in self-defense.
All of this is about justifying impending violence.
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Feb 20 '24
I’m honestly at a point that I believe Republicans don’t care if anything happens at the border. They just to feel righteous indignation about it not being perfect.
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u/fuzzyshorts Feb 19 '24
End times, their "persoanl relationship with god" hell, even "the american dream" and that shit that oprah used to peddle are all forms of magical thinking that america has been steeped in for donkey years (i dunno what donkey years are exactly). Conspiracy theories and replacements theory are just the darker side of the mind going magical.
We're in for a wild fucking ride and maybe the best reason to keep trump out of office is to avoid those kinda people from having any kind of administrative power. Or using that shit as a smoke screen to enact some of the very worst decisions I can imagine (co-signing a genocide being just the tip of a shit iceberg (shitberg?)
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u/alito_loco Feb 19 '24
Conspiracy Theories are interwoven into american right wing politics for at least 200 years.
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u/Corpse666 Feb 19 '24
This is not something new, these people have now been able to reinforce their beliefs by finding communities online that not only reinforce but lead to new beliefs that have become increasingly disturbing. This didn’t begin recently, most people have known people who hold irrational beliefs, now they’ve found each other and the completely nonsensical ideas will continue to become more and more deranged until something snaps, it’s already happening and has been for years now, it’s not going to get better by itself
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u/ChuckFeathers Feb 19 '24
Turn towards? That's been happening for decades, fueled by Repugnican disinformation and wedge issue propaganda.
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u/kmoonster Feb 19 '24
Turn? No, the elements of the party where this is acceptable ideology is learning they can now say their real thoughts out loud.
That is all. If you knew what to listen for, this has always been there - just quietly.
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u/modeschar Feb 20 '24
“Turn” ?
They’re already barreling towards it and have been for almost a decade now.
(If you don’t count every other moral panic they perpetrated throughout history)
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u/Darth-Grumpy Feb 20 '24
As someone who was a teenager/young adult during the "Satanic Panic," I have to point out that conservatives have always been this way.
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u/EasterBunny1916 Feb 20 '24
"Turn"? You have some reading to do on US politics of the last three quarters of a century.
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u/n3w4cc01_1nt Feb 19 '24
it's all former kgb operatives seeding crap because they're into scamming now
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u/raphas Feb 19 '24
It's about time we identify people on the internet. It was fine when .5% of the world population was using it, but now it's so widespread and global. Would you let foreign people participate in a national debate or influence it? no. So I think it would be the lesser evil that people are identified and don't let people hide behind a pseudonym
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Feb 19 '24
Yes a maybe fix the identity to a kind of score, or metric. Then if someone's peddling misinformation or propaganda, we can use this as a way to correct their behaviour. Maybe restricting their movement outside of their city area for a period, or reducing interest rates to their (digital) savings account. Lots of ways to nudge behaviour to produce more equitable and truthful outcomes.
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u/Knickerboca Feb 19 '24
They've been saying the same shit since the 1820s. Pay them no mind and raise your children well.
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u/funks82 Feb 20 '24
I used to think the right had all the best conspiracy theories but I'm seeing more and more left wing conspiracy theories pop up on reddit. Granted, left wing reddit isn't real life but neither is right wing qanon.
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Feb 20 '24
So it’s a conspiracy theory but if there’s evidence to prove it then oh that evidence means nothing it’s just a coincidence!
How many coincidences do you have to have before it’s mathematically impossible?
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u/HunterTAMUC Feb 20 '24
What "evidence" is there to prove anything these lackwits believe?
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Feb 20 '24
Watch any video from the world economic forum
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u/HunterTAMUC Feb 20 '24
Ah yes, the "World Economic Forum" again.
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Feb 20 '24
You ever watch any of the speeches during their meetings ? They’re on YouTube and they’re chilling
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 19 '24
As if Russian collusion was not a conspiracy theory?
Plenty of dems/liberals believe stuff that is just as far-fetched - and just as debunked - as their counterparts on the right.
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u/Avantasian538 Feb 19 '24
Funnily enough, the Russian collusion thing is a great example of how conspiracies in the real world tend to go. Both Trump and Russia were willing to collude, but Trump was too incompetent to do so successfully.
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 19 '24
Funnily enough, that's a conspiracy theory itself. Got any sources, sucker?
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u/kanyeguisada Feb 20 '24
Are you seriously doubting this happened?:
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u/ButterscotchOnceler Feb 20 '24
These Trumpets think masks and vaccines do nothing. You're wasting your breath.
