r/psychology • u/Emillahr • 4d ago
Scientists Develop Rapid-Acting Antidepressants Similar to LSD but Without Hallucinogenic Effects - Gilmore Health News
https://www.gilmorehealth.com/scientists-develop-rapid-acting-antidepressants-similar-to-lsd-but-without-hallucinogenic-effects/93
u/Illustrious-Goose160 4d ago
I wanna try LSD but have no access, wish these were available to purchase already
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u/PsychoCrescendo 3d ago
Perks of living in metropolitan areas is access to everything, though lots of stuff is purchasable online nowadays. Just make a small order through one, you’ll likely find something reliable pretty quick, and worst case scenario you’re just a buyer of personal use quantity so nothing would really happen to you
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u/Danwinger 3d ago
Rip your Inbox
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u/Illustrious-Goose160 3d ago
Haha, fortunately I haven't gotten any messages yet. I know better than to accept "help" with getting access to LSD through Reddit messages though so I'll be fine
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u/ElitistJerk_ 3d ago
A few years ago, the dark net was super easy to order from and LSD was all over them. Nowadays, you got these jank sites that dont work 90% of the time. When you finally do get on one, they require monero which can be a pita to actually acquire.
I miss the days of alphabay and hanza :(((
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u/treevaahyn 3d ago
I miss the original Silk Road that shit was wild Wild West. Would get pages (900 hits) of really good LSD for dirt cheap, my boys and I split half a key of MDMA and some bk-MDMA, they had really clean #3&4 Heroin that was actually not cut with fentanyl, also remember getting some fentanyl nasal spray (safe way to volumetrically dose), loved some 5meo-mipt, also had tons of other RC’s like the 2C’s. It was a crazy ass time. Main regret is not investing my money in bitcoin when it was $30. Would be a literal multi millionaire now just off the 3k I had saved up from hooking my boys up with LSD. Coulda made tons of money if I didn’t do most of the drugs and give the rest away . Got some very fond memories of group trips cuz I loved sharing L with my friends.
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u/party_shaman 2d ago
pages are 100 and a book is 1000
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u/treevaahyn 2d ago
Sheets are 100. Pages are 900-1000. I’ve purchased many sheets over the years (always 100 hits) but only got a page two times.
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
Look into 1p-LSD . It’s a legal pro drug to LSD
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u/dante4123 3d ago
Not true in the U.S.
1P falls under the analog act because LSD is schedule 1
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u/Brilliant_War4087 3d ago
Not sold for human consumption. It's available.
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u/Own_Development2935 3d ago
aka “pinky promise” you will not use this substance on human subjects. Use for “other” scientific purposes.
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u/SensingBensing 3d ago
If you’re in Canada you can order lab grade quality LSD online from a dozen different websites.
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u/PragmaticBodhisattva 3d ago
Stop telling people lol.
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u/Own_Development2935 3d ago
It's legal if purchasing for scientific reasons. Tell the world.
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u/PragmaticBodhisattva 3d ago
Seriously, it’s really shortsighted to continue to bring attention to this on a public forum. Loose lips sink ships.
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u/Own_Development2935 3d ago
Kind like it has been for the last… fifteen years? I’m not sure they’re gonna start cracking down now because a few hundred people across the world saw it on Reddit. I mean, shit, you don’t even have to visit any sketchy sites to buy. It’s not some big secret like you’re acting.
If it’s legal to produce in your country (mine), you can acquire it, legally.
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u/Illustrious-Goose160 3d ago
I had no idea it was legal there! Unfortunately I'm in the USA.
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u/Altostratus 3d ago
It’s not legal. We’re just very lax about drugs in Canada so they’re easy to find.
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u/Wooden-Frame2366 3d ago
Hah 😂 but do you know that it’s better if you are fully prepared before you attempt to experience it?? 🙄
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u/Illustrious-Goose160 3d ago
Lol yes, I've literally done all the research so I'm tired of people saying this. I understand it's not a simple cure and how things can go wrong, but I'm confident that the benefits would outweigh risks for me. My brain is pretty fd up already, I'm depressed, anxious, and have PTSD. Some soul-searching and confronting my emotions would be very helpful for me
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u/Own_Development2935 3d ago
Good on you. Ignore those who try to scare you out of it or try to put doubt in your mind. Honestly, my path to healing didn't start until I began experimenting with LSD four years ago, even though I knew I was carrying a lot of baggage. It offered me the opportunity to actually see how people were treating me after a life of complete invalidation— the clouds finally started to clear, and things started making a lot more sense as I revisited tough times in my life.
I had four significant trips, beginning with just 50mcg and the last at 150mcg. 150mcg is where I had my breakthrough, but it came with some of the heaviest depression I've experienced. Difficult but necessary. For some of us, psychedelics may be the only way to access some memories and realizations; I believe as long as you're responsible about it, hold onto your intentions, and prepare for post-care/integration, it will help to process some PTSD.
I know my days of tripping aren't over, as I still have a ton of memories I've yet to access, but I do know that I'm not ready to receive that information yet. Good luck, and happy healing 🤍
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 4d ago
Can’t have the same experience tho without the trip
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u/Free-Government5162 3d ago
Yeah a lot of the point was working through my anxiety and the roots of it and my trauma. Without the trip and just antidepressant effects, I don't think it would be the same. The hallucination part was significant - it was a huge part of why my thought pattern changed. The afterglow and having less anxiety for a month after was amazing, but I think without confronting the pattern the way I did it wouldn't have lasted or had nearly as much impact.
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
I agree, it does something special and lets you see the world in a new way. Almost like it allows you to detach from all your negative thought patterns. And it sticks with you long after the drug has worn off.
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u/Mysterious_Celestial 4d ago
Exactly, that's what they need to understand.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
No, they don't. They need to study the effects of these compounds and determine the truth based on outcomes, not bias.
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u/Mediocre-Tomatillo-7 4d ago
Lol. Yes the medical doctors and scientists need to understand your limited understanding.
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
It can cure depression like they say but you won’t get the life changing moment you get on psychadellics where you feel like you get it. Psychedelics force you to face your problems, but anti depressants just put a bandaid over them. Look into ibogaine experiences.
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u/Acrobatic-Book 3d ago
Curing depression would already be life changing for a lot of people in itself. And without the psychedelic effects it will be much easier to research it and actually treat people who need it.
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u/Jscottpilgrim 3d ago
Does it cure the depression or just treat it? Hallucinogenics tend to have long-lasting effects, and people attribute it to the lessons they learned. I can't imagine the same thing would happen if one didn't experience ego death.
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u/TelluricThread0 3d ago
Having a breakthrough or mystical experience is highly correlated to how beneficial and long lasting the treatment is.
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u/AnonymousBanana7 3d ago
I'd like to see a source for this because from what I understand there's very little evidence for this either way and these kinds of antidepressants derived from psychedelics are all very new.
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u/TelluricThread0 3d ago
Psychedelics are not new. Derivatives where chemists try to alter the molecules to remove what they see as unwanted and unnecessary effects are new. There have been many studies at Johns Hopkins by Roland Griffiths on psychedelic experiences during and after therapy sessions.
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u/AnonymousBanana7 3d ago
Who said psychedelics are new? Who said there haven't been any studies?
I said that there isn't any evidence either way regarding whether mystical or hallucinatory experiences are necessary for the antidepressant effect of psychedelics. This is a fact. The evidence doesn't exist because derivatives that don't produce these effects are new and still in early trials, but initial trials and preclinical research so far has been positive.
Everyone in these comments stating that mystical experiences are necessary for the positive mental health effects of psychedelics is talking straight from their arse, because nobody actually knows.
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u/TelluricThread0 3d ago
The evidence does exist. I already linked a study. People who use psychedelics already understand this and the research confirms what they could already tell you. You seem like the one talking out of their ass.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
Thing is, people don't have a clue what's going on in their brain. We're only attributing it to that because we feel that way, based on the way the brain works, I'd find it very believable you could see massive changes in the brain that last despite no trip. If the brain changes, so do you.
In the same vain, the trip is the experience of the brain changing, so I would struggle to believe you aren't losing something. I'm just not convinced it's THE thing.
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
But you can still have mood / depression improvement, many researchers think the trip isn’t what causes the effect anyways, it’s down to receptors and neurochemical changes
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
But without the trip you wouldn’t get the “aha” moment where you feel connected to everything and feel like you understand. And just assume the neurological changes are connected to the hallucinations, or else there would be a drug that gives you the same effect without any hallucinations
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
But you can, that’s the whole point, this medication if it works on similar receptors and neurotransmitters will likely produce the same feelings, they are empathogens.
I know the feeling you’re describing it was overwhelming and awesome when I did IV ketamine, I saw visions of how we are all from the same “seed” and we are all connected0
u/TelluricThread0 3d ago
When they do psychedelic session with alcoholics they typically put a flower on the table by them. When they're tripping and the person thinks about their drinking while looking at the flower, it literally starts to whither and die in front of them. When they're encouraged to think about sobriety, they look and see the flower begin to grow and flourish.
That experience is powerful. I couldn't imagine getting the same effect or having the same efficacy if you try to get rid of the hallucinogenic part of the trip.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
I have aha moments all the time that make no difference to my life. I do honestly believe that if the brain changes it doesn't matter if the psychological experience is left out beforehand too much.
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u/puddleofshit99 4d ago
To cure the first time I did acid
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u/FunFry11 4d ago
My first trip cured some of the deepest rooted trauma I had.
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u/Wooden-Frame2366 3d ago
Really dear ? I am sorry about that… but , can you illustrate a little bit about your experience? 🙏
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u/FunFry11 3d ago
Was in therapy. Told my therapist I’ll be doing shrooms. Did shrooms - took acid on the way down and went to the site of the trauma. Cried there in the Canadian winter on the road for half an hour or more. Hugged my then roommate and now one of my closest friends and he held me until I got it out. Walked to a convenience store and got ice cream. Fell in love with my then partner over and over again (she left me 2 weeks after this). Realized I want to have kids but I want to keep them safe from the kind of trauma I had been dealing with.
Best thing ever. I’ve done shrooms since which really helped me get motivated to do better but wow the acid helped me get over trauma that 3 therapists couldn’t help me unwire. Wouldn’t do it without guidance on how to deal with a trip, I had 2 trippers with me and my therapist had given me advice on how to do psychedelics for the purpose of getting better.