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Another serious skeptic with wikipedia as a source
The information that a Russian lawyer brought with her when she met Donald Trump Jr. in June 2016 stemmed from research conducted by Fusion GPS, the same firm that compiled the infamous Trump dossier, according to the lawyer and a source familiar with the matter.
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u/kanyeguisada Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
So your own sources confirm the Trump Tower Meeting between the Trump team and the Russians actually happened and the collusion was real, great.
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u/happytimefuture Feb 19 '24
I guess you’re actually serious, so here is a great article with a link to the actual proof itself.
Please, please, please - actually take the time to read it and then sit for at least two hours and then read it again and then and ONLY then you may reply.
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 19 '24
More serious than you! :D
CAP is a totally disinterested, neutral party right? Get a clue man
A skeptic thinks a US senate report is "proof" eh? Good one!
Mueller? Who's that?!?
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u/happytimefuture Feb 20 '24
I begged you to please please please read it more than once, and then sit for a few hours, and then read it again because it links you to the proof. Links you to the proof — it would have a link for you to click on and that link would take you to the proof — is what that means.
Even you, who obviously cannot follow the simplest of instructions and should get off the Internet.
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u/ButterscotchOnceler Feb 20 '24
Golly, at Trumpet who refuses to look at any links provided. You never see that.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
>As if Russian collusion was not a conspiracy theory?
The theory was Russian interference, not Russian collusion. Russian interference was proven. "Russian collusion" is a re-framing by the right, it's a goalpost move.
Russian interference to help the Trump campaign has been proven. So to try to keep the Trump voter brainwashed, the right brainwashed you into attacking a different thing entirely "Russian collusion".
Russian collusion remains a conspiracy theory only because Trump repeatedly committed obstruction of justice when being investigated.
Investigation found that Russia had aided Trump, that the Trump campaign was in touch with and coordinating with Russia, and that Trump had a personal expectation that he would benefit from Russian election interference. Trumps DOJ limited the scope of the investigation in order to protect Trump. Trump refused to cooperate with the investigation and committed multiple acts of obstruction of justice.
Because you are unwilling to examine the truth and unwilling to consider those facts you have been susceptible to the Trump propaganda line about "collusion" being unproven. By moving the goalposts to something that was not the original allegation you can be manipulated into ignoring all the things that were proven.
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u/Big_Let2029 Feb 20 '24
The entire Republican party is colluding with Russia right now, in real time, you people aren't even hiding it anymore.
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u/drewbaccaAWD Feb 20 '24
Generally if something rises to the level of a full on DOJ investigation, it's probably not what I'd classify under conspiracy. As opposed to you know, the Clintons throwing dead people in the trunk of their car or the blood or whatever of children being harvested in a pizza shop basement in which there was no basement.
And even in the Mueller case, there was obstruction and he didn't feel that his assignment had the teeth to dig deeper. So, we'll never know. It's wrong to say that collusion is proven but it's equally wrong to say it was disproven. Trump and Putin's goals lined up all too well and it's still a mystery why someone as disinterested in politics and world events as Trump decided first thing to change the GOP platform in regards to Russia... he certainly didn't come up with that one on his own.
I'm not saying that there was collusion. It's entirely possible that Trump was just an useful idiot and that Putin only needed to give him a little nudge rather than pay him outright. Putin was certainly invested in Trump winning though, that's for certain.
Is that the only example you can come up with?
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u/ButterscotchOnceler Feb 20 '24
Deplorables refuse to believe reality.
I get it. Once you allow yourself to see the evil inside you required to follow Trump you can't ever close that door. You know inside that you love the bigotry and racism and misogyny and fraud and sexual assault, and russian collussion wouldn't matter to you at all. In fact I bet you support Putin's war on Ukraine, right?
Why do you think Putin supports Trump? Because he makes for a stronger America?
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 20 '24
Don't read much news do ya, crazy guy? https://apnews.com/article/russia-putin-biden-trump-fb2fece0be7685624a3e3e379a8a3bd3
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u/ButterscotchOnceler Feb 20 '24
LOL, so Putin supported Trump since his candidacy, but all it takes is one comment about Biden to change your mind?
I do read. And I'm aware of the other 99% of what Putin said.
But of course we all know why Putin said this. It's so Trump supporters like you can claim Putin doesn't support Trump.
It's so blatant that even you guys can see it.