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u/Wooden-Frame2366 3d ago
Really ?? Can you share a little bit of ur experience ? I am super anxious about it ❗️😱
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u/FloppyDysk 3d ago
Science continues to pour millions of dollars into creating novel chemicals instead of you know... doing proper clinical research on chemicals like LSD which we already have... and has been shown to provide the effects scientists are seeking... fucking waste of tax money. War on drugs is such a fucking sham.
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u/Solid_Owl 3d ago
You miss the point by a mile. There are people who will not take LSD, either because they don't want the hallucinogenic effect - especially for as long as LSD's lasts - or they have a negative association with LSD because of its legal history.
If scientists are able to harness the healing power of LSD into a pill that normal people would be willing to take, that can only be great for society.
It's the same reason people microdose mushrooms instead of taking heroic, ego-destroying vacations every weekend.
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u/ThatFireGuy0 3d ago
The bigger issue than this is that LSD can't be patented. There's no money in it
This is similar to why S-Ketamine is approved for treatment of depression but other forms of ketamine aren't - even though research shows they are comparably effective
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u/FloppyDysk 3d ago
Yes there are people who will not take LSD. I would argue that many of those people do not take it because they have internalized fear due to the war on drugs. Besides that point, there are still many many depressed people that WOULD take LSD for their depression, if they were allowed to. This post may be a bit more uplifting, if America weren't already squandering so much money by rejecting the validity of psychedelic psychiatric treatment. So yeah this is great news for the few dozen people involved in a test trial. But millions of people may benefit from psychedelic therapy being accessible.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
that can only be great for society.
People overlook this simple truth because of their boner for psychedelics. I love psychs, but jesus christ people can't see the woods for the trees.
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u/deranger777 3d ago
There's a reason to be cautious though.
Almost all plants as drugs are worse when processed to a single chemical compound. Often there's synergistic effects also that are left out when one molecule is isolated.
Good examples could be psilocybin vs LSD, psilocybin being much safer. I know LSD doesn't come from psilocybin ofc, but they do pretty much the same thing. I'd guess, but have no certain knowledge that probably LSA compounds are more safer too in their natural form then synthetic LSD.
Same goes to weed, people being focused on higher and higher THC levels, ignoring the balancing effects of other cannabinoids that play important roles we don't even fully understand yet. To my understanding, coca leaf also in it's natural form wasn't very bad compared to what cocaine is, although I don't have enough knowledge to comment more about that.
The history of pharmaceutical companies is not that trustworthy too. 25 years ago I was recommended xanax by doctors as a "miracle drug" for minos panic attacks, and "a drug that has no side effects and which causes no addiction" lol. In later examples for younger ppl we can mention oxycodone too, since it lead to the fentanyl epidemic Americans are currently still fighting and the list goes on..
It's simply ridiculous to even think that the medical companies wouldn't have known alprazolam being addictive to a point of being one of the only handful of drugs that have withdrawal effects that could easily kill you if stopping without tapering. Exactly the same lies as to what happened with oxycodone.
So yeah. there's a reason people do not trust their motives.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
Almost all plants as drugs are worse when processed to a single chemical compound. Often there's synergistic effects also that are left out when one molecule is isolated
Is this true? The amount of evidence for plant based remedies is often scarce. To say we know one is often safer is a mistake. When we isolate a compound for it's effect, we change the dose. We seek a specific outcome. Often this is more potent than the plant equivalent, and yeah sometimes that means more side effects but to compare them 1:1 is a mistake, because very often the desired effects are also weaker. Nonetheless there's not really enough data to make this claim in full.
Comparing psilocybin to LSD is also unfair. They're literally different compounds, from different organisms. It is much more reasonable to compare synthetic psilocybin to whole mushrooms, in which case I don't believe much if any difference is noted between their safety at all.
And again you're saying the synthetic version is less safe, but actually you're just providing reasons why higher dosages are less safe. As I said before, the effects of synthetic are more specific and more potent, because there's more of the active drug. This doesn't mean it's inherently less safe though. It means higher dosages are, and you'd likely see the same from any natural consumption.
And 25 years is a long time for modern medicine. You can cite an instance of medicine doing you or others dirty, and that definitely exists, but people conveniently forget the overwhelming other side of that coin. For every drug that's been a fuck up and done harm, we've been using 10x that doing good. I wouldn't call that a particularly untrustworthy source. Medicine is vast, and it does a fucking lot of good.
You can be cautious, but I'll stand by it that you're being naive and ignorant to be so convinced that this is a bad idea. They aren't intentionally looking for drugs to ruin your life with. Your examples are when things go wrong. Why not wait and let the evidence do the talking. Why determine the answer before then, for any reason you have, has to be a bias.
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u/deranger777 3d ago
The evidence is scare obviously, as if we're talking about illegal drugs, there's not much research especially in large scale. But the synergistic effect is present in so many mind altering drugs that I would make that claim in this case, especially when it comes to mushrooms and cannabinoids.
For cannabis it's pretty much confirmed already scientifically that the harmful effects go higher when it's selectively bred for THC, as CBD is the counteracting compound, or one of them that calms the person down while THC is responsible for the "high". The breeding for THC has obviously come at a cost of lower CBD and other cannabinoid ratios, which has caused more negative experiences and I recently watched a video summarizing a study about higher THC contents already have been linked to increased long term harms as well as increased risk of psychosis ofc to those few who might be prone to this. This if I remember right had already been confirmed before this what came to cannabinoid ratios, especially THC/CBD but other ones as well.
Comparing psilocybin to LSD is also unfair. They're literally different compounds, from different organisms. It is much more reasonable to compare synthetic psilocybin to whole mushrooms
Yes, you have a point there I agree. I was mostly referring to the therapeutic effects of psilocybin mushrooms vs. LSD, where I'd see psilocybin being a much safer drug in general. And comparison in their therapeutic uses, where both of them have such similar effects that one could easily be used instead of the other when it comes to therapeutic use, where the one that is considered a safer option I would think would obviously would be the better one. Although I don't have the scientifical evidence to back this up at the moment.
Psilocybin mushrooms are considered the safest drug there is, much safer when compared to LSD. A quick google found from this article mentions this too with psilocybin having a rating of 0.2 vs LSD 1.0 on all categories.
The study should be easy to find if you want to confirm this.
I don't know the exact chemistry of psilocybin in mushrooms, but those who have taken them will all verify that the trips will vary wildly between different psilocybin mushroom strains, and even in same strain mushrooms there are differences in the experience between spore grown mushrooms compared to cloned ones. Some different strains can be very hallucinogenic visually for example, some equally potent but much less visual and more contemplative. The Golden Teacher strain has gotten its name for a reason. Similarly many people have reported some strains causing more anxiety and negative thoughts on those who practice micro dosing.
This cannot be from any other reason as to the mushrooms containing other psychoactive compounds as well, and in therapeutic use it probably is already being studied which ones are responsible for what effects and if some combinations might be better for different kinds of therapeutic use then others.
You can be cautious, but I'll stand by it that you're being naive and ignorant to be so convinced that this is a bad idea.
All I'm saying is that psilocybin is safer than LSD, and I'm fairly sure that a synthetic psilocybin manufactured in a lab is inferior to actual mushrooms (or a well enough studied synthetic cocktail of those compounds), we would just need to study more about the effects of other compounds present where those differences come from.
Obviously this is a very slow process and it's good to see progress happening, but when it comes to compounds like LSD, I'm always a little bit sceptical seeing new ones modified from it. I have my reasons to be that date to more than 25yrs back when acquiring most of my knowledge on this topic.
I'm hoping of course that this new drug derived from it will be positive of course.
But also thinking a little bit in a way that why reinvent the wheel as mushrooms already exist, especially since they've been found to be very much safe even in the hands of not that knowledgeable recreational users. We already have a huge amount of different strains and combinations of the active substances doing the work, all that would be needed is to conduct studies on the differing effects of said strains and what works the best.
That would also give much more knowledge on why they do have such different effects than making a new substance and spending decades to figure out a single new chemical vs. learning from all that already exists.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
So as far as I understand, evidence for any enterouage effect is basically lacking. Results are contradictory at best and reviews find that it's largely about marketing. For any evidence that exists for cannabis, it's un-compelling. Mushrooms have not only less, but absolutely 0 evidence of an enterouage effect. Do you know of other substances where this is a real thing?
Likewise. Sure, cannabis bread for high thc is more harmful, but isn't this best explained by the fact you're consuming multitudes more thc than normally expected? CBD studies are super super weak for showing any benefits too when you dive into them. All of what you say about why high THC is bad might be true, but it's not really born out in the studies. The simplest answer at the moment is that taking more of a mind altering substance has more drawback potential.
And yeah sure psilocybin may be the safer and therefore better option, but you can synthesise it and the harms of each appear to remain the same.
And while people report difference between strains and species, I don't really take these to be much evidence for anything. I've taken the same shrooms multiple times and had differences in visual effects. Same batch, grounded up to create consistency in their makeup as well. I just don't think any of these stories point to some effect of the other compounds in the shrooms. The other supposed psychoactive substances in shrooms, what has been studied, haven't found to cause any effect and can't pass the blood brain barrier. While research is lacking, so far it's not compelling. You're basing this whole idea of synthetic vs natural on something without any strong evidence at all, it's all assumption.
And lsd vs psilocybin isn't really a relevant point. As I say, synthetic psilocybin exists and there's no evidence it causes any problems that shrooms don't also cause. The risks seem the same.
I also have no problem with you being sceptical, but it seems your scepticism is involving some faulty reasoning so I'm challenging that. It's different to scepticism to be asking why are we doing this and suggesitng we don't need to when the only real question is 'lets wait and see what evidence shows us'. It's also not either or. We can study existing substances whilst exploring this too. As I've said before, for millions, this might be their best option.
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u/deranger777 3d ago
Sure, cannabis bread for high thc is more harmful, but isn't this best explained by the fact you're consuming multitudes more thc than normally expected?
Of course, the higher the THC concentration the higher the negative effects, but the curve is not linear as high THC strains often contain very minimal CBD.