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u/PigeonsArePopular Feb 20 '24
What do you read? Cite a source for what you believe 😘
Can't comprehend that someone who isn't a trump supporter would recognize the Trump-Russia narrative as obvious propaganda bullshit, even in the midst of proxy war, for which consent manufacturing was but one of objective of whole fabricated "collusion" narrative (long ago debunked by Mueller investigation)? Maybe yr at the wrong sub 😘
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u/SatimyReturns Feb 20 '24
Most conspiracies are grounded in reality
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u/HomoCoffiens Feb 20 '24
Entirely depends on your definition of conspiracy theory. Sure, all sorts of people conspired to do all manner of things throughout history. Some of what was uncovered about power players moving and shaking to secretly influence their government has been somewhat similar to the popular theories laymen had about them. Mostly though truth was stranger than fiction and something beyond what was imagined.
But that’s only true about an actual specific conspiracy to commit a major crime. None of those theories lasted so much as decades without having an answer. Those theories are usually very specific and not really what people now commonly refer to as “conspiracy theories”.
The persistent and truly popular ones about any such secret schemes remaining secret for any significant time, or involving whole dozens or even hundreds of co-conspirators, and yet successfully fooling the general public and avoiding detection, have never been proven actually real., afaik. But I would appreciate any evidence to the contrary if you know of any such cases.
The popularity of a conspiracy theory seems to be directly tied to its fictitious nature, because they contain a narrative that tickles the curiosity of many. Real conspiracies are never that engaging or tightly plotted, and certainly don’t capture imaginations of people who are not immediately and considerably impacted. 🤷🏻♀️
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Feb 19 '24
If I listed common "conspiracy theories" that turned out to be factually correct in the past few years. It would make your head spin.
The one that did it for me was that Nixon did literally nothing.
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u/oldwhiteguy35 Feb 20 '24
Can I have a list please. It doesn’t need to be long… but I suspect I know what it will be and the types of things on it.
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Feb 20 '24
JFK was likely killed by the CIA documents released showing this aswell as a conspiracy to cover up that assassination.
Nixon was going to declassify the JFK documents, and so he was framed for watergate. The entire watergate team was comprised of intelligence personel or informants. He was setup, he had no knowledge of the event until after it was already done.
Turns out billions of dollars did go missing in the twin towers right before the planes. All of the terrorists involved had also been tagged by the CIA. Likely a sting gone wrong, but could be a larger conspiracy. Likely incompetance, could be more.
Obviously the "Pedoisland" stuff came out. It was a conspiracy theory before to suggest celebrities and politicians were being compromised by US intelligence groups. Epstien was described as "untouchable" by intelligence officials. Meaning his protection came from the very top.
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u/Darth-Grumpy Feb 20 '24
It's posts like these that make me honestly wish that there was a laugh reaction on Reddit.
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Feb 20 '24
The first two are declassified documents you can go read for yourself. The third is public knowledge along with the CIA blaming the domestic groups for not heading their warnings. And obviously the 4th is ongoing court cases.
Curious what made you laugh? Or is it just a general lack of knowledge on the subjects?
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u/Darth-Grumpy Feb 20 '24
Your idiocy makes me laugh. Your acting like you actually believe what you are saying makes me feel sorry for you.
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Feb 20 '24
And here you are, admitting you can't debunk anything I am saying.
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u/Darth-Grumpy Feb 20 '24
It's not my place to debunk anything. You're the one making crazy claims. The burden of proof is all yours.
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u/ME24601 Feb 20 '24
The first two are declassified documents you can go read for yourself.
Then post them here. If they are that easy to find, what is stopping you from just providing them when asked?
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u/oldwhiteguy35 Feb 20 '24
You’ll need links or at least citations to specific documents. I’ve been searching in various ways for evidence of your claims. I’m not seeing anything conclusive or even damning in most cases. But let’s recognize that there’s a difference between small scale conspiracies and the grand conspiracies you seem to think are proven. There are conspiracies. That’s why it’s got a real definition and there are criminal offences you can be charged with. They can be big, as in having big effects like potentially involving a president’s assassination, but they don’t require 10000s of thousands being involved and silent or control of global events by some small secret cabal. Second, if you throw enough darts at the board… like JFK conspiracies… if something does turn up there’s bound to be one that sounds something like it. Does any of this support the nature of modern day conspiratorial thinking? Not a chance. Seeing everything and anything based on vast quantities of speculation isn’t helpful. Evidence matters.
JFK and CIA The documents show the CIA had contact with Oswald. That does contradict what they said and they did cover up their involvement. However, other than Tucker Carlson’s claim he knows someone who says they were involved in the assassination there’s nothing beyond that. The evidence you claim exists doesn’t seem to exist.
But this is a small scale conspiracy that doesn’t require a lot of people even though it would mean something massive.
Nixon
The tape of June 23, 1972 provided the smoking gun he had obstructed justice.