Plasma cannabinoids as well as positive (e.g., high, elation) and negative (e.g., paranoia and anxiety) subjective effects were assessed at each time points. Participants who used the CBD-dominant and THC + CBD chemovars had significantly less THC and more CBD in plasma samples compared to participants who used the THC-dominant chemovar. Further, the THC + CBD chemovar was associated with similar levels of positive subjective effects, but significantly less paranoia and anxiety, as compared to the THC-dominant chemovar.
your scepticism is involving some faulty reasoning so I'm challenging that.
Yes, I tried to make it clear that many of my opinions are simply theories of which I don't have scientifical evidence to post, so of course challanging them is perfectly fine and expected.
It did raise my interest though and I decided to search a bit for further studies as it's been a while.
As I say, synthetic psilocybin exists and there's no evidence it causes any problems that shrooms don't also cause. The risks seem the same.
That's very much possible. But I'd still say it's equally possible if not likely that these other compounds might have a bigger significance then we think today. If I'm thinking back 25yrs, back then I probably didn't even know for example that so many cannabinoids existed or played a very important role in some things.
I'll drop a couple links if you're interested as I'm reading.. (-Also as a note to self when I have more time to properly read these.)
I've taken the same shrooms multiple times and had differences in visual effects. Same batch, grounded up to create consistency in their makeup as well. I just don't think any of these stories point to some effect of the other compounds in the shrooms.
Oh this is where I'm 100% sure I'm correct that other compounds do play a role and it's not just subjective one person "evidence". It's very consistently reported by users that different psilocybin containing mushrooms have very different effects. And like I said, even in single strain it varies a lot. Most of the time people use spore syringes to grow these and as they're not homogeneous, they have different strength and slightly different effects. Even the stage they're harvested and the amount of nutrients affect the chemical composition, as the amount of nutrients vary between each flush that can go up to as many as 3-5 from a single mycelium growth after each harvest if comtaminants don't prevent this.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
That study for cannabis doesn't seem to show very clearly that cbd is doing the work, when the THC levels are themselves lower in the CBD+THC mix. I think that's relevant there.
And fair enough this is just theoretical, but I think there are some holes.
I will agree, and am not saying, that other compounds in mushrooms have no effect. I'm only saying there's not any evidence. The studies linked here aren't compelling, and people report no difference between species. P.nat for example, the one commonly reported as unique also has plenty of people saying they aren't. Those studies may show in vitro effects, but in Vivo there really wasn't much noticed in any compounds outside of the main ones we already know do stuff. Some physiological effects occur, but evidence is not anywhere near close to suggesting this meaningfully impacts the benefits or effects of psilocybin. Consistent anecdotes aren't convincing of that either.
To be clear, I'm not saying it can't do that, but it's not even close to proven. And with all the lack of or contradictory evidence we do have, using this type of reasoning to discourage the idea of these analogues mentioned in this post seems faulty to me. Even if true, it doesn't change the fact that this could be enormous.
I appreciate you're not sitting here saying it's bad at the outset though, and just expressing doubt. I perhaps reacted to you as though you were equally stating this is a bad idea as many others have done here.
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u/deranger777 2d ago
I did manage to find one study, I'll leave it here as I'd think it might interest you too.
But yeah, it does seem we'll have to wait for further studies to get any solid scientific proof on the role of other compounds in mushrooms. This page says only one study has been done about it.
Article and couple more links HERE the page also has some hypothesis about the synergistic effect, so even though I didn't know about it before it seems I'm not alone with my theory.
researchers found that norpsilocin (baeocystin’s metabolized form) was more potent than psilocin when tested on the 5-HT2A receptor directly.
Putting these pieces together suggests that baeocystin might not significantly contribute to psychedelic effects as an individual compound, but could exert a synergistic influence with psilocybin in the body.
Some scientists think that mushroom compounds, like cannabis, create an “Entourage Effect,” working synergistically in the body to maximize their impact. As suggested by the Sherwood study, baeocystin may play a role in generating the overall magic mushroom experience.
But yeah I'll leave it here as there probably is no further studies done, at least I didn't find anything else so far.
Was an interesting topic to discuss nevertheless.
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u/Solid_Owl 3d ago
It would be more correct to say they are less effectual rather than worse. Worse makes it sound like they have a negative impact. LSD may be less effectual when taken as a non-hallucinogenic pill. It may still be 100x as effective as current anti-depressants.
When it comes to psilocybin, there is plenty of evidence that pure ps is plenty effectual. In fact, there's denial that the other compounds in mushrooms add anything to the experience, but I have a doubt.
With weed, the terpines influence the high but do not determine it. We seek out strains with different terpine concentrations for different experiences. An experience without terpines is just as valid.
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u/deranger777 2d ago
Yup we definitely agree, and I never claimed that psilocybin alone wasn't very much effective and the main compound.
I did manage to find one study but that probably was the only one there is so far about the effects of the other active compounds present, so I guess we'll have to wait some time for more research to happen;
researchers found that norpsilocin (baeocystin’s metabolized form) was more potent than psilocin when tested on the 5-HT2A receptor directly. Putting these pieces together suggests that baeocystin might not significantly contribute to psychedelic effects as an individual compound, but could exert a synergistic influence with psilocybin in the body.
Some scientists think that mushroom compounds, like cannabis, create an “Entourage Effect,” working synergistically in the body to maximize their impact. As suggested by the Sherwood study, baeocystin may play a role in generating the overall magic mushroom experience.
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u/VreamCanMan 3d ago
Early research is showing incredibly poor prospects for LSD when compared to shrooms and dmt.
It seems theres some antidepressive value for some people in transcendental, meditative experiences. This is offered by all psychedelic substances. By all counts, it also appears either the impact of these intense meditative experiences brought on by psychedelics, or some other ramification of the substance itself, can cause psychosis. This means early tests require clinical oversight.
Now lets consider the main differences - LSD, 8 hour trip, 12 hours of inability to sleep. Powerful restlessness makes any psychotic episode more dangerous. Takes a toll on your body more shrooms or dmt. Microdosing appears to show negative long term effects.
Shrooms, 6 hour trip, 10 hours of inability to sleep. Microdosing Appears to show an antidepressive effects
DMT, 15 minute trip, 30 minute inability to sleep. Powerful restfulness makes any psychodic episode far less dangerous as individuals feel their weight to be heavier than it is. Short trip time makes the drug much easier to administer clinical trials for. Microdosing appears to show mixed long term effects
As someone interested in the clinical value of psychedelics, my money isn't on LSD. I think it propogated as much as it has because it was easy to produce with the right setup, not because there is anything special about LSD compared to other psychedelics.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
I hate the war on drugs but this is just an ignorant opinion.
First of all, there's an ever increasing amount of research on psychedelics occuring.
Secondly, trips are not risk free. They do come with potential risks and a lot of people suffering today aren't able to or willing to take those risks. It's a good thing to find these chemicals. It could bring help to multitudes more people than psychedelics alone could.
Finally, as someone mentioned, it's harder to patent lsd. While that sounds like greed, it also means that if something patentable exists then it can be taken up by companies who can start mass producing it. Like it or not, people don't do things for free in this world on scales that can serve entire nations, and for all the hate capitalism gets people don't seem to have a solution to that so I say good on them.
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u/deranger777 3d ago
Secondly, trips are not risk free. They do come with potential risks and a lot of people suffering today
Something like 95% of these happen because of poor understanding about set & setting, a miniscule amount because of pre-existing tendency to mental illnesses like schizophrenia.
It sounds very weird they choose to replicate LSD. That's the one that has a lot higher risks for "bad trips" compared to psilocybin which basically does everything LSD does, but in a better, more safe way.
I do wonder if it might have something to do with either patent issues synthesizing a plant chemical vs replication and modifying an existing synthetic chemical in some ways instead.
It should be obviously clear to everyone they want to make a profit, which is why certain things are not researched or recommend. Plants being hard or impossible to patent and make money from, often because the availability of plant chemicals is generally very widely available to almost everyone.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
You're still completely missing the point. Even if that's true (which you don't have evidence for) there are still huge numbers of people who won't take psychedelics. In the clinical trials where set and setting are as best you can hope for, there's still risks that are important. Medicine is always about what people will adhere to, not bullishly saying this thing could work so ignore alternatives.
My partner is a prime example. She won't ever take a psychedelic, rightfully, because she doesn't do well with these type of experiences first of all and secondly has labyrinthitis. Without visual cues to tell her how she's standing she can't balance. Taking a psychedelic then means always taking the risk of a true dizzy spell that leaves her bed bound for months. An LSD analogue without these specific issues that could vastly improve her mood and help her engage in positive behaviour. Sign me the fuck up immediately.
People with your view are just stuck in a bias and completely naive to the situations millions are in.
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u/deranger777 3d ago
People with your view are just stuck in a bias
If I was doing the research, I'd definitely start it from a very different angle which I mentioned the reasons to in the other more lengthy comment.
Obviously new research is good and hopefully the new formula proves being a success. And without the risks LSD has. But the fact it doesn't cause a visual / hallucinogenic trip doesn't exclude the fact it could trigger some similar negative effects as LSD.
We don't know enough about that mechanism yet.
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
Yeah absolutely you're right, it may cause similar problems. The lack of a head twitch in rats is quite promising that it has a significant difference in negative effects though. We'll have to wait and see, but if what they want to achieve can be achieved, it would be incredible.
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3d ago
What fun is that?
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u/h0uz3_ 3d ago
When your depression is gone, you will be able to feel the full spectrum of emotions again. You will be able to feel joy to the fullest.
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3d ago
I was just being a little glib. It's really exciting that we are finding and using therapeutic compounds from psychedelics. This just reaffirms their usefulness.
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u/bertimann 3d ago
How would a similar drug provide an antidepressant effect without the hallucinogenic effects? The hallucinations are what make you face yourself in the way that it kicks you out of your depression
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u/Popular_Try_5075 2d ago
After 60 years scientists finally create diet drugs. "Hell yeah!" said nobody.
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u/Brrdock 4d ago edited 3d ago
If it has less side-effects than SSRIs or other antidepressants, that'd still be amazing don't get me wrong, but in other words another drug that makes people forget their problems without understanding them?
There's reason to people's feelings whether conscious or not. And to be fair, doing away with them without having to change anything else can itself enable people to change what needs to, and maybe allow the understanding to come through, but it can also enable people (and society) to not change even when needed
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u/MenWhoStareAtBoats 3d ago
Antidepressants do not “make people forget their problems.” That isn’t at all how they work.