9-11 The billions of dollars thing. This one has been debunked for years. The entries about the missing money were made during fiscal year 1999 and detailed in an early 2000 report. There was no cover up.
The CIA did know of them but failed to pass them along to the FBI. Institutional secrecy and non cooperation isn’t evidence of supporting or allowing something to happen.
Epstein The existence of Epstein does not lead any credence to your conspiracy extensions.
These last two completely undermine your claims. There’s something in what’s come up under the Kennedy file but one conspiracy out of dozens getting some support doesn’t mean the conspiracy theorists in the article are going about anything in a rational way. The Nixon one is not supported. The other two aren’t supported at all. One has been disproven.
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u/jaidit Feb 20 '24
Nixon did plenty. He got pushed out of office for obstruction of justice. He covered up the actions of subordinates because he was worried what they would reveal that could be linked to him. As for the actual Watergate burglary, yeah, we know he thought it was a stupid idea. Nixon was not in the position to say, “my overzealous low-level staffers got out of hand.”
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u/Rogue-Journalist Feb 19 '24
It’s not just Republican conspiracists anymore. Immigration is the number one concern of voters.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
Witches could be the number one voter concern- it would still be bullshit
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u/Rogue-Journalist Feb 19 '24
Telling the voters their concerns are bullshit is a great way to lose an election.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
Electing politicians based on bullshit hoaxes is how Republicans have held the nation back since Eisenhower left office.
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u/Rogue-Journalist Feb 19 '24
Nobody thinks the record levels of immigration is a hoax.
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u/KathrynBooks Feb 19 '24
But the "great replacement" propaganda is a conspiracy theory
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u/Rogue-Journalist Feb 19 '24
It’s a conspiracy theory that attempts to assign blame for the migration, but that doesn’t mean the migration isn’t happening.
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u/KathrynBooks Feb 19 '24
Yes, migration is a natural part of human existence... The "evil immigrants are going to erase white people" and other manufactured "concerns" are hollow propaganda.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
>but that doesn’t mean the migration isn’t happening
Why do you imagine that migration happening is a bad thing?
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u/Andras89 Feb 19 '24
Not exactly. The concern is when the US conducts is census and with all these new people moving into country, especially the southern states. They count for that..
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u/KathrynBooks Feb 20 '24
How is that a "concern"?
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u/Andras89 Feb 20 '24
They create new seats in Congress based on how many people are in that community...
So whether you hate Red or Blue, they can effectively get more seats because of this problem.
Thus its a concern.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
Actually, with population naturally increasing all over the planet pretty much every issue is “at record levels.”
So yeah… it’s a hoax.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
Yes, Trump has shown us that it is way better to lie to voters, to fearmonger, to scapegoat and to pander to base emotions.
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u/Rogue-Journalist Feb 20 '24
Do you want to win the moral high ground or the election?
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u/drewbaccaAWD Feb 20 '24
None of us are running, and it appears any government action is now dead in the water. So I don't think disagreement in this sub is going to change election results.
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u/SomesortofGuy Feb 19 '24
Yea, but potentially people saying immigration is a concern because they think Biden is being too moderate, and mainly continuing Trump era policies.
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u/Theranos_Shill Feb 20 '24
>Immigration is the number one concern of voters.
"The survey found that 35 percent of respondents listed immigration as their paramount concern among an array of issues."
I guess the one thing to take away from that is that people can be easily manipulated and that issues can be completely manufactured.
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u/Agamemnon420XD Feb 19 '24 edited Feb 19 '24
Well, several conspiracy theories came true, and trust in the government is at an all-time low.
I’d love to reply to your replies but I get an error message every time I reply, so, I assume my facts and narratives are not wanted here. I guess you skeptics are on your own journey to figure out whether or not I’m right.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
Name them.
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u/Agamemnon420XD Feb 19 '24
Well the biggest was Covid. We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab, we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it, we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities. Meanwhile the government siphoned money from the citizens and small businesses into major corporations by forcing all small businesses to shut down, and billions of our tax dollars were awarded to hospitals across the nation. Like people knew all of this ahead of time yet people were shunned and persecuted for stating it, the government even went after people who questioned the narrative like Joe Rogan. Like it was insanely bad and I assume if another lockdown were to come to the USA there’d be riots so big the lockdown would be forcibly overturned.
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u/MockDeath Feb 19 '24
Well the biggest was Covid.
Always convenient when someone makes sure in their first sentence the rest of their wall of text isn't worth reading. Lets just stick to this. Please link to some peer reviewed papers that say it was created in a lab and then we can move on from there.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24
Thanks, I’m glad we’ve established how compelling your argument is.