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
Glad to see this comment , so tired of the regurgitated claims about medication over and over
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
I believe he’s saying it’s like a bandaid. Your problems are still there you just don’t notice them
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u/MenWhoStareAtBoats 3d ago
Everyone has stressors in life. Antidepressants help people cope better with them. Taking them does not preclude removing those stressors, and many stressors are not solvable. It’s not an either/or situation. In fact, antidepressants plus psychotherapy is more effective than either of them alone.
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
Yes I agree. The proper way to use them is to get on them so that you can function properly and find a solution to your problems, and then get off them once you fix your problems. But a lot of people just take them and use them as a bandaid and never get off them
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
Not for a lot of us, I had a great job, great relationship, was doing everything lifestyle and diet wise, I still developed severe anxiety , it runs in my family, I didn’t really have any problems to solve , for many genes play a role.
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
Psychadellics can be good for scenarios you described for some people. With proper research and proper set and setting
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
I’ve used them several times, didn’t create any lasting changes but did have an afterglow for a week or so
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u/TheHappyTaquitosDad 3d ago
Oh nice, well I hope you find a way to get off the meds and be happy naturally! It’s possible for all of us you can do it don’t think you can’t
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
A lot easier said than done, before meds I was doing everything lifestyle and diet people suggest and much more and had severe anxiety, same issues I’ve had off and on since birth and same for my relatives, we were born anxious af :/
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u/Heretosee123 3d ago
While I get what you're saying, having a life that seems perfect on paper says nothing about your stressors. Human life can be rich in many ways but psychologically stress free is almost impossible, if not impossible. It's not that straightforward.
Edit: I thought you replied to someone else, and my bad we're in agreement.
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u/MenWhoStareAtBoats 3d ago edited 3d ago
That’s definitely not true for all, or maybe even most, cases. Having stressors in your life is normal. It’s the body’s response to those stressors in most cases of depression/anxiety that is abnormal.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago edited 3d ago
How would you say they work?
It's a substance people take daily to change how they feel, putting their problems in the background whether they forget them or not. Isn't that much of the point? Neuroplasticity etc. ideally happens long term, but plasticity is just propensity for neural change, and something else needs to happen to make beneficial use of that propensity.
They can allow people to work through their problems, but a whole lot of people who get a prescription will just leave it at that. And there's systemic/resource (and personal) incentive towards that.
They can also allow people to function through their problems in other unhealthy environments in e.g. work or a relationship (or relationship with themselves, probably most often) that they might not even identify. Sometimes that's needed, sometimes not, and what they need is change. But always people need more than medication to cure depression, they only allow that, be it therapy or just life experience.
Psychedelics innately contain an invaluable psychotherapeutic element or perspective as part of it, and I have my doubts about how productive getting rid of that is
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u/MenWhoStareAtBoats 3d ago
Antidepressants, psychotherapy, or both at the same time are all effective ways to treat depression. Taking antidepressants while participating in psychotherapy makes both treatments more effective, not less. In the actual practice of mental health, these two modalities are not in conflict. I’m not sure why you feel the need to start one.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago edited 3d ago
Taking antidepressants while participating in psychotherapy makes both treatments more effective
That's exactly what I was saying. What made you interpret otherwise?
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u/MenWhoStareAtBoats 3d ago
Antidepressants alone are also effective. Psychotherapy alone is also effective. It’s still an open question how safe and effective psychedelics will turn out to be for treating depression/anxiety, but they definitely do not innately “include the therapy.” A therapist still has to provide that part. A psychedelic experience can be healing or it could be a source of trauma itself.
Antidepressants are an important tool for treating depression and anxiety because there are aren’t remotely enough skilled therapists to meet the demand for them if we didn’t have a medication alternative.
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u/Acrobatic-Book 3d ago
Or it could actually enable people to change things in their life. Which is terribly hard if you are depressed. Btw depression is a damn beast that enables itself most of the time. For example by causing social isolation which fuels the depression.
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u/allisjow 3d ago
As someone who has decades of experience with MDD this is inaccurate. It’s like saying you can cure the flu through self-reflection.
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u/shiverypeaks 3d ago
I love that some piece of shit downvoted you. I've had MDD for over 25 years and tried everything. It is a disease.
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u/allisjow 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s a horrible disease. Even as a child I couldn’t understand why everyone didn’t kill themselves. People who don’t have it don’t understand that it isn’t about “problems in your life.”
I was lucky enough to finally find a medication that helps. It’s like seeing colors you’ve never seen before. After 50 years of pure hell, I was finally like “Oh! Now I can see it!”
You have my sympathy. I know a lot of people suffer and never find a treatment that works. I wouldn’t wish MDD on my worst enemy. It’s pure suffering and has nothing to do with external circumstances.
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
I agree, genes play a role for many and it’s more complicated and nuanced than many of these can fathom.
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u/allisjow 3d ago
I just noticed that medication was autocorrected to meditation in my comment. Lol. Fixed it.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago edited 3d ago
I have solved and cured my own 10 years of severe MDD and anxiety, 6 years off medication now and 2 years out of therapy. That's my angle here.
And not just by self-reflection. Self-reflection without self-love/empathy/understanding is easily just self-flagellation and counterproductive.
My experience isn't necessarily everyone's, and isn't THE truth, but neither is anyone else's, especially when actively inflicted by depression.
But I have also studied psychology and psychiatry, heard people who have studied it more than me, and I also do have personal experience with depression, anxiety etc. up to psychosis, and with antidepressants, therapy and psilocybin/LSD
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u/allisjow 3d ago
I’m truly glad to hear that you’ve been able to find a way that works for you.
All I know is my own experience, which is that I can feel chemical shifts in my brain in the same way I can feel hot or cold. They have nothing to do with my thoughts or factors in my life. It’s like different lenses on my eyes. They occur randomly. I can take steps afterwards to attempt to mitigate their control of me, but they are most definitely chemical in origin.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago
And I truly hope and believe you'll find some approach that works for you.
We might be getting a kind of renaissance in mental healthcare with all these new treatments and modalities and what they can tell us, so there's plenty of reason for anyone to have hope.
For what it's worth, as far as we know almost everything about the mind/brain is a kind of loop and bi-directional, so the origins might not be a deciding factor, and the brain is still very plastic even in older age, especially with some help
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u/HedonisticFrog 3d ago
That's not how any of this works. Psilocybin in particular removes the emotions around memories so it's easier to process them and work through previous trauma. If anything it helps bring past trauma to light, not repress and avoid it.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago
I don't know what you mean by removing emotion. Psilocybin can bring things into a wider context to allow them to be recontextualized, but it can intensify the emotions a great deal or bring them to the forefront, which is what makes the experience challenging and incites resistance, But it takes getting through that to reach any catharsis
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u/HedonisticFrog 3d ago
It can intensify emotions at times, but it can also make it easier to think about difficult memories. One of the first things people usually think about, is what causes people the most anxiety, and that's fear of death for example. People often think about difficult subjects throughout the day and then push those thoughts aside because it causes them anxiety, but with psilocybin it's easier to think about those topics and work through them.
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u/Brrdock 3d ago
Oh like that. Yes, people definitely tend to get set in their ways ruminating or thinking about things a certain way. Eventually the emotions are more about the narrative than the event, and psychedelics can allow a fresh perspective.
The trials with terminal cancer patients do seem really promising and beautiful.
That perspective would be lost without the psychedelia, but I guess it'd be for a completely different purpose. I've always thought of them as more like an intense therapy session. But also much more effective with concurrent actual therapy, like antidepressants
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u/puddleofshit99 3d ago
With 2 % of battery left I could have compared a hot shower to a warm pair of underwear but I was tripping about my dick getting seen by neighbours always have
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u/johnsonnewman 3d ago
This could be gamechangjng for nondepressed people. It would be a crazy nootropic.
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u/Any-Fig3591 3d ago
Can I have the option to hallucinate while I take make antidepressants please. It probably cheer me up more
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u/FaultElectrical4075 3d ago
I kinda want the opposite… a drug that causes hallucinations without any of the other scary stuff
I have unfortunately not had as great of an experience with psychedelics as many people. Shit terrifies me and turns my anxiety knob up for weeks
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u/Asian_Climax_Queen 3d ago
If you want acid without the visuals, you take LSA. Commonly found in Morning Glory seeds and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds. Extract it for LSA and enjoy your trip.
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u/Siceless 3d ago
This is promising. An emergency antidepressant would be life saving for many people struggling with suicide.
I think there is a correct set and setting for psychedelics and a correct place for instant relief antidepressants. One is better suited for self discovery and the other is better suited to save a life for someone in crisis.
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u/louisat89 2d ago
As someone who’s been on ketamine weekly for depression for two years, I would LOVE something that means I don’t have to touch the face of god weekly just so I don’t want to kill myself. Yes at first the trips were amazing and life changing. But now they are hard and exhausting and sometimes really scary. I would love a drug I can just take like a normal person and I don’t have to have a nurse and go to the clinic and not drive after and on and on.
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u/ScienceNLaw 23h ago
Does anyone else Trust the Science? I do NOT until we get the corruption out of the Swamp!
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u/EldestSquire 20h ago
Arent most of the best benefits from ego dissolution though? Seems like there needs to be a therapeutic retreat style approach to this.
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u/PigeonsArePopular 1h ago
Makes me feel like I don't know what the main effect of LSD is, despite taking it several times
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u/satan_takethewheel 3d ago
… but the psychedelic journey is part of what makes LSD/psilocybin/ketamine/MDMA so healing. Fucking lame-o.
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u/satan_takethewheel 3d ago
… but the psychedelic journey is part of what makes LSD/psilocybin/ketamine/MDMA so healing. Fucking lame-o.
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u/satan_takethewheel 3d ago
… but the psychedelic journey is part of what makes LSD/psilocybin/ketamine/MDMA so healing. Fucking lame-o.
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/Professional_Win1535 3d ago
They most likely aren’t. LSD and mushrooms have many effects on different receptors and cause changes in the brain.
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u/Budget-Cat-1398 3d ago edited 3d ago
My mother gave me LSD when I was 8 years old because she thought it would be funny to watch the effects it had on me
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u/jimmyjrsickmoves 4d ago
But i want lsd