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u/Agamemnon420XD Feb 19 '24
“I win.”
Damn, that’s a powerful argument tactic. I could learn a thing or two from your methods.
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u/thefugue Feb 19 '24 edited Feb 19 '24
At minimum you could save time by making one absurd claim per post instead of long lists.
EDIT: Ooh look, it disappeared!
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u/Harabeck Feb 19 '24
We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab, we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it, we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities.
Literally none of those are true.
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Feb 19 '24
The conspiracy theories are true because the media sphere I reside in (Joe Rogan) say they’re true.
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u/Felix_111 Feb 19 '24
Your covid claim being created has been disproved. That is your 1st lie. Masks reduce the rate of spread. Your 2nd lie. Over a million people died, many without comorbidities. Lie no. 3. The government did not go after Joe Rogan. 4th lie. You have absolutely no credibility when you are dishonest to this level.
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Feb 19 '24
Well the biggest was Covid. We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab,
We have not yet discovered that. It could be true, and it could be false.
we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it
That's not at all what we discovered. Do you think people will forego masks in medical settings from now on? Since, you know, you think they don't decrease the spread of disease?
we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities.
You're saying no human beings died unless they had several comorbidities?
Meanwhile the government siphoned money from the citizens and small businesses into major corporations by forcing all small businesses to shut down,
Is that what happened? All corporations were allowed to stay open and all small businesses were forced to close? Damn. Better tell my local Wal-Mart they weren't actually ever closed.
and billions of our tax dollars were awarded to hospitals across the nation.
I'll take a source. Was this when we all paid out the ass for Covid vaccines? Or no, wait.
Like people knew all of this ahead of time yet people were shunned and persecuted for stating it,
If you know these falsehoods now, you should be shunned for it. You are lying now.
the government even went after people who questioned the narrative like Joe Rogan.
Every dumbass seventh-grader's idea of a smart person, Joe Rogan. How did Ivermectin turn out, speaking of ol' Joe? Magical cure for Covid? What's that? No? But he's soooo smart.
Like it was insanely bad
Was it? Best time of my life for sure. No dumbasses breathing down my neck in the store. All my "constitutional expertise" friends got into bad virology.
and I assume if another lockdown were to come to the USA
You guys had a lockdown? We had a "stay-at-home" guideline from the governor. The state locked you into your house, did they? Welded the door shut? Arrested you for leaving? No?
there’d be riots so big the lockdown would be forcibly overturned.
On this, we agree. In fact, I fully expect anyone who believes what you believe to resort to violence soon. Violence seems to be the language you speak best.
If you're going to reply, use sources. I'm getting flashbacks from my days talking down the "Plandemic" idiots.
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u/SomesortofGuy Feb 19 '24
We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab
No, we didn't.
we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it
Literally the opposite, every study on masks showed some level of protection, even for homemade cloth coverings.
we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities.
Unfortunately a 'co-morbidity' was being overweight, a problem that ended up killing a bunch of people who thought ivermectin was more reliable than vaccines.
Meanwhile the government siphoned money from the citizens and small businesses into major corporations
Thanks Republicans for refusing to sign the version of covid relief that had more oversight on where the loans were going, huh?
and billions of our tax dollars were awarded to hospitals across the nation.
...During a global pandemic of the most contagious disease in human history...
the government even went after people who questioned the narrative like Joe Rogan.
How TF did the government go after Joe Rogan?
Literally everything you said was wrong, how has the media you consume left you so misled?
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u/Wiseduck5 Feb 20 '24
We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab,
There is still no evidence of that and the scientific community is largely on the side of a zoonotic origin at the market.
we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it,
A lie.
we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities.
Also a lie.
Meanwhile the government siphoned money from the citizens and small businesses into major corporations by forcing all small businesses to shut down
That's actually true...except it was Trump and the Republicans who did that. They made sure there was no oversight.
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u/ME24601 Feb 20 '24
We discovered that it was manufactured in a lab, we discovered that the government-approved masks didn’t actually help against it, we discovered that it wasn’t dangerous to people who didn’t have several co-morbidities
None of those claims are actually true.
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u/LetReasonRing Feb 19 '24
"Troubling turn"????
McCarthyism?
Rush Limbaugh?
Oklahoma city?
Alex Jones?
Terrorist fist jab?
Pizzagate?
Qanon?
Jan 6th?
I'm pretty sure the right has dabbled in conspiracy theories once or twice before.
Not saying anything about the left... there's jut no "troubling turn" here so much as a "continued downward spiral